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Fallen means fallen asleep and into a dream state. This dream state is called maya. This is why Mahaprabhu exhorts us "Jiv Jago Jiv Jago," wake up sleeping souls.

 

Rather we fell into this dream state from Goloka or the Brahmajyoti is irrelevant at this point. It is not worth the effort to strenuously argue in favor of one or the other. To do so takes an interesting philosophical point, the answer of which lies beyond the purview of our minds, and turns the natural questioning of the mind into a prolonged session of mental masturbation. IM (not so humble) O of course.

 

When we successfully awaken from this illusory dream state the reality will be self apparent. So if we really want the answer to the question of our original position the quickest and indeed only way to realize the answer is to wake up and not to continually rehash it over and over in our heads.

Good points

Panca-dravida: Srila Prabhupada, what is our fortune that we've come in contact with a qualified guru? What have we done to qualify to come in contact with you?

Revatinandana: In other words, why do some come and others not come?

Prabhupada: It is the ajnata-sukrti, say. Ajnata-sukrti. You might have done something, very pious activities, which you do not know, but on the effect of...

Madhudvisa: So it seems like it's up to chance, then.

Prabhupada: No chance. Just like a sinful man. Some saintly person comes to him and he gives some money to him. He does not know that "I am doing very pious activity," but because he has given, he becomes pious.

Revatinandana: If not even a blade of grass moves unless Krsna sanctions it, then why does someone have the opportunity to perform such ajnata-sukrti, another person not?

Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna wants... Suppose a saintly person comes to a very sinful man. He needs some money. Immediately Krsna says, "Give him some money. He requires." So he says, "All right, sir, take it." So Krsna's desires, he gives. Unless Krsna dictates from within, how he can give?

Harisauri: So then where is the question of free will? If I want to give or not give...

Prabhupada: No, no, free will under Krsna. You can become free will and become a big man immediately. Your free will sanctioned by Krsna. You are not so free that whatever you like, you can do.

Madhudvisa: So even if I want to perform some ajnata-sukrti, it is only by Krsna's mercy that I will do it.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. (CC Madhya 19.151)

As soon as he gives to a saintly person, bhakta, he immediately acquires some asset of future development. Immediately.

Acyutananda: If someone gives to a person for spiritual..., consciously for spiritual improvement...

Prabhupada: There is no question of...

Acyutananda: ...and the person misuses the money, does he benefit?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Acyutananda: If a man says, "I am giving you this donation because it is a spiritual organization," but if the money is misused, does that man benefit?

Prabhupada: If money is misused, then both of them become implicated. If it is not used for Krsna, then both of them becomes under the laws of karma.

Acyutananda: But that man is sincere.

Prabhupada: Well, this word sincere, there is no meaning unless he is a devotee. Ei bala ei manda sab mano dharma: "These are all mental concoction." There is no meaning. "This man is good. This man is sincere. This man is bad. This man is..." They are all mental concoction. Only good is he who is Krsna conscious. Others all rascals.

Harisauri: So if Krsna has given the dictation, then is He dictating every sinful man to give?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Harisauri: Is he dictating every sinful man to give?

Prabhupada: Why do you question like that? Krsna is so foolish that He will dictate to give to a foolish, er, sinful man? It is odd question.

Harisauri: This is that point that does one come to..., does one get contact with a pure devotee and advance like that from his own free will, from accepting the mercy of the spiritual master or not?

Prabhupada: What does he say? Hm?

Harisauri: The point.... The point...

Prabhupada: Somebody answer.

Jayadvaita: Not every sinful man is dictated to give money; otherwise they'd all be giving us money. They're all sinful. We'd be getting money from everyone.

Revatinandana: But then the question is why some and not others also?

Trivikrama: Krsna is in everyone's heart.

Gurukrpa: But some are innocent.

Prabhupada: That is Krsna's dictation.

Revatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. And you cannot bind Krsna to dictate in a similar way. If He likes, He can ask a sinful man, "Do this." If He doesn't like, He may not act. That is Krsna.

