sevabhakta

Words are very nice, but then there is reality which we can all observe and which helps us understand the real meaning of these words.

 

If Krsna really dictated Bhagavad-gita to Srila Prabhupada word for word as your interpretation implies then Krsna needed quite a bit of help to express Himself in proper English. And so on, and so forth...

 

By faith alone you can believe anything you like, but very few people will be CONVINCED by such faith alone, especially when observable facts counter your claims. Need I bring up the Moon distance for example?

 

You can easily say: the plan was perfect, only people which were to carry it out were unqualified. The truth is, if a plan does not take into consideration the limitations of the people who are going to carry it out then such a plan is anything but perfect.

 

So things like that help the rational people understand reality, instead of living in a fantasy land.

How convenient to a doubting Thomas to still be relying on the "reality" that we can all observe, all certainly alluding to all us conditioned jivas, who cannot rely on our senses of observation because of the 4 defects, don't forget about which philosophy we are using here, especially at such a crucial juncture.

Your use of ascribing the most extreme example of Krsna dictating every word of the Gita to my use of the word dictate is just a thinly veiled attempt to defeat me by a straw man arguement. And then to cry the "real meaning of the word" as Srila Prabhupada used it generally excludes another frequently used meaning and understanding of the word is facetious.

By faith alone? What about transcendental knowledge passed on as it is? What about the import of transcendental knowledge being revealed in a perceptable way to the illiterate who surrender to Guru?

Why throw out the transcendental aspect of things?

SB 3.26.30 Purport.

 

Doubt, misapprehension, correct apprehension, memory and sleep, as determined by their different functions, are said to be the distinct characteristics of intelligence.

PURPORT

Doubt is one of the important functions of intelligence; blind acceptance of something does not give evidence of intelligence. Therefore the word saàçaya is very important; in order to cultivate intelligence, one should be doubtful in the beginning. But doubting is not very favorable when information is received from the proper source. In Bhagavad-gétä the Lord says that doubting the words of the authority is the cause of destruction.

 

Don't let the fact that some guy cheated you allow yourself to be bitterly blinded to transcendental authority that you can accept "blindly" as you would say, to hell with your material vision, there are none so blind as those who choose their material perception to counter the Sastra.

The path of doubt is that of self destruction.

Especially to doubt the authority of Guru and sastra on a subject that you have only the second hand reporting of a group of tried and true atheistic scientists and politicians who relish in their four defects and twist a great percent of their so-called "conclusions" to fit propaganda efforts based upon fanatical pseudo-religious or plain sectarian facist domination schemes.

If you haven't gone to the moon, if you haven't experienced first hand some phenomenon, which someone swears to you is their experienced truth and it contradicts guru and sastra, and you just buy it as an excuse to continue to reject Guru, "see the Hofstra University PHD Joe Schmo has proved that the living conscious soul results from a mixture of chemicals".

I know you like to use extreme examples, but a defective vision is one which has at least one error, then the whole formula is useless right?

here is the key to understanding the use of the word "dictation" in Prabhupada's writings. It is used here in the general sense of "giving direction" and not "word for word dictation". that also squares off with observable reality and other statements SP makes where he refers to some statements as "his opinions", or even "educated guesses".

 

again, you are extrapolating meanings that were never intended.

Again, activities are not exclusively occuring in a vaccuum, unless you want to pretend they are to try to win an arguement.

You take one instance of the use of the word "dictation" where it is used to illustrate one facet of the nature of "dictation", meaning giving direction, and then extend that to be THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING THE USE OF THE WORD.

As if there is not one time where it is implied that it means "word for word dictation".

Which is a really weak position to take given all the evidence.

The dictates of Supersoul include hidden manipulations of energies on our behalf, subtle nudges and trickery to guide us when we are not conscious, faintly heard verbal confirmations or chastisements heard during deeply introspective moments regarding decisions we made, and yes, the Lord in the feature most dear to an advanced spiritual master will manifest to his transcendental senses and give personal dictation regarding whatever he sees fit due to his view of his own Lila.

It is truly gross misjudgement on your part to imply that the Supreme person who has a personally manifest relationship in the heart of the mindspace of a pure devotee cannot and does not utilize direct and conversational speech.

But this is what you seem to need to resort to in an attempt to stave off the inevitable. That I am right.

Say these words three times each and let it sink in. "Transparent Via Medium."

Then these words: "Under the direction of Madana Mohan."

Krsna's plan. Krsna's lila. Krsna's acarya. Krsna's acarya's societal system.

Krsna's Iskcon.

Or are we to become the devotees of the mysterious impersonal God substance within who guides our lives inconceivably without our knowing or understanding?

Prabhupada never presented himself as a ritvik, and in the entire Vedic tradition there is no connection between sacrificial functions of ritvija priests and guruship. You are simply spinning yarns of conjectures and extrapolations.

Some people have a hard time wrapping their conditioned mind around the concept of simultenaity. Which is that two phenomenon may both be manifesting at the same time.

The root cause of which is the Acintya bhedabehda tattva.

So Srila Prabhupada did not have to officially say anything.

He was an uttama preaching at the madhyama level. He did not have to tell anyone he was acting as the head brahmana of his society. Flexible minded people logically deduce such things.

A closed mind will always use a one or the other argument to defend a position.

And your statement is wrong as it stands anyway that there is no connection between sacrificial priests and guru ship.

It is not that all a person did was eat sleep mate defend and be a priest for sacrafices.

Qualified brahmana's had many varieites of duties, some qualified enough to be head priests. They performed most family samskara sacrifices yes. But they did so many other things, including to be the spiritual master or Guru of the all the Varnas, including directly instructing them in their spiritually based varna duties. A sanyassin brahmana was the spiritual master or guru of all the brahmanas, and orders of society, including the asramas.

Vaisnava 101.

