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Posts posted by jijaji


    An important meaning of Kama (kaa-ma, from Sanskrit) is sensuous love, or an emotional feeling of attachment. In ancient Indian thought, it is recognized as the stimulus of action and personified as the god of erotic love (Kamadeva). In the Gita, as in Buddhism, it is the source of attachment to the world and the great impediment to spiritual freedom. For lack of a better word in English, it is better to use term "erotica" to represent Kama, although erotica may essentially connote arousal.


    Two thousand years ago, sage Vatsayana wrote his landmark manuscript, the Kamasutra (erotic codes). One thousand years later, the Chandella kings (950-1050 A.D.) built one of the finest groups of temples in India, depicting erotic positions, at their capital Khajuraho. About five centuries later, king Kallarasa of Karnataka wrote an important treatise on the subject, "Janavashya" (1450 A.D.) in Kannada language. In today's fast changing world, the values and sanctity attached to erotica and eroticism have also changed. Therefore, it has become necessary to re-evaluate the Erotic Arts of India in their true perspective.


    Numerous writers, both Indian and foreign, have published their works on eroticism, mostly to feed the curiosity of westerners.


    To appreciate the erotic arts of India, one must understand the role of sex in the scheme of things according to Hinduism. Hinduism is a way of life according to prescribed codes. Every Hindu has to undergo sixteen dignitary rituals (samskara) and four stages of life (ashramas). The final aim of life is salvation, which is the merging of the individual soul (atma) with the supreme soul (param-atma). One can attain salvation (Moksha) through Dharma, Artha and Kama (Religion, wealth and sex). The ancient Indians took a healthy, integrated view of all aspects of life and gave sex its due importance in the overall picture. The pursuit of pleasure (kama) is one of the important aims of life, on the path to deliverance.


    Figures of loving couples (mithuna) in various art forms can be found in the very early periods of Indian civilization. This theme has been depicted consistently for thousands of years throughout India. Such sculpture can be found on the shrines of Buddhist, Jain, Vaishnava, Shaiva, Shakti, and also other cults, which proves its trans-religious nature. Mithuna is like any other life process and hence no taboo or inhibitions are attached to it. The worship of genitalia has been prevalent for centuries and it is considered a part and parcel of Hindu worship


    Due to their delicate nature, only a few paintings survived the onslaught of time and climatic hazards. The Narasimha Swamy temple of Sibi has such rare wall paintings. In the last century, the kings of Mysore brought out some books of great importance, which are profusely illustrated with erotic art. Ancient books such as "Sougandhikaparinaya" and "Shritatwanidhi" contain illustrations, which are indirect and suggestive, and yet very modest. Indian miniatures such as Basholi, Kangra and Rajasthani styles have produced innumerable erotic paintings to cater to their rich clientele.


    The sculptural wealth has remained intact for centuries in spite of vandalism and mutilation by religious fanatics. The erotic sculptures of Kahjuraho (in Madhya Pradesh) and Bhubaneshwar (Orissa) have been widely publicized, while others are almost unknown. In Karnataka State alone, there are a large number of such temples and sculptures, which will be studied individually.

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  2. Originally posted by jndas:

    As a side note, it seems lately your "spiritual discussions" seem to focus mostly around using drugs and sex. I would hope that you have something a little more spiritual to contribute.


    It may be fun for you to present things simply because you know others will object to them, but thats not the purpose here. Please be a little more sincere in your posts.


    The server space has nearly reached its limit, and I'm looking for excuses to free up space.



    I'm not here simply trying to annoy people, I'm just not, I sincerely mean that.


    My plate is full in life my friend, with work, kids and a spiritual life on some level (I hope).


    Issues regarding sex, celibacy and the like are a big, I mean BIG issue in spiritual groups today. In fact more than ever.

    People are challenging old standards and morals and questioning things, because for do long people have suffered from some of the old out-worn attitudes and abuse has been rampant, some see it otherwise and they are entitled


    This is the perspective I mean to come from. I do not mean to shock in this regard but have an open conversation regarding celibacy, sex and spirituality.


