sevabhakta

I am not anti-rivik.

I personally believe that Srila Prabhupada was agreeable that the GBC could perform ritvik initiations even after his departure.

 

I also believe that Srila Prabhupada was also agreeable that his senior sannyasi disciples could also perform as diksha gurus if and when the situation was ripe.

 

I think many ISKCON men jumped the gun, dumped the ritvik system and made a mess out of ISKCON in the process.

 

I think that Srila Prabhupada would have agreed to both situations according to time, circumstance and qualifications.

 

Unfortunately, many men got in too deep before they were qualified and that makes all the more strong the case for the ritvik system.

I was not there at the time, but my survey of sane and staunch disciples of Srila Prabhupada produced the conclusion that he put a moratorium on Iskcon members taking formal sanyassa after expressing repeated public disappointment in the mentality of his sanyassis who used the ashram as leverage to gain prestige and followers and the fact that "just about" each and every one fell. They have produced quotes to that effect as well, so I would respectfully disagree that SP wanted his senior sannyasi disciples to also perform as diksha gurus , especially since he stated in his books that only a Mahabhagavat should become Guru.

Madhya 24.330

 

"When one has attained the topmost position of mahä-bhägavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru."

 

I still don't see why it is not acceptable that Ritvik initiation cannot be considered just as good as traditional Diksa.

I don't understand why people don't accept that if a person in Iskcon were actually to become qualified as Maha-Bhagavata that their giving Ritvik initiation on behalf of Iskcon's Acharya is just as good as them being Diksa guru themself, but following the order of their acharya, they officially give the disciple to Srila Prabhupada. In the same way that eternal associates from Goloka descend and think they are actually most fallen and claim to be so due to Yoga Maya's arrangement for all those who need the example.

After personally assessing the situation, I will go to my grave with this conclusion that this is the way Yoga Maya and Srila Prabhupada cooperately "sealed the door where evil dwells", and this will be the litmus test for who is a sincere and chaste member of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon for the duration of the Golden age within Kali Yuga in this particular universe.

His Iskcon institution was set up so expertly by Sri Nityananda Prabhu that anyone following the rules and regs with faith would automatically progress to spontaneous loving service (raganuga bhakti), and from there the sky is the limit in one's devotional career. What more does one need??

I also fully accept the possibility that Maha Bhagavatas will appear and initiate and begin their own institutions on this planet.

Hare Krsna

Here is a very nice purport which should teach a lesson to those who believe that "Ritvikism is Vulgar" or "you need a physically present Spiritual Master".

It is about what a Master of Spirituality may do through his REPRESENTATIVE.

Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 24.330:

• 
  "Similarly, a disciple's qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana."
  
  
  
  Take Heed of the carefully chosen grammar you Anti Ritviks.
  
  
  "OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE"
  
  
  These words immortalized in the Bhaktivedanta Purport to a verse in the Caitanya Caritamrta.
  
  
  The Acharya or Spiritual Master can fulfill the scriptural injunction to "live with and observe" a prospective disciple for a year by using a REPRESENTATIVE.
  
  
  Of course this representative was often a temple president or other senior disciple.
  
  
  But if he would deputize and use a representative for something as intimate and important as guaging a porential disciples sincerety and eagerness to be a chaste brahminical disciple, how absurd for the anti-ritvik camp to assume that it is "vulgar" or api-siddhanta for an Acharya, who never even met some of his disciples, to choose some to represent him as Ritvik priests.
  
  
  These Ritvik priests were in large part simply accepting the recommendation of temple presidents or senior disciples who already engaged in the sacred intimate work of living with and monitoring aspirants for a year.
  
  
  What a joke.
  
  
  I don't see these anti-ritvik zealots decrying the position of temple president, which would be more realistic.
  
  
  These hypocrits don't have a leg to stand on.
  
  
  

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport.

 

kṛṣṇera svarūpa, āra śakti-traya-jñāna

yāńra haya, tāńra nāhi kṛṣṇete ajñāna

 

 

 

I think this purport explains the point I am trying to make.

The marginal potency are called as such due to the conditions.

There are no marginal conditions in Goloka in-as-much as there is no exposure to the material energy.

 

So, I stand by my position that there is no marginal position for the jivas in Goloka.