It is inevitable that a qualified chaste brahmana who has the knowledge of the time to approach each family for all the different samskara yajnas, and respond to Royal invitation for collective yajnas (definition of Rtvij) gained that knowledge from his guru, and passes such along to the younger brahmanas, as GURU.

Srila Prabhupada also played the role of consummate statesman, shrewd businessman, able physical servant, and remained uttama adhikari Guru.

As explained previously by other posters, no Gaudiya Vaishnava "sects" especially those one or two generations removed from Gaudiya Math, view the origin of the soul as impersonal. They simply accept the version coming down in the parampara from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and that version is certainly not impersonal for the brahmajyoti is actually the effulgence eminating from the body or swarupa of the transcendental Lord. Everything must be viewed in the light of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's doctrine of acintya bheda (a)bheda tattva or the simultaneous oneness and difference of everything in Reality the Beautiful. The Fall From Goloka Theorists are mired in Dualism and therefore divorced from the real conception of divinity coming from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They mistake Srila Prabhupada's preaching to beginners who were trapped in either Judeo-Christian Dualism or classic impersonalism, and then juxtapose the clear statements in the Bhaktivedanta purports to concoct the Sleeper-Vadi (dualistic) Theory.

Nice synopsis.

Gaura Hari Bol!

I have never visited India but I studied a very wide range of Vedic writings for about 30 years. What I wrote about the hotri and his ritviks is the general system used during large, formal sacrifices in the classical Vedic period.

Well, lets stick with the Cheif Sattvika Purana as authority, and the Sanskrit dictionary as back up.

Great, so according to the Bhagavatam and the Sanskrit dictionary, the Hotri is one of four ritviks, though perhaps he holds the key function being the most qualified to be transparent to the highest dimension of blessing power which unbinds the samskara.

SB 7.3.30 Purport

 

The Vedic ritualistic ceremonies, the knowledge thereof, and the person who agrees to perform them are inspired by the Supreme Soul. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita, mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca: [bg. 15.15] from the Lord come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. The Supersoul is situated in everyone’s heart (sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ’rjuna tisthati [bg. 18.61]), and when one is advanced in Vedic knowledge, the Supersoul gives him directions. Acting as Supersoul, the Lord gives inspiration to a suitable person to perform the Vedic ritualistic ceremonies. In this connection, four classes of priests, known as rtvik, are required. They are mentioned as hota, adhvaryu, brahma and udgata.

 

In the text of SB 9.1.15 we see that during the Sraddha sacrifice for Manu to have sons, Vasistha was considered the family priest (adhvaryuna) And Srila Prabhupada (dictated by Krsna) called him Ritvik in charge of Telling the Hotri priest what to do, or thus the Cheif priest of the sacrifice.

presito ’dhvaryuna hota

vyacarat tat samahitah

grhite havisi vaca

vasat-karam grnan dvijah

SYNONYMS

presitah—being told to execute the sacrifice; adhvaryuna—by the rtvik priest; hota—the priest in charge of offering oblations; vyacarat—executed; tat—that (sacrifice); samahitah—with great attention; grhite havisi—upon taking the clarified butter for the first oblation; vaca—by chanting the mantra; vasat-karam—the mantra beginning with the word vasat; grnan—reciting; dvijah—the brahmana.

TRANSLATION

Told by the chief priest “Now offer oblations,” the person in charge of oblations took clarified butter to offer. He then remembered the request of Manu’s wife and performed the sacrifice while chanting the word “vasat.”

 

As you may recall from my previous post, according to the Sanskrit dictionary, the Ritvik is known by his state of Rtvij, or empowerment to know the proper time to initiate the sacrifice.

<TABLE cellSpacing=3><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top>Rtvij</TD><TD vAlign=top>mfn. (fr. %{yaj}) , sacrificing at the proper time , sacrificing regularly ; </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

And who is qualified to know such things? The Head Ritvik of any sacrifice is a qualified as a brahmana according to the standards of the most recent....

Acarya. Ideal teacher and preacher who revives God Consciousness in a sleeping population, often by using the divine lord's system of engaging those he is teaching by organizing them according to guna and karma so they may dovetail their personal tendencies in a sacrifical way.

The acarya makes the first sacrifice. He comes to the Madhayma platform and plays the brahminical role of the Supreme Lord Krsna's ritvik by offering the results of each formal sacrifice he performs to Lord Visnu or Krsna through the Cheif Ritvik of Lord visnu, Agni Hotra Prabhu, and this by the authority of his Spiritual Master Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, who he represented in essence by implementing Srila Bhaktisiddhantas exact sadhana system, give or take a few adjustments for the entrance fee.

After leaving behind the debacle of his godbrother's lack of chastity to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's order, he took the essential structure west, and installed that Daivi Varnasrama Style Matha as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's ritvik, and took full charge of the role of Hotri during the formal introduction, creation, and maintenance of the new Iskcon matha society he founded and headed up as a Madhyama preacher.

His most qualified brahminical men are to represent him in this regard, and his order was to stay as ritvik while serving in Iskcon.

All speculation and opinions aside, this is backed up by Guru, Sastra, and quite a few Sadhu's I might add.

Hare Krsna

That is not how I see it. There is no scriptural basis to believe that whatever SP did or said was dictated by Krsna. He did not say such a thing either. You are simply extrapolating some narrow statements into the realm of pure fantasy.

Perhaps instead of how "you" see it, see it through the eyes of sastra.

Antya 5.71

PURPORT

One is forbidden to accept the guru, or spiritual master, as an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih). When Ramananda Raya spoke to Pradyumna Misra, Pradyumna Misra could understand that Ramananda Raya was not an ordinary human being. A spiritually advanced person who acts with authority, as the spiritual master, speaks as the Supreme Personality of Godhead dictates from within. Thus it is not he that is personally speaking. When a pure devotee or spiritual master speaks, what he says should be accepted as having been directly spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the parampara system.

