realist

I couldnt have said it better. Gotta find that one for murali. Way, "hole in the fiyeh" brah.

 

mahak

Hari bol!!

OH! JAYA RADHA JAYA RAMANA -c-1994-mahaksadasa

For no apparent reason, Prabhupada comes to deliver.

This Prophet of Gopala, the great gift giver.

From the mud and mire of Babylon we can rise above.

For the gift of His Love, we must give Him love.

Oh! Jaya Radha Jaya Ramana.

To the voice of the mind: "Sing Radha Ramana!"

To the one always singing the song of Harinama.

To the one who gives us life, living in Sri Vrndavana.

To the one showing freedom from the chains of Babylon.

Oh! Jaya Radha Jaya Ramana.

To the thunder in the night, the flame within my heart.

To the wrinkles on the head, the signal for the time to start.

To the life of the Sun so we nevah stay in the dark.

To the Great Blazing Fiyeh from which we are but a spark.

Oh! Jaya Radha Jaya Ramana.

To the one who grants us peace, what we are all looking for.

To the one who holds the key to lock out all the world of War.

To the one who is so obvious, always knocking at my door.

To the One I need to ask, always kindly giving more.

Oh! Jaya Radha Jaya Ramana For no apparent reason, Prabhupada comes to deliver.

it gets worse. as one makes advancement, maya gathers her troops for another round. Like Bhisma is dead, but here comes Karna, followed by Krpacarya, Drona, et al.

 

Chanting, and mahabharata, these are the two needs, especially bhagavad gita as it is, the whole thing, especially the intro (which I just read).

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

I love reading about the brave chivalry of Bhisma

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get that? summarily defeated.

 

Freedom to choose Krsna is inherant in the process. Without, there is only fanaticism, the comparible love versus rape scenario. Some whose only desire is to convince others of that which they have not realized themselves think that something drastic happens to FREE WILL when one attains swarupa. The residents of Goloka are not slaves, they are equals. Krsna is thrown to the forest floor by mere jiva tattwa of sudama and subal. Yasoda cares nothing about god, other things occupy her by her choice to place her love entirely on krsna. CHOOSES.

 

Other wise, this anti free will philosophy means enslavement is our position that when we give up our slavery to maya, we become slaves to vaikuntha, imprisoned to never leave her gates. Sorry, my two AM milking made me sleepy during some of those boring bhagavatam classes, but it seems I woulda heard it somewhere over the last 40 years.

 

The freedom of swarupa siddhi means that the material world doesnt damage us beyond repair. There is no eternal hell in our system, and the evils of psuedo christianity is fully manifesting in the revisionist psuedo krsna cults.

 

I came here to glorify creation, hoping for Answers by citing the Lords version, and like the twilight zone, Im stuck in anothger origin of jiva morass with the same folks saying the same stuff, with the same out of context clip and pastes of prabhupada.

 

This is why we need to wake up, stirring dont count as awake. Jiv Jago, hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Very good reading Prabhu - Hare Krishna

 

As Ananta Sesha floats along the cosmic ocean supporting Lord Maha-Vishnu by serving as the couch upon whom Lord Maha-Vishnu reclines, the universe unfolds from Lord Maha-Vishnu's dream. Lord Brahma, Lord Siva and King Indra standing outside, indicating that they're above the laws of nature. Surabhi cow begging the Lord to free the world from demons. The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is also confirmed in Brahma-saḿhitā: yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. "Being illuminated by the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, everything is freed from all darkness".

 

ananta vaikuṇṭha, āra ananta avatāra

ananta brahmāṇḍa ihāń, — sabāra ādhāra

 

"There are innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets, as well as innumerable incarnations. In the material world also there are innumerable universes, and Kṛṣṇa is the supreme resting place for all of them. Combining all the different elements, the Supreme Lord created all the universes. Those universes are unlimited in number; there is no possibility of counting them.

(Madhya 8.135)

Great post Suchandra, I just spent some time reading you web page, very clever and wonderful preaching.

Democracy is a concern if devotees do not have a good understanding of shastra.

'Might’ or majority rule and opinion is not always right in the material world, try and stop meat eating by democratic vote and see how nonsense democracy really is.

