jijaji

Satyaji, Could you give some details as to what occured during this schism? Who was involved and what was said? ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-20-2001).]

I only have them in book form...and my typing is excessive as it is (along with slow). But I will see if I can post something here in the next week or so! I need a scanner! When jijaji get's one ..Watch Out!! ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-20-2001).]

How come when there are any questions regarding siddhanta, this guy always brings up this "Nitai is a snake" .. ? I'm not even sure that Nitai is that concerned with the Ramananda Samvada controversey in Chaitanya Charitamrtam. His leaving Iskcon was based more on the Sampradaya issue. He was re-initiated into Gaudiya Vaishnavism and continues his faith, although different from the missionary offshoots of Gaudiya Math/Iskcon. To yell out "Nitais is a snake" every time someone disagrees is not only an incorrect response to the Ramanad Samvada issue, but shows some real lack of knowledge of the historical issues within the Gaudiya Vaishnava religion that have existed for hundreds of years. Now some say we have no right to question these issues, but why? These questions regarding Chaitanya Charitamrta have been questioned by Gaudiyas for hundreds of years and just because some western followers are unaware of these issues within their religion doesn't mean that we who are aware should not inquire. To those unaware of these issues and others who prefer to not question anything about the faith...to you I say ..Good Luck! We are all not so inclined to accept without questioning and investigating for ourselves..thank you very much! Pretty much every religion allows and encourages investigative inquiry into the history of it's origins. Why that is so condemmed here is a puzzle...? ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-20-2001).]

oh sure..... You act like questioning this part of Chaitanya Charitamrta is dumb or something. For your information and anyone else's who does NOT know.... Ramanand Samvada section of Chaitanya Charitmaram is the MOST studied and controversial section of Krishnadas's work and these very same questions I have brought have been brought up for 100's of years by many a learned Gaudiya Scholar not dummies like jnds seems to imply. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-19-2001).]

**How can any one Religion think their holy books are gonna guide humamity for the next 10,000 years and just be accepted without some kind of investigation from that humanity! sure.... Please tell us your responce to the Govinda-lilamrta verses inserted that were not yet written by Krishnadas himself..? ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-19-2001).]

OH I forgot... Krishnadas also inserts a famous Brahma-Samhita verse into the conversations between Sri Chaitanya & Ramananda..... Which had not even been discovered yet by Sri Chaitanya...! ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-19-2001).]

It must be remembered that Chaitanya Charitamrta of Krishnadas is not a Carita, but a Charitamrta, written more from the devotional than from the historical point of view. It also must be remembered that it was written nearly 100 years after the passing of Sri Chaitanya, completed in the year 1537 saka or 1615 A.D.. And yes it was written as a means to bridge (if you will) the two schools of Gaudiya Vaishnavism that had existed up to that time. The Navadvipa circle was represented by the works of Murari Gupta, Kavikarnapura, Locana Das and Jayananda, as well as the composers of Padas on Sri Chaitanya and of course Vrndavana Das. They had their own theology which was somewhat different from that of the Vrndanava Gosvamis and Krishnadas. The works of the Gosvamis and the Navadivpa devotees were, however, composed at about the same time, although the Navadvipa tradition probably originated earlier than the other. If Vrndavana Das's inspiration came chiefly from the orthodox circle of Navadvipa, Krishnadas's inspiration came from the scholistic Gosvamis of Vrndanava and EACH in his own way throws intertesting light on different aspects on Gaudiya Vaishnavism. The two works of Vrndavana Das and Krishnadasa, therefore, are in a sense complementary to each other as representing two distinct traditions within the Gaudiya Vaishnava faith. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-18-2001).]

valayaji, Do you know anything about Chandidas or Vidyapati? Their songs were of course listened to by Sri Chaitanya in Puri during his later love-intoxicated divyonmada period (divine madness) ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-18-2001).]

Like the Chaitanya Bhagavat, the Chaitanya Charitamrta was written with a motive. The Gosvamis of Vrndanava, the seat of the exploits of Krishna, could not accept the theory of Krishna's manifestation at Navadivpa. They attached more importance to the worship of Krishna and Radha than to the worship of Krishna and Balaram. Lastly, they could not reconcile themselves to the idea that Krishna appeared as Chaitanya who was called Gauranga for his fair complexion. Futher, according to the Navadivpa school, the worship of Chaitanya is the end in itself; while the Gosvamis preached that such a worship is the means to an end, which is the worship of Radha and Krishna. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-17-2001).]