CC Adi 8.78

TEXT

ei grantha lekhaya more 'madana-mohana'

amara likhana yena sukera pathana

SYNONYMS

ei—this; grantha—great scripture; lekhaya—causes me to write; more—unto me; madana-mohana—the Deity; amara—my; likhana—writing; yena—like; sukera—of the parrot; pathana—responding.

TRANSLATION

Actually Sri Caitanya-caritamrta is not my writing but the dictation of Sri Madana-mohana. My writing is like the repetition of a parrot.

PURPORT

This should be the attitude of all devotees. When the Supreme Personality of Godhead recognizes a devotee, He gives him intelligence and dictates how he may go back home, back to Godhead. This is confirmed in Srimad Bhagavad-gita (10.10):

tesam satata-yuktanam

bhajatam priti-purvakam

dadami buddhi-yogam tam

yena mam upayanti te

"To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me." The opportunity to engage in the transcendental loving service of the Lord is open to everyone because every living entity is constitutionally a servant of the Lord. To engage in the service of the Lord is the natural function of the living entity, but because he is covered by the influence of maya, the material energy, he thinks it to be a very difficult task.

But if he places himself under the guidance of a spiritual master and does everything sincerely, immediately the Lord, who is situated within everyone's heart, dictates how to serve Him (dadami buddhi-yogam tam). The Lord gives this direction, and thus the devotee's life becomes perfect. Whatever a pure devotee does is done by the dictation of the Supreme Lord. Thus it is confirmed by the author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta that whatever he wrote was written under the direction of the Sri Madana-mohana Deity.

SB 13.15.45 Purport

A person in full Krsna consciousness acts by the dictation of Krsna. In the beginning of Krsna consciousness, dictation is received through the transparent medium of the spiritual master. When one is sufficiently trained and acts in submissive faith and love for Krsna under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master, the dovetailing process becomes more firm and accurate. This stage of devotional service by the devotee in Krsna consciousness is the most perfect stage of the yoga system. At this stage, Krsna, or the Supersoul, dictates from within, while from without the devotee is helped by the spiritual master, who is the bona fide representative of Krsna. From within He helps the devotee as caitya, for He is seated within the heart of everyone. Understanding that God is seated within everyone’s heart is not, however, sufficient. One has to be acquainted with God from both within and without, and one must take dictation from within and without to act in Krsna consciousness. This is the highest perfectional stage of the human form of life and the topmost perfection of all yoga.

SSR Ch. 5, snippet:

From the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita we learn very clearly that Arjuna in the beginning did not want to fight with his relatives, but after understanding the Bhagavad-gita, when he dovetailed his consciousness with the superconsciousness of Krsna, his consciousness was Krsna consciousness. A person in full Krsna consciousness acts by the dictation of Krsna, and so Arjuna agreed to fight the Battle of Kuruksetra.

In the beginning of Krsna consciousness this dictation of the Lord is received through the transparent medium of the spiritual master. When one is sufficiently trained and acts with submissive faith and love for Krsna, under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master, the dovetailing process becomes more firm and accurate. At this stage Krsna dictates from within. From without, the devotee is helped by the spiritual master, the bona fide representative of Krsna, and from within the Lord helps the devotee as caitya-guru, being seated within the heart of everyone.

Back to Basics?

Never to late.

Hari Bol

Prabhupada did not install real brahmanas in the positions of power in his society. Who among the 11 was a real brahmana? Some of these devotees had brahminical tendencies but most of them were likely just ambitious vaishyas. He generally surrounded himself with very ambitious and driven disciples - perheps they were the ones most likely to accomplish big material things (collecting money and building temples) but also they were the ones most likely to go astray on a power trip. And that is precisely what happened. To call that a perfect system is a misunderstanding. That is the point I have been trying to make.

You are correct that the persons appointed to the positions created used their free will to fall from their appointed rounds. As you say, some had brahminical tendencies, and also, as we know, this in no way assures chastity to discipline.

But the true legacy, for those with the ears to hear what the eyes read, is the perfected system which can always be taken up, Vaidhi and eventually Raganuga Bhakti Yoga Sadhana through the Sadhana vehicle of Iskcon's Daivi Varnasrama Sankirtana Movement as conceived, introduced, arranged, and executed by Sri Nityananda Prabhu himself, through his transparent representative.

It is sad to think of how many souls have been diverted from taking up the functions in Srila Prabhupada's eternal house of sadhana, due to the shennanigans of hooligans, but those with deep desire will be given the intelligence to see that Srila Prabhupada's offering of a direct path to pure devotional service through DVD style Sankirtana Yajna, and will immediately recognize the other disciples of Srila Prabhupada who were not just already on board, but had actually just pulled that Prabhu on the boat, from the whilrpool of poisonous emotional reactions to the Sinister Scoundrels.

Local control, GBC as someone you love to see, Acarya at the center, who points us always to the lotus feet of Sri Sri Gaura Nitai, and Sri Sri Radha Krsna.

Would Krsna dictate any less of a plan to his humble Acarya?

The real question is, are there any takers with the stuff to do it justice?

Bolo Hari

Actually, the most important priest during every sacrifice was the hotri priest (the one pouring oblations and chanting the sacrificial mantras). the ritvija priests (corrupted into "ritviks") were the ones sitting in four corners of the sacrificial arena, reciting Vedic hymns and providing general asistance to the hotri in preparation of the sacrifice - that is seen even in the fire yajnas in Iskcon. A hotri priest was retained by the person ordering the sacrifice. The initiation (upanayana) was usually a much smaller ceremony performed by the family guru himself.

 

Thus your claim to any link between the ancient use of ritvija brahmanas and post-samadhi initiations on behalf of a departed guru are 100% bogus.

No, If I have to look it up I will, but forget what you think you know from visiting India and immersing yourself in its "culture", and read the bhagavatam searching; (rtvik, rtvij, rtv) and then the online sanskrit definitions of rittvik, rittik, rtvij, and all other priestly titles, including that of the family priest (atharvani or kulavipra or even purohita).