Mainstream law and judgment is not always correct in the material world, ISKCON experienced this with the eleven chosen gurus fiasco and their sannyasi cronies and drones in the 1980’s, who often pushed people away because they were not their yes men and women. They also governed with the fear tactics by putting apprehension into others in order to make them submissive (because of their difference of shastric opinion).

ISKCON has already been through this dreaded experience, neglecting the welfare of devotees because these sannyasis and gurus foolishly and arrogantly thought they new everything, when in fact they had very little vision and insight of what was really going on in the past. NOW they say, after the damage is done, we were not advanced enough at the time. Such comments do not and will never excuse them of their neglecting the devotee’s welfare!!

Nowadays, many have cleverly got away with it over the period of time, using that excuse and proclaiming they where not sophisticated enough back then. Does that excuse them of how they WERE back then? Demanding worship from the devotees, making out they DID KNOW EVERYTHING and were ‘great’ devotees meant to save the human race.

Today such so-called leaders and GBC men claim we never understood back then however, is there a possibility it again can happen? Remember we were suppose to be following a democratic system back then (that was just overridden by the guru or sannyasi anyway if he did not like an idea anyway).

The big down fall down of any democratic system, is where the leaders allow ‘democracy’ to cleverly masquerade in name only for the devotee’s welfare, as we already have experienced, when in fact it is a shame. The many bogus Sannyasis of the 80s ‘pretending’ or ‘imitating’ Srila Prabhupada, were really nothing other than a ‘show’ in dress only, totally stimulated by wearing the outward dress of a sadhu, yet only concerned about their own show of devotional life that blinded them to what was really going on. These material motivated 'know-alls’ always demanded we fall at their feet rather than command respect with their genuin Krishna Consciousness with caring insight and humility. Even when they saw things going wrong they had no idea what to do or deal with it. Back in the 80s and 90s, many Temples were ruled under this ‘ignorant’ dictatorial conceited egotistical leadership in the NAME ONLY of a democratic system or self governing system.

This 'arrogance' must never happen again however, is that possible??- Is it still going on today in some Temples??. Where if you don't do as say and believe in only THEIR way, they just ignore you and turn everyone against you. And then we wonder......

Ideally our society needs autocratic leadership but such qualification is a serious problem in today’s society because of genuine qualification.

With leadership come vast responsibilities

Srila Prabhupada did at times indicate that democracy has a place in ISKCON. For example, in 1974 he instructed the devotees not to change the temple president at Bhaktivedanta Manor without a vote amongst all the devotees. In fact he even went so far as to say that even the GBC could not change the president without a local vote.12

In this way Srila Prabhupada was not averse to democracy, although the usual model of Vedic society is one of autocratic monarchy. Let’s first ask the question: What is democracy? Essentially it is an attempt to give a voice and some power to the people in general. Everyone in any society should have certain rights and some recourse if those rights are abused. If we examine carefully varnashrama dharma, we do see that the rights of the individual are a key feature in role definitions. The leaders themselves are expected to protect the people. There are innumerable examples of such leadership in the Vedas. If one does not fulfil the requirements of the role, then one cannot expect to remain situated in that role and enjoy the privileges thereof. In the case of the leader the check and balance comes from the brahmanas. Woe betide the monarch who, becoming carried away with his position and power, neglects their counsel. (See, for example, the story of King Vena in the Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 4, chapter 14).

I rest my case -

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I prefer to use the words from Prabhupada's teachings that we ONLY 'think' or 'imagine' we are fallen when in actual fact we are never fallen. Just like a cloud covers the sun it does not mean the sun is not there similarly, we presently cannot see our svarupa body but it eternally is there in Goloka - like the cloud covering the sun, this material world covers our vision and view of who we eternally are as our svarupa body.

This is easy to understand if you want to or desire too realizes this.

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The word vardi means impersonal brahmajyoti. Maybe the real sleepervadi’s or fall-avadis are members of the present day version of the Gaudiya math. The word vardi is closer to their mundane impersonal Brahmajyoti origins.

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If you read my post a little closer you would notice that I clearly differentiate between the planetary elevations Srimad Bhagavatam is writing about, and the distances SP is talking about. These two are not really the same thing. If you dont understand that difference you will certainly misunderstand my post, just like you will misunderstand Bhagavatam on this particular issue.

 

People tend to belittle themselves when they speak in definite terms on subject matters they have not studied enough. I have done it myself more than once.

Then why don't you accept Srila Prabhupadas teachings that we are ALL presently in Goloka but presently on 'think' we are not?

