sevabhakta

You are forgetting the humble Gaudiya brahmana's who you have never heard of, and most people have not.

In collusion with one of the few truly pious local Ksyatrias whose family has heard from descendents of those directly preached to by Mahaprabhu, the actual writings of Vyasadeva and the real vaisnava translations and commentaries all preserved, carefully, and they just don't tell any of the german or british scholars about it, never will, they are guided by supersoul in the heart to only reveal it to the right folks.

Everyone else can speculate their lives away about the psuedo translations and replicas of the Bhagavatam written after Vyasadeva.

There may only be a handful of such extreme loyalists, but exactly what kind of Vaisnava group do you think Abhay Caran and his father were a part of anyway. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada worked these insiders and kept the family secret close to the vest.

Vaisnava's take no pleasure in seeing others squirm in their doubtful speculations, but they also know when to throw the pearls before the swine for maximum effect, so give em their due eh?

Hare Krsna

Hare Krsna

The point is that lunch righteousness is just psuedo piety, especially when used to try and guilt or shame others into doing what you think they should.

Part of Srila Prabhupada's plan for the Krsna consciousness movement was to transition to a lighter and more harmonious way of living with mother earth and mother cow. He was very clear about the details too, if anyone cares to research what he said on the subject.

If that goal is diligently and honestly worked toward, there is no sinful reaction incurred when something that does not have a perfectly sattvik history in terms of cultivation and distribution, is offered to the dieties, DURING THE TRANSITION PERIOD.

The dedication (devotion) to making the societal adjustments requested by the spiritual master is the essence. The reorganizing of society to reflect the mode of goodness is a secondary result that assists the sadhana process for most. But it is a secondary result of serious Bhaktas fulfilling the instruction of their spiritual master, and THAT IS THE PERFECTION, making the attempt with no attachment to the results. You will never perfectly defend every Jiva from suffering by your own Jainist/Vegan program of mental speculation.

By following the program of the acarya, you may or may not find yourself eventually in a supernaturally harmonious vedic society, or even have your own planet to run like that for a while, but only by his mercy, for Krsna's purpose, and don't bet on it.

Hare Krsna

I put some more thought into this subject.

Cow protection directly implies different standards for the different ages and genders of the cows. There are various degrees and stages of protecting cows. There is perhaps some slight consistent protection of the bodies of 1000 milkers on an assembly line, and then there is loving protection of a mother cow, a pasture, a bull to have a calf with, lovingly milking her, etc.

Is abstaining from drinking milk from cows who your neighbor tortures every day cow protection. I say yes. Will it be an effective strategy? If karma dictates yes, you will influence others, and there will be enough of a boycott that the dairyman might change his ways, etc. If karma dictates NO, then you will just go milkless, but guilt free.

If there is another humane alternative, you might seek it out OR CREATE IT YOURSELF, and there you go. You got milk.

From the transcendental viewpoint, we take milk where we can get it and offer it to Guru and Krsna. We are not yet cow protectors in the fullest sense, but that is our goal, and we make more progress toward it than those who do not have it as their goal, or who have it as their goal but do not understand the vedic method of complete loving cow protection.

It is dishonesty to rest on one's spiritual laurels, and take commercial milk if a little effort and research will reveal a more humane alternative, even if a little more expensive. If not, commercial milk will not only do fine for making offerings, if you are honestly in transition to vedic cow protection, but the milk of those cows is being offered to Lord Krsna by sincere devotees, and THAT IS THE HIGHEST PROTECTION FOR THOSE COWS AT THE MOMENT. You are consciously and willingly starting their transcendental link by offering them indirect service to Krsna.

This is watering the root. Those cows are now first in line to be liberated by the future combined efforts of devotees and humanitarian karmi groups. That commercial dairy farm could soon after be chosen at random for a new pilot project of the diary industry where they test newer more humane treatment of cows based on public demand and pressure from activist groups. How Krsna arranges their further service and release from their terrible karma may then be mostly out of our direct ability to influence, but the point is we water the root, Krsna takes care of the rest.

I know some vaisya devotees who protect cows to a very high degree. I met the cows and they were truly alive, playful, and it was such a singular experience. Their milk was divine.

When I decide to offer and drink commercial milk, whose nutritional value is anywhere from dubious to poisonous, I remember, envy, and admire him.

Hare Krsna

While present in Maha Maya's realm, each individual Jiva can make spiritual advancement. There is no loss or dimunition of such advancement, although the Jiva remains in Maha Maya's realm. This is because Yoga Maya also functions simultaneously, side by side with the activity of the material gunas.