Revatinandana: So ultimately it is simply by the mercy of Krsna...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: ...that he comes back to Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. So it is Krsna's business where to show mercy, where not to show. You cannot oblige Him that "You show mercy everywhere." No. Naham prakasah sarvasya yoga-maya-samavrtah. Krsna.... You cannot oblige Krsna, "You do this." That is not Krsna. That is not Krsna.

If one is obliged to act to your dictation, then he is not Krsna. Therefore whatever Krsna likes, He'll do.

You cannot oblige Him that "You have to do it." No. That is karma-mimamsa, that "If good work gives good result, so why should we care for Krsna? We shall do the good work."

That is... Ordinary people, they think like that. Karma-mimamsa. "If I do good work, Krsna will be obliged to give me good effect. Why shall I care for Krsna?"

That is karma-mimamsa. "Work is final. Do good work, that's all." They say like that. But we say, even if you do good work, if Krsna does not want it, then it will not produce good result. That is Krsna.

Trivikrama: We don't have the mercy of Krsna yet, so...

Prabhupada: No, no. Everyone has got the mercy, but that mercy is not obligatory. If He likes, He can give you mercy; if He does not like, He may not.

Trivikrama: But everyone has it.

Prabhupada: Everyone... He is giving mercy. That is general. But if He does not like, He may not give you. You cannot make Him obliged.

Panca-dravida: So why is it, then, if it's a question of ajnata-sukrti... The Indians, from their birth they're watering Tulasi, they're chanting Hare Krsna, they're doing so many activities, but mostly your disciples are foreigners?

Prabhupada: So that... No, means that is temporary. They may come again. It will never go in vain. Just like this cloud. Cloud is meant for raining. Now it is not raining, but when there is sufficient cloud, it will rain. You cannot say there is no rain. There is, but it is not sufficiently collected. When it is sufficiently collected, then.

Giriraja Swami, Nectar of Devotion course, Vrindavan 1994(?): Well, there's something called ajnata-sukrti, which means some activity that's favorable to Krsna consciousness in which the person is not aware of the fact that he is doing devotional service.

So, in a broad definition of bhakti, just like someone sees a devotee and he just appreciates that the devotee is nice, so that appreciation... one makes advancement by that appreciation, but he doesn't know that the person is a devotee and that he is engaged in devotional service, but he just appreciates the person, so the person makes advancement.

Now whether we want to say that's devotional service or something preliminary to devotional service, it would depend, because definitions can be more broad or more narrow and when Srila Prabhupada is in a more generous mood, he may call it devotional service, but when he's discussing in a more strict way, it becomes like a preliminary activity and when enough of such preliminary activities accumulate, then one can engage in devotional service.

But you see it can't be considered pious activity, because devotional service isn't caused by anything material, so no amount of pious activity can cause devotional service to manifest. But these activities, they're like devotional service, but they're not exactly devotional service.

...they're favorable to the devotee, the devotee is related to Krsna, so therefore they're favorable to Krsna and Krsna will be pleased, that "O, he's appreciating My devotee..."

Bhaktivinoda Thakura has said that there are two types of fortunate activities.

One which leads to bhakti and one which doesn't lead to bhakti and the type that doesn't lead to bhakti is not really fortunate.

So activities like giving in charity may help or they may not help, but ajnata-sukrti, which means activities favorable to Krsna consciousness done without knowledge, that will definitely lead to Krsna consciousness.

Just like when Srila Prabhupada went to New York - at one of the programs he wanted to sell his books after the program, so he asked someone in the audience to help him sell his books.

So the person didn't know what is Krsna consciousness, who is Srila Prabhupada, what is devotional service, but he did unknowingly something. So that's ajnata-sukrti and when such ajnata-sukrti accumulates, then one becomes very open to Krsna consciousness.

Pious activity, especially in relation to pure devotees, makes one fortunate. But we cannot say that... I'll give an example: the same topic was discussed with Srila Prabhupada.