More time wasted .....

Better to chant ,stick to sattvik diet ,follow the guru.....

Understanding can come either through "theory" or through "direct experience"...

Theoretical understanding is an ever shifting "goal post"

Only understanding derived from direct experience can be sustained....

Experience will come FASTER to those who sincerely follow the rules and if they can get guru's grace......

the guru can be a iskconite ,non iskconite,shaiva or shakta.....

the STUDENT who accepts a theoretical belief system (vaishnavism ,shaivism,shaktism) has absolutely "NO AUTHORITY".... and his /her ENDORSEMENT of any system is USELESS because his/her understanding of shastras is a "FROG IN A WELL UNDERSTANDING"

"The scriptures cannot be understood without guru's grace".

All belief systems are abusive to a STUDENT because they force him/her to believe things which are ILLOGICAL.however when followed according to the rules can be VERY HELPFUL.

 

better to follow the rules ,chant etc a word to the wise.The rebels however will ultimately gain better theoretical understanding at the risk of diluting his/her faith in his/her own beliefs.

 

Follow not your heart ...follow not your brain .......follow your intution ... the antaryamin.

I don't know about YOU but I chant Hare Krishna, attend the Temple every day, render service to the dieties, distribute PRABHUPADA'S books and read Prabhupada's books, listen to His lectures and morning walks and study the many letters he wrote to understand and be part of his REAL ISKCON society that establishes the facts of what the eternal 'present' is (Goloka time) and what temporary time is in the mahat-tattva. Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to write down our realizations and not just be mindless parrots quoting slokas and mantras

Don't think PRABHOOOO (seems to be your moto), just chant Hare Krishna and give up your individuality and do what we tell you to do, Surrender Prabhooo. Is this nonsense comment the REAL teachings of Krishna Consciousness and our Srila Prabhupada really about?

Fortunately that immature, restricted dictatorial patronizing character destroying version of ISKCON no longer exists because such a lie can never be maintained, except with some Temples and Swamis and their 'yes' followers that are still stagnated and living in a 80s and 90s time warp however, even those who are just more clever at holding their breath better than others, will eventually just fade away over the next thirty years leaving only the preserved teachings of Srila Prabhupada and his real ISKCON Movement.

More time wasted .....

Better to chant ,stick to sattvik diet ,follow the guru.....

Understanding can come either through "theory" or through "direct experience"...

Theoretical understanding is an ever shifting "goal post"

Only understanding derived from direct experience can be sustained....

Experience will come FASTER to those who sincerely follow the rules and if they can get guru's grace......

the guru can be a iskconite ,non iskconite,shaiva or shakta.....

the STUDENT who accepts a theoretical belief system (vaishnavism ,shaivism,shaktism) has absolutely "NO AUTHORITY".... and his /her ENDORSEMENT of any system is USELESS because his/her understanding of shastras is a "FROG IN A WELL UNDERSTANDING"

"The scriptures cannot be understood without guru's grace".

All belief systems are abusive to a STUDENT because they force him/her to believe things which are ILLOGICAL.however when followed according to the rules can be VERY HELPFUL.

 

better to follow the rules ,chant etc a word to the wise.The rebels however will ultimately gain better theoretical understanding at the risk of diluting his/her faith in his/her own beliefs.

 

Follow not your heart ...follow not your brain .......follow your intution ... the antaryamin.

I don't know about YOU but I chant Hare Krishna, read Prabhupada's books, listen to His lectures and morning walks and study the many letters he wrote to understand and be part of his REAL ISKCON society that establishes the facts of what the eternal 'present' is (Goloka time) and what temporary time is in the mahat-tattva. Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to write down our realizations and not just be mindless parrots quoting slokas and mantras

Don't think PRABHOOOO, just chant Hare Krishna give up your individuality and do what we tell you to do, Surrender Prabhooo - Is that nonsense comment what Krishna Consciousness and our Srila Prabhupada really about? Fortunately that immature, restricted dictatorial patronizing character destroying version of ISKCON no longer exists because such a lie can never be maintained, except with some Temples and Swamis and their 'yes' followers that are still stagnated and living in a 80s and 90s time warp.