    I certainly think grhasta life in Gaudiya Vaishnava society needs to be stripped of the renunciate influences from the sanyass ashram.


    Celibacy, Sexuality and it's relationship with spirituality is perhaps being focused on today more than ever before. I do not see why we cannot discuss it here.


    I myself agree pretty much with deepaks postings I posted above...


    I don't think my postings on this thread have been overtly sexual or anything...

    just talking celibacy mainly..

    pros and cons


    maybe it was the last one about animals not using jazz or candles.?? Or perhaps saying celibacy is a lie.

    I admit that was a bit different....but understand some of that is for entertainment purposes.


    As far as the Drug posts...

    just that one on pot use in India, which I thought was interesting (others did as well), maybe it got a little out there for some peoples taste (OBVIOUSLY)

    I certainly didn't mean to upset or hurt anyone by these taboo subjects...



    jndas, if ya gotta cut me loose, do what ya need to do.


    I'll miss ya.


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    [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-04-2002).]

  3. Sex for pro-creation only is on the animal level, because that is the ONLY way animals can have sex. Animals do not MAKE LOVE with candle-lite or with sexy jazz.

    In the Human species SEX can bring more meaning and warmth to life, more positive feelings for one's mate and also helps ones' self-esteem which comes about by naturally responding to the opposite sex in a natural, healthy way.

    Just watch animals having sex sometime, it is NOT fun for them it is labored work and quite unerotic.


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  4. quote:

    I also think your linking someone trying to convince someone of the value of celibacy, even if over emphasised, with the terms "sexual abuse"and "ANTI-LIFE" to be misguided.Way too emotive.It has the effect of watering down the terms.



    I don't care...the lie of celibacy has destroyed way too many lifes. I say a lie because the celibacy you see practiced by priests and monks in institutions is not natural it is part of a routine, a practice like. Real celibacy is something that happens rarely to those so overwhelmed by the divine, they lose all interest with this side!


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  5. Jagat..


    remember I said.."If someone is trying to convince you or indoctrinate you to become a celibate priest or nun you are being sexually abused."


    The stress is on someone 'TRYING' to convience you or indoctrinate you to become celibate! That I feel is abusive...now if celibacy happens to someone naturally like the dropping of a leaf, that is different. But to preach, impose, and basically put down sexuality as being unimportant and nothing but base lust is a crime against every human being on this planet!


    It is nothing less than ..




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    [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-04-2002).]

  6. The enlistment of young men and women for lives of celibacy, and the methods of indoctrination and psychological manipulation designed to achieve this end is a breach of their human rights.


    The victims are condemned to lives of sexual repression, solitary masturbation and psychological stress They are denied the comfort, both physical and psychological of (a) normal physical relationship(s) with (an)other human being(s) and the potential of raising their own children - participation in the natural generational cycle of life. As a result of this mental cruelty many of the victims themselves become a danger to others - often the children entrusted to their care.


    The celibacy of priests and nuns is nothing less than a system of institutionalised sexual abuse - normally of children and young adults, and, like physical sexual abuse, carried out by those they most feel they can trust.


    If someone is trying to convince you or indoctrinate you to become a celibate priest or nun you are being sexually abused.


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  7. Clerical Celibacy and Pedophilic Priests


    In recent years, reports of Catholic priests sexually molesting children have come to light in virtually every major U.S. city. The victims are often emotionally scarred for decades.


    There is convincing evidence that this serious and widespread problem is caused, at least in part, by the Catholic Church's clerical celibacy requirement and other overly repressive Church doctrines regarding sexuality. Thus, persons concerned about the problem of clergy abuse of children should urge Catholic leaders to reexamine and modify their teachings about sex.


    Desmond Morris' classic book on human behavior, The Naked Ape, reports that homosexual behavior is often "seen in situations where the ideal sexual object (a member of the opposite sex) is unavailable. This applies in many groups of animals."


