sevabhakta

Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam

4.28.54, purport)

This is the part that lends most to contradiction.

I remember reading that for a Jiva existing in the impersonal brahmajyoti, only the sat and chit features of the Lord are experienced. That only when a mood of service develops do they taste ananda, or bliss.

It can be properly interpreted that the Lord is pleased by any Jiva who chooses a transcendental path, either brahman effulgence vadis, or paramatmavadis, and thus from the Lord's point of view, they are beginning to serve his pleasure.

But Srila Prabhupada adds that not only is the living entity REMAINING engaged in the SERVICE of the Lord, but that the living entity is BLISSFUL doing so.

Perhaps there is always a fraction of the bliss potency imbuing the perception of the lower transcendentalists, in the same way that there is always a fraction of ignorance in one in the mode of goodness, or vica versa.

If so, that would be the techinical reason that purport from the 28TH Chapter of the 4th Canto fits nicely and ultimately does not contradict the siddhantic conclusion that Guruvani just posted, which came later in sequence from the 30th Chapter of the same 4th canto.

Hare Krsna

Thanks for the info. Yes, meddling in the local temple affairs by the GBCs is a big problem everywhere.

 

Out on the streets at 60? Yikes! I really feel for BB... The message it sends to all temple devotees? They will squeeze you out like a lemon, and when there is no more juice left you will be tossed out like a piece of garbage....

 

aaaah... the compassion of a Vaishnava...

 

no Safe Harbor program for Iskcon sailors, thats for sure, unless you manage to become a guru or at least a sannyasi..

I hardly consider a person who has managed to become officially "recognized" and thus condoned, to be a Guru or Sanyassin, in present day "official" Iskcon, to be in a safe harbor.

Actually that person has yet to realize that they are taking in half the sea through the hole in the bow of their Titanic ego, which began just after they bumped into Maya's little iceberg called Guru aparadha.

If anyone gives a fig what my opinion is, there it is.

Buyer beware.

Hare Krsna

Kulapavana said.

"There is no agreement among the devotees what that "perfect system" really is, yet we cannot change it to make it work better?"

My reply:

If there is a system, there are functional aspects which may be identified and named using categorical analysis.

The Founder-Acarya devised the system with each cumulative instruction he gave to his leaders regarding policy and procedure.

If his men struggled to act under a policy guideline, he had two choices.

1. Keep the policy and wait for their free will to choose to obey.

2. Change the policy to a lower standard, and see what happens.

In either case, it is the disciples responsibility, in a secretarial manner, to mark the policies as they emerge. And to note the changes as well.

Each and every policy Srila Prabhupada initiated happened as an individual event, and was recorded and remembered by someone.

At the end of a certain period of time, he told his disciples he had given them everything they needed to make advancement to Krsna Prema, and is documented forbidding any changes.

So, a logical person would agree that Srila Prabhupada's stated policies, in their original form or most recent form of ammendment by his own self, are what comprise the system.

Whether his system will be considered "perfect" enough to follow will be a subjective decision based upon one's faith in the descent of grace from an acarya, or based upon one's application of a materially critical eye upon the shoddy execution of the men Krsna sent to his acarya.

I highly advise the former.

So one may do the research and find those who know and carry the legacy of Srila Prabhupada's desire for management of his Iskcon Sankirtana movement, and then become an authority on what the exact parts of that system entail.

Without doing that much, any claims to authority or even capability to "modify" (change) the system is laughable, and I will be the first to laugh, because that person cannot even properly identify the system they claim to want to change.

It simply boils down to another case of someone who lacks the stuff to start their own movement and thus concocts illogical excuses to use some or all of Iskcon's physical or intellectual property/notoriety/manpower as a foundation to apply their well intentioned but mundanely specualtive ideas of how to manage, all under the illusory aegis of change, when the reality is they don't even know what they are changing.

Back to the drawing board Guru Kula.

Hare Krsna

You said..."There is no agreement among the devotees what that "perfect system" really is,"

This is an absolute stance. And I say you are mistaken.

Just because this might be true in your experience among the devotees that you have canvassed, doesn't mean it is the truth among ALL devotees.