Actually most properly, according to the Sanskrit lexicon, the rtvik is a priest in the state of being rtvij. The purohita is closer to the definition of the Temple Presidents job in the matter. The rtvik is the head priest, or the Hotri, of the sacrifice, as well as the other 4 main are considered rtvik, but they are guided by the Hotri. Formality.

In the Bhagavatam, don't have time to find the quote, he is considered the representative of the acarya in the offering to Lord Visnu.

<TABLE cellSpacing=3><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>1</TD><TD vAlign=top>Rtvik</TD><TD vAlign=top>(in comp. for %{Rtvi4j} below) ; %{-tva} n. the state of being a R2itvij or priest Ta1n2d2yaBr. ; %{-patha} m. the path of the priest on the sacrificial ground La1t2y. ; %{-phala} n. the reward of a priest Jaim</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE cellSpacing=3><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top>Rtvij</TD><TD vAlign=top>mfn. (fr. %{yaj}) , sacrificing at the proper time , sacrificing regularly ; (%{k}) m. a priest (usually four are enumerated , viz. Hotr2i , Adhvaryu , Brahman , and Udga1tr2i ; each of them has three companions or helpers , so that the total number is sixteen , viz. %{hotR} , Maitra1varun2a , Accha1va1ka , Gra1va-stut ; %{adhvaryu} , Prati-prastha1tr2i , Nesht2r2i , Un-netr2i ; %{brahman} , Bra1hman2a1cchan6sin , Agni1dhra , Potr2i ; %{udgAtR} , Prastotr2i , Pratihartr2i , Subrahman2ya A1s3vS3r. iv , 1 , 4-6) RV. AV. TS. S3Br. Ka1tyS3r. &c.

So the most relevent definition of family priest is actually purohita, which is...

<TABLE cellSpacing=3><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>8

</TD><TD vAlign=top>purohita</TD><TD vAlign=top>(%{puro-}.) mfn. placed foremost or in front , charged , commissioned , appointed ; m. one holding a charge or commission , an agent ; (esp.) a family priest , a domestic chaplain RV. &c. &c. (RTL. 352 &c.) ; %{-karman} n. N. of 3rd Paris3. of AV. ; %{-tva} n. the rank of a Purohita MBh.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

There was never anything like that in the past yugas...

 

Anyway, we are beating a dead horse (not to be confused with the aswhamedha-yajna)

Well, on that one point I may be somewhat in the realm of speculation as to which samskara yajna was considered diksa initiation in past yugas and who received it (likely all young dvija-bandhu males) but certainly all sacrifices, for whatever samskara (individual or collective), were performed by priests, and they were often known as ritvks, and they always represented whoever was the last incarnation of acarya potency to give the system. Look it up. It is in the Bhagavatam, and the sankrit dictionary helps delineate the different categories of ritviks.

I notice that you jump on the only abstractly questionable thing I wrote and disregard the rest, resorting to the dead horse excuse to bow out. That is ok. I didn't know it was so bad. But just know I will kick on anyone's horse-like mind who contradicts the acarya on this forum, as long as they show a glimmer of life/hope.

Please accept my worthless blessings and obeisances.

In my book that would constitute an idisputable proof that the system introduced by Prabhupada failed because there was no check and balance system to prevent this type of abuse of power by his representatives. That system would have also failed because regular devotees were not trained to recognize the fraud and had no means to rectify the situation.

 

All that of course assumes that SP did intend to introduce the post-samadhi ritvik system - a belief which I do not share with you.

Did he intend to do what he did? Lets leave that back in high school. Anyway, I explained perfectly how it was no different than the System that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu dispensed to his mixed disciples. Blame him for starting the "new Gaudiya tradition" of institutionalized Daivi Varnasrama Dharma wherein senior qualified brahmin priests would perform formal diksa sacrifice on behalf of the Acarya, just like past yugas. Iskcon was the Gaudiya Matha, GBC and priestly reps and all, just spelled out in more detail for our advantage, which we needed by the way. Acarya in the center like it or leave it. Srila Prabhupada left and formed the exact same thing. Hmmph, wonder about that.

They both wanted to see souls perform those rituals with the essence in their heart, so that they would come alive with meaning. It will happen.

The problem is that when meditating on this subject, sometimes folks forget that Srila Prabhupada introduced the ritvik system along side introducing and demanding a calculated categorizing of Iskcon's members by guna and Karma, a.k.a Daivi Varnasrama Dharma, but the fools were already such highly elevated Vaisnavas they could not wrap their head around such an order from their Spiritual Master, or perhaps they were just not brahminically inclined to understand such, but i digress from the essential point which is that tying in the insistent preaching and ordering of varnasrama from 74-77, we can see how what KRSNA dictated was a Satya Yuga style Brahminically headed heirarchy, and I assume all here are aware of the standard role of qualified priests to represent the Acarya at sacrifices. Remember the Diksa initiation may have occured in reality before the formal ceremony, or may occur lifetimes after, but the ceremony is still ordered performed by the Acarya, for the neophytes, like us, what mercy.

On to the issue of Checks and Balances which were perfectly manifest in the Official Iskcon system due to Srila Prabhupada's expert crafting of his brahminical and managerial heirarchies, yet they were only made to function fruitively when used by the honest and sincere to keep themselves that way.

His system, nay ANY system which touches material management will have another affect on the Earth when in the hands of demoniac atheists.

He worked with who Krsna gave him. He set the example with us. You actually once were serving, even if only in some small way, the speculative exploits of a deluded neophyte upon material creation, and called him Diksa Guru. I have my story. Srila Prabhupada gave the system to all us fallen souls in the west, and he accounted for the least common denominator, which if we are honest is not exactly far from the average qualification we each carry.