    Morris goes on to state: "Similar situations occur with high frequency in our own species and the response is much the same. If either males or females cannot for some reason obtain sexual access to their opposite members, they will find sexual outlets in other ways."


    Likewise, psychiatrist and ex-priest A. W. Richard Sipe relates: "Doctor Lewis Hill, former medical director of Sheppard and Enoch Pratt Hospital in Towson, Maryland, used to tell his resident psychiatrists, 'Man is a loving animal, and he is going to love whatever he is near.' The sexual histories of farm boys frequently recorded passing involvements with animals."


    These findings indicate that Catholic priests, who are required by their Church to remain celibate and taught to abhor sexual relationships with women, might in some cases seek outlets for their sexuality in other activities. The behavior could include homosexuality or pedophilia.


    In fact, statements by Dr. Jay Feierman support a link between sexual repression and pedophilia. As a psychiatrist who has met with hundreds of pedophilic priests at a Catholic treatment center for abusive priests in New Mexico, Feierman is in a position to recognize the connection.


    Feierman says that celibacy is not "a natural state for humans to be in." Pointing to the celibacy requirement as part of the cause of clergy abuse of children, he explains: "If you tell a man that he's not allowed to have particular friends, he's not allowed to be affectionate, he's not allowed to be in love, he's not allowed to be a sexual being, you shouldn't be surprised at anything that happens."


    Moreover, research by the University of New Hampshire's David Finkelhor, Ph.D., supports those observations. Finkelhor, a recognized expert on the study of sexual abuse of children, has shown that repressive sexual attitudes linked to many religions may predispose some persons toward sexual activities with children.


    Dr. John Money, a leading expert on sexual violence who has pioneered treatments for deviate sexuality at Johns Hopkins Medical School, states that people raised in conditions where sex is viewed as evil, and where sexual curiosity is considered a punishable offense, are likely to end up with warped sexual identities. Those surroundings are often produced by conservative religious teachings.


    Money describes the harmful effects of such environments as follows: "In girls, often you extinguish the lust completely, so that they can never have an orgasm, and marriage becomes a dreary business where you put up with sex to serve the maternal instinct. In boys, sex gets redirected into abnormal channels." (Emphasis added.)


    Money's observations as to the different effects of repressive sexual environments on males and females may explain why pedophilia appears to be a much greater problem among priests than among nuns, who must also take a celibacy vow.


    As for males who are isolated for long periods, with restricted social outlets and limited positive sexual development, Sipe adds that "Kinsey and colleagues noted the frequency of homosexual contact 'among ranchmen, cattlemen, prospectors, lumbermen and farming groups in general.'" It is fair to say that many have found similar phenomena in prisons.


    And specifically in regard to such "situational homosexuality" among Catholic priests, Sipe asserts: "At times the situation rather than the core sexual orientation of the priest dictates his sexual choice. Many reports in this category are similar. A long-time friendship and isolation in a learning or living circumstance lead to a sexual exchange between friends. Subsequent history and development can reveal an essentially heterosexual orientation and choice."


    In view of all the above evidence, it is logical to conclude that if priests were permitted a normal outlet for their "essentially heterosexual orientation and choice," they would be less likely to seek an outlet through pedophilia.


    Also relevant is the fact that, contrary to the claims being made by some, the problem of sexual abuse by priests is not unique to modern society but has existed for centuries. In the 16th century, the founder of the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther, opposed the Catholic Church's clerical celibacy requirement, partly because of the harm it caused.


    Luther wrote of the Catholic Church's leaders: "They were completely unjustified in forbidding marriage and in burdening the priesthood with the demand of continual celibacy. In doing so they have acted like . . . tyrannical, unholy scoundrels, occasioning all sorts of terrible, ghastly, countless sins against chastity, in which they are caught to this day."