So if "I" am making spiritual advancement by engaging in some preliminary devotional service, and slightly elevating my life which is mostly spent in the gunas, who is the "I" who is the recipient of that change?

BG 2.40 Translation : In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.

 

PURPORT

Activity in Krsna consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Krsna without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Krsna consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Krsna consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Krsna consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent; whereas, in material activity, without a hundred percent success, there is no profit. Ajamila performed his duty in some percentage of Krsna consciousness, but the result he enjoyed at the end was a hundred percent, by the grace of the Lord. There is a nice verse in this connection in Srimad-Bhagavatam:

tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer

bhajan na pakko 'tha patet tato yadi

yatra kva vabhadram abhud amusya kim

ko vartha apto 'bhajatam sva-dharmatah

"If someone gives up self-gratificatory pursuits and works in Krsna consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And, what can one gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?" (Bhag. 1.5.17) Or, as the Christians say, "What profiteth a man if he gain the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?"

Material activities and their results end with the body. But work in Krsna consciousness carries the person again to Krsna consciousness, even after the loss of the body. At least one is sure to have a chance in the next life of being born again as a human being, either in the family of a great cultured brahmana or in a rich aristocratic family that will give one a further chance for elevation. That is the unique quality of work done in Krsna consciousness.

 

So to answer Kulapavana's question, our material consciousness does change with our experiences in the material world, and the assault of the material gunas, which cover our true conscious nature as spirit soul, provides the impetus for us to renounce in favor of transcendental devotional engagements, and by those engagements, our true consciousness is at first only gradually revealed.

That is the first change of consciousness, that the gunas elevate to goodness enough that we can use that sattva as a springboard to get glimpses of our true spiritual consciousness. But that is not exactly a change of that spiritual consciouness, just a recognition.

SB 3.25.1 Purport.

 

The word atma-prajnaptaye indicates that the Lord descends for the benefit of the human race to give transcendental knowledge. Material necessities are quite sufficiently provided for in the Vedic knowledge, which offers a program for good living conditions and gradual elevation to the platform of goodness. In the mode of goodness one’s knowledge expands. On the platform of passion there is no knowledge, for passion is simply an impetus to enjoy material benefits. On the platform of ignorance there is no knowledge and no enjoyment, but simply life almost like that of animals.

The Vedas are meant to elevate one from the mode of ignorance to the platform of goodness. When one is situated in the mode of goodness he is able to understand knowledge of the self, or transcendental knowledge.

 

Next as we live from that real identity more and more, that spiritual consciousness may change while in the material realm or the spiritual realm, change at that point meaning the evolution of our spiritual consciousness is the ever-fresh and eternally changing awareness of who Krnsa is to us as we move through the rasas.

Somethin is a rumblin, so I guess a tumblin sounds about right.

All? Maybe.

Krsna Kirtana ki Jaya.

Hari Bol

Namaste/Haribol

As a part of my spiritual quest, I'm going to try Gaudiya Vaishnavism (which, ironically, is where I started back in April 2007).

 

I already know the basics of this great religion, but I'm having problems on the purification rituals. The only purification ritual I know of is Achamana. Does Lord Chaitanya recommend this? Or does He recommend a different type of purification ritual?

Haribol and Namaste!

Welcome back.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was the most recent historical figure who went all over the world representing Lord Caitanya in His mission to spread both the chanting of the Holy Name, and the Pancaratriki rituals as recommended by Sri Narada Muni and the Goswami's of Vrndavana. Inspired by his Guru, he created a full and detailed system of Bhakti Sadhana based in Pancaratriki rituals in a way that would engage anyone from any social position in any country. Thus he was considered an Acarya.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada prescribed these rituals, rules, and regulations on Lord Caitanya's behalf. This was due to his unwavering allegience to the instruction of his Guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami. Who was just as chaste to his Guru, going back in succession to Mahaprabhu himself.

So I have been learning the rituals of purification that he recommended for all his disciples, and those who his disciples would instruct, etc.

As I understand it the rituals of purification for beginners are as follows.

1. Ritually chant the maha mantra. On beads, and together with other devotees in Kirtana or congregational chanting.

2. Ritually read the 4 Books written by Srila Prabhupada that he declared would give the entire philosophy and instructions needed to acheive Krsna Prema. Bhagavad Gita As it Is, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Caitanya Caritamrta, and Nectar of Devotion.

3. At whatever point you gain faith after being convinced by the knowledge you gain from Ritually Hearing and Chanting like this, consider applying further standard Rules and Regulative principles in your lifestyle.