And it was Krsna's system anyway, and he sent largely naive, barely responsible people into this system and somehow someway by his Grace and the Grace of his compassionate servant Srila Prabhupada, a Sankirtana movement occured.

And when he left the scene he left the decision to continue to follow and maybe maintain the edge between what success there was and total meltdown, and we know the choice that was made, but hey don't you think Krsna, who dictated the whole thing, knew exactly who each of us were and how to organize us, taking into consideration myriad aspects of our individual karmic adjustments and other things we could not possibly handle ourselves.?

It may seem convenient at present for us to remain seperate, maintaining ourselves on the Karmi dole, but truly we can only make the type of advancement which would please Srila Prabhupada and ourselves when we remove any blocks to our ability to recognize who we must associate with regularly, who is above us and who below us, by deeply admitting our own mixed devotional motivations as, at best, 2nd class devotees, and look to the prescription from the most recent Sakta-vesa Acarya to see how to structure our Vaisnava societal interactions in order to dovetail most nicely and purify our desires until they are only for Pure Bhakti proper.

This part of the presecription had to do with living communally and ultimately over time keeping spiritual community and karmi community seperate, except for trade and evangelism (Harinama parties and prasadam distribution).

What might help us is if we can just remember that we didn't have a clue, except for maybe embodying a few agnostic civilized principles, on how to structure and maintain a brahminical community of the highest order in 10 years amidst a sea of voidism and impersonalism during a Kali Yuga, amidst race wars, government corruption, and general satanic mayhem.

This is the shoe i beat my mind with, and from my progress I see in my life, it helps.

Hari Bol!

Prabhu, during that time people had faith in Prabhupada and wanted to believe that the system (for both initiations and management) he put in place was perfect and complete. It was all based on faith and promises. Things continued in that way even for a few years after Srila Prabhupada's departure from this world. However, with time it became quite clear that this system is very prone to all kinds of abuse and provides very little accountability from the leaders. As a consequence devotees left Iskcon in droves and the faith in the leadership and the system in general plumeted.

Prabhu, history shows that the moment Srila Prabhupada left, those only appointed to be Ritvik representatives of the Acarya decided to self appoint themselves as Good as God Mahabhagavat Acaryas.

Thus the blessing of the Acarya was severed. The so called initiations that continued from there were perverted.

If there were any madhyamas or kanisthas among the group, they would not have disobeyed their spiritual master. Unless they were mislead by the Sinister ones as to what Srila Prabhupada's exact orders for the future were.

I intuit that some were like that, loyal but naive, and believed in some "tradition" arguement, and "assumed" the position of uttama zonal acarya with the thought that this is naturally what they should do in Srila Prabhupada's absence, and hey, the leading (sinister) men confirmed it.

For instance, Tamal declared in Topanga Canyon that they had disobeyed Srila Prabhupada and that they were only supposed to be ritvik reps.

Was he only playing a show of just waking up to that, was he playing a show of conscience in hindsight, or was he just playing his last ace?

Point is that while Prabhupada was there, NOONE bucked the system, all disciples were officially his, and Srila Prabhupada continued to encourage them to be his ritvik and expand their field.

These are undisputed historical facts.

All ecclesiastical systems, including Varnasrama Dharma are prone to abuse, none more than another, free will is the key.

The tradition since Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is institutional Matha style sadhana.

Before that, it was nitya siddhas putting on a show, enjoying lila, and showing us what WE could expect when we surrendered to an acarya and completed our sadhana. Lifetime after lifetime of being an advanced devotee, advancing eternally in MahaPrabhu's lila.

Being exposed to their example is no license to IMITATE. We are to understand the methods and examples of past acaryas and spiritual masters through the CURRENT acarya, and follow his orders.

I hope this rings a bell. You have forever to continue where you left off. Place your faith in Srila Prabhupada and damn those fools who tried to fool you.

Jaya Nitai!

To call the way Iskcon was managed in Prabhupada's times "simple and effective managerial matter which had already been in use perfectly for years" is truly laughable. The abuse of power was rampant, the abuse of devotees was rampant, the fraud was rampant (in some places our movement has even been turned into a true criminal enterprise). If this is perfection I hate to think what would constitute a failure in your book. Among the 11 appointees we had practicing homosexuals and pedofiles, drug abusers, and power trip junkies. Oh... that was such a perfect system...

 

I did place a lot of faith in what you call a "less than faithful servant of Srila Prabhupada". Fortunately, I never believed Iskcon guru myths and fairy tales and placed most of my faith in Krsna, our tradition and guru-parampara in general. Others were not so lucky. One of my godbrothers committed a suicide shortly after our guru fell down. A suicide of another one a couple years later was likely connected to the sense of betrayal as well.

 

You have to be very careful when you are telling people to believe in fairy tales because some people will take you seriously and when they realize they have been duped, there is no telling what they will do. When you tell people "a guru is as good as God" and all of a sudden the guru turns out to be "as good as dog" some people even turn violent. Remember what happened to Jayatirtha and Kirtanananda?

 

Anyway, you seem to be a nice devotee and I apologize if I offended your sentiments. I'm not cynical. I practice KC every day, and every day I perform service. I'm very optimistic about the future of our movement - but I just dont believe in fairy tales

Hari Bol

I say it was simple and effective because Srila Prabhupada and Krsna made it work. Despite a handful of serious and criminal deviations, which started way before Srila Prabhupada began giving Ritvik diksa, most nonsense remained in the minds of his disciples and did not manifest due to their awe and fear of Prabhupada.

The initiation system was ritvik for years, and it worked. That is what I referred to as simple and effective. Just check the log books to see how many people were "formally initiated" during 75-77.

Institution means formality.

Civilization means formality. Even the athiests use formality effectively.

The melding of formality and essence is an individual affair.

The system worked fine. Any system can be abused. Every system will be abused.

That was my point.