When one goes "back home, back to Godhead", and enters into Krsna's pastimes it's as if he never left, but only to an extent. In Srila Sanatana Goswami's Brhad Bhagavatmrta, the Gopa Kumar is embraced by Krsna and they both faint in ecstacy. Krsna then tells him, "how could you stay away so long from your real home? I know about all the troubles and sacrifices you made for Me on your journey back home." Much of the Gopa Kumar's journey took place in the realm of material time, yet Krsna accepts it here as a reality. This means as Srila Prabhupada has stated many times that the material world and therefore material time are real, but temporary. The dream theory is based on taking analogies as pure fact and not just analogies. Our material existence is "like" a dream, but dreams are not real in the gross aspect. The gross matter that we are presently encaged in is real but temporary. The Sleeper-Vad Heresey is defeated by Srila Sanatana Goswami's Brhat Bhagavatmrta as well as Srila Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma and cannot stand in their light. The swarupa of the jiva or living entity is not engaging in Krsna lila in Goloka while he dreams that he is in the material world. The "nitya siddha krsna prema sadhya kabu naya" verse of C.C. means that we are nitya siddha in the sense that our eternal swarupa is existing in seed form, only. It can only become developed by sadhu sanga and hearing and chanting under divine guidance.

I prefer to use the words from Prabhupada's teachings that we ONLY 'think' or 'imagine' we are fallen when in actual fact we are never fallen. Just like a cloud covers the sun it does not mean the sun is not there similarly, we presently cannot see our svarupa body but it eternally is there in Goloka - like the cloud covering the sun, this material world covers our vision and view of who we eternally are as our svarupa body.

This is easy to understand if you want to or desire too realizes this.

Here is a couple of quotes on the Moon issue. Go to the sleepervadi threads for quotes on the fall from Vaikuntha

 

Morning Walk, Perth, 05/18/1975

Prabhupada: Yes. They might have gone to some hellish planet, where there is only sand, only, and very hot, and the culprit is pushed through that deserted place to the Yamaraja. And before going to Yamaraja he has to suffer so much. There are places, copperlike, you see. (aside:) Hare Krishna. So hot, and the criminal has to go on that copper land. There are mentioned for many millions of miles simply copper, and one has to pass through that to Yamaraja. So, they might have gone to some such place, not to the moon planet, who is the source of vegetation even throughout the whole universe—and in his own planet there is no vegetation. Now I am sure they have not gone to moon planet. How they will go? It is beyond the sun. I was protesting that they have not gone; now I am convinced that they have not gone. The Russian scientists and the American scientists joined on the platform, "Don’t expose me, I don’t expose you." (laughter) (Bengali) "You have to do your business and same I have to do my business. Let us support one another." In all other case, they are inimical, and the scientific field they are friends. That means that if a scientist, another scientist, opposes me, then my attempt will be futile, so let us don’t do it.

 

Room Conversation with Reporter, Los Angeles, 06/04/1976

Prabhupada: Yes. From the.... That question I was discussing the other day. In the common sense, gross sense, that all over the world, they accept Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, in this way Saturday last. So why these arrangement? Sunday first and Monday second, and nobody could reply it. But as a layman I can conclude that Sun planet is first and the moon planet is next. So if you cannot go to the sun planet, which is ninety-three million miles away, how you can go to the moon planet within four days? Nobody could answer me. Can you answer?

(...)

Prabhupada: According to our sastra, the moon planet is above the sun planet, and the distance is 1,600,000 miles. So accepting that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, then you add another 1,600,000, almost 2,000,000, it becomes 15,000,000 miles away. So if you go at the speed of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes more than 6 months. So how you go there in 4 days? And you advertise in the paper: "Now, they have reached." After 4 days.

 

Actually this last quote shows that SP clearly equates Sun and Moon's elevation with respect to Bhu-mandala plane of existence with linear distance from Earth. And that is the root of the apparent error, as the two are not the same.

 

 

 

I don't think you argument is belittling the teachings of NOT only Srila Prabhupada, it’s the entire Vedic texts you are questioning. Srila Prabhupada is only repeating the teachings of Srimad Bhagavatam. Personally I am convinced that man has been to the moon but NOT the heavenly dimension that exists there.

I recently went to a radio telescope and to a big telescope at an observatory in the US and there are beckons on the moon we would be stupied to deny. Anyway it doesn’t change my conviction or membership in the fall-avadi club, although I must object to the word vardi that means impersonal brahmajyoti. Maybe the real fall-avadis or sleep-avadis therefore are members of the present version of the Gaudiya math.

so, vigraha is going to tell us all the correct understanding of what time is?