4. Ritually meet with other devotees, and make the 6 kinds of loving exchanges with them, throughout the rituals above in #s (1-3).

5. When properly initiated, learn arcana and ritually worship dieties in your home, or if a brahmacari, perhaps in the temple.

That should get you started and keep you happily engaged for a while.

Hare Krsna!

.

No one has defeated my position based on the Gita.

The only one getting emotional is Theist, attacking my character, making assumptions about my devotion, my perspective on cow slaughter, ascribing guilt, and other such things.

I actually feel bad enough watching him twist in the wind trying to maintain his beliefs so I will bow out.

Hare Krsna

Our actions are what this thread is about. And it is not a judgment based on speculation or needing to know you I am debating the legitamcy of your position as stated by you.

 

When Bhagavad-gita was written there were no factory farms and besides does it say something about milk in the Gita?

 

It does say something about cow protection, that I know.

 

The point is cow protection and not how to cleanse you of your sinful reactions. If you are ever able to understand that you would make sense of this conversation and could track along with the topic.

 

Until then....

Oh, is what you say above really the only point of this thread? I think not. Let me refer you to the original post where you pasted a question asked to Sivarama Swami " Vegans claim that we are contributing to factory farming and calves being deprived of their mothers’ milk. How do we address this argument?"

And within the answer given by Sivarama Swami, YOU put the emphasis on the following statement.

"Therefore, just because we are devotees, just because we offered some milk then we think we’re free from the reaction for the violence that’s involved in procuring that milk–and remember that the cow, the bull, and the calf are later all slaughtered, and that’s something you’re also involved in when you’re drinking milk–then you have a very hard argument to try to defeat. In fact, it’s not an argument you can defeat."

So while you say the point of the thread was cow protection, you quote Sivarama Swami here making a mistake.

A devotee doesn't think they are free from the "reaction for the violence".

A devotee is free from sinful reactions according to Lord Krsna as per BG 3.13.

I don't care what Yuga the Gita was spoken in, that is sophistry, the Gita is eternal, and quite frankly if there weren't sinful reactions associated with gathering bhoga in Dwarapa Yuga then why would Krsna waste his time telling us how he was going to "release" us from them when we sacrifice it to him???

What philosophy are you here discussing anyway?

Sinful reactions come from piously protecting cows and growing nice vegetables and eating them. If it is not offered to Krsna, you are verily sinning.

SB 3.25.10 Purport

 

In this material world, activities for material enjoyment which are considered to be pious are also sinful.

 

It is illogical to deduce that any type of bhoga procured by a devotee in a reasonable and customary way through honest trade would by its history be so karmically entangled in ignorance that it would override the truth of Lord Krsna's word.

This is just lunch righteousness, and is not based on Lord Krsna's own words.

Why not advocate cow-protection on its own merits instead of neglecting scripture to force a neurotic guilt trip onto people?

Has anybody stopped to think that maybe the cows in commercial dairies get some benefit if the milk they produce is bought and offered to Krishna.

 

After all, they are Krishna's cows.

Why shouldn't milk from Krishna's cows be offered to Krishna so that they can get some benefit?

 

Anyone who thinks they have it all figured out and that offering milk from commercial dairies offends Krishna has no proof that Krishna does not accept the milk from cows that get slaughtered.

 

It is really up to Krishna which milk he accepts and which milk he doesn't.

I find it hard to believe that Krishna doesn't accept milk from any of his cows even if some demon dairy farmer kills them when they aren't good producers anymore.

 

Krishna loves cows - Govinda.

Is he prejudiced against the poor cows that are slaughtered by some demon?

I wouldn't think so.

 

Such cows need love and affection and a chance to offer their milk to Krishna.

Yes, very nice, and while doing that over time, we should be protecting as many cows as is possible with the facilities Krsna gives us at the time, and it would be nice training for Ksatriya types to go on some nighttime liberation missions, and even nicer if eventually some of us were so purified that we could go around chastising those who harm the cows.

Baby steps, Grasshoppah, slow and steady liberates the cow.

 

Thanks for clarifying - at least activists like Vandana Shiva (PBS, The Dying Fields) not only explain but actually do something.

 

Wikipedia: Vandana Shiva has fought for changes in the practice and paradigms of agriculture and food. Intellectual property rights, biodiversity, biotechnology, bioethics, genetic engineering are among the fields where Shiva has contributed intellectually and through activist campaigns. She has assisted grassroots organizations of the Green movement in Africa, Asia, Latin America, Ireland, Switzerland and Austria with campaigns against genetic engineering. In 1982, she founded the Research Foundation for Science, Technology and Ecology. Her book, "Staying Alive" helped redefine perceptions of third world women. Shiva has also served as an adviser to governments in India and abroad as well as non governmental organisations, including the International Forum on Globalisation, the Women's Environment & Development Organization and the Third World Network. Vandana Shiva participated in the Stock Exchange of Visions project in 2007.