I consider this an assumption and extremist at that.

So as to your statment.

"This kind of pothead "logic" can only be seen among brainwashed cult members."

Better to speak for yourself, lest you find yourself blinded by presumption and miss your own cultish fanatical tendencies while projecting them on others.

What you don't know, can hurt you.

For example, we know that anything which today passes as official Iskcon policy simply could not be representative of the founder acarya's wishes if we consider him to be a wise, warm, kindhearted pure acarya directed 100% by supersoul.

As a matter of FACT, some "Iskcon centers" reflected deviation from his stated policies by 1970, but between then and 1977 he was physically present to identify the problem, and either;

reiterate the policy he originally ordered,

or CHANGE it to a new policy.

So we have a trail of executive policy making. The latest policy that the executive instituted is the one that a capable person may follow.

Krsna dictates the policies through the acarya AND Krsna sends to the acarya a pool of POTENTIALLY capable people. Their free-will dictates whether they will follow the sadhana and fulfill their potential.

There are some who kept track of the policies and lived them more closely then others. They were at this temple or that temple. A brahminical type here, a ksyatria type there. Scattered and dispersed to the four winds once the zonal offenders kicked into gear.

But they remember. They payed close attention to the orders of the Guru, and kept track of the adjustments he made, as if their spiritual life depended on it. And it does.

SB 3.24.5

Purport

Here it is clearly said (samyak sraddhaya) that with great faith one should receive knowledge from the spiritual master and with great faith execute the performance of service. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in his commentary on Bhagavad-gita, has especially stressed the instruction of the spiritual master. One should accept the instruction of the spiritual master as one’s life and soul. Whether one is liberated or not liberated, one should execute the instruction of the spiritual master with great faith.

Some have found one another and through association, kirtana and kattah, and remembering the spiritual master's ways and orders, come together in the spirit of a phoenix rising from the ashes, and quite naturally and organically, a real Prabhupada Iskcon center is arranging itself around those activities.

I suppose as they discover others doing the same in distant locales, a GBC may one day unfold in the same way.

Hare Krsna

If I want to see changes in Iskcon that is only because I want it to succeed, not because I want a cushy position in it. I could not care less about it, lets make it clear.

 

Iskcon is quite a failure now and that is why the change is needed, I think we both agree on that. You may think the change applies only to the people - but I disagree. Prabhupada chose the people, and the system still failed. You think you can make better choices? I doubt it. The system is inherently prone to abuse and thus must be modified.

 

The most logical change would be along the lines of DOM, where temple presidents are elected by the local devotees, and then temple presidents elect GBC's. None of that GBC for life business, where new GBC's are elected by the existing cliques within existing GBC. Or GBCs meddling with local temple affairs, appointing their croonies to all relevant positions - that is a recipe for abuse.

That group of people who would be considered "members in good standing" by the current leaders in Iskcon are each responsible for its current course as well as the leaders.

2 ways you can look at it.

If you are considered officially outside Iskcon for some reason, then separate from you, they are carrying on their business of their own free will, and if they are failing miserably at acheiving the goal to which all the founder's instructions appertain, what possible help could you give. You one man who is officially OR unofficially NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

On the other hand, if you are considered a member of Iskcon, and have influence in the politics there then you have a more directly vested interest in doing your utmost to make things better.

I see you continuously identify, subconsciously, your self with Iskcon. Among the one's I have pointed out previously here is the latest statement for example.

"Close to half of our gurus discredited within our own society (some walked away with a lot of society's money) - no change needed?"

But the alpha and the omega of your relationship to the society of Srila Prabhupada and his disciples is....

How you actually percieve the founder acarya.

When you say things like "Prabhupada chose the people, and the system still failed", I can see that you still have not fully understood the nature of the relationship between Srila Prabhupada, and his Guru, and Krsna.

Prabhupada served Krsna's will. Krsna sent the people and Srila Prabhupada engaged them. Krsna dictated the direction of the system that his Founder Acarya constructed. Whether or not the men would continue to make spiritual advancement and continually requalify themselves for the positions which they were miraculously functioning in, that is the FREE WILL factor, and to Blame that on Srila Prabhupada's "choice" is just laughable.