On another thread he was spouting off that there is no time in the spiritual world.

I exposed his bogus understanding and presented shastric proof that there is time in the spiritual world of Vaikuntha.

 

So, now he starts a topic and proposed to tell us all what the proper understanding of time is?

 

Why does he always come off as the teacher and master when he has shown time and again that he doen't have a good grasp on Gaudiya siddhanta?

 

Vigraha wrote:

 

 

I replied:

Another fairytale myth that there is no time in the spiritual world.

There is time in the spiritual world.

 

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kālo 'yaḿ dvi-parārdhākhyo

nimeṣa upacaryate

avyākṛtasyānantasya

hy anāder jagad-ātmanaḥ

 

SYNONYMS

kālaḥ — eternal time; ayam — this (as measured by Brahmā's duration of life); dvi-parārdha-ākhyaḥ — measured by the two halves of Brahmā's life; nimeṣaḥ — less than a second; upacaryate — is so measured; avyākṛtasya — of one who is unchanged; anantasya — of the unlimited; hi — certainly; anādeḥ — of the beginningless; jagat-ātmanaḥ — of the soul of the universe.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The duration of the two parts of Brahmā's life, as above mentioned, is calculated to be equal to one nimeṣa [less than a second] for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is unchanging and unlimited and is the cause of all causes of the universe.

 

 

Purport (excerpt):

In the spiritual world there is undoubtedly time, but it has no control over activities. Time is unlimited, and the spiritual world is also unlimited, since everything there exists on the absolute plane.

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So, your fairytale can't hold up on the fairytale that there is no time in the spiritual world because that fairytale is also another ISKCON myth.

ISKCON is Prabhupada. Also there is Goloka time, which is the eternal present, and material time, which is divided up into past, present and future. The diffence between Goloka time and material time is time in Goloka is imperishable, meaning everything is always there without any beginning or ending, while material time is temporary, perishable and always decaying, I think thats what Vigraha is saying

theory is such a waste of time ...... better to chant .....

hare krishna.....

I remember once Bhagavan 'goswami' gave a lecture years ago and said to the Sunday feast crowd, 'come and join our ISKCON and we will do even the thinking for you, just chant Hare Krishna and we will tell you what to do and when to do it, that’s the real meaning of surrender, don't think, just chant Hare Krishna give up your individuality and do what we tell you to do, Surrender Prabhooo - Is that nonsense comment what Krishna Consciousness and our Srila Prabhupada really about? Fortunately that immature, restricted dictatorial patronizing character destroying version of ISKCON no longer exists because such a lie can never be maintained, except with some <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Temples</st1:place></st1:City> and Swamis and their 'yes' followers that are still stagnated and living in a 80s and 90s time warp.

I don't know about Vigraga but I chant Hare Krishna, read Prabhupada's books, listen to His lectures and morning walks and study the many letters he wrote to understand and be part of his REAL ISKCON society that establishes the facts of what the eternal 'present' is (Goloka time) and what temporary time is in the mahat-tattva. Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to write down our realizations and not just be mindless parrots quoting slokas and mantras

Yeah it’s a difficult proposal to understand because of the terminologies. Maybe the word ‘dream’ is not a good word either. Because of the time factor in Vaikuntha. Maybe its like putting a DVD on pause, going off to something else and on return we take the ‘pause’ off. So it’s not that we are dreaming from Vaikuntha either. It’s a difficult one to understand. Maybe everyone is saying the same thing in different ways although the ‘pause the DVD’ analogy suggests we are in Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

HANSADUTTA: It’s not a matter of aspiring to some –

PRABHUPADA: No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada: “Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Where does Prabhupada ever say or write that the jiva soul sojourning from body to body through 8,400,000 species of life has a "swarupa body" that already exists in Goloka? This if obviously an embelishment based on certain conversations and letters, but Prabhupada never used the "swarupa body" terminology which is part of a philosophy that takes analogies as literal facts. The concoction that we are in Goloka literally dreaming that we are here, when the dreaming concept is really only an analogy.