Sri Chaitanya listened to Chandidas's songs with great devotion and feelings! ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-17-2001).]

THIS IS GREAT STUFF...!

quotes from Vaishnava Faith & Movement.. S.K. De; quote: The theology that is attributed to Him (Sri Chaitanya) by Krishnadas is clearly the theology of a later day, in which Krishnadas himself was severly trained. This is, however, not the impression given by Murari-gupta. Vrndavana-das and other biographiers of the Navadvipa circle, who avoid the exaggerated scholastic colouring and enlarge more upon Chaitanya's ecstatic devotion and power of working miracles. It must not also be forgotten that the significance of Chaitany's teaching lies not so much in his special interpretation of this or that text, but in the reality and force of his inner spiritual experience, which gave him an extraordonary power over the minds of men. Quote; (after he gave up his Tol) The scholarly pursuits of a Pandit, the pride of learning, the zest for dialectic disputations - all passed out of his (Sri Chaitanya's)life, which now began to move in a new atmosphere of entirely different interests,. Outside the Srimad Bhagavata, the newly discovered Brahma-samhita, the Samgita-nataka of Ramananda, and the devotional lyrics of Lilasuka, Jayadeva, Vidyapati and Chandidasa, he appears to have relished next to nothing. It is misdirected zeal which invests him with the false glory of scholastic eminence; His true greatness lies in other directions, and his power over men came from other sources. qoute: It is indeed difficult to say how much of the elaborate theologising, which is piously put in his mouth, was actually uttered by him; for his reported utterances are in fact faithful summaries of the highly scholastic texts of the Vrndavana Gosvamis themselves, who, as leisured recluses, could devote their keenly trained minds to the construction of elaborate system. In chapter after chapter of the Chaitanya Charitamra of Krishna Das, Chaitanya is credited with stupendous sastric learning, highly philosophical discources, great scholastic ingenuity, marvels of interpretation in expoundimg finely finished theological and rhetorical systems of Bhakti; but the general impression, given by the orthodox accounts themselves, of Chaitanya's life of continous and absorbing devotional ectasies, as well as his own disclaimer (explained as the result of his humility) of all such pretensions, certainly throw considerable doubt upon his personal responsability in such scholastic pursuits. quote: The scholary and theologically minded Krishnadas kaviraja loves to depict Chaitanya as a scholar and founder of a school of theology, devotes a long and learned chapter of his biography to the detailed description of a systematic scholistic discourse between Ramananda and Chaitanya, lasting ten days and nights, on the whole theme of Bhakti. In the course of the conference the interlocutors quote and discuss, with the evident relish and precision of trained theologians, texts from the works of Rupa, Sanatana anf Jiva, and even from Krishnadas's own Govinda-lilamrta, all of which had not been yet written! ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-16-2001).]

Ummm... the 'lead' role? cakora Which sects does cakora belong to.? Ummm...the 'Vaishnava' sect? ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-16-2001).]