So you go ahead and imagine that your intellect can invent some "modifications" as you say, to the system the acarya put in place.

You call him founder acarya in the same breath you decry his incompetence with the system he put in place and the poor men he chose to do it with.

All the while forgetting who the "chooser" really is.

I guess some people will buy that as an excuse to let you exercise your intellectual senses, tinkering with what is left of Iskcon like a mad scientist.

Just keep the Kirtana pumping and I'm sure you'll have a blast, just remember the probability is that none of those people had "success" at what you want to help them succeed at, after all this time, because they really wanted what they got now. Don't get your hopes up.

Hare Krsna

The founder and head brahmana of a society has the right and duty to tweak his system as needed in order to get it to the point he is most satisfied with.

No-one else has that right/privelege unless specifically granted by the boss.

Let us put aside for a moment the futile Monday morning quarterbacking by a lifelong karmi manager.

The fact is you would better spend your analytical skills on determining the exact structure of instructions which the society ended with, and to which the exhortation "change nothing" was applied by the architect.

Through analysis you would then see that some of his instructions were never implemented. You already got this with DOM, but there are deeper issues.

It is not that HE did not order them implemented, but the recipients of those orders refused.

So, if he decided to keep them on board, and ignore his new strategy of execution for a time, perhaps he was waiting for them to come around.

Perhaps he scrapped the idea altogether. But if so, he had some system in place at all times, and THIS is the system that must be used.

Or leave Iskcon alone. And all that entails. Or face great reaction to your aparadha. I mean if you are so smart, go make your own movement, as Theist says, FROM SCRATCH.

That's it, good luck, your choice as always, but if you think, like so many of the current hijackers of Iskcon do, that you also are somehow sanctioned with some unlimited timeframe to mess around and tinker with Iskcon, THAT ITSELF DEFIES COMMON SENSE.

Hare Krsna

For the creation of this material world, the Lord expands as Brahma, Visnu, and Mahesvara (Siva). Visnu is a personal expansion, and Brahma is a jiva-tattva expansion. Between the personal visnu-tattva expansions and the jiva-tattva expansions is a kind of intermediate expansion called Siva, or Mahesvara.

I notice that Srila Prabhupada seems bound from giving a name to this "in between" status or category of Lord Siva.

Very mysterious.

Srila Prabhupada explains ...

SB 1.3.5 Purport

Lord Visnu is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead. Lord Siva is in the marginal position between the Personality of Godhead and the living entities, or jivas. Brahma is always a jiva-tattva. The highest pious living being, or the greatest devotee of the Lord, is empowered with the potency of the Lord for creation, and he is called Brahma. His power is like the power of the sun reflected in valuable stones and jewels. When there is no such living being to take charge of the post of Brahma, the Lord Himself becomes a Brahma and takes charge of the post.

Lord Siva is not an ordinary living being. He is the plenary portion of the Lord, but because Lord Siva is in direct touch with material nature, he is not exactly in the same transcendental position as Lord Visnu. The difference is like that between milk and curd. Curd is nothing but milk, and yet it cannot be used in place of milk.

And here is another hint about Sadhusiva's status.

SB 1.3.28 purport

The summum bonum Krsna is one without a second. He Himself has expanded Himself in various parts, portions and particles as svayam-rupa, svayam-prakasa, tad-ekatma, prabhava, vaibhava, vilasa, avatara, avesa, and jivas, all provided with innumerable energies just suitable to the respective persons and personalities. Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum Krsna to have sixty-four principal attributes. All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But Sri Krsna is the possessor of the attributes cent percent. And His personal expansions such as svayam-prakasa, tad-ekatma up to the categories of the avataras who are all visnu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes. Lord Siva, who is neither avatara nor avesa nor in between them, possesses almost eighty-four percent of the attributes.

Another piece of the puzzle.