    In 1966, psychiatrists Franz Alexander and Sheldon Selesnick described a similar history concerning monasteries: "Centuries of imposed celibacy had not inhibited the erotic drives of monks or nuns, and underground passageways were known to connect some monasteries and nunneries. Townspeople often had to send prostitutes to the monasteries in order to protect the maidens of the village."


    More than four hundred years after Luther's time, Catholic priests are still caught committing sexual offenses while most Church leaders disregard possible causes of the problem and continue promoting extremely repressive and unhealthy attitudes toward sex.


    Unless the Church stops ignoring the overwhelming evidence of the evils caused by its teachings on sexuality - and modifies those teachings to be consistent with modern scientific knowledge - there will be many more victims severely damaged by sexual abuse committed by Catholic clergy.


    Henry David Thoreau stated: "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." Advocates for victims of sexual assault can strike at the root of this problem by speaking out against the Catholic Church's clerical celibacy requirement and its other harmful doctrines concerning sexuality.



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  8. Question:

    Is it true that one cannot attain enlightenment unless one is celibate? My friend was telling me that all the enlightened masters have been celibate and that with celibacy, sexual energy gets stored and without that you can’t be enlightened. Do you recommend celibacy?



    I do not generally recommend the practice of celibacy because it is not necessary for enlightenment, and for most people, it only produces strain. The goal of celibacy is to raise the ojas, the subtle essence of sexual energy, up from the base chakra to the crown chakra where the male and female energies unite and create an illuminated divine awakening. However, sexual abstinence does not guarantee that you are transmuting sexual energy into divine love. Too often I have seen the ideal of celibacy become a stalking horse for submerged judgements that sex itself is bad, and people remain intrenched in obsolete beliefs. Instead of elevating consciousness to perfect love, all you are doing is engaging in a struggle between your ideal self and your desire nature leaving you tired and frustrated.


    If one is naturally absorbed in the love of God without any thought of sex, that is wonderful, and that kind of nature is sometimes found in those rare souls who become enlightened masters. Celibacy in that case is a state of awareness, not a practice. For most of us, our natures lead us to share love through intimate relationships, and not just with God or humanity as a whole, and this path also leads to enlightenment.


    I certainly don’t advocate sexual promiscuity or indulgence, but I believe sexual pleasure is a wonderful gift from God. In the context of awakening divine love, sex is not an impediment, but rather, it can serve to raise our ojas up to the crown chakra for our enlightenment. When two people use sex to experience the divine within each other, then sex itself becomes a gateway to spiritual illumination.


    Deepak Chopra


    from chopra.com


    I pretty much agree with this attitude expressed here.



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  9. Originally posted by theist:



    That is what I hear can be done.Or that same passionate energy can be used in karma-yoga etc.also.


    You are right about jijaji's inference of baiting.He is trying to bait us into responses so we can assume the most provocative term is what was meant.


    Jagat don't play so innocent.

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    [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-03-2002).]

  10. Originally posted by shiva:

    Jijaji,what are you babbling about now?


    > I suggest looking in the mirror!



    I am against them?

    I only accept A.C.Bhaktivedanta?


    >AH HAH..we get to the Nitty Gritty so to speak!

    You sound totally close-minded, scarry!


    Wow,you are quite the editor.

    Instead of putting words in my mouth,how about you thinking through, what you write,before you write it.




    You are the one who seems to have an agenda?



    What is the reason for your fabrication?

    Is your allperfectallknowing vision disturbed?



    You sound like a young kid when you make remarks like that..are you?



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  11. Originally posted by Rati:

    What is the REAL (or unreal for that matter) issue is simply a matter of personal opinion. Nothing wrong with differences of opinion. Better to have an opposing view than none at all, I say.


    The REAL ISSUE, is when are your UFO fleets due to arrive and pick us up for our inter-galactic journey, Jijaji? Have you had any transmissions from your space alien shiksha gurus lately?

    Indeed the Mothership is dropping off a load of Salvia Divinorum later on tonight.