Thanks for the advice, but I would never tell anyone "a guru is as good as god", because I am shmart enough to qualify that statement if the need arose to even use it. First I would use Srila Prabhupada's purport where he condemns Mahdyama and Kanistha guru's as insufficient. Then I would quote where he warns only to accept an uttama adhikari as ones eternal spiritual master. Then, as you know, there is much more to say on the subject that would glorify the uttama, and not lend to anyone's downfall. And yes, such a one is as good as God.

You have great potential as a leader. Potential in this sense can only be realized when one like us accepts a greater authority than our middling relationship with supersoul. As a matter of fact, Supersoul, and others who have a thicker relationship than us with him, are guiding us back to the Acharya. Once old wounds heal, I find Srila Prabhupada's instructions even more glaringly perfect than before.

As far as those who tend to emphasize that it is easier to relate with Paramatma within before surrendering fully to him without (cough, Theist, cough cough), should look up what the Acharya's have to say about it.

No-one gets full time dictation without having fully surrendered to the external manifestation of supersoul called the Spiritual master.

That is the good as god one by the way. Like Srila Prabhupada.

Thanks for your kind words, and may Krsna bless you always.

Hare Krsna

To back up what Theist is saying, one can skim Zetatalk.com, and find out what these bigtime genetic planners have in store once they manufacture a few earth changes and race wars.

They are for real, most of their predictive analysis has been spot on over the years. They say it is because they are very advanced and telepathic.

Some believe it is because they are very advanced and actually the puppet masters pulling the strings on the marionette called the sheeple.

Either way, Srila Prabhupada said that "the preaching would be better after the war". And that the flashpoint would be Pakistan \ India in 2007-2008.

I hope y'all have some seed stored.

Hare Krsna

You take me way too seriously

 

My point is that Srila Prabhupada could not be expected to specifically counter every ridiculous notion.

 

While you make a somewhat reasonable case for your position, I simply cannot accept it.

 

Rather, I tend to agree with Kulapavana Prabhu's analysis. I doubt Srila Prabhupada would have intended to make such a radical change from Gaudiya tradition without making that change perfectly and undisputably clear. To my admittedly narrow vision, that was not done.

 

I'm no expert on Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, but I feel like I know a few.

Perhaps Murali, if you took spiritual discussions more seriously, we would have some accord.

Guru is grave.

For example if you are as you say "no expert on Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition", how can you possibly feel qualified to offer an opinion in spiritual circles on the most contentious issue going? Not only that but one in which the only written and audio proof is that the system stands as ordered, despite what Anal lysis Kulapavana can dredge up from his conditioned mind.

I suppose I should chastise myself for getting involved with people who are not serious enough. Bad on me.

All this speculation regarding what Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition is in regards to how parampara succeeds from disciple to disciple is exactly that.

If Srila Prabhupada's ORIGINAL Books are read and and then that overall context used while specifically perusing to understand how transcendental knowledge and the bhakti lata bija are successfully passed along, one will find that Srila Prabhupada's system of utilizing others to represent his will in any matter, purely spiritual or in mixed devotion (ecclesiastical), is exactly what the "tradition" is.

He never banned any one of his disciples from becoming a mahabhagavat acharya in his own right, one who could offer unique sadhana like Sri Nityananda avadhuta according to desa kala patra.

Remember, in all the lineage Srila Prabhupada and Sridhara Maharaja introduced you to starting with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's advent to revive Krsna Consciousness through Sankirtana, there was no mixed sadhana (institutional) offered until Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja formed the Gaudiya Matha.

In ages past, the Acharya was an avatar or incarnation such as Brahma, Kapila, or some other empowered Rsi etc. All the Brahmana's were his representatives and Ritviks were considered the highest ecclesiastical (mixed devotion) position. They represented the Acharya in sacrifices. This is the meaning of Ritvik, look it up, many many instances in Bhagavatam.

In this age, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta saw the fallen condition of his disciples, and said, look, you are mixed and motivated though you think you are so great, use this institution to engage and dovetail your material tendencies.

They didn't. They splintered, some looking to use Gaudiya Matha property, physical and intellectual as the new Acharya, some splintering to form their own movements.

Now, to compare the westerners Srila Prabhupada attracted to the highly elevated though still mixed devotional disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is almost apples and oranges if you know what I mean.

We needed an institution to dovetail our hard core material tendencies. The teenie tiny ajata sukrti or previous pious credits we had was just enough to warrant a chance at assisting Srila Prabhupada in his Sankirtana duties.

Suffice it to say, that the tradition never included a scenario where institutional sadhana had to be offered to mixed and impious though fortunate neophyte devotees.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said, keep things as they are, form a GBC and represent me.

Srila Prabhupada said keep things as they are, I choose the best of the GBC and senior men to represent me in initiating, and that is that.

Iskcon is HIS institution.

Anyone who thinks they are so advanced would of course have his blessing to start their own. And lets just say that as we have seen, westerners NEED institutional structure, or else they cannot regulate their bowels let alone their lust and envy.

So why do all these advanced disciples have to mangle his institution? Ruin and sell off his properties. Mangle his books.

Those who can't leave His alone will suffer greatly in the Final Analysis.

You are smarter than this Murali, it is just that you want to get along. Be strong.

Hare Krsna

Why is it absurd? Srila Prabhupada tried introducing chanting of 64 rounds to his disciples for example. That did not work so he settled for 16 rounds. Of course you can chant 64 rounds if you "follow his instructions exactly". The problem is that practically nobody can follow such instructions in the long run, thus the instructions have to be modified. Sometimes it takes a few years to evaluate whether an instruction is practical or not. You judge by the results - that is also Prabhupada's instruction.

 

You say: "If the Acharya ordered a system implemented, and was explicit in the detailed instructions of execution, then it is practical if you can get out of your false ego and just do it."

 

No, it does not mean that such a system is practical. That is merely your belief. Things are practical if they actually work as promised and lead to the intended result. That is a definition of "practical".