Birbhum district is the traditional birthplace of the great Vaishnava poet Chandidas. The village is about 24 miles east of Suri and 9 miles from Bolpur. Chandidas was a famous lyric poet of the 14th century and his devotional padavalis are well known throughout Bengal and beyond. Their popularity is so great that many later poets of inferior merit have not hesitated to compose lyrics following the style of Chandidas and have tried to pass them as the handy-work of the great Master. Mr.R.C.Dutt, I.C.S., one of the well-known scholar administrators in India mentions the following traditions regarding the life of Chandidas: "The traditions current about the life of Chandidas give us some clue to the nature of the rivalry which has ever existed in Bengal between the Vaishnava and Sakta creeds. It is said that in his early youth, Chandidas worshipped an image of Sakti, which was called Bishalakshmi, and the poet often addresses the goddess in his works. As may well be imagined, the conversion of Chandidas to Vaishnavism has given rise to many tales. It is said that, on a certain day, he saw a beautiful flower floating on the river, where he had gone to bathe. He took it up and went to worship Bisha- lakshmi. The goddess appeared in person, and asked for the flower that she might place it on her head. The worshipper was awe- struck, and enquired what strange virtue the flower could possess, so as to induce the goddess to appear in person, and to wish to keep it on her head, instead of allowing the poet to place it at her feet. The goddess replied: "Foolish child, my master has been worshipped with the flower; it is not fit for my feet; let me hold it on my head.And who may thy Master be?" enquired the poet. "Krishna," was the reply;and from that day the poetexchanged the worship of the goddess for that of Krishna. It is scarcely necessary to and that later Vaishnava writers have taken advantage of Chandidas's conversion to prove the superiority of their 'deity, and haveinvented this fable. One thing, however, is plain, namely, that the rivalry between the two creeds has prevailed in Bengal, as else where in India, from remote times. "Chandidas has immortalized the washer woman Rami in his poems, and numerous are the stories told about their loves. The poet was informed that he could not performsadhan till he had a faircompanion, not by marriage, for money, but one to whom his heart would be spontaneously drawn at the first sight. Our poet went out in search of washer woman was washing clothes on the river side, the poet saw her and was fascinated. Day after day he would go to the riverside, with a fishing rod as a pretext and sit there, gazing on the woman. Words followed and love ensued, and the poet left his home and parents, and ever afterwards lived with Rami, a washerwoman as she was by caste. Chandidas was a renowed singer. One day, it is said, he went to a neighboring village Matipur to sing with his paramour; and when they were returning, the house in which they had taken shelter fell down, and they were both crushed and died in each other's arms. The story has perhaps little foundation in fact."4 The passage of time has added more importance to the temple of Bishalakshmi at Nannur. Although there are rival theories as to the birth place of Chandidas and the most formidable of them is that he was born at village Chatna in Bankura district it is now commonly accepted that Nannur village in Birbhum district has that unique honor. Poets of those days frequently used a bhanita (a line) at the end of their verses in which they mentioned their names There are a number of lyrics with the bhanita of Dina Chandidas, Baru Chandi- das and Dwija Chandidas. It is these different Bhanitas that have started the rival theories. Baru Chandidas, the author of Srikrishna Kirtan is commonly taken to be a man of Chatna.There is a vast difference both in language and inthoughts between the sweet soul-stirring padavalis of Chandidas depicting the lovebetween Lord Krishna and Radha and the recitals of Srikrishna Kirtan has not been able to capture the heart of Bengal. There may have been another author of the name of Chandidas who had composed Srikrishna Kirtan. Another theory is that the poet shifted from Chatna to Nannur and Srikrishna Kirtan was his earlier composition. The site at Nannur where there is a temple of Bansuli or Bishalakshmi is like a stupa (mound). Peculiarly enough, this mound has not been protected under the Monuments Act nor have there been any planned and extensive excavations. The Calcutta University had done some excavations and some find was obtained.5 The circumference of the mound is about 550 feet and the height is about 17 feet. The small excavation that has been done suggests that there are five occupational levels within the mound and the lowest level is of the age of the Guptas. Gold coins of Gupta age besides earthen vessels, terracotta’s etc., have been found at other places in the village Nannur. The finds suggest that there was a high level of civilization and culture in this area even fifteen hundred years before. The later Pala period saw a full development of Vaishnavism. Chandidas was born when the high incidence of Vaishnavism was as its peak. It is in this area that another immortal bard Jayadeva composed Geet Govinda. The advent of Chandidas towards what may be loosely described as the end of the Hindu age and the beginning of the Muslim age has a special significance. Chandidas was a tantrik and belonged to the Sahajiya cult of Tantricism but he had been inspired to write and sing lyrics which are marked by the stamp of universal appeal and which transcended the limits of any particular cult. The padavalis of Chandidas have inspired the later poets and philosophers of Bengal. It may be mentioned that Rabindra Nath Tagore was very much influenced by Chandidas. Bansuli Devi is one of the Mahavidyas according to the tantras. The image that is worshipped as Bansuli or Bishalakshmi Devi at Nannur is really a Bagiswari image. Bagiswari and Saraswati are other Mahavidyas according to the tantras. Birbhum district is full of scattered images of Kali, Bhadra Kali and Chandi images.Chandidas being born and brought up at Nannur, which was a centre for the Sahajiya cult, became eclectic and came to be an ardent worshipper ofBishalakshmi Devi. Pilgrims who visit Kenduvilva village and purify themselves by seeing the temple hallowed with the memory of Jayadeva also visit Nannur to hear the recitals of the padavalis of Chandidas.Chandidas was a landmark not only for his lyrical poetry but also for his contribution to Vaishnavism by his songs based on Parakiya Rasa. It is necessary to describe briefly what this is. Parakiya Rasa has been described to form the essence of Vaishnava