SB 8.12.39 purport

Of the three chief demigods—Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara—all but Visnu are under the influence of maya. In Caitanya-caritamrta, they are described as mayi, which means “under maya’s influence.” But even though Lord Siva associates with maya, he is not influenced. The living entities are affected by maya, but although Lord Siva apparently associates with maya, he is not affected. In other words, all living entities within this material world except for Lord Siva are swayed by maya. Lord Siva is therefore neither visnu-tattva nor jiva-tattva. He is between the two.

Well, sometimes Krsna might feel like Shiva is supreme.

Very profound observation. The way our society was set up is certainly prone to abuse by people placed in position of responsibility. That is why serious reforms are needed. We could learn a lot from other similar organizations. I dont see a problem with the shastric side of our movement - we have a problem with the common sense side.

Lets break this down.

1. "The way our society was set up"

(By Srila Prabhupada)

2. "is certainly prone to abuse by people placed in position of responsibility."

(as in any and every temporal human societal system on earth, the problem is not with the system and the positions within the system but with the people, not the position. If a position is not filled by a qualified person, do not throw out the position, a master craftsman built that fine tuned machine, throw out the unqualified person and replace him with a capable one)

3. "That is why serious reforms are needed"

(Why am I afriad that you mean to reform the system and not reform or replace the unqualified people who would manage it. Why I am I afraid you just want to make CHANGES to an acarya's newly founded society, a one that you claim to be a member of when you said "The way OUR society was set up", an acarya who said "make no changes" multiple times regarding the management system on tape and in writing.

4. "We could learn alot from other movements".

(Of course you mean branches of the Sankirtana movement who are having such success as Srila Prabhupada did right???)

5. " I don't see a problem with the sastric side of our movement - we have a problem with the common sense side. "

(As for common sense we already know that which ever side is not the "sastric side of the movement, is already split off from the movement if split from shastra, and I agree that is unwise, if wisdom were the common sense you were referring to.)

And speaking of common sense.

For you to sometimes appear to be aloof from Iskcon, a free agent, a dispassionate cooperater with "all" the camps, and then other times speak as if you are on the board of directors of Iskcon giving advice on where to source the crafting of reforms that the system of the acarya is so in need of,

isn't fooling anyone with common sense. Can you feel it? I think you do. The Dragon. The sleek sensuous form of such leviathan power, a planet-wide movement of people united into one bland homogenous undefinable mass of scientifically created sterile lifestyles, all flowing and writhing and adjusting according to the dictates of one's own mind?

Only kidding. Just give the acarya's authorized structure a chance with some qualified people. If it then fails, then the qualified people are qualified to get together and Reform or form again, and I am sure it would be great but I doubt it will get that far, because qualified people in the Acarya's societal skeletal blueprint will far surpass any of our expectations.

Hare Krsna

To some, Lord Shiva is believed to be the source of Paramatma, as they consider him to be the supreme personality of the Godhead, and Shiva accepts that mode of worship.

I have never seen any documented statement where Srila Govinda Maharaja has denied being a ritvik of Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

 

What I have seen is some followers of the Math on this forum deriding the ritvik conception and touting Govinda Maharaja as non-ritvik, full-fledged acharya.

 

I don't deny that he is acharya and guru.

What I see in the words of Srila Sridhar Mahraja is that he wanted all the followers of the Math to respect Srila Govinda Maharaja as an acharya acting in a ritvik capacity.

 

I have never been one to deride a ritvik as anything less than a guru or acharya.

That is what other people feel, but not me.

 

I don't think that one can be ritvik unless he is acting as an acharya by following the orders of his spiritual master.

 

Ritvik appointment is not a demeaning or minimizing of the disciple.

 

When an acharya establishes a Math and a mission it is my view that after him all the successors are really ritviks of the acharya.

 

That is the way the Ramanuja sampradaya works from what I have heard and I think it is quite a logical system.

Yes, there is a difference between the office and the official. The official may be of various grades of qualification or even unqualified regarding the responsibilities of the office.

If one who is so instructed remains Ritvik by official position, and is also acting capably and fulfilling his potential there, they are in fact acting as acarya and Guru.

Those who can't understand how Lord Krsna could manage a transcendental ritvik representation system within a Sankirtana movement using Daivi Varnasrama Dharma, lack the faith in Krsna's ability to do anything he wants through those souls willing to fulfill his and his Acarya's desires.