And Srila Prabhupada was saying, that you cannot say that bhakti is caused by karma, because that would mean that bhakti is subservient to karma; that means that Krsna has to give bhakti.

So this is the karma-mimamsa theory: that everything is karma and if one does good karma, God has to give the result. So don't care for God, just care for karma. So that's the karma-mimamsa theory.

So if bhakti were, if one could get bhakti by karma, then where is Krsna, where is Krsna's independence.

So Srila Prabhupada gave the example that ajnata-sukrti, it accumulates. Like sometimes we see many pious people in India, people who are more pious than we were. They chant, they pour water on Tulasidevi and they're vegetarian and so many things. But they don't actually take to devotional service. But Srila Prabhupada said "Yes, but whatever they are doing is not going in vain. It's all good

So Raghubir Prabhu also made a good point, that with a moment's association, you can get some ajnata-sukrti and ultimately the ajnata-sukrti could lead to bhakti.

Karma-unmukhi-sukrti - virtue or merit from pious acts

Jnana-unmukhi-sukrti - virtue or merit from the cultivation of knowledge

Bhakty-unmukhi-sukrti - virtue or merit from devotional activities

Srila Prabhupada - "So this is the karma-mimamsa theory: that everything is karma and if one does good karma, God has to give the result. So don't care for God, just care for karma. So that's the karma-mimamsa theory.

So if bhakti were, if one could get bhakti by karma, then where is Krsna, where is Krsna's independence".

Stop being a snake in the grass BhaktiK, just because you can't defeat others, who ever they are, you go all snakey, we all see through imaturity. Try to keep to shastra

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by SHIVA

After reading the above, only a dumb fool or mischievous rascal will assert that the great acarya has not given a clear "conclusion" on the matter. Those who knowingly do not accept the above "conclusion" should not posture and parade themselves as disciples of Srila Prabhupada. They are deviants from Srila Prabhupada's "conclusion". And it is their misinterpretation of certain particular statements of Srila Prabhupada that is the cause of any "apparent contradiction", not the original teachings of Srila Prabhupada. "

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

Now is there anything clearer than the above?

This kind of rhetoric gives us a taste of the dismal philosophical outlook to follow in Balavidya's thesis.

He simply dismisses everyone as fake disciples, rascals, and dumb fools, if they do not accept the above statement from Srila Prabhupada as the sole final word on the matter.

Well, what about the countless times Srila Prabhupada said that the jiva was originally in Vaikuntha?

I guess that doesn't matter to Balavidya dasa. Nevertheless those statements are real and are not the product of stupid people's fantasies. Do we get some type of reason to consider that all of those statements by Srila Prabhupada which are contradictory to the above statement should be neglected?

Or that they mean something other then what Srila Prabhupada said? In his own way I guess the next part of his thesis is Balavidya's attempt to reconcile the apparent contradictory claims on the origin of the jiva by Srila Prabhupada.

He takes to the writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in order to prove his point, specifically Jaiva Dharma. First off I would like to know whose translation he is using. The translations available for free on the Internet (one by the Gaudiya Math and another by HH Narayana Maharaja) is not the translation he is using.

Both of those translations are similar, but they differ a bit in the wording. The translation Balavidya dasa is using differs profoundly from those translations. In fact, the translation he is using is putting forth a philosophy which seems to me to be contradictory to basic Gaudiya tattva.

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Do You Want Blessings? Why is it important to avoid offenses? We advance by receiving the blessings and mercy of superior persons. We receive those blessings through honoring, serving, and appreciating them, as well as by following their instructions.

 

Your and my success in bhakti is totally dependant on the blessings of the vaisnavas. If we offend them, we can cut ourselves off from the very blessings we need to maintain our life in Krsna consciousness.

 

So offending vaisnavas is like pulling the plug on our spiritual life support systems. Think of this analogy the next time you are tempted to make an offense or criticize.

 

Loving Krsna Means Respecting Others We should also be careful to not offend people in general (jana aparadha).

 

To love Krsna means to show affection for ALL of his parts and parcels. .

Servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of Krsna

Wow, if we could really achieve this prideless selfless level, we could help make the whole world Krishna Conscious

Wonderfully inspiring post suchandra

We CAN understand even now by the 'causeless' mercy of the Spiritual Master.

 

Shakti-Fan says - 'When we actually "realise" Krsna then our "knowing" will be completely different'.

 

Not different, just undercovered.

 

The layer of past, present and future will be lifted that leaves ONLY the 'eternal present' that leaves one with the feeling and responsiveness they have ALWAYS been in Goloka.

 

Don't think that just because you cannot understand through personal realizations, no one else can.

 

How does the old saying go- 'As I think the whole world thinks?'

 

Thats why we have a Spiritual Master who guides us.

Interesting

Sunday, February 03, 2008

Keep praying for Lila!

Current mood: anxious

I am re-posting this for those that know sweet Lila

(from Kalindi in Chicago)

This is from nilus dad who talked to subhangi (lilas mom)

Haribol Prabhu's

 

Here is the whole story, let me fill you both in on all the drama here. Lila is here in Vrindaban they just arrive a few minutes ago now staying in one of the MVT rooms since the police have closed off their apt. rooms.

This story was flashed on all the papers in India and Australia. Big Television coverage with all kinds of different stories. Making the story more dramatic than what it real was. Subhangi and family are now ok with the fact that she is now in Vrindaban again- she will be on life support until 10 days or more by Indian law but Subhangi wants just to let her go.

 

Her brain is dead she had 3 bullets go in and one is still logged inside. She can hear, so Subhangi is preaching to her. When they turn off the machine she will go immediately.

 

When the ambulance pulled in just now they were escorted with dozens of police with machine guns, now that she is international news. So much drama Mighty is here she witnessed the whole thing she had the urge to kill the boy with a big knife she had ready but couldn't get herself to kill him.

The story as I hear it goes like this; Lila was trying to shake this fellow for the last year, finally they felt he was gone but shows up at late night at the Pepsi building and drunk makes threats and finally goes away.

Later he returns with a gun and goes up to their room and forces his way in threatening to kill her and himself. Madhu was brave and took the gun away from the fellow who turns out to be the son of a famous Minister or some one prominent in Government here.

The boy then apologized and said he would leave and not bother them again. He grabbed back the gun and took Lila into the bathroom there in their house and locked the door from inside and proceeded to rape her and threatened to kill her and himself again if she said anything. She started to scream and he shot her three times in the head and then put the gun to his own head and died immediately.

Madhu broke open the door and found the two of them covered in blood. This is the story I heard from Subhangi -others tell more that this boy had raped Lila before and she was afraid to tell anyone since he kept threatening her and said the same story over and over he would kill her if she spoke.

Who could imagine this happening here in Vrindaban, the media picked up on this story and it was big news in Australia. I write all this so you have the clear picture of what happened here.

There will be kirtan going on and when they decide to let her go I'm sure many devotees will be there to see her off, for sure she is going back home, lucky in a sense to get to go back home at such an early age.

Nilu I know you and her were so close I remember all those days like it was yesterday, both of you growing up together. Subhangi and family are handling the whole thing with cool reserve now that the shock has worn off and they are back in Vrindaban

 

 

 

LiLa (vrindavan) leaves her body

 

 

Last night Lila, a devoted Hare Krishna, was taken on the three-hour trip back to Vrindavan where family and friends surrounded her bed and chanted Hare Krishna as she left her body for her journey back home, back to Krishna

 

Thoughout her short life in this world, she was very attached to His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and always had a photo of him near her.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The last posting by (LILA) THAT IS SO WONDERFUL AND TRULY AMAZING!!

 

She writes on the 29th Jan 2008 just a week before her passing -

 

"pranam fellow kuli's..

 

I am