theology. Parakiya Rasa is also akin to the Sahajiya cult, which means the romantic worship of a woman other than one's own wife. In the words of Dr.D.C.Sen: "When Buddhism declined in India, and Hinduism had not yet risen on her horizon in the full- ness of its glorious revival, when the idea of a higher life inspired by a keen sense of mortality and introspection, which was dominant spirit of Buddhism, declined into scepticism and sensually, and when devotion an absolute trust in God, which characterized the Pauranci Hinduism, was yet unknown, in the twilight of the transition- period, mystic rituals of Tantricism ruled Buddishtic and Hindus communities all over India. The Bamachari Tantriks perpetrated wanton crimes in the name of religion, and the vast literature they have left us lays down codes for those initiated in the creed, which totally upset the moral fabric of society. The Sahajiya-cult owed its origin to the Bamachari Buddhists. A process of rituals in which young and beautiful women were required to be loved and worshipped sought for salvation. In sexual love there is surely a higher side which points to love divine. The Sahajiya-cult was originally based upon this idea."6 The Sahajiya creed of Vaishnavism had its great exponent in Chandidas. Chandidas himself in a poem had mentioned: "Every one speaks of Sahajiya--but alas! Who knows its real meaning? One who has crossed the region of darkness (passions) can alone have the light of Sahajiya." According to Chandidas the object of Parakiya love must remain chaste and she must sacrifice herself entirely to love but not to any desire. She should be prepared to plunge herself headlong into a sea of abuse but should be quite indifferent both to pleasure and pain. The poet himself knew that he was playing with fire. To indulge freely in love and at the same time to guard her against sexual vice is difficult of attainment. In a poem he mentions: "To be a true lover, one must be able to make a frog dance in the mouth of a snake" (which means the lover, while playing with dangerous passion, nay, while apparently running even to the very mouth of destruction, must posses the self- control to return unhurt). "This love may be attained by one who can suspend the highest peak of Mount Sumeru in the air with a thread, or bind an elephant with a gossamer."7 Chandidas is one the great exponents of Parakiya Rasa and Sahajiya cult which through his poems and through his love for a washerwoman, Rami, extolled that it was not in an ordinary man's power to control the surging passions of love and remain pure; but he expounds that salvation through this type of love may be attained. The theme of Chandidas is well expressed in the following translation of a famous lyric of his: - "O my love! I have taken refuge at any feet, knowing they have a cooling effect (on my burning heart). I adore your beauty beaming with holy maidenhood, which inspires no carnal desire. When I do not see you, my mind becomes restless; and as I see you, my heart is soothed. O Washerwoman, my lady, you are to me what parents are too helpless children. The three prayers that a Brahman offers daily to his God, I offer to you. You are to me as holy as Gayatri from which the Vedas originated. I know you to be the goddess Saraswati who inspires songs. I know you to be the goddess Parvati, the goddess of the mountains.You are the garland of my neck, myheaven and earth, my nether worlds, nay, my whole universe! You are the star of my eyes. With out you all is dark to me. My eyes are soothed when I see you. The day I do not see your moon-like face, I remain like a dead man. I cannot, for a moment, forget your grace and beauty. O, tell me how I may deserve your favor! You are my sacred hymns and the essence of my prayers. My love for your maidenly beauty has not any element of physical desire in it. Says Chandidas, the love of the washerwoman is pure gold tested by touch-stone."8 It was, indeed, extremely difficult for the common man to follow Chandidas when he says: "Reduce your body to dry log (i.e., make it such as to be quite unmoved by passions). He that pervades the universe, unseen by all, is approachable only by him who knows the secret of pure love"9 This is why Chandidas is often misunderstood. This form of idealism-- apparently lawless and unhallowed, rapidly attained a highly spiritual form in Bengal while at the same time brought havoc by moral ruination to many. Vaishnavism in Bengal scholastically adopted Parakiya as asymbol for the representation of the Divine love. What else could be the love of Radha, the princess, the daughter of king Brisa Bhanu and wife of Ayan Ghosh to fall in unfathom- able love with Krishna, a mere shepherd boy? A true Vaishnava interprets Radha with the human soul and Krishna as the incarnation of the love of God. Chandidas was known as 'Pagla Chandi' or a mad Chandi. Here the word 'Pagla' could be said to be akin to the Persian word Diwana, a love-intoxicated lunatic. Chandi- das often addressed his beloved Rami, a washerwoman as mother and the society ex-communicated him and dismissed him from the priesthood of the temple of Bansuli. According to legend, Nakula, the brother of Chandi influenced him to stand a Prayaschitta (atonement) and a feast to the society. When the feast was going on, Rami, the love-lorn washerwoman heard of it and rushed.She gazed at Chandidas and tears welled out in a stream from her eyes; in a moment Chandidas forgot what he was doing and he approached Rami just as a devout priest approaches the image of deity he worships. It is said that some of the enlightened Brahmins saw the four arms of the Divine mother of the Universe shooting out in the washerwoman. In one of his later poems Chandidas openly addressed Rami as "Gayatri, the mother of the Vedas". The temple at Nannur is of special appeal to the Vaishnava world and to all lovers of music and poetry. Chandidas does not omit to depict any phase of human sentiment. His love poems fall under the classification usual to the Vaishnava love poems: Purva Raga or dawn of love; Dutya or a message of love; Abhisara or a secret love-tryst; Sambhoga milan or the meeting of the lover; Mathura or the final separation and Bhavas- Sammelana or a union in spirit. The final imagination and devotion of the poet weaves out various plots by which Radha meets Krishna and it is only a lover that can describe the pangs of love as have been adopted with slight changes as devotional songs and are sung in the churches in the Brahmo Samaj of Bengal during Divine Service. Devotees all over Bengal sings his songs in ecstasy of devotion. much of this is from; History of Bengali Language and Literature by Dr. Dinesh Chandra Sen [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-15-2001).]