 

The jivas in Goloka are within the internal energy, not the marginal position.

 

If associates of Krishna come with him to the material world then they enter that marginal situation with exposure to the material energy of Lord Krishna.

 

In Goloka that situation does not exist.

Gotcha Prabhu, but my query was whether or not a liberated eternal associate, who fully embodies the internal potency when in Goloka with no traces of other potencies, is transformed "by Krsna's will" into marginal potency when "amidst" the realm of the external energy for his sport.

Like I said, a small thing, hardly worth mentioning, but I have not seen any quote other than the one from Canto 1 where SP says Uddhava et al. are Jiva tattva, and I am a curious neophyte cat.

Of course at his will means he can do that, but what purpose would it serve?

I suppose this must link to the fact that a Mahabhagavat can be under Yoga-Maya's illusion that they are fallen in nescience and are lower than a worm in stool. They seem to assume a marginal position for the sake of Lila.

I don't care what you are trying to say with these quotes, but being in illusion is a falldown for the living entity and Srila Prabhupada refers to fallen conditioned souls many times in his books.

 

This so-called class in Japan is probably a fraud hoax quote.

If you can verify that quote in the Vedabase then please do.

Otherwise, I reject the quote as a fabricated fraud.

 

I wouldn't put it past the sleepervadis to manufacture false quotes of Srila Prabhupada to support their fairytale myth.

 

The concept of fallen souls is a constant and consistent theme in the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

This theory that there really is no such thing as a falldown for the jiva contradicts many, many statements in the books of Srila Prabhpada.

 

I don't buy it on the basis of some unverifiable quote that I have never seen in any authoritative resource of Prabhupada teachings.

Many mahabhagavats think they are deluded by Maya. They claim they have "fallen" into the ocean of material nescience and their spiritual master was sent to save them.

But we know that is Yoga Maya acting on them. And this is just how examples are set for up and coming neophytes and madhyamas.

That quote from a class in Japan may be legit, but it has no real bearing on the topic.

Half of the quotes the Cheif throws out there can be used to defeat his concoctions anyway.

What a great philosophy. I love Krsna consciousness.

Hmmm, in that purport he specifically uses them as an example to explain the difference between Visnu tattva and Jiva tattva, and calls them the tatastha sakti or the marginal energy of the Lord.

Perhaps the Lord transforms them from internal potency to marginal potency just for the sake of his material lila.

But as we have already determined, he does not need to do that because even the expansions of his hladini cit sakti have free will.

As a matter of fact, the fact that they love him is what makes expansions of his internal potency just that.

I need more information from sastra on this one.

I get your point that no marginal conditions exist in Goloka. And that such conditions exist here. But does that necessarily mean that he transforms the essential nature of each of his parishads to marginal when they are here with him?

It seems a small point as either way, they are always protected by his hladini sakti due to their love for him.

To keep a world wide movement like ISKCON running requires manpower. Like in any other global org during the start-up period people could be kept inspired at it more easy but in the next phase staying power or to go through dry spell was the challenge. Staying power, going through dry spell you find everywhere a difficult job. Srila Prabhupada was compromising?

When having read Prabhupada's books we rather say, Prabhupada always knew exactly what he was doing.

Actually, Srila Prabhupada admitted to being perplexed about how to preach and continue his mission in the west amidst so many setbacks and insane men that Krsna sent him.

He had faith that KRSNA knew what he was doing, so he just tried his best amidst a perplexing situation.

Of course Srila Prabhupada always knew what he was doing, but not in the way you imply. Being acharya, he is considered to have taken dictation from Krsna in all decisions. He was dependent on Krsna's perfect understanding of the situation.

This is a lesson for all of us who think we independently know something about how to spread Krsna consciousness.

We always need to consider that Krsna sent the men, knew who they were, and dictated to Srila Prabhupada how to adjust the sadhana according to circumstances.

It has been this perspective that has always allowed me to accept that whatever rules and regs Srila Prabhupada created in response to the men who came to him from 1966-1977 are good enough for me. The conditioning and behaviors of those men represented the best, and worst, in all of us conditioned westerners. They were the first to step up to the plate, and I am ultimately no better than the worst of them, so the rules that applied to them apply now to me.

Makes it simple.

Great discussion!

Hari Bol

One of the GBC's roles was to travel from temple to temple and "see that everything was going nicely."