 

It is actually very nice that people take on such humanitarian missions. They keep the balance more toward the mode of goodness on this planet.

Scientific advancement in technology is a part of Varnasrama dharma vedic society. However using junk science or the fruits of real science to cheat and tyrannize others was Hiranyakasipu's game, and if the Bioethicist is not on her game, such demon types will take over for good.

Much technology should simply be rejected by anyone trying to live simply and think highly because those levels of tech are a result of ugrakarma.

Waving the Prabhupada flag will not cover your actions. I am talking about your actions today not someone else's 30-40 yars ago.

 

When you buy commercial milk you are supporting cow slaughter directly. That is not disputable. That is what I object to and that is what you will be held responsible for.

 

Cow slaughter is not cow protection.

There you go again "talking about my actions".

You don't even know me, and this discussion is not about the straw man of what your conditioned mind imagines "my actions" regarding offering bhoga to the Dieties are.

This discussion is whether a person is released from the sinful reactions in relation to how their bhoga is obtained, and according to the Bhagavad Gita if the bhoga is offered as sacrifice the person who does so is released from the sinful reactions involved.

You have a different theology on the subject than the Bhagavad Gita.

Call me a Prabhupada flag waver anytime. I reject your version.

Maybe you should read my posts more carefully if you are going to respond to them.

 

I understand you are suporting the killing of cows and calves by drinking commercial milk and preforming a certain religious ritual first thinking it will remove your karma.

 

What I am saying is that the way the cows are presently treated in factory farms makes your offering meaningless. You people remind me of the christians who sin all week and then go to confession on Sunday to become free from the effects of those sins and then do it all again the next week. Or maybe the bathing of the elephant example will have more meaning for you.

 

I've noticed some of you can't approach Sivarama's arguement directly so you have begun a campaign of "guilt by associatrion", in your minds, by linking him up with NM. How cheap.

Theist, why do you presume to know the devotion behind another person's offering to their dieties?

Why do you insist that the fact that cows were being treated poorly in factory farms means that all the commercial milk offered by Srila Prabhupada and his direct disciples was rendered a meaningless offering?

I am astounded.

BG 3.13 Translation.

"The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin."

Which part of "RELEASED FROM ALL KINDS OF SINS"

don't you understand Theist?

So you are admitting that the cows that are enslaved to give you milk are slaughtered (their male calves are used for veal BTW). But since you figure Krsna is accepting your offering He is stopping the bloody result from landing on your head. So that is your justification for engaging in cow slaughter.

No, that is your concoction. I said what I said and it is the truth.

Your straw man deflection trying to paint me as engaging in cow slaughter is petty and trite.

What the heck are you on? How can you paint someone quoting the philosophy as using the truth hypocritically to justify something that is a grievous crime? And paint all the glasses of milk offered by thousands of devotees over decades as unbreakable chains to the karmic reaction of cow torture.

You have got to get out more.

Not everyone is trying to use the philosophy to justify the continuation of evil deeds.

I would like to have seen you try your tapdance in front of Srila Prabhupada.

He would have told you to go get a cow, protect it and milk it, and come back and offer the milk to the temple for consumption, and in the meantime to keep your trap shut from condemning his other disciples who don't have cows or access to humanely treated cows.

I advocate for everyone to use a reasonable and gradual approach with the goal to reduce cow torture and increase cow protection. This all or nothing attitude is extreme, arrogant, and counterproductive.

Jaya Nitai!

Prabhu, it is not just that Srila Prabhupada said, it is that the symptoms and the storyline match what he said. And there is no dimunition or diminishment intended or involved, only glorification of the mysteries of mercy and advancement.

There is no need to be sectarian, yet we can honor the differences and enjoy the transcendental competition at the same time as being unified in general in our approach to the Supreme Personality, Sri Krsna.

Hare Krsna

Mahak is right.

If most people were to find out how many lies have been crammed between their ears, and how many experiments have and are being done upon them, they would loose their bowels.

There is a huge propaganda machine which promotes a theory of a unified nation marching into a frontier, facing challenges and progressing the "human race". This to cover the simple desires of a cabal of greedy powerful elite who seek to control nature by their speculative mind.