 

Prabhupada said you can maintain yourself by living on one acre of land and having one cow. Ever tried doing just that? You should. It would sober you up. Otherwise you will simply live in make-believe world.

Srila Prabhupada changed according to the DICTATES OF KRSNA.

What he didn't change, KRSNA THOUGHT WAS PRACTICABLE.

You are not Krsna. No one but the Acharya has the authority to change an instruction.

For you to compare reducing the number of rounds required to a simple and effective managerial matter which had already been in use perfectly for years is laughable anyway.

Merely my belief? Hah! It is called faith. But you don't yet understand that and I fully understand with compassion for you since you placed faith in a less than faithful servant of Srila Prabhupada. I did also once, to a lesser degree than you but I don't say that to hang over your head but to smack you up the head with it. Get over it. The acharya takes dictation from Krsna. Haricash did not.

And for your information smart guy, I live on one acre, and get almost all my food from it, and have only been farming it for 8 months. The cow is another story, still don't have one, but I trained under the best cow protector in the Northeast U.S.A., his space saving pasture rotation methods are simple genius, and if Prabhupada said it can be done I will show it.

Sorry you are having such a tough time, but it will get better, you are just very skeptical and careful, but don't let it end up in cynicism or it will be hard to dig out.

Hare Krsna

Can you show me just *one* place where Srila Prabhupada said that we shouldn't accept Mickey Mouse as our personal Lord and Savior???

 

Just one??

 

Srila Prabhupada *never* forbade us from accepting Mickey as our Lord and Savior!

Please, Srila Prabhupada specifically ordered the his representatives to continue ritvik initiation as they had been and simply increased the number of "zonal ritviks".

This in direct response to the question by leading GBC, "how shall we manage 1st and 2nd initiations after you are no longer with us."

This is what Guruvani meant.

If ANY of the Zoned out Acharyas/GBC/Neophytes had evidence that Srila Prabhupada countermanded this order, can you believe they would have not purchased airplanes and wrote it in the sky over every continent?

Broaden your vision. Srila Prabhupada used representatives in the form of Temple presidents and senior disciples to do the work of the Acharya, by living with candidates for 6 months to a year and let them evaluate their sincerity and capabilities. And he confirmed this process eternally within the Caitanya Caritamrta.

Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 24.330:

 

• "Similarly, a disciple's qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana."

 

So, Murali, the Ritvik representatives Srila Prabhupada chose were already the most senior disciples, who were to be the people travelling to temples making sure spiritual standards were kept by the Temple Presidents, and if so, simply give Kirtana, class, and on to the next temple.

The ritvik's only power was to say yes or no to a TP's recommendation. And if they had no good reason to say no, and yet did so due to some personal issue with the TP, I am sure the TP would fight for the person they considered a qualified candidate.

Of course with the WHOLE GBC corrupted, what higher body to appeal to? This is why Nimai Pandit Dasa had the Long Island County Superior Court Judge ban the GBC from his temple.

The funny thing is that it was all black and white, and people who had no clue as to what Krsna or Gaudiya Vaisnavism was before Prabhupada came to America, are now experts on the "tradition" and are willing to publically denounce the facts of Iskcon's founder acharya's vision for his divine institution.

Srila Prabhupada never banned anyone from starting their own gig. He just did not want a bunch of ambitious fools ripping his institution into oblivion.

And devotees like you draw their imaginary line somewhere else...

 

It is not that we say post-samadhi ritvik "cannot work". What is the practical criteria to evaluate such a non-traditional system? In other words: How can you actually verify it is actually "working"? The system used by the Vaishnavas up to this point was verified over the centuries as effective. That is not the case with the ritvik system. Just because you say it was invented by Prabhupada does not make it proven or effective. The gurukula system Prabhupada introduced proved to be a practical failure for example. That is a fact.

 

It is not a matter of imagining anything: be it a success or a failure. It is a matter of verifiable performance of such new introductions.

Hare Krsna!

It is quite absurd to imagine that Srila Prabhupada introduced anything that could not be practiced into practicality as long as the instructions were followed exactly.

It is quite absurd to insinuate that Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai , the origin of all Gurus, would deliver any system through his transparent via medium (Mahabhagavat Acharya) that is not practicable.

He allows for free-will. Thus the potential and evidentially the manifestation of failure.

This is actually a basic and simple transcendental axiom which some who post here have never been able to wrap their heart around.

It is for those persons to decide which unwanted creeper in their garden is preventing them from recognizing the essentiality of an Acharya's instructions and PULL THAT WEED OUT ALREADY.

The practical criteria to evaluate a system implemented by a perfectly transparent via medium to Sri Nityananda Balarama is as follows.

If the Acharya ordered a system implemented, and was explicit in the detailed instructions of execution, then it is practical if you can get out of your false ego and just do it. If you even subtly twist one thing to your own speculative advantage, this spells doom.

SB: 3.15.45 - Purport

 

A person in full Krsna consciousness acts by the dictation of Krsna. In the beginning of Krsna consciousness, dictation is received through the transparent medium of the spiritual master. When one is sufficiently trained and acts in submissive faith and love for Krsna under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master, the dovetailing process becomes more firm and accurate.

 

In other words, first learn to crawl. Then walking. Then running.

We are not talking about the CEO of a mundane corporate institution taking some latitude due to the confidence of the mundane board who hired him.

We are talking about a spiritually based approach to mundane lifestyle. And when we meet the Acharya we don't understand the spiritually based approach yet. Thus we listen to him to understand. It is not some new age hokey "remembering" or such nonsense. We must be submissive to the same extreme that we came to the Acharya. Extremely ignorant.

Then, maybe, we can execute one of his spiritual plans.

Otherwise we are just perpetuating whatever degree of speculative acumen we have aquired by guna and karma (pre-Bhakti realization), by applying it to a Bhakti Acharya's Fully Spiritual Plan, and thus will remain outside the realm of SUCCESS in Sadhana Bhakti, but will perhaps build up a cute little Neophyte cult for Mahadeva to demolish sometime in the near future.