Another point is that there seems to be some sort of fixation on Goloka as if all jiva's serve Vraja Krsna. What about the devotees of Sita Rama, are we to assume that they originate in Goloka? Since they go or go back to Ayodhya then why would they originate in Goloka? And of course, again, there is the question: If the fallen jivas already have a "swarupa body" just like the eternal inhabitants of Goloka who are Krsna's internal associates then what's the difference between us and them? The answer again would be none, except that the nitya baddhas would be in a better position than the nitya siddhas because they don't ever have to come back to the material world after becoming siddha (BG 15.6). Then what's the point of calling the eternal sevitors of the Lord in Goloka siddhas of any type for their perfection would be actually nonexistent? Thus the Fall-Vadis have no answer. It seems that the Sleeper-Vadi apasiddhanta is really an atempt to create such an answer where there really is none. There are so many questions myself and others have asked the Sleeper-Vadi camp, yet it appears that have no real answers for these contradictions although they think that taking the dream analogies literally solves the contradictions which it doesn't. Another point is that it seems that both the Fall-Vadis and the Sleeper Vadis only have an interest in the most basic foundations of the Krsna Conscious philosophy. The more subtle points about Krsna and his lilas even from a safe philisophical approach seem to have almost no appeal to them. Perhaps it is because the higher level of bhakti as described in the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is really based on Vaisnava seva and Vaisnava bhakti. ye me bhakta jana-partha na me bhaktas ca te janah. "One who says he is My devotee is not My devotee, but one who worships My devotee is My real devotee." What's the point of worshiping the devotees if we are those devotees, ourselves, except that we don't know it because we are dreaming in Goloka? Remind me not to join such a religion!

He did use the svarupa terminology I found these quotes on dandavats

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

In other words our Svarupa body is eternal even if we are dreaming we are in the maha-tattva or tatastha condition of consciousness. Also being in tatastha is NOT spiritual in the sense of devotional mellows as Srila Prabhupada has explained.

Also the meaning of the Sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974

Guruvani is right when he says Krishna's devotees never fall down from Goloka and Vaikuntha, therefore he wins the debate. THIS IS WHAT I FOUND SURFING THE WEB.

"Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul's falling into maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

This is because most NEVER make that silly choice to enter the material 'dream' world of Maha Vishnu and forget Krishna and their own svarupa body. Such devotees desire to always remember Krishna and never choose any 'abstractional imagined self-glorifying substitute and therefore forget Him. Most marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha’s) prefer to never ever move into the ‘apparition’ creation of Maha-Vishnu however, that is their preference, choice and aspiration.

Most devotees therefore (75%) have ALWAYS remained aware of who they are ( SVARUPA) and what their service is to KRISHNA and NEVER 'dream' of coming here to the material world. Such devotee NEVER miss use their free will for self centred aspirations that cause them to forget Krishna and their everlasting ‘svarupa’ bodily identity, yet that option is always their regardless because of their marginal identity.

Such a preference to use their free will in the way they yearn actually allows the living entity to further increase their love or service to Krishna boundlessly as expected of an individual free thinking being. This is also what marginal means (a sovereign being) however, it also allows one to miss use it if they choose. And that is another reason why the material creation of Maha-Vishnu exists.

That’s the point Srila Prabhupada is making.

"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

"By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

“Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krishna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this.” Just like some of our students, Krishna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prison house, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prison house. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that”. Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

"We have fallen down in this material world. But there are devotees in the spiritual world, in the Vaikunthaloka, they never come down. Never come down in this material world, but they are also persons like us, but eternal persons, with full knowledge and life of blissfulness. That is the difference between them and us". Srila Prabhupada (741105SB.BOM)

Then Srila Prabhupada futher clarifies this

"A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called maya, is always available, otherwise there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly". (Bhag. 3.31.15, purp.)

Those who never fall down simply choose to NEVER forget Krishna.

"The living beings are given as much freedom as they deserve, and misuse of that freedom is the cause of suffering. The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom, and therefore they are the good sons of the Lord". (Bhag. 1.8.28, purp.)

Once again, that is their preference to never leave Goloka EXCEPT in Krishna Lila. These are imperative point to appreciate.

4. There is no mention of an origin in the Viraja <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<ST1:PlaceName w:st=" /><ST1:PlaceType w:st="on">River</ST1:PlaceType>.

5. We are not eternally conditioned, in the sense of being always in the material word and never having been with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world.