Due to the absence of qualified vedic Ksyatrias, we have rapacious fallen dwija-bhandus with a polished veneer of civility who are fighting to control the fantasies of their slave populations in order to gain world domination.

Getting to the moon was just enough of a tittilation for the masses that kept the positive energy flowing to Nasa in order to increase their budget and justify their public persona.

So where do all those rockets and shuttles really go? What are their real missions? How top secret is it?

If anyone thinks the brains and money behind all these missions was simply a manifestation of the intellectual curiosity of mankind to visit the moon, I have a bridge to sell you.

All you have seen and heard from the oil soaked monopoly press is "bought and paid for" by the military industrial complex whose editorial agenda is framed by government subsidized "think tanks" or worse, the shadow ops masters, and are duly applied to the daily offerings of the mainstream media.

Like a shell game.

Meanwhile, on the periphery of your vision, you should just be able to start picking up glimpses of what these controllers have been building and working toward. As the net that begins to be drawn in tight.

Hint: They want your awe and reverence first, then your allegience, money, and first born. The all mighty impersonal big brother government "at your service".

Vedic monarchy or bust.

Hare Krsna

So prove your theory. What is your logic for saying what you say? It can be easily shown what happens to the mother that you take milk from. When she stops pruducing enough milk she is turned into hamburger.

 

Please show me where I am wrong or admit you are a cow killer by drinking commercial milk. It is one or the other.

You said,

"If you are drinking commercial milk then you are involved in cow and calve slaughter."

And I am simply saying that if you offer your bhoga sincerely to your Spiritual Master to offer to Lord Krsna, he takes care of any entaglements to reactions HIMSELF. So you, as the disciple are NOT INVOLVED. There is no involvement whatsoever after a offered meal is accepted by the Supreme Lord. That food is sanctified. You know it. You just want an arguement? Find the quote yourself then. This is 101.

Do you know what is in white sugar? I suppose that Srila Prabhupada was involved in cow slaughter because he personally purchased, or ordered someone to purchase white refined sugar while living in NYC in 1966, and trust me, all the sugar back then was tainted and you couldn't buy "sugar in the raw" back then.

I am not pleased either with the lack of progress toward protecting cows in America.

Hare Krsna

First you wrote

 

 

 

You said "only by their surrender to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and association with Srila Prabhupada did Srila Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Govinda Maharaja make the advancement to perfection that they have."

 

But Srila Sridhar Maharaj was a follower of Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura and nobody else.

 

How do you know that the thing you wrote is true?

 

I'm not being sarcastic. I am treating you with the respect you deserve. If you are able to see this then you must be a very advanced devotee. On the other hand if you don't have a divine realization about this then what prompts you to make such bold statements? I would think it was EGO or BAD ASSOCIATION that makes someone say such things that are not known to be true. Nobody else I've ever heard of (of any substance) has ever come forward with this sort of statement so I'm asking you to prove what you wrote is true.

 

Certainly we know that Srila Govinda Dev Goswami Maharaj considers Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as his Guru and his senior, his mentor.

 

We have also heard Srila Prabhupada saying that Srila Sridhar Maharaj is "senior to me" but where do we find Srila Sridhar Maharaj saying that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami was "senior to me"?

 

This is a reasonable question. What is your answer?

 

Concoting a misconceived view of a divine relationship may suit some people but if you want to enter into the WORLD OF REALITY then try and understand the true nature of the relationship.

If you take Srila Prabhupada's public assessments as well as a one time public criticism/chastisement of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, and take the rest of the history of the Gaudiya Math from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta on, you can plainly see that Srila Prabhupada was senior by advancement. And if that doesn't do it for you, perhaps the saktavesa avatara routine would tip you off.

Thus by the combined mercy of their Gurus (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Sridhara Maharaja respectively), and their sadhu association (Srila Prabhupada), Srila Sridhara Maharaja made such advancement that Srila Prabhupada made indications in this regard toward the end of his appearance. And as for Srila Govinda Maharaja, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree as far as I can tell. One big happy family.

Hare Krsna

I don't know enough about cow behavior to say one way or another. Bhaktachris no doubt would know.

 

But his main point remains. If you are drinking commercial milk then you are involved in cow and calve slaughter. No way out of that one.

 

The Maharaja is saying that the emphasis should be on protecting cows and not on becoming vegan. If you are getting milk from protected cows, and can digest it, then go for it.

 

I was very happy to read this article from an Iskcon sannyasi.

The bolded statement is incorrect. If you are offering the commercial milk to the Lord that is.

Of course if someone is going to use this as an excuse to ignore the need for cow protection, or downplay the need to preach it, that would be ignorant.