    The Salvia Divinorum serves as a kind of diksha transmission elixer if you will, in place of the physical presence of the Alien Adi-Guru.


    You just burn a little Diviners Sage and instantly you receive the alien diksha, pranali and all.


    They do not wear white however, grey mainly with pink bonnetts!


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  12. Shiva is against all the Babajis because they don't accept A.C. Bhaktivedanta as being the ONLY source for valid Gaudiya information or inspiration.


    debate all you want about this verse that verse blah blah blah..that is not the REAL issue here!


    cut to the chase guys!


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    [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-03-2002).]

  13. Originally posted by shiva:

    This is the nature of sastra,otherwise why give any credence to any sastra?

    hagiographies of saints from the middle ages are not considered as shastra in any school of Vedanta outside the Gaudiya school.


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  14. A New LSD?

    Mexican Herb for Sale Online Comes With Divine Claims, Warnings


    By Dean Schabner / ABC NEWS


    April 1 — A Mexican herb that no one really understands and can send users on intense, brief hallucinogenic trips is being sold over the Internet touting itself as a legal way to expand your consciousness that recalls the heyday of LSD.

    Little is known about the drug, salvia divinorum, or how it works on the brain and what its longterm effects might be. But word of its existence is spreading through e-mail chains and Web sites praising its potential, which has caught the attention of the Drug Enforcement Administration. The DEA has included it on its list of "Drugs and Chemicals of Concern" and is considering whether to add the herb to its list of controlled substances.

    Some researchers who have studied it and other hallucinogens doubt the DEA needs to worry much, and say they don't believe the herb will live up to the hype seen on some of the Web sites.


    Still, the Internet descriptions of the herb's effects, albeit more subdued, would be familiar to anyone who remembers the 1960s, when Harvard University professors Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert began proselytizing for LSD's power to help people expand their consciousness.


    Then, reports of "bad trips" and allegations that LSD use would lead to chromosome damage and widespread birth defects, which were never borne out by studies of users of the drug, helped to create a backlash against "acid" that quickly led to it being outlawed.


    Forty years later, the fate of salvia divinorum, is still in the doubt. And there are many differences between it, LSD and the cultures that surround both. LSD was manmade and new, while salvia, a perennial in the mint family that is native to parts of Oaxaca, Mexico, has been used by Indians there for centuries as a healing and divining tool.


    And unlike the champions of LSD in the 1960s, those running the Web sites offering salvia divinorum are not portraying the herb as a wonder drug without any potential problems for users.


    Also, while Leary and Alpert spread their words far and wide, those offering salvia divinorum for sale, and even some researching it, are reluctant to draw widespread attention to the herb. They say on the one hand that publicity might attract users looking for a new "recreational drug," which they emphasize salvia divinorum is not, and on the other that it could prompt the DEA to take action against it without a full review of the case.


    One site posts an extensive list of academic articles discussing the herb's use by Indians in Mexico and how it works chemically on the brain. Among the articles is Salvinorin A: Notes of Caution by Daniel J. Siebert, the ethnobotanist who runs the site.


    "Salvinorin A (the major active principal of the plant Salvia divinorum) is an extremely powerful consciousness altering compound," the article begins. "In fact, it is the most potent naturally occurring hallucinogen thus far isolated. But before would-be experimenters get too worked-up about it, it should be made clear that the effects are often extremely unnerving and there is a very real potential for physical danger with its use."


    Siebert did not respond to requests to be interviewed, but much of the information given on the site was confirmed by other researchers.


    What Does It Do?


    Smoking or chewing the leaves of the plant sends the user on a trip that according to accounts posted on various sites can be even more intense than the LSD experience, but unlike an LSD trip, which can last six hours or more, the Mexican herb's effects usually last less than an hour, with a peak of only 20 minutes or less.


    One woman who has experimented with the herb told ABCNEWS that she lost touch with her surroundings for only a few minutes, but during the experience it seemed much longer, and she found it difficult to describe everything she saw, heard and felt.