Caveat Emptor.

Be Smarter than the Sky Pirates. Fly Swami Bhaktivedanta Airlines to your ultimate destination, Back to Godhead.

Jaya Prabhupada!

His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had the potency, and the prescription, for the only form of Varnasrama Dharma which is even possible for a group of people to manifest amongst this demonically civilized society in Kali Yuga.

His carefully outlined and detailed plan was given to his disciples to implement DAIVI Varnasrama Dharma. With an emphasis on Yukta Vairagya within the Harinama Sankirtana Mission.

He shared his wisdom regarding how to take any person, from any age group, and conditioning from any walk of life, and engage them in some meaningful way in the Sankirtana Movement/Iskcon society.

Only by their free will was any instruction followed and this is how it shall ever be.

His prescription for how each local temple was to function toward the goal of perpetuating local harinamas, prasadam and book distribution, regular temple worship programs, and the integration of the grhasta ashrama via independent farm communities, is still a blueprint for anyone to follow.

Those who can represent Srila Prabhupada's conclusions on how to execute such a locally organized Sankirtana Yajna, have the greatest and only chance of sprouting the seed of Daivi Varnasrama Dharma, while the rest of the population of the planet wallows in Sahajism, Impersonalism, Voidism, and Sub-Human religious fanaticism.

Hare Krsna

Dearest Sarva Swarupa Vigraha Gattah,

 

Well Perhaps you could humbly and mercifully explain to all the eternally conditioned wayward Jivas you are so kindly glancing at, exactly your current experience in Goloka Vrndavana.

 

And since this is your current and eternal state, I couldn't imagine you would be at all displeased by giving us a running commentary of your nectarean experiences in personal service with the object of our neophyte mechanical pseudo-love, Sri Krsna.

 

So far, inconceivably, you have not explained any of what you are experiencing in this reagard, and appear to just be a fallen soul like us, quoting and even sometimes mis-paraphrasing an Acharya, but like I said this is apparently due to the inconceivability of your status as a niyta-siddha mahabhagavata currently serving in Goloka, so I beg you please relieve yourself of the dry taste you must have and share the nectar.

 

If this is too confidential, I beg your pardon for such arrogant insolence.

Please?

Dearest Sarva Swarupa Vigraha Gattah,

Well Perhaps you could humbly and mercifully explain to all the eternally conditioned wayward Jivas you are so kindly glancing at, exactly your current experience in Goloka Vrndavana.

And since this is your current and eternal state, I couldn't imagine you would be at all displeased by giving us a running commentary of your nectarean experiences in personal service with the object of our neophyte mechanical pseudo-love, Sri Krsna.

So far, inconceivably, you have not explained any of what you are experiencing in this reagard, and appear to just be a fallen soul like us, quoting and even sometimes mis-paraphrasing an Acharya, but like I said this is apparently due to the inconceivability of your status as a niyta-siddha mahabhagavata currently serving in Goloka, so I beg you please relieve yourself of the dry taste you must have and share the nectar.

If this is too confidential, I beg your pardon for such arrogant insolence.

Thanks sevabhakta, therefore I wrote in post above, yes, everything went according Krishna's plan and the hardship we had to undergo caused by those "big leaders" is till today Krishna's mercy.

That Suchandra is a lofty aspiration. I have the aspiration to experience my suffering at the hands of demons more ambitious than I, but my envy sometimes gets in the way and I am no better in Real time than they are.

For me accepting that perspective and gaining the purification that follows is a hard road back door to eternal surrender.

I am just eternally lucky and grateful I am being let in the back door.

Thank You.

Hari Bol!

It think that whoever Sri Uddhava and Sri Arjuna are in their eternal swarupa in Goloka Vrndavana, when they are "here in the material world" accompanying Krsna for his Lila, we may as well follow Srila Prabhupada's vision and call them Jiva-tattva.

If we think we know something different and are confidentially informed that calling them Jiva tattva is a late semester preaching technique for near graduation time, which also implies that great discrimination is warranted in terms of who and when to share such a thing.

My take only as usual, Caveat Emptor.

Love to see some sastra on it for truly I have not completed my curriculum fully, just love to ride my intuition, and please forgive me if I slip into speculation.

Hari Bol

Where is the evidence that we must eventually be liberated - nitya siddha?

The 'must' means that there is no need for a process, no need for a sadhanna, yoga for what will happen anyways on its own.

Paradoxically they both happen simultaneously, yet to the false ego's conditioned awareness, we may see that our free will choice allows us to escape Krsna's loving shelter, although we must admit theoretically that we are constitutionally devoted to serve him personally in a pleasurable way, so how long do you think a spark of God can remain not engaged in its original nature.

I would bet on Krsna loving you back into the fold. Eventually.

Hare Krsna

The jiva cannot ever fully embody the internal potency.

That is Radharani who does that.

 

The jivashakti can only embody a small fragment of the internal potency and represent one aspect of the internal potency Sri Radha.

Thanks for adjusting my semantics, but considering that transformation from one potency to the other would mean there are no traces of any potency BUT the internal, I think you can understand the point of my query.

I guess with respect to the Queen of Vrndavana, I should rephrase that and say an eternal associate who is fully embodied by the internal potency.

Actually the philisophical issue is WHAT is the core essence of the individual.

Some say it is Marginal potency because the essence of individuality is a free willing living entity.

Some say after transformation of the marginal potency to Cit or Internal potency, that the living entity still has free will and is still an individual, and in which case, using our linguistic abilities which are slightly limited in describing the eternal reality, the individual would be NOTHING BUT internal potency. So technically it is acintya bhedhabeda that a living entity in that case fully embodies internal potency, yet does not with respect to the source of the Internal potency, Sri Sri Radha Krsna.

Jaya Sri Radhe