They are so stuck on the gross form side of things that they claim the appointment of ritviks is form only and no substance.

When the reality is essential substance begets manifest form, subtle informs the gross, the presence of person who is qualified and capable of being a ritvik creates the need for the outer form comprised of the duties of some position.

A ritvik may even be only a very advanced neophyte, but if he is following strictly his Guru's orders, by his action he is considered transcendentally situated and potent as a via media for whatever plan Sri Guru has, because he fulfills the terms of his office, and thus the system designed by the Lord is NOT hindered by the actions of such a follower, but allowed to expand and develop as the Lord sees fit.

The ritvik system is actually the perfect firewall to separate the cheaters from the honest.

The cheaters will never accept the ritvik system, and so they and the cheated have their own sahajya "pastimes".

The honest will follow and whatever the Lord and the Acarya had in mind will continue to unfold and expand transcendentally because of their willingness to cooperate with faith in the order, and then see what happens, instead of allowing their own lower mental analysis to convince them the Acarya was out of his mind one day, and it is up to them to heroically "fix" the acarya's system while feigning great awe and respect for said acarya.

There are many layers of defense as the Guardian of devotion has implied.

Hare Krsna

And if my assertion that I'm Henry VIII is true then you shall be beheaded.

 

Where does anybody get the crazy notion that Srila Govinda Maharaja sees himself as anything but the eternal servant of Srila Sridhar Maharaja?

No sweat Murali, I was just playing the game until eventually someone clarified the known facts in evidence separate from the speculation.

I sensed some passionate provocation.

If we use the example of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami and what his disciples passed off as proper representation of the Guru's will, no true disciple of his would infer that he was lax in chastising the rebels, but conversely would know that the rebels simply chose against the proper option, and that rejection of the Guru is no fault of the Guru.

I want to hear it from Srila Govinda Maharaja's own mouth or on official transcript from an internal memo or a lecture/conversation before I can believe something so unlikely as his rejection of his Guru's order in his Guru's matha.

I don't know where anybody gets the idea that Gurudeva renounced anything given to him by Param-Gurudev.

 

For anybody that's spent any time around Gurudeva, it's perfectly clear that everything he does is done as an offering to his Guru Maharaja.

 

In your comments and Guruvani's, I sense a non-trivial amount of envy. Maybe I'm just projecting.

If Guruvani's assertions earlier regarding Srila Govinda Maharaja's rejection of ritvik are true, then why evade the truth and its implications? Afraid of making a little spiritual advancement? No gain with pain?

I still have not seen proof except for Suchandra's cheerleading follow up post, but silence is often considered acceptance. And all you have offered is an irrelevant analogous defense, not an evidentiary refutation of Guruvani's assertion.

Like I said. Probably a preaching strategy, because he is a nice Vaisnava.

Hare Krsna

I see you are enjoying in your usual posse of strawmen their Theist. Thats what happens when you hang around the Bay area too long.

Like I said.

The rapture is not what YOU think it is. Nor is it what any denominational and delusional "christians" think it is.

But there are some true christians derived from any and all sections, who seeked and found in the chambers of their heart they may commune with their Lord and master Jesus Christ as he said they could, as the Holy Spirit. Sri Guru. And raptured they will be as they will witness the Mighty and Great will of God deliver them from their ignorance of who He is as they advance in their sadhana under the guidance of their Lord Jesus.

And thanks for that nice little abstract lesson on the res. I think you might be ready, with a little more practice, to enlighten some real dullards on the subject.

Sorry, I better re-up on the Brahmi too.

Hare Krsna

I like that.

A mayavada defense mechanism.

Do you realize how cryptically mystical that is, for as we can see it works perfectly as it never interrupts their slumber.

Jaya Prabhupada

OK I checked and you provided no such authoritative proof.

On the other thread I told you that you never previously expressed the position that you later adopted from the recent and apparently stated conclusions of others in that thread, you claimed (paraphrase) "on this and other forums on the internet I have established that position from the beginning and that was 9 years ago".

But for me, the archives means this board.

The only board I post on.