Please accept my prostrate obeisances at your divine feet.

 

It is truly amazing that after so many lifetimes I have come in contact with such an exalted soul as you.

 

Your divine realization, in that you are able to detect who is a nitya-siddha and who is a sadhana-siddha, marks you out as one of the most exalted souls living on this earth today.

 

Koti dandavats to you, great Maha-Purusha soul.

 

All glory to His Divine Grace, anonymous sevabhakta!

 

Can you send me your photo so I can offer incense to you every day? Better still, could you please post your photo on this web site so all the fortunate souls can see your divine lotus face?

You misunderstand, whether they were nitya siddha or sadhana siddha, the grace and mercy still comes in the same manner, in the form of the mercy transmitted by the more advanced devotees who one serves the pleasure of. What I said was actually a glorification of them.

You read between the lines and extrapolated that I was labeling them as sadhana siddhas. Perhaps you should read the philosophy, check your witty sarcasm at the door, and then add to the discussion. Otherwise if you are just here to make offenses, there is plenty of opportunity for that too. Just criticise me, there is plenty to criticise, and you can have a full time job offending me if you really want it.

Hare Krsna

That argument cuts both ways and can be applied all the way up. Mahesh is using one personal letter of SP to build his theory that:

 

"the position of Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers was even lower than Kanistha Adhikari AFTER the departure of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura BECAUSE they lacked the brahmanical qualification of truthfulness as they PRETENDED to be Acarya."

 

There is a series of important logical errors in his "reasoning" but more importantly that theory contradicts many other statements Prabhupada made regarding his godbrothers. Frankly speaking the letter Mahesh is using as a key "argument" places Prabhupada in a very unfavorable light, but that is a different story altogether.

 

The reason such offensive and absurd theories are propagated by some of Prabhupada's disciples is because they feel threatened by success of other Vaishnava missions. It is the same cult mentality that permeated NV during Kirtanananda's reign there.

Well, I have been following Mahesh Raja's posts because of the valuable coalation of quotes and interesting deductions he usually makes.

Unfortunately, I missed the first paragraph in his latest article. Kulapavana points out his agenda there and I agree Mahesh is mistaken.

Neophytes make mistakes all the time. If they are directly disobeying their spiritual master with full awareness, then they are no longer under discipline but if they ever surrendered even a little bit, they are technically still under shelter of their spiritual master, even if seemingly from a distance.

I do agree that only by their surrender to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and association with Srila Prabhupada did Srila Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Govinda Maharaja make the advancement to perfection that they have.

That said, Mahesh's points in his recent slew of articles shed alot of light on who is qualified to do what, and what a ritvik is. Unfortunately his latest tactics backfired and he uses the wrong method to try and acheive his goal, while commiting offenses in the meantime.

Hare Krsna.

Looking at yet another bucket of garbage on Sampradaya Sun

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2278.htm

 

I am filled with even more disgust at this brand of Prabhupada's followers (this guy is yet another rabid ritvik).

 

This has nothing to do with Vaishnavism. This is pure personality cult and blind fanaticism. Shame on Rocana Prabhu for allowing such offensive material be posted for everyone to see. But Rocana himself is quite a cultist and it plays to his sentiment.

You are just jealous that your personality cult is a fizzle.

The only rabid disease is thinking oneself more qualified than one is. The best option is to follow the orders of the qualified spiritual master and figure he knows a thing or two more than you. This is Mahesh Raja's point as he zealously advocates for regulative principles by instruction of the acarya.

Srila Prabhupada ordered, via his Last Will, that all Iskcon properties would be directed only by his initiated disciples IN PERPETUITY.

Srila Prabhupada structured an entire management system whereby a team of disciples with varying degrees of qualification canvassed, mentored, recommended, and ritually initiated many persons who Srila Prabhupada never met.

Anyone who doesn't like that he left Iskcon with the system he did has no right to tinker with it, no matter what their excuse. If you are witnessing or participating with the people and activities of a group named Iskcon, you must realize that if they are not following the instructions of the Acarya and having success, there needs to be a change alright. Reinstitute the acarya's instructions. All of them. All Pancaratriki vidhi samskaras. 1st and 2nd initiations, the second of utmost importance as you will see below, and to be performed by ritviks on behalf of the acarya. That is if you really want to get the spiritual benefit of the Real Iskcon that Srila Prabhupada provided.

Chanting Hare Krsna from scratch is Bhagavata vidhi. For some people the name is sufficient, Krpa siddhi maybe, or they were already very advanced.