    "At first I was able to tell myself, 'This is the drug,'" she said. "Then it didn't seem to matter so much what it was that was doing it, I just let it all come. I think there were moments when I was scared to death, but something kept comforting me."


    The greatest danger, according to Siebert's article, comes when too much of the active ingredient gets into the user's system too quickly.


    Dr. John Halpern, a psychiatrist with McLean Hospital, a teaching hospital affiliated with Harvard University, said there are other dangers with salvia divinorum, but they are dangers associated with other hallucinogens and with alcohol when they are used by people in their late teens and early 20s, when the brain is still maturing. These substances can aggravate tendencies towards schizophrenia, said Halpern, who has received a career development award from the National Institute on Drug Abuse.


    The enthusiasm over LSD included hopes that the drug could be a valuable tool for psychotherapy, and similar claims are made in some of the literature about salvia divinorum, but the caution and detailed recommendations regarding dosage and preparing the proper atmosphere are a marked difference from the era of "acid tests."


    "If you choose to pursue a relationship with this plant please treat it with respect and care," Siebert's article says. "Perhaps if people can use the plant safely and responsibly it will be able to grow and thrive freely into the future."


    ‘Nobody Has a Clue’


    Perhaps the biggest question about the drug is how it works.


    "Nobody has a clue," said Purdue University professor of medicinal chemistry and molecular pharmacology David Nichols, who has studied the effects of hallucinogens on the brain for 20 years. Nichols is among the scientists who has given information about the drug to the DEA.


    He said attempts to discover which part of the brain the drug works on have thus far been unsuccessful. When tests involving the most common brain receptors were performed, the active ingredient in the herb, Salvinorum A, did not seem to bind to any of them.


    When asked about potential dangers, he said thus far none have been identified, other than the potential for an unpleasant experience with the herb, which he said has more of a "disorienting" effect than other hallucinogens.


    "We haven't really heard of any adverse reactions," he said. "Like LSD, when the dose is so small, unless it's a toxin it really can't damage most of your organ systems."


    Dr. Edward Boyer, an assistant professor of emergency medicine and the director of the toxicology fellowship training program at the University of Massachusetts, said that over the last three years he has seen no cases of people suffering any toxic effect from salvia statewide in Massachusetts.


    He warned, though, that there could be health concerns if it were taken along with antidepressants — a combination he said could cause hypertension, high blood pressure or strokes.


    And there is always the danger of "merging," when a person using the drug feels the need to merge with another object.


    "You may try to merge with an open window and fall out," he said.


    Legal Issues


    A DEA spokeswoman said the administration does not comment on the specifics of its consideration of substances while they are under review. At the Food and Drug Administration, which also must review a substance before it is put on the controlled substances list, two spokeswomen said they had no record of any study being under way.


    The DEA Diversion Control Program has included salvia divinorum on its list of Drugs and Chemicals of Concern, and in a statement about the herb compares the active ingredient it contains to that in absinthe and to THC, which is found in marijuana.


    "There has been a growing interest among young adults and adolescents to re-discover ethnobotanical plants that can induce changes in perception, hallucinations or other psychologically-inducing changes," the statement said. "Since Salvia Divinorum is not specifically listed in the Controlled Substances Act, many on-line botanical companies and drug promotional sites have advertised Salvia as a legal alternative to other plant hallucinogens like mescaline."


    Richard Glen Boire, an attorney with the Center for Cognitive Liberty and Ethics, said salvia divinorum "does not meet the criteria" to be a Schedule 1 substance. "It does not have the abuse potential that other drugs that are on the DEA's list of controlled substances," he said.

    The group submitted a report to the DEA in October to make the case to keep salvia divinorum legal, which included a survey of hospital emergency room data from across the country which found no record of anyone requiring treatment from using the herb.


    Spokesmen at the Center for Substance Abuse Research and the Community Epidemeology Work Group, two drug abuse watchdog groups, said concerns about the herb have not been raised with their organizations.