As long as the temple standards were being maintained by the temple president, they were to only open their mouth to chant the holy names.

If the president needed advice, he was to ask.

If they saw standards were lax, they were to speak up.

So in actuality, each time a GBC attends one of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon temples where some unauthorized person is claiming acharyaship as diksa guru, they should restore the standard.

They have "ultimate MANAGERIAL authority."

The temple presidents were deputed to observe prospective candidates for initiation on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. If they were qualified they were to send the recommendation to the deputed Ritvik representative of THE ACHARYA FOR ISKCON, SRILA PRABHUPADA.

Whoever doesn't like that system should get qualified and create their own.

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It really *is* strange. Either all the names are pseudonyms for one person, or they are all suffering from the same ailment.

 

I've been begging all along for them to properly cite and quote their sources. I used to try to read everything they posted, but now I find much of it is redundant, so I've given up.

 

Now, it's just like the droning of the bees to me (no doubt the *bees* are also trying to tell me something, but I cannot hear it).

It is certainly one or maybe two. Sarva Gattah may be an individual, but Vigraha and Swarupa are one and the same.

I believe I baited the Cheif of the Sleepyhead Vadi's into check mate just moments ago on the "marginal jivas do not always become...." thread.

Sorry to see it play out like that, but the offenses will be too much for that poor soul to bear, and those of weak sastric knowledge may be defenseless against his fertile mind's sophisticated wordsmithing, so I pointed out a plain and simple fact just now, and there is really no escape for he wrote what he wrote.

Of course with a single post, the Cheif can probably cut and paste so much irrelevant out of context rubbish that he will bury my expose two pages deep.

Such is the nature of a forum where there is no Vedic Master declaring victory amidst debaters.

Hmmm, on that note, I wonder what I am even doing here. I guess it is just practice for the big show, when I actually learn Sastra well enough to preach from memory in a couple lifetimes.

Them will be good days!

Hari Bol

All I have to do is reproduce this one quote above from "Vigraha" aka "Swarupa" aka "Cheif Sleeping Vadi", to show that all his voluminous posts are nothing more than the vain gurgitations of someone who is pleased with the sound of his own speculations.

"When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila."

As you can see, he is so busy bloviating and pontificating that he forgets the example used time and time again by the Siddhantic defense squad (SCS), of Jaya and Vijaya.

According to the above quote, Jaya and Vijaya were not fully awake. They somehow fell into some "insignificant nitya baddha (eternally conditioned) "aspect" of their identity.

So this MUST in principle be equivalent with the example of Sri Uddhava, another personal associate, or lets say, Srimati Tulsi or Sudama Prabhu, both who "offended" Srimati Radharani and were "cursed" to become Sankachuda (great demon) and wife within the material realm.

So Srimati Tulsi devi suddenly became an ignorant nitya baddha.

How offensive can you get?

I am not angry, just afraid for you, but then I am a very sentimental person, and wish no one would have to suffer such delusions.

Problem is Cheif Snoozy Body is perpetrating the perpetuation of this bogus philosophy in public, and there are many would be cheated Jivas listening in so I am doing what any sensible person would do and defend against this offensive api-siddhanta.

Please understand.

Hare Krsna

Overall, you make some nice points. However, Sri Krishna is very clear that he did *not* "create" us, nor does the soul itself ever take birth, though it may enter a body.

 

We have always existed as individual units of consciousness. Within the Brahmajyoti, all traces of individuality disappear, but we still remain discrete units of consciousness (inconceivably).

 

It's better to use terms, like "emerge" (as you do elsewhere in your posting) when referring to our entrance into the material energy.

I like your idea of using "emerge".

Of course in Jaiva Dharma we are told that no words we use to describe this inconceivable occurance will suffice because the words we use are from our material reference points.

We were only supposed to hear a good enough analogy to start us on our way to sadhana. The word inconceivable is the key here.

Still, if I wish to be effective in waking anyone up, emerge is much better.

Thanks!

However, since I am trying to make the point of Krsna having something ever fresh and new, Create is the best word. He creates the fulfillment of his desires too. Of course inconceivably, but creation is the best analogy to me.

Hare Krsna

Where does it end. Now Perfect loving servants who are eternal associates of the Lord who come to the material world are using their free will to "activate and inhabit" a "nitya baddha lower self".