And you are one of the main people I have discussed with.

And you seem to be able to remember certain things I have said quite well in order to characterize my positions regularly over time, but in this case the old memory just short circuits?

I don't think so. You've been right there during the process where we have unveiled many subtle and esoteric nuances regarding tattvas of the Jiva, tatastha, brahmajyoti, etc.

Play dumb if you want, the proof is there, already provided.

Like you are always quoting authorites when you make points.

Better re-up on Brahmi Prabhu.

Hare Krsna

It appears to me Srila Prabhupada, being the great world acharya he was, also had to be part psychologist, part socialogist and part babysitter.

As I quoted before, Srila Prabhupada even wrote in his purport that he was somtetimes perplexed about exactly how to preach Krishna conciousness on a world scale.

 

 

 

So, I see in Srila Prabhupada's approach to preaching a sort of mayavada defense mechanism in his parakosha method of analogous examples.

 

He appeared to worry that the actual Gaudiya siddhanta could get misunderstood and butchered by neophyte western devotees if he was too straight forward and open about the actual connection between the jiva and it's brahmajyoti origins.

He does explain the situation if some parts of his books but in most of his letters and conversations he seemed to dance around the issue and avoid such direct and open explanations.

 

So, as a spiritual pshycologist, Srila Prabhupada approached preaching about origins and the fall of the jiva with a extreme measure of tact so as to hopefully prevent upstart western devotees from misunderstanding the siddhanta and using it to justify some jnana-misra bhakti and an over-infatuation with the brahman aspect of Krishna.

 

Sometimes I refer to this as fairytale telling.

Srila Prabhupada felt that kind of preaching was necessary.

I personally prefer the straight on siddhanta.

I don't think I needed to be spoonfed some watered-down siddhanta.

Maybe Srila Prabhupada felt that most western people did.

 

So, I see a certain measure of psychological programming built into the preaching of Srila Prabhupada.

I don't see his message as some raw version of Gaudiya siddhanta.

I see some embellishments that Srila Prabhupada added because he felt the need as he admitted to being perplexed sometimes about exactly how to push forward the KC movement on a global scale.

 

However, if we venture into the actual Gaudiya texts and writings of the previous acharyas we will find that there is much less of this psychology added to the siddhanta and the shastra.

 

I certainly don't fault Srila Prabhupada for the way he preached.

I am not so sure I agree that western people really needed to hear it that way, but Srila Prabhupada obviously felt they did.

He was an Indian guru and I am an American, so our perspectives on that issue are very different.

 

In the end I think the preventative measures might have become an issue.

Not that the fall-from-goloka fairytale really hurts anyone, while the Mayavada contamination would.

 

Personally, I don't think that the raw Gaudiya siddhanta at all nurtures any Mayavada tendencies and I personally don't really see that the "fairytale" was necessary.

Srila Prabhupada did not exactly tell the fairytale, but it is seen that from his preaching the fairytale was able to be extrapolated.

 

So, it is not really that Srila Prabhupada diverged from the Gaudiya siddhanta.

He just approached his world mission with a certain approach to the psychology that he thought was necessary for western people.

 

I am not so sure that Srila Prabhupada really understood the mind of western people.

I think western people could have been given the raw siddhanta without making a mess out of it.

What has been made a mess of is his "origins" theory and his paroksha method of preaching by analogy.

The analogies have been taken too literally and some philosophical confusion has taken root in ISKCON.

I perceive much of the same, and reiterate that part of Lord Krsna's desires to be fulfilled, one of his goals, was to lay down the complete skeleton for Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's vision of Daivi varnasrama on earth.

So Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada acted as the Cheif instructing Brahmana for his fledgling society, and used the present understandings and capacities of those members of the civilized and orderly Anglo Saxon society in America who came to him, and his goal was to dovetail them from their present evolutionary moment of consciousness by just adding Krsna in the right dose, at the right time, for the right person.

As he was at the time the only one qualified to act as the King of Ksyatrias in his society, another role he had demanded that he protect his more ignorant citizens from themselves, and give them what they really wanted, gross material desires and all, if they showed an inkling of submission his way and might someday want all that he really had to give.