FOR THE REST OF US, Srila Prabhupada was explicit that Pancaratriki vidhi was to be followed simultaneously in order that we make spiritual advancement while performing Bhagavat vidhi of Sravana/Kirtana.

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SB 7.5.23-24 Purport:

The answer is that even though the chanting of the holy name is sufficient to enable one to progress in spiritual life to the standard of love of Godhead, one is nonetheless susceptible to contamination because of possessing a material body. Consequently, special stress is given to the arcana-vidhi. One should therefore regularly take advantage of both the bhägavata process and pancaratriki process.

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Teaching of Lord Kapila ch.15:

Thus there must be two activities. The Deities must be worshiped, and this is called pancaratriki-vidhi. There must also be bhagavata-vidhi, reading Srimad Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. pancaratriki-vidhi and bhagavata-vidhi go hand in hand. By participating in these two processes, the neophyte can gradually attain the intermediate stage.

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SB 8.12.10 Purport

For the present day, the pancaratriki-vidhi as enunciated by Narada Muni is the only hope. Srila Rupa Gosvami, therefore, has quoted the following verse from the Brahma-yamala:

sruti-smrti-puranadi-

pancaratra-vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir

utpatayaiva kalpate

[bRS 1.2.101]

“Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upanisads, puranas and Narada-pancaratra is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.101) Those who are very advanced in knowledge and are situated in the mode of goodness follow the Vedic instructions of the sruti and smrti and other religious scriptures, including the pancaratriki-vidhi. Without understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead in this way, one only creates a disturbance. In this age of Kali, so many gurus have sprung up, and because they do not refer to the sruti-smrti-puranadi-pancaratrika-vidhi [bRS 1.2.101], they are creating a great disturbance in the world in regard to understanding the Absolute Truth. However, those who follow the pancaratriki-vidhi under the guidance of a proper spiritual master can understand the Absolute Truth. It is said, pancaratrasya krtsnasya vakta tu bhagavan svayam: the pancaratra system is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just like Bhagavad-gita.

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CC Antya 7.76 Purport

Thus Narada, in his pancaratriki-vidhi, and other great sages have sometimes stressed that since every conditioned soul has a bodily concept of life aimed at sense enjoyment, to restrict this sense enjoyment the rules and regulations for worshiping the Deity in the temple are essential. Srila Rupa Gosvami has described that the holy name of the Lord can be chanted by liberated souls, but almost all the souls we have to initiate are conditioned. It is advised that one chant the holy name of the Lord without offenses and according to the regulative principles, yet due to their past bad habits they violate these rules and regulations. Thus the regulative principles for worship of the Deity are also simultaneously essential.

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The acarya prescribed the regulative principles for carrying out deity worship in his society, and one of them is 2nd initiation

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Thus if one is initiated by a proper person, he can be accepted as twice-born immediately. In our Krsna consciousness movement, we therefore offer the student his first initiation and allow him to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. By chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra regularly and following the regulative principles, one becomes qualified to be initiated as a brahmana, because unless one is a qualified brahmana he cannot be allowed to worship Lord Visnu. This is called yajnika janma. In our Krsna consciousness society, unless one is twice initiated—first by chanting Hare Krsna and second by the Gayatri mantra—he is not allowed to enter the kitchen or Deity room to execute duties. However, when one is elevated to the platform on which he can worship the Deity, his previous birth does not matter.

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Can't have Pancaratra vidhi without priests performing rituals, and Brahminical initation is included in there, and the Acarya called them ritviks.

Anyone who thinks that being a ritvik precludes a person from becoming a spiritual master is ill informed.

Ritvik ritvik ritvik. Nice ring to it.

Hare Krsna

I am surprised you turned ritvik, Mahaksa-ji...

 

So that is your solution? A ritvik system? You think ritvik representatives are immune from deviation and abuse of power? Give me a break... Deviations and serious abuse of power was happening even when SP was still here. Without him to stop it it would have been 10 times worse. You think that being called a ritvik as opposed to a regular guru would have stopped guys like Kirtanananda, Bhavs, or Hansadutta? This "solution" is a total joke, on top of being a deviation in itself. It is merely another MYTH of a "perfect solution".

Hare Krsna

Let's try looking at it this way.

There is no solution. Any system can and will be abused. Srila Prabhupada ordered Ritvik. You either follow him or you don't, that is all. You either follow his system and DONT CHEAT AND ABUSE IT, and make the best of it, or you concoct your own. Good luck with that.