On the basis of this statement alone, we can confidently answer the questions raised at the beginning of this paper. Yes, we were originally with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. No, we are not from the brahmajyoti. No, we are not eternally conditioned. No, we are not originally from the <st1:place w:st="on"><ST1:PlaceName w:st="on">Viraja</ST1:PlaceName> <ST1:PlaceType w:st="on">River</ST1:PlaceType></st1:place>. No, our relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> was not undeveloped.

The reason that we can answer the questions so confidently in this way is that the crow and tal fruit message was given by Srila Prabhupada in direct answer to the same controversy that faces us today. In this message, Srila Prabhupada also offers adjustments to other statements that appear contradictory.

To the impersonalists it appears that they are from the brahmajyoti because in any particular creation they may indeed be coming down from there. But before that they were with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. It is sometimes said we are eternally conditioned, but that is only because we cannot trace out the exact moment when we departed from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s lila. By comparing the state of the conditioned soul to a dreaming man, Srila Prabhupada implicitly gives an adjustment of the “no one falls from Vaikuntha” statements.

The dreaming man simply thinks he has gone somewhere else. The conditioned soul may think he has left Krishna’s lila, but actually he is still in touch with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. In the same way, we are never out of Vaikuntha, but we are just dreaming that we are somewhere else. In other statements, Srila Prabhupada expresses this more explicitly. As we shall see, this view is also in harmony with the statements of the previous acaryas as well as the Srimad-Bhagavatam, which Jiva Goswami calls the topmost Vedic authority”.

Srila Prabhupada also has directly stated in this text that we were not originally in the brahmajyoti. And in the first part of the text he said: “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration.” So when Srila Prabhupada said we were in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s lila, he meant before we were covered by the material energy, maya. In this context, the only allowable reading of lila is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s pastimes, as we commonly understand them from the Tenth Canto of the Bhagavatam. But when we come to the material world, we remain in Krishna’s lila in the sense of being in contact with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s energies.

Drutakarma Dasa - ‘So in this famous crow and tal fruit message, which was given by Srila Prabhupada in order to resolve the same controversy that faces us today, Srila Prabhupada makes the following points about the conditioned souls:

1. We were originally with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in His lila, or sport.

2. We are not originally from the brahmajyoti.

3. By comparing the situation of the conditioned souls with that of Jaya and Vijaya, Srila Prabhupada indicates that the original relationship was one of active service in a spiritual planet.

There are many, many devotees who follow this understanding. Your posts are very interesting Guruvani, don't feel threatened by seeking the truth, I am also only trying sincerely to get to the heart of what Prabhupada is saying. I have been studying your argument and quotes and others argument who reject our fall from Vaikuntha in this way by saying ‘When we cannot contact <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s lila’? And it is this way we are always with Krishna in His lila’? I have heard some say that when Srila Prabhupada earlier said that we were originally with Krishna in His lila, or sport, they thought that this might just mean that we were in contact with one of Krishna’s energies—maya or the brahmajyoti. In other words, it doesn’t mean we were with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> personally. But this interpretation is not supported by Srila Prabhupada and he rejects their idea.

This Impersonal inactive condition of consciousness known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is also a temporary dreaming dreamless state.

Srila Prabhupada “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”.

Srila Prabhupada ‘Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased; better to spend time curing the disease’.

Here Srila Prabhupada directly rejects the idea that the conditioned soul was originally in the brahmajyoti. Srila Prabhupada then recommends that we not waste time with the question of our origin. But note that he first gave clear answers to the question. We should follow the same policy. Answer the question as above, and then suggest we not waste further time with it.

The more I reasch this Guruvani the more I discover what Prabhupada is actually saying, its an extremely fascinating revelation

Srila Prabhupada “There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

There are two conditions or states of consciousness, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state of consciousness is eternally in a bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self. The covered state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is actually the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that forgets their perpetual or endless nitya-siddha bodily self serving Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the maha-tattva. In other words the free state (nitya-siddha) is perpetually with Krishna and the covered state (nitya-baddha) is with either with Maha-Vishnu in the impermanent mahat-tattva (material creation), or merged as a dormant state of individual consciousness. This characteristic of individual consciousness formulates their nitya-baddha perceptiveness appear like a ‘spark of effulgence’ that IS, along with other dormant nitya-baddha consciousnesses, the collective Impersonal feature we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. This is what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti really is – simply the marginal living entities inferior nitya-baddha consciousness existing in a dormant inactive dreamless state of awareness.