    Ethan Russo, a clinical neurologist and expert on psychotropic drugs who has studied the herb, said there is no evidence that salvia divinorum causes any damage to the brain and he does not want to see it outlawed, saying that could inhibit study of the drug.


    "I can say that there is no inherent danger to salvia divinorum except that some people are going to scare themselves and it's possible for someone to walk off and get hurt by something like falling down a flight of stairs, so somebody should always be close by," he said.


    "I see no reason for this to be rendered illegal," he continued. "It's not going to help anything. In a perverse way, if it were rendered illegal it might make it more attractive to some people. … There is a long list of substances on the DEA list and they haven't been eradicated."


    Halpern, who emphasized that he is not a drug advocate, said he doesn't believe that making salvia divinorum illegal is necessary, though he also said there is no reason for anyone to fear that DEA scheduling would interfere with academic research.


    "If it is scheduled, I don't think it's going to change anything," he said. "It doesn't seem like there's going to be that many repeat users."


    Chemical Questions


    There are still more questions than answers about salvia divinorum. According to researchers, salvia divinorum acts on the brain in a way that has not been seen before, and for that reason it deserves more study.


    Like the peyote cactus, which contains mescaline, and psyllocibin mushrooms, salvia divinorum has long been used by American Indians as a tool for divine visions as part of religious practices. But it is different because the hallucinations it creates are not dependent on the physical environment around the person using the drug.


    Whereas a person on an LSD trip or eating peyote might see patterns or ripples appear in the walls around them — their perception is altered — someone who has used salvia divinorum truly hallucinates — he sees and hears things that are not there.


    Work done so far has determined that salvia operates on a receptor system in the brain that was previously unknown, and the study of the aspects of consciousness controlled by that area could lead to advances in both medicine and psychology, Russo said, pointing to the gains made through the studies of how opiates and cannabis affect the brain.


    A Religious History


    Ethnobiologists and anthropologists have been aware of salvia divinorum since at least the early 1960s, when R. Gordon Wasson wrote an article published by Harvard University's Botanical Museum, entitled, A New Mexican Psychotropic Drug from the Mint Family.


    Though there are accounts of the use of psychotropic plants by the Indians of Central America dating back to the time of the Spanish conquest in the 16th century, and as early as the 1930s anthropologists recorded that the Mazatecs were using leaves to produce a tea for divination, it was not until Wasson's expeditions in 1950s and early 1960s that salvia was identified.


    The article recounted Wasson's exploration of the remote mountainous regions of Oaxaca, where the Mazatec Indians live. He said the Mazatec used salvia divinorum in their religious practices "as a less desirable substitute" when the psychotropic mushrooms they prefer were not available.


    According to Wasson, the Mazatec often used the herb, which they called hojas de la Pastora or hojas de Maria Pastora, as a curing or divining tool — to determine what illness a person might be suffering from or to learn the facts of a crime that might have been committed against him. In those ceremonies, though, it was usually the shaman alone who took the herb, not the patient.


    An article by Leander J. Valdes III, Jose Luis Diaz and Ara G. Paul published in 1982 in The Journal of Ethnopharmacology, "Ethnopharmacology of ska Maria Pastora" provided more detail, recounting several ceremonies in which the herb was used.


    According Halpern, the herb's potential is also being explored by a group of religious people in the United States who are "finding it is useful in their practice." He said he preferred no to identify the group other than to say they are "middle-class, responsible people."


    Controlling Consciousness


    While accounts of experiences on the drug range from blissful, to mystically illuminating to terrifying, the issue that concerns the DEA should be public health issues, not people's experiments with their consciousness, supporters of the drug's legal status say.


    "We see this as the government confusing its own rules with respect to drugs," Boire said. "Yes, they have a responsibility with respect to public health, but they're confusing that with a responsibility to prevent people from altering their consciousness."