He was like the most Extraordinary and Exquisite Diamond radiating colors as yet unforseen in this Universe and we became his rays when surrendered to his Divine will.

But only by the mercy received commensurate to surrender does one receive the eyes to harmonize seemingly contradicting statements, and those eyes come from hearing one's Acarya's purport to Sastra (from his lips or his pen) and regularly associating and consulting with whoever else represents the acarya in Sankirtana Yajna and is conversant in the Science of Krsna consciousness in one's locality.

Divine slavery to such an acarya is certain to result in a loss of ones will to ever do anything but fulfill their most selfish desire of all, which is to always find a way to fulfill either Krsna's or one's spiritual master's desires, no matter how they treat you.

Thus the myth of free will indeed.

Hare Krsna

Hari bol.

Please allow me to rephrase the last reply I gave which did not make it through moderation, though I can't understand why...

Theist wrote,

Uh ....sevabhakta thanks for offering the nice post but to do so in an attempt to correct my position means you don't understand my position, I totaly agree with what you posted and that has been my understanding of the situation for devades and I challenge you to find somewhere where I have said differently.

 

That nice post that you claim I made was in response to your "position" from this post of yours.

Clearly your side of the debate does not understand what marginal means in terms of the living entities.

 

For the tenth time I will tell you no one says there is maya in Goloka. That is your strawman. The living being carries the option with them always to serve the Supreme Enjoyer or desire to be the central enjoyer themselves.

 

If the desire to be the central enjoyer arises then the experience of maya comes into play. That is the arguement. You are beating a dead horse that you killed yourself, that belonged to yourelf and no one was riding away.

 

Wherein you claim that for the 10th time , you will tell us that no one says there is maya in Goloka, and then state that the desire to be the central enjoyer may arise, and the experience of maya comes into play.

And that that is the arguement.

But the arguement has ACTUALLY BEEN, that a devotee fixed in loving service of Krsna in Goloka NEVER desires to be the central enjoyer. And that such a desire is actually a product of maya's influence on a non-liberated spirit spark.

Ergo, people in this debate ARE claiming, indirectly, that maya has influence in Goloka, because the very desire to be the central enjoyer is NOT POSSIBLE, the position is already taken, so such a desire is illusion, thus a gift of Maha Maya.

But then you appear to have been holding an ACE up your sleeve in a debate that you "could care less about", that a Jiva can fall twice, which alludes that YOGA Maya can give the desire to be central enjoyer as part of Krsna's lila.

And in my post that was deleted, I simply stated that my realizations on this matter are coming through reading, speculating, inferrring, checking against Guru and Sadhu, and then sharing immediately with the debate field.

Whereas you seem to have it all figured out, but are claiming disinterest in a debate where you have been in the very midst of, claiming to be neutral and disinterested.

And I was disappointed that you did not just share your vision from the beginning, and commented that SOMETHING was getting in the way of heartfelt sharing in your case, but thanked you for sharing anyway, even if we had to pull teeth to get you to open up!!

The something is for you to figure out I guess. I wear my heart on my sleeve and am about as cunning as a grasshopper. Anyway, it has been REAL.

Hare Krsna

The authority is the one who gave the visions to John and Daniel.

He lives in Colorado.

And all eyes shall bear witness to the fall of non-vedic principles.

Most "bhaktas" I know will be peeing in their pants when the mercenaries from Eastern europe/russia/asia invade through Canada, Mexico and Florida and march through the streets after a few well placed nukes.

But I wish everyone the advancement that Theist and Mahaksadasa allude to which could allow one to chant Hare Krsna as they are marched to one of the concentration camps.

Don't worry though, it will be approximately 4 years before this occurs. First will be Martial Law in America, by 2008, a quick clean up and interrment of the most prominent and REAL fanatic terrorist groups in america, the illegal aliens, and other assorted fanatic/hatefull characters.

All along though, the 7 seals will be released world wide, and the trumpet judgements will sound.

If one is solid in their sadhana, there is no need to poo poo what I say based on speculation, some people may take this warning to heart in a positive way and it will increase their awe and reverence and redouble their sadhana.