And as for this piece by Mahak,

No, no mo rtvik discussion here, the title of this thread is Hare Krsna, this is where we only speak that which will bring us back home, back to Godhead, and maybe a few other things

 

Chanting Hare Krsna from scratch is Bhagavata vidhi. For some people the name is sufficient, Krpa siddhi maybe, or they were already very advanced.

FOR THE REST OF US, Srila Prabhupada was explicit that Pancaratriki vidhi was to be followed simultaneously in order that we make spiritual advancement while performing Bhagavat vidhi of Sravana/Kirtana.

SB 7.5.23-24 Purport:

 

The answer is that even though the chanting of the holy name is sufficient to enable one to progress in spiritual life to the standard of love of Godhead, one is nonetheless susceptible to contamination because of possessing a material body. Consequently, special stress is given to the arcana-vidhi. One should therefore regularly take advantage of both the bhägavata process and pancaratriki process.

 

Teaching of Lord Kapila ch.15:

Thus there must be two activities. The Deities must be worshiped, and this is called pancaratriki-vidhi. There must also be bhagavata-vidhi, reading Srimad Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. pancaratriki-vidhi and bhagavata-vidhi go hand in hand. By participating in these two processes, the neophyte can gradually attain the intermediate stage.

 

SB 8.12.10 Purport

For the present day, the pancaratriki-vidhi as enunciated by Narada Muni is the only hope. Srila Rupa Gosvami, therefore, has quoted the following verse from the Brahma-yamala:

sruti-smrti-puranadi-

pancaratra-vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir

utpatayaiva kalpate

[bRS 1.2.101]

“Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upanisads, puranas and Narada-pancaratra is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.101) Those who are very advanced in knowledge and are situated in the mode of goodness follow the Vedic instructions of the sruti and smrti and other religious scriptures, including the pancaratriki-vidhi. Without understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead in this way, one only creates a disturbance. In this age of Kali, so many gurus have sprung up, and because they do not refer to the sruti-smrti-puranadi-pancaratrika-vidhi [bRS 1.2.101], they are creating a great disturbance in the world in regard to understanding the Absolute Truth. However, those who follow the pancaratriki-vidhi under the guidance of a proper spiritual master can understand the Absolute Truth. It is said, pancaratrasya krtsnasya vakta tu bhagavan svayam: the pancaratra system is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just like Bhagavad-gita.

 

CC Antya 7.76 Purport

Thus Narada, in his pancaratriki-vidhi, and other great sages have sometimes stressed that since every conditioned soul has a bodily concept of life aimed at sense enjoyment, to restrict this sense enjoyment the rules and regulations for worshiping the Deity in the temple are essential. Srila Rupa Gosvami has described that the holy name of the Lord can be chanted by liberated souls, but almost all the souls we have to initiate are conditioned. It is advised that one chant the holy name of the Lord without offenses and according to the regulative principles, yet due to their past bad habits they violate these rules and regulations. Thus the regulative principles for worship of the Deity are also simultaneously essential.

 

The acarya prescribed the regulative principles for carrying out deity worship in his society, and one of them is 2nd initiation

SB 4.31.10 Purport.

Thus if one is initiated by a proper person, he can be accepted as twice-born immediately. In our Krsna consciousness movement, we therefore offer the student his first initiation and allow him to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. By chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra regularly and following the regulative principles, one becomes qualified to be initiated as a brahmana, because unless one is a qualified brahmana he cannot be allowed to worship Lord Visnu. This is called yajnika janma. In our Krsna consciousness society, unless one is twice initiated—first by chanting Hare Krsna and second by the Gayatri mantra—he is not allowed to enter the kitchen or Deity room to execute duties. However, when one is elevated to the platform on which he can worship the Deity, his previous birth does not matter.

 

Can't have Pancaratra vidhi without priests performing rituals, and Brahminical initation is included in there, and the Acarya called them ritviks.

Anyone who thinks that being a ritvik precludes a person from becoming a spiritual master is ill informed.

I suppose Tamal also falsified Srila Prabhupada's last will and testament to read that all property directors would be Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciples. Please.

Ritvik ritvik ritvik. Nice ring to it.

Hare Krsna

At the time Srila Prabhupada was addressing the issue, including his purport from the Srimad Bhagavatam, there were beings on this planet who could fly ships to the moon. He was not addressing them, he was addressing the bumbling fools in the US Govt and private sector team NASA who was claiming the thing.

NASA and the tin cans they were hurling up into the air did not qualify.

The official NASA footage and story was clearly and professionaly debunked via a video documentary showing factual evidence produced and distributed on the internet, saw it a little over a year ago back when I had high speed internet and could do such things.

Just another example of those in the know versus those in the slow.

Hare Krsna