Well ...a Gaudiya might see it like that, whereas a Catholic may see it very different, a Shaivite as well. ------------------ ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

Well I'm not so sure the word to use is bone fide? Perhaps aparusheya! But yes Sri Chaitanyas biographies differ widely and the stories seem to have been imbellished as time went on. Murari gupta's work was the 1st one to record actual WITNESSED events in Sri Chaitnaya's life. Many of those very same events recorded by Murari were embellished and exaggerated by Sri Chaitanya's later biographers. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-14-2001).]

Many of the newer sects that sprang up all over in India in the middle ages have sought to have there Saints verified by the Vedas, Vedangas, Puranas etc.. I saw on-line the other day an incrediblely long list of prophecies and quotes from the Vedas etc. about how Guru Nanak will appear in the age of Kali to save the Fallen and give out the true dharma for this age. Likewise in the Tantric scriptures the tantric sadhana is described as being specifically meant for the Kali yuga as men and women of this age are to fallen to follow the path laid out in the Vedic scriptures. In fact the Tantra brings a new gayatri mantra for the Kali-yuga which all can chant..no restrictions of sex or caste. The Vedic gayatri according to Tantra is not meant for this Kali-yug... So my point being..'EVERYONE TOOTS THEIR OWN HORN ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-13-2001).]

So you mean that Jayanandas 'Chaitanya Mangala' wasn't the only biography that exaggerated somewhat? I'm shocked! ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-13-2001).]

The Saint of Nadia.... ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-12-2001).]

Understood..however it must be noted that each Matha that was established by Adi-Shankara has it's own Mahavakya associated with it.. The Gaudiya's even go as far to say that Sri Chaitanya wispered a mantra that he received in a dream to Keshava Bharati before diksha asking him to initiate with the dream mantra. But then later we see, as Satyaji pointed out, some of his other Gaudiya biographers saying that he in fact accepted a Shankarite Mahavakya.... The passing of Sri Chaitanya is another mystery which I will be starting a thread on this week and hope to see your participation Satyji.. ¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- Tat Tvam Asi -:¦:- ((¸¸.·´* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-12-2001).]

* [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-12-2001).]