I suppose Sri Uddhava who is refered to as a liberated eternal associate, but still a marginal jiva, is inhabiting a nitya baddha lower self body when he appears within the material realm to play with Krsna.

Insane.

The mahat tattva never touchs Uddhava or Jaya or Vijaya when they are swimming amidst it completely protected by the Hladini Shakti of the Cit Shakti, immersed in blissful hatred or separation or reunion.

Just imagine a bubble of the Hladini Shakti enveloping such perfected Siddhas when they are here.

No "etherial biological vessels" for them.

How offensive to suggest. Bas.

Until you are realizing your presense in Goloka, or sensing it wherever you go within the Material realm, Srila Prabhupada's statement that you are originally nitya-siddha means NOTHING, except perhaps a glimmer of hope for the rank neophyte to keep up the regs.

I dare you to say otherwise.

Hare Krsna

All living entities are constitutionally 'persons' yet can 'dream' or 'think' they are impersonal. We are all nitya-siddha right now with Krishna but we are presently dreaming and thinking otherwise that makes our present awareness nitya-baddha or 'dreaming' consciousness.

 

The word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from those who think our original possition is nitya-baddha and we must develope our nitya-siddha bodily identity when we enter Goloka. Such understanding by even big, big caste Brahmana's, Guru's and pandits are incorrect because our nitya-siddha body is always in Goloka or Vaikuntha even while we chase our mistaken dreams in the material world as nitya-baddha (the sub-conscious dreaming condition of the marginal living entity).

 

The Impersonalists claim that all living entities emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. They claim that within the brahmajyoti , their equilibrium is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. They further claim that from the nondifferentiation condition of the marginal living entity, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they (jiva-tatastha) choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

 

This is where the word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from.

 

This impersonal understanding that the living entity originates from the impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti is totally rejected by Srila Prabhupada.

 

The marginal living entity did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, such teachings miss the point that all marginal living entities are originally and perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha and are eternally situated as their bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha as previously explained in so many quotations from Srila Prabhupada.

 

Therefore it is the impersonal idea that we all originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness that promotes the word ‘jiva tatastha’ or the living entity as impersonal

 

The fact is our eternal constitutional position is nitya-siddha-svarupa-vigraha. In other words ALL marginal living entities have a perpetual spiritual 'svarupa' body that is never ending without beginning or end. Therefore the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity facilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

 

The impersonal understanding of our origins presented by many other Hindu sects of religion and philosophy are as follows and is completely wrong and misleading.- ‘They foolishly believe the Brahmajyoti is the nondifferentiated marginal plane that is the original source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. They foolishly consider the rays of the Lord's transcendental body as without bodily form and call it the Brahmajyoti when it is really the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. They use the terminology, 'a pencil of a ray of the Brahmajyoti is the jiva' and that the jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the Brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms'.

 

This idea of ‘sparks’ ‘atoms’ ‘rays’ as our original constitutional position is actually Impersonalism

 

The fact is ALL marginal living entities referred to as 'sparks' or 'atomic particles' are perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees of Krishna that are perpetually sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA. This is the original Krishna Conscious position of all marginal living entities

 

A further fact is our eternal constitutional position is nitya-siddha-svarupa-vigraha. In other words ALL marginal living entities have a spiritual 'svarupa' body that is never ending without beginning or end. Therefore the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity fascilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu. And yes ones nitya-siddha body maybe that of a cow or peacock however, such rasa realationships can change in Vaikuntha and Goloka. Such high levels of Krishna's pastimes can only be understood through selfless devotional service and not through book knowledge and jnana. In our material contaminated state we will only see contradictions.

Well sleepyhead, I dare you to read the following purport from the Acharya and tell us how Jiva's who are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord are impersonal.

Here Srila Prabhupada calls constant liberated companions of the Lord "infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord". Who require protection at all times.

SB 1.14.32-33

The constant companions of Lord Krsna, such as Uddhava, are all liberated souls, and they descended along with Lord Krsna to this material world to fulfill the mission of the Lord. The Pandavas are also liberated souls who descended along with Lord Krsna to serve Him in His transcendental pastimes on this earth. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. The jiva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times. And to the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times. The liberated souls never, therefore, think themselves as free as the Lord or as powerful as the Lord, but they always seek the protection of the Lord in all circumstances, both in the material world and in the spiritual world. This dependence of the liberated soul is constitutional, for the liberated souls are like sparks of a fire that are able to exhibit the glow of fire along with the fire and not independently. Independently the glow of the sparks is extinguished, although the quality of fire or the glowing is there. Thus those who give up the protection of the Lord and become so-called lords themselves, out of spiritual ignorance, come back again to this material world, even after prolonged tapasya of the severest type. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature.

Nitya siddha means eternally perfected in liberation.

If you are still making mistakes here on earth, that should be your only concern. Not what is "happening eternally in Goloka" which is presently beyond your ability to experience and comprehend.

Perfect your sadhana, and then you will realize the actual experience of being siddha.

According to this purport, some Jiva's do not transform into Cit potency.

Here Srila Prabhupada calls constant liberated companions of the Lord "infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord". Who require protection at all times. (For all those who call particles "impersonal" read it and weep)

Perhaps, there can be a point where one of such associates gets transformed into Cit potency. Krsna can do anything.

But it seems clear from this purport that this is not always the case.

SB 1.14.32-33

The constant companions of Lord Krsna, such as Uddhava, are all liberated souls, and they descended along with Lord Krsna to this material world to fulfill the mission of the Lord. The Pandavas are also liberated souls who descended along with Lord Krsna to serve Him in His transcendental pastimes on this earth. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. The jiva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times. And to the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times. The liberated souls never, therefore, think themselves as free as the Lord or as powerful as the Lord, but they always seek the protection of the Lord in all circumstances, both in the material world and in the spiritual world. This dependence of the liberated soul is constitutional, for the liberated souls are like sparks of a fire that are able to exhibit the glow of fire along with the fire and not independently. Independently the glow of the sparks is extinguished, although the quality of fire or the glowing is there. Thus those who give up the protection of the Lord and become so-called lords themselves, out of spiritual ignorance, come back again to this material world, even after prolonged tapasya of the severest type. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature.

According to this purport, some Jiva's do not transform into Cit potency.

Here Srila Prabhupada calls constant liberated companions of the Lord "infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord". Who require protection at all times.

Perhaps, there can be a point where one of such associates gets transformed into Cit potency. Krsna can do anything.

But it seems clear from this purport that this is not always the case.

SB 1.14.32-33

The constant companions of Lord Krsna, such as Uddhava, are all liberated souls, and they descended along with Lord Krsna to this material world to fulfill the mission of the Lord. The Pandavas are also liberated souls who descended along with Lord Krsna to serve Him in His transcendental pastimes on this earth. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. The jiva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times. And to the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times. The liberated souls never, therefore, think themselves as free as the Lord or as powerful as the Lord, but they always seek the protection of the Lord in all circumstances, both in the material world and in the spiritual world. This dependence of the liberated soul is constitutional, for the liberated souls are like sparks of a fire that are able to exhibit the glow of fire along with the fire and not independently. Independently the glow of the sparks is extinguished, although the quality of fire or the glowing is there. Thus those who give up the protection of the Lord and become so-called lords themselves, out of spiritual ignorance, come back again to this material world, even after prolonged tapasya of the severest type. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature.

If Sri Krsna is ever expanding his Lila, there would always be something new.

His bodily effulgence is transcendental. Each potential desire for ever fresh experiences with another living entity emerges and expands from his own being, and this is what his Brahmajyoti or Bodily effulgence is all about.

So each new Living entity who he creates for a NEW relationship and experience is a pleasurable even for him.

So just by being manifest from his effulgence, we begin to please him, and thus our original constitutional position is servant of Krsna, because pleasing is serving.

Of course the freshness comes from each individual entity emerging with free will, so we may, like I did, choose to enjoy Maha Maya. This serves Krsna's pleasure in an indirect way for him, for he experiences separation from us.

We are never not serving his pleasure.

The difference is what do WE REALIZE.

By our birth on the borderline, and choosing Maha Maya, we are given the chance to realize a better way to enjoy. Eternal enjoyment, not just temporary enjoyment. And when we realize this opportunity, Krsna's pleasure is INCREASED.

So becoming ACTIVE in our service to him is the first step for us enjoying eternal pleasure according to our constitutional position. But from HIS point of view, we have been pleasing him, one way or another, since before WE can remember.

SB 3.26.18 Purport

Since the living entity is constitutionally part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Lord is very affectionate to the living entities. Unfortunately, when the living entity is bewildered or illusioned by the external energy, he becomes forgetful of his eternal relationship with the Lord, but as soon as he becomes aware of his constitutional position, he is liberated. The minute independence of the conditioned soul is exhibited by his marginal position. If he likes, he can forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead and come into the material existence with a false ego to lord it over material nature, but if he likes he can turn his face to the service of the Lord. The individual living entity is given that independence. His conditional life is ended and his life becomes successful as soon as he turns his face to the Lord, but by misusing his independence he enters into material existence. Yet the Lord is so kind that, as Supersoul, He always remains with the conditioned soul. The concern of the Lord is neither to enjoy nor to suffer from the material body. He remains with the jéva simply as sanction-giver and witness so that the living entity can receive the results of his activities, good or bad.

The impersonal understanding of our origins presented by many other Hindu sects of religion and philosophy are as follows and is completely wrong and misleading.- ‘They foolishly believe the Brahmajyoti is the nondifferentiated marginal plane that is the original source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. They foolishly consider the rays of the Lord's transcendental body as without bodily form and call it the Brahmajyoti when it is really the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. They use the terminology, 'a pencil of a ray of the Brahmajyoti is the jiva' and that the jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the Brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms'. What dribble!!

This idea of ‘sparks’ ‘atoms’ ‘rays’ as our original constitutional position is actually Impersonalism

The fact is ALL marginal living entities referred to as 'sparks' or 'atomic particles' are perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that are perpetually sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA. This is the original Krishna Conscious position of all marginal living entities

 

The claim that a spiritual spark that emanates from the body of the Lord himself is not sat chit ananda vigraha, but is actually impersonal.

According to Lord Krsna's vision, every part of him serves his pleasure. So there is no living entity who is not originally and constitutionally serving his pleasure. The difference is whether or not the entity realizes it or not.

It is simply not possible for a living entity that is consciously aware of how much Krsna loves him and loves the type of service he is providing to fall into love with Maha Maya.

A conditioned Jiva like me was originally serving Krsna's pleasure without my personal volitional awareness. I didn't understand his love for me, so I was attracted to Maha Maya's allure instead.

They probably also believe that a Surabhi cow in Goloka is impersonal because it is not a person.

Of course you enjoyed it. Now you can continue to enjoy, plus imagine you are already eternally perfected and liberated in devotional service.

What a deal. No more hassle with your bad self and your conditioned tendencies. It is just a dream, therefore even if you break all the rules it never happens.

That is another punishment life in Vrndavana for you Vigraha, you have led another astray. Keep it up and you will make the record books.

One of the GBC's roles was to travel from temple to temple and "see that everything was going nicely."

As long as the temple standards were being maintained by the temple president, they were to only open their mouth to chant the holy names.

If the president needed advice, he was to ask.

If they saw standards were lax, they were to speak up.

So in actuality, each time a GBC attends one of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon temples where some unauthorized person is claiming acharyaship as diksa guru, they should restore the standard.

They have "ultimate MANAGERIAL authority."

The temple presidents were deputed to observe prospective candidates for initiation on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. If they were qualified they were to send the recommendation to the deputed Ritvik representative of THE ACHARYA FOR ISKCON, SRILA PRABHUPADA.

Whoever doesn't like that system should get qualified and create their own.

The man is sober, has a keen intellect, is an articulate orator, and knows history.

That said, he speaks with a forked tongue. He is pandering to the idealist in John Doe U.S.A., in order to manipulate public sentiment against taking any action to stay his plans for world domination.

And he is real good.

Personally I don't give a hoot which one of these neophyte fanatic leaders, American/Iranian/Russian etc. gets the upper hand, they all fall short of my idea of Vaisnava leaders ready to implement Varnasrama Dharma for the good of the planet.

Let them nuke each other into oblivion and then we can sort things out using revealed knowledge instead of materially motivated speculation in the guise of pious religiousity.

Good night and sweet dreams of Krsna.

The simple fact is that Srila Prabhupada deputed certain disciples to act on his behalf regarding the monitoring of aspirants and seeing that they meet the stipulations of a sincere and eager aspiring disciple.

He delegated many portions of what most people mistakenly believe ONLY the individual person called the Spiritual Master can execute in this relation.

This is a bad case of selective memory, and an offense to the concept that an Acharya has broad latitude as to how he "gets to know" aspirants and dispenses their individual sadhana.

His orders were crystal clear, he worked with who stepped up to the plate, if they fumbled the ball, it is not that his instructions were not potent, it was that they were not followed.

So the spiritual master never left the building. His deputies were and are physically present. As for their behavior, well that is up to free will. And let us not forget the detailed instructions laced throughout his books.

You are right KB. Even as I was writing that I sensed I was exaggerating, and thought, I should qualify the statement. Why I didn't, laziness mixed with time limits. I probably should have left my passion at the door and not even posted til I had the time.

So glad you were there to pick up after my mess.

I highly doubt Srila Prabhupada ever used the words siddha-swarupa or perfected swarupa to describe the "current" condition of a "dreaming" Jiva, but I could be wrong and he would have used it just so as to be viable to the moment he was preaching to someone.

Hare Krsna

That passage from Jaiva Dharma is chock full of information.

The most relevant snippets to this thread are...

1. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains.

2.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings.

So we know that siddha means perfect.

We know Srila Prabhupada said that once sadhana siddha is reached that it is not different than nitya-siddha.

We know that a perfect loving servant of Krsna in Goloka never falls in the sense of forgetting Krsna even for one moment.

The fairytale vadis have produced innumerable quotes from Srila Prabhupada stating that each conditioned Jiva actually has an eternal nitya siddha form in Goloka.

Put it all together and it should be obvious that once a conditioned Jiva perfects his sadhana by taking shelter of the Hladini Sakti of the Cit Sakti, that Krsna transforms or transmutes the marginal potency into the Cit potency, because there is no margin within the Hladini Sakti's activities in Goloka Vrndavana. Everything is full there and fully engaged. No margin for error.

So can we all get together and chant, distribute prasadam and books, and cooperate on the subsistence level to maintain these things (aka Daivi Varnashrama Dharma) and leave the fairy tale behind us?

Hari Bol Prabhu

What I am trying to say with this topic is that the fall-from-goloka dreamer vadis think they someday they are just going to wake up in Goloka by practicing vaidhi-sadhana without ever practicing or attaining to raganuga sadhana

LOL, it seems that some of them even go so far as to claim that through interpreting Srila Prabhupada's letters to other devotees, they "realized" they are already awake in Goloka. They are now looking down from Goloka upon me and you and others who don't "get it" saying to us...

Wake up and join me in my nitya siddha body serving Krsna's lotus feet in Goloka. Don't mind the fact that I have this western karmi body and am appearing to you on earth saying this. You are still dreaming those distinctions, while I, although to your senses are appearing to be speaking to you on earth on this topic, am ACTUALLY IN GOLOKA RIGHT NOW IN MY NITYA SIDDHA SWARUPA POPPING LADUS IN KRSNA'S MOUTH.

The way I see it, all any leader in Iskcon would need to do is to prescribe the Vaidhi Bhakti regulative functions of Temple and Farm community life as per Srila Prahbupada's exact instructions, limiting all disciples to the reading of the 4 books Srila Prabhupada said were essential, and Raganuga will automatically emerge for each and every sadhaka.

Iskcon has changed the sadhana and the books. Ergo; NO RAGANUGA.

Thanks for the topic and discussion Guruvani. Dandavat Pranams.

ys

Sevabhakta

According to the 16th chapter of Nectar of Devotion, we get the full breakdown.

The gradual development of the AMBITION to become like an Vrajabasi devotee is an activity called Raganuga.

But we cannot even develop the initial stage of that eagerness or ambition without anartha-nivritti.

And how do we get to anartha-nivritti? Following the regulative principles given by the Acharya and confirmed by scripture.

So basically, anyone who has not yet followed regulative principles to the point of being free from all material contaminations (anarthas) in their heart cannot possibly even have a REAL concept of the loving attachment of a denizen of Vraja for Krsna.

All claims to such are just their own delusion.

The first glimmer of eager ambition comes after anartha-nivritti, when a sadhaka recieves the first true glimpse of the love and service mood a Vrajabasi has towards Sri Krsna.

Then that ambition grows. And gradual development of that ambition is the Activity considered to be Raganuga sadhana proper.

That is the way I read the purport from ch 16 which I will post below.

Thus according to the example given in Ch 2 of NOD by Srila Prabhupada, the vaidhi sadhaka is performing regs and the arotik mechanically with faith in the spiritual master, and then one day the anartha's are relieved and they get the glimpse that corresponds with their own unique future desirous service in Vrndaban. From then on, the regs and arotik are performed with love and thus it is considered SPONTANEOUS. So this would be the first stage of the activity of gradual development of their ambition to follow the service mood of a Vrajabasi.

Next stop, as per Krsna book ch.28 , a birth in Vrndavana on some Earth planet where Krsna is appearing.

Ch 16 NOD

 

"Persons desiring to follow in the footsteps of such eternal devotees of the Lord as the Vṛṣṇis and Vṛndāvana denizens are called rāgānugā devotees, which means that they are trying to attain to the perfection of those devotees. These rāgānugā devotees do not follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or Yaśodā, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously. There is a gradual development of the ambition to become like a particular devotee, and this activity is called rāgānugā.

We must always remember, however, that such eagerness to follow in the footsteps of the denizens of Vraja (Vṛndāvana) is not possible unless one is freed from material contamination. In following the regulative principles of devotional service, there is a stage called anartha-nivṛtti, which means the disappearance of all material contamination. Sometimes someone is found imitating such devotional love, but factually he is not freed from anarthas, or unwanted habits. It has been seen that a so-called devotee proclaims himself a follower of Nanda, Yaśodā or the gopīs, while at the same time his abominable attraction for mundane sex life is visible. Such a manifestation of divine love is mere imitation and has no value. When one is actually spontaneously attracted to the loving principles of the gopīs, there will be found no trace of any mundane contamination in his character.

Therefore, in the beginning, everyone should strictly follow the regulative principles of devotional service, according to the injunctions of the scriptures and the spiritual master. Only after the stage of liberation from material contamination can one actually aspire to follow in the footsteps of the devotees in Vṛndāvana."

 

Ch 2. NOD

 

From Nectar of Devotion, ch 2. 1970 version

 

"Now this sädhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument.

 

Another part of sädhana-bhakti is called rägänugä. Rägänugä refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Krsna, and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ärotika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ärotika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sädhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous."

 

Krishna Book Ch. 28 p.186

 

"The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikunthalokas. The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continuously going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across the earthly planet, so krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their:uzi: first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the vrndavana-lila of Krsna within this planet. Krsna therefore revealed the actual feature of the Vaikuntha planets so that the inhabitants of Vrndavana could know their destination."

 

Everyone is under the impression that he is of this material world, and with this concept of life, everyone is working in ignorance in different forms of life. The activities of the particular type of body are called karma, or fruitive action. All conditioned souls under the impression of the bodily concept are working according to their particular types of body. These activities are creating their future conditional life. Because they have very little information of the spiritual world, they do not generally take to spiritual activities, which are called bhakti-yoga. Those who successfully practice bhakti-yoga, after giving up this present body, go directly to the spiritual world and become situated in one of the Vaikuntha planets. The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikunthalokas. The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continuously going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across the earthly planet, so krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their:uzi: first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the vrndavana-lila of Krsna within this planet. Krsna therefore revealed the actual feature of the Vaikuntha planets so that the inhabitants of Vrndavana could know their destination.

Well, Laulyam Prabhu, the problem with quoting the sastra in this case is that the opposition believes that Srila Prabhupada's nursery rhyme letters to brand spanking new, immature neophytes trump sastra.

But, that problem aside I appreciate this glorious purport.

And as far as the following quote from our infamous resident Fable teller, "Sarva Gattah"...

"Above in quotes is the crazy words of confused 'nitya-baddha' soul forgetful of his genuin nitya-siddha body that is eternally in Goloka."

Tell me, exactly what are you yourself, in your nitya-siddha body, doing right now in Goloka.

I know, I know, if you told me I would faint it is so confidential and intimate.

Maybe we need a section of this Forum for Fables and Story tellers.