    The question, he said, is deeper than the right to free speech — it is the right to control your own consciousness. The small number of people experimenting with salvia divinorum, and the even smaller number who want to repeat the experience, together with the lack of evidence indicating health risks make it clear that the herb is not a public health problem, he said.


    "There needs to be a lot of thinking about whether doing something like this really does any good," he said. "If salvia divinorum is made illegal, to some people it's going to become more attractive. We worry about the knee-jerk reaction when we hear about people altering their consciousness and we think, 'What can we do about it?'"


    An Oregon man who tried salvia divinorum said when he was younger he tried other hallucinogens such as peyote and psylocybin several times but didn't expect to repeat the Mexican herb.


    "Nothing I had done prepared me for it — I mean I thought I knew what these things did to you," he said. "I found it valuable, I felt like it re-opened some things that maybe had started to close up in me, but I don't think I want to go back."


    "I can't preclude there's something special about salvia divinorum because of the shaman connection," Halpern said. "It's a tool that's remained in the shaman's bag and that's probably where it should stay."


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    [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-03-2002).]

  15. Originally posted by Rati:

    As far as not being able to see the truth, Jagat's qualifications far outweight your own, no doubt. B]

    I think you need to re-word this shamanji....


    btw..you ever sneak up close to those cows for a direct hit..?


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    [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-03-2002).]

  16. Shiva...


    Get off this Bandwagon of trying to defeat all outside Gaudiya Math & Iskcon, your simply wasting your time.


    And as far as taking Jagatji to task..

    Your simply wasting your time..


    It could lead to Salvia Divinorum smoking Posted Image


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  17. Celibacy blocks sexual energy. Blocked energy does not know rules, customs, laws and beleifs. Energy must flow and it will find a way to flow. We either let energy flow the easy way, or it will find a way out the hard way. And so people who are celibating for long are just getting crazy and express (release) their blocked energy in wacky ways.


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    ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

    ¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

    ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji

    -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

  18. Just Sit Silently with Closed Eyes

    Meditation for Busy People:


    Whenever you have time,just sit silently with closed eyes.


    It will help. It will help you to be more at ease with yourself.


    People have forgotten how to close their eyes because they have forgotten how to go inwards.


    Our whole interest is outside.


    It is really a wonder how people manage to sleep with closed eyes! Sooner or later they will start sleeping with open eyes... and they will have their glasses on!


    Our eyes have become very fixed on the outside... almost paralyzed. They cannot move inwards, and that is the most essential thing in life to learn, because we go on missing our real treasure.


    In the east that real treasure is called, dharma. We don't call the church religion, we don't call ritual religion; we call the inner experience of one's being religion.


    This meditation for busy people is extremely simple and can be done anywhere, anytime, and by anyone.

    It is simply this: Whenever you have time, just sit silently with closed eyes.


    'sitting sliently doing nothing the springtime comes and the grass grows by itself'



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  19. Yea I'll add something...


    I do not think for a micro-second that Jesus was implying or suggesting anything at all regarding siddha-pranali in those statements you presented above.

    A far stretch of the imagination...and nothing else!


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    [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-02-2002).]

  20. raga:

    At any rate, I have no need or interest in participating in discussions where people misunderstand my postings because they think they know the real, actual and perhaps the only meaning of "ego", "spirituality" etc. and then inconsiderately blast me into the basket for things I never intended. It hurts me.



    Raga, I am sorry if I hurt you in any way..that is not my intention here. I feel misunderstood by you as well but take it in stride, you should try the same.

    I will be the first to tell you that sometimes my words can burn ...


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  21. raga...


    I said...


    "if you have not learned how to love and respect others outside your camp...

    your a 'dime a dozen' religious fanatic like any 'Bible Thumpin, Salivating Street Corner Preacher' even if you think your diksha has connected you to 'Ocean of Prem' itself."



    That is 'IF' you have not learned how to love and respect..


    when you quoted me saying this you left out that preface, you know you did...


    litte dirty pool eh?


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    [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-03-2002).]

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