By the way, revelations wasn't meant for you to figure out. The demigod (angel) who provided the vision to John and Daniel knew they would encrypt the revelation in a code that only he himself would understand and reveal in the last days.

No rapture? Hah! Those Christians who actually followed the teachings that made it through the wranglings and machinations of the mad priesthood are glorious, and so will be their rapturous reuniting with their spiritual master, Lord Jesus Christ.

Rapture, also, is not what you THINK it is.

It will be what it is.

Hare Krsna

Sorry, I guess you missed all the quotes which led to my little compilation there, including YOUR quote.

I don't have time to go back through the archives, if you are really interested though have at it, I have some pressing matters to attend to as per the last thread I posted.

Hare Krsna

ergo, when a person is conditioned, he is conditioned.

When he is liberated, the "second time", he is no longer marginal or able to be conditioned. Firmly fixed up means eternally liberated, aka Swarupa siddhi, aka transmuted from marginal energy to Hladini sakti of the Cit sakti, as Guruvani once surmised.

How sweet it is.

Please accept my humble obeisances...

All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

For what it is worth, I have heard from the top authority on earth in the matter, that the first seal of the Apocalypse will be opened before Christmas this 2007.

There have already been 2 attempted nuclear strikes against Iran, and both were foiled by elements in the U.S. military who are trying to prevent such a thing. The second of these strikes was to eliminate Putin who was visiting Tehran. All 3 U.S. servicemen arming the Patriot missle battery who shot down the nuke tipped missle launched at Tehran were shot through the head. The Commander of the nuke sub that launched the missle was relieved of command in LA, as were anyone in his crew who was in on the mission, who knows where they are now. Cover stories for the deaths of the 3 servicemen who "accidentally launced" a patriot missle from Quatar, and the arresting of Commander Portland and select crew from the USS Hampton are covered in the Washington post and LA times respectively.

Of course Srila Prabhupada told us the flashpoint will be India and Pakistan for the Great war to end all wars. If you know who backs who, you will see where that will go. Add to this the race riots being fomented by the shrewd Demons who spur on the fanatic racists in America, and the practical decimation of the food and water supply here, and maybe now you can see why Srila Prabhupada, along with a couple bhaktas I know from this forum, begged and pleaded with us to implement DVD within our ranks, and become self-sufficient.

So this will be the last thread I post at Audarya. I am going to finish preparations for sanctuary, if Srila Prabhupada wills it be done.

Kshambuddhi das, I will be in touch. Thanks for the internet Kattah this last year.

To everyone else, please keep the faith and let it grow. And perhaps keep some seeds and let them grow too.

I wish you all great spiritual advancement during these trying times.

And I wish that you all, especially Kulapavana and Theist, will forgive me the inummerable offenses I am sure I committed in my chastising moods.

your servant and Prabhupada's dog,

Sevabhakta aka Bhakta Devarsi

Uh ....sevabhakta thanks for offering the nice post but to do so in an attempt to correct my position means you don't understand my position, I totaly agree with what you posted and that has been my understanding of the situation for devades and I challenge you to find somewhere where I have said differently.

Uh, Theist, thanks for recognizing the truth, but I challenge you to show somewhere that you have stated, succinctly, the position you are claiming to have "understood for decades", which I just encapsulated.

If you had such a clear understanding for decades, why didn't you ever just say so, instead of playing the fence all this time, and only after I spell it out plainly, you then claim WHAT I SAID has been YOUR position.

Come on bro, I wake up too early for that, I call B.S., but with the understanding that we all need to guard our pride, I get B.S. called on me every day, so I hope you don't take it TOO personally.

The reason why I eventually nail all these so called philisophical contradictions is because my false ego is being humbled into oblivion by my ignorance every day, and my recognition of it, and the resulting pain, is so much that the Lord can't help but give me the truth in place of the ignorance once I let it go.

I highly suggest the process. Poison going down, nectar comin out.

Hare Krsna

"Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda , Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:

 

 

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Yeah, but what did he know? He had yet to hear the commentaries of such Vaisnava luminaries as Sarva Gattah!