realist

Also there is no suggestion that the original (nitya-siddha) position is ever “fallen.” There is also no suggestion of an original free ‘svarupa’ condition that is different from the final perpetual liberated position because ones ‘svarupa’ is always in Goloka and never leaves, we cannot say therefore we are not with Krishna when our true identity is always with Krishna even if we are not aware of this fact. This is because as soon as we choose to try to become Lord, Maya immediately covers us due to activating our inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, forgetting our ‘Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha svarupa’ perpetual identity that is eternally there in Krishna Lila. In this way we enter the mahat-tattva as the inferior nitya-baddha lower self unaware of our original position in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada clearly states "Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya within the mahat-tattva cloud in the Spiritual Sky may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations within the mahat-tattva are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness and wakes up from their nitya-baddha condition and realizes their nitya-siddha body. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed" LETTER to Australian devotees 1972.

The idea that we were always conditioned is directly rejected. Srila Prabhupada says, “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport.” LETTER TO Autralian devotees 1972

Guravani and others I appreciate all your quotes which made me search this subject thoroughly, but this is how I understand the origins (actually there is no origin) of our eternal svarupa, rasa and temporary conditioned dreaming state in the material world. HARE KRSNA PRABHU'S

There are two conditions or states of consciousness, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state of consciousness is eternally in a bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self.

The covered state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is actually the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that forgets their perpetual or endless nitya-siddha bodily self serving Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the maha-tattva. In other words the free state (nitya-siddha) is perpetually with Krishna and the covered state (nitya-baddha) is with either with Maha-Vishnu in the impermanent mahat-tattva (material creation), or merged as a dormant state of individual consciousness.

This characteristic of individual consciousness formulates their nitya-baddha perceptiveness appear like a ‘spark of effulgence’ that IS, along with other dormant nitya-baddha consciousnesses, the collective Impersonal feature we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. This is what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti really is – simply the marginal living entities inferior nitya-baddha consciousness existing in a dormant inactive dreamless state of awareness.

This Impersonal inactive condition of consciousness is also a temporary state.

“There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada clearly says here we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position

After spending Janmastami at the Auckland Temple and speaking to devotees I respect, I have come to a conclusion of what appears to be the correct understanding on this subject. The difference between them and aspiring devotees like you and I is many dedicated senoir devotees have realizations on this subject and not just the book knowledge of cut and past you and I are presenting. Also its not an ISKCON idea but rather a shastric conclusion given by a bonafide Spiritual Master (Srila Prabhupada)

Anyway regardless of the many difficulties ISKCON has faced over the years, there is one thing they have correctly understood as explained in the following quotes

Realization is the key to all the following and not just the book knowledge and quotes.

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the ‘seen’ disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

It says clearly in this verse that the jivas are in between the material and spiritual energy.

If we were in Goloka dreaming that we were in the material energy then we would not be in the marginal energy, we would be in the internal energy.

 

It is not possible for devotees in the internal energy to be overcome by maya.

Maya is infinitly beyond the internal realm of Goloka.

 

Maya cannot touch the devotees of Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

Maya can only attract the marginal jivas situated between the material and spiritual energies.

Interesting, but i just read we supposedly don't leave Vaikuntha due to maya, we leave because we choose to leave and only after we leave does maya get us under her spell.

Then how do you explain eternal time which possibly means ones spiritual body is always there, well not time as we know it. Your quotes don't cleary solve this mystery.

Murali_Mohan_das you have added more mystery into the equation, going by that quote from Babaji the Vaikthutha' s are unchanging, on-one enters Vaikuntha because we are already there. This only confirms Prabhupada' s view that we are always in Vaikuntha and only dream we are not there. Could that be possible?

I don't think it is as clear as you believe, please explain this quote from Prabhupadas introduction to the Bhagavad Gita

"Our unique, individual relationship with the Lord is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. Unfortunately, in the present status of our conditioned life, we have not only forgotten the Lord, we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. By engagine in the process of devotional service, called svarupa, we can revive that eternal relationship".

Once again I am only trying to understand the truth yet it appears to me Prabhupada leans more to our origin being from Vaikuntha.

I read where you are coming from yet there are so many quotes from Prabhupada that says we did fall from Goloka. Even your claim we never fall down is explained by him that we only dream we are fallen when in actual fact non of us ever fall down. What am I to believe? I just read that Prabhupada said we were originally with Krishna. How do you explain that?

I am just trying to correctly understand what the truth is I'm not interested in mental masturbation. What do you make of these quotes from Prabhupada, Im not challenging you I am just trying to understand.

If you type re-establish our relationship with Krishna, there are many quotes

'The human form of life is meant for reestablishing our relationship with God and acting according to that relationship. Even in ordinary dealings, one businessman who intends to do business with another must first establish some relationship with him, and then transactions can take place. Similarly, a husband and wife establish a relationship by marriage, and then they live together. In a similar way, human life is meant for reestablishing our relationship with God. The material world means forgetfulness of this relationship. There is no krishna consciousness in this material world, for as soon as there is Krsna consciousness, as soon as there is action on the basis of Krsna, it is no longer the material world but the spiritual world. Chapter 25: Unalloyed Devotion Teachings of Queen Kunti by Srila Prabhupada

69-12-13 Letter: Satsvarupa

'I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated December 7, 1969 along with the article of Acyutananda. Your decision not to publish this article is correct. To the neophyte devotees we should issue instruction that there are four stages of understanding the Absolute Truth. The first stage is re establishing our relationship with Krishna'.

2. Prabhupada's disciples are free to take on their own disciples as the sastra states and as Prabhupada willed but they must do that outside the Iskcon structure entirely and their disciples should live outside the Iskcon temple structure. A son when mature leaves home to start his own family. If someone is not confident enough to do that simple thing then he has no business taking on disciples and promising to take them back to Godhead. /quote]

 

Didn't Prabhupada want the ISKCON family to stay together? I'm also not happy with the way ISKCON is prsently managed either, but the heart of the movement is the guru/disciple relationship in Prabhupadas ISKCON. Your idea will only lead to every guru starting their own movement which will weaken Iskcon from within. I believe in Prabupadas iskcon, but not the present version where in many places around the world and especially in Australia, many leaders arrogently believe their dictatorial version is the only way to serve Krishna and His devotees when in truth Prabhupadas books are the only way. I don't believe other Gaudiya camps are the answer either. Prabhupada created ISKCON for the entire world therefor Prabhupada is ISKCON

Hare Krsna

 

The spiritual body revivalists use that same concept to inflate their mind with artificial self esteem. This is a trick by the false ego. It paralyzes the Jiva from recognizing the true state of fallenness and suffering they are in, and gives them a sense of already being finished with sadhana, when in fact they have fallen into sahajyaism.

 

There is much more gravity and vigor to ones awareness of their role of serving or offending in their immediate relationships when there is something they must attain by dint of their own effort built on purification of their TRUE CURRENT STATE OF FALLENESS AND MATERIAL SELFISH TENDENCIES, through taking poison (discipline) that turns to nectar later.

 

Srila Prabhupada mentions in Nectar of Devotion that a person who engages in regulative devotional service will, in time, discover that their regulative service BECOMES A SPONTANEOUS EVENT. This matches perfectly well with the awakening in the sadhakas mind of his desiring to emulate and serve a resident of Vraja dham. Thus the beginning of raganuga bhakti. As promised in NOD ch. 5.

 

No external pranali guru necessary. Just do your the regulative service offered by the Spiritual Master, and let the bliss begin.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

My question is are we re-awakening something we long ago abandoned or are we re-establishing something new as we become pure devotees? It leaves the question of our rasa with Krishna, does it already exist or does it develope with our devotional creeper?

Sankara's conception of consciousness and bliss are that they are qualities of 'Brahman' and not the 'Jiva'. Where as the truth is the other way round, Brahman is the effulgence of Krishna and that effulgence or Brahman IS Krishnas marginal potency or jivas manifesting as either their original perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka, or similtaniously (due to the reality of time and space that exists in the mahat-tattva yet does not exist in Goloka) as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that is housed within the mahat-tattva, or proceed after billions of lives embodied to a dormant state of consciousness outside the restraints of the mahat-tattva. In this way ones consciousness can simply becomes a collective part of what we know as the Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti.

 

Madhwa also states that the 'Jiva' has eternal individuality, possesses a form and a body, and that this is 'swaprakasha', self-illuminating.

“The 'svarupa' of 'Jivas' is that they are part of the Lord, manifest for His pleasure, and are totally dependent upon Him… They are eternal, blissful nature, full of knowledge and having an original spiritual form spiritually similar to the Lords” . (B.N.K. Sharma.1986. Philosophy of Sri Madhwacarya. page 110.)

 

The 'svarupa' of 'Jivas' is that they are part of the Lord, manifest for His pleasure, and are totally dependent upon Him. They are eternal, blissful nature, full of knowledge and having an original spiritual form spiritually similar to the Lords'. However despite the resemblance to God's ('bimba'), no two individuals ('pratibimbatvas') being unique and distinctive, but tiny, will bear the same resemblance to the Lord in every respect, such as spiritual attributes, consciousness and bliss. (B.N.K. Sharma.1986. Philosophy of Sri Madhwacarya. page 110.)

 

 

"Innumerable living entities move through varied stages of existence; some become eternally conditioned, some become eternally liberated. When the 'Jiva' rejects the Supreme Lord, he is eternally ensnared by matter; but if he again aspires for the shelter of the Lord, the curtain of 'maya' that separates the Jiva' from his own transcendental identity and qualities is forever removed; he is and immediately restored to his original pure self." (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Sri Sri Siksastaka - Sri Sanmodana Bhasyam, With Commentary By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada. sloka 1.)

I have read this over and over and my question is, you say we have an eternal svarupa due to the non-presents of mundane time in Vaikuntha, if that is so, how can our rasa with Krishna change? Is our eternal body eternally the same, apparently not if we can change our rasa?

No formal initiation is necessary.

.

I cannot agree with you here because it is important to find a genuin Guru and take initiation eventually. One can follow the teachings of Srila Prabhupada but they cannot become his direct disciple, THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. We must seek out a bonafide representative of him to enter into the Parampara line of succession. Such devotees do exist but are very rare. I do understand this fact at least. It depends on our sincerity. If we are genuinly honest and serious, then a bonafide guru will find us.

'TIME I AM DESTROYER OF THE WORLDS' Krishna tells Arjuna

Yes, time belongs to the material world (mahat-tattva)

India is a secular country, not a Hindu country. All religions should be respected equally in a secular country. Offering food to God is an ancient Hindu custom performed by individuals worshipping in temples. In this case, we are speaking of a secular government providing free meals to Islamic schools. It has nothing to do with ancient Hindu customs. The Muslims clearly don't want food offered to a Hindu deity, and that is understandable. Just because my religion says it is good for them doesn't give me the right to force it on them. How would you feel if in Muslim countries all Hindus were forced to eat halal beef because the Muslims thought it was good for you?

 

When the governement provides free meals to the citizens of India, they do it as a secular service to feed children. It isn't an ancient religious custom they are trying to fulfill. Actually there is no ancient religious custom that involves the government cooking and feeding prasadam to millions of children in schools throughout the country. The ancient custom has always been to offer food to God in temples.

 

 

This is an ignorant statement on several levels. First, most of the Muslims in India have always been Indian. When the Muslims invaded India, they converted native Hindus to their religion. So for most of todays Muslims, there is no place "where they came from". Their country of origin has always been India. The only difference is their forefathers were Hindus, and they are not.

 

Why your statement is ignorant is because you are identifying a country of origin with a particular religion. It is like saying that your "country of origin" is India just because you are a Vaishnava. But the reality is most of the Vaishnavas in the west are not from India and are not Indian. Their country of origin remains the country they were born in - it has nothing to do with the particular religion they choose to follow.

 

India has many religious traditions, and no one should be forced to follow the rituals of a religion he does not believe in. As a Vaishnava, you would not want to be forced to follow buddhist, jain, or zorastrian customs, would you? These are all ancient traditions of India. So just because your tradition of offering food to God is ancient does not justify forcing others to follow it as well.

Even the muslims who destroyed so many Krishna Temples?

Didn't Prabhupada say 'Let there be one God Krishna, one scripture Bhagavad Gita. And one religion, Sanatam Dharma or Krishna Consciousness.

Maybe Sabo’s prophetic words in 1977 was right ‘We made it! At least we got initiated by Srila Prabhupada.<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Sabo's prophetic words are selfish, how can Prabhupada's movement spread without his disciples taking their own disciples and becoming responsible to carry on Prabhupadas mission?! Lord Chaitanyas Movement will spread with this generation and if not, then another generation will emerge and take the credit and the baton of responsibility. Prabhupada's disciples where given the chance to bath in Krishnas glory and they blew it. In fact those early gurus where victims of their own demands to be glorified like Prabhupada. How can they expect others to follow when they can't follow Prabhupada themselves.

Lets hear real prophetic words from the great thiest and others out there who study the teachings of Lord Chaitanya and Prabhupada

Don't get me wrong I still have heaps of faith in the teachings of Srila Prabhupada but to sit back and think 'nature' is going to look after everything, is not accurate either. The movement is sturdy in the eastern block because it is new and they are experiencing the originality we went through in the 70s, 80s and 90s, but in the end it all depends on the cream of the iskcon crop that push the movement forward with their humility, selflessness and purity. Australian leaders are still preaching the kind of surrender where you have to become under their thumb to win their favor and do as they demand, to them thats surrender. Ramai's mismanagement and cover-ups of the 80s is known by everyone and he gets away with it. The quicker he and his henchmen are over-ruled by genuinely advanced devotees, the quicker the factual preaching in Australia will again begin to have some positive effect. Ramai adjudicates everyone by their material opulence and how they suck up to him and NOT by their Krishna Consciousness. He cleverly plays the game to continue his position and conceal his secret hoard that everyone suspects, but no-one says anything because most are too immature and uneducated in authentic Krishna Consciousness to stand up to him. To pass judgment on him and his hidden wealth or expose his cover-ups will only lead him to turn everyone against you.. How long can this guy masquerade as a leader, GBC and swami, surrounded by his yes men for? Unfortunately most people are too frightened to speak out in Australia, so they just blindly follow his so called leadership, as a result the movement has been stagnant for years!! Maybe he knows this and is the real reason he does not take disciples. I would like to see magazine distributed too, but for people to go to the Temple and listen to that guy and serve him by collecting money for his sense gratification is not on!!

 

 

This is real mercy to have such learned Vaishnavas with such huge a store of knowledge at this forum! Go on with the good work!

Agree, I have been reading this forum on and off for sometime and the open knowledge discused is brilliant, the present dictatorial leadership in iskcon cleverly closes new devotees off to what is really going on. I have learn't more on these forums in a month than 4 years of living in the Temple. Some of the posts are brilliant and have opened my eyes. Thank you prabhus

Myself, I have a boycott of ISKCON going on.

I don't distribute anything that will end up leading innocent seekers into the lair of the GBC guru nest.

I understand your point when it comes to Australia, the movement has been stagnated for years and the present leadership club of Ramai Swami and his yes men haven't changed since the 80s, in fact the movement is worse off now than it was in the 70s and 80s. The movement has not matured in Australia, thats a joke. Ramai Swami has always been layback and a non event. I remember when we would go on marathons selling books he would shack up in some motel. The guy is just plain lazy and he is on the GBC? WHAT A JOKE! As long as there are puffed up arrogent proud lazy 'swami's' like him just out to protect their own power basis 'leading' iskcon in Australia, the movement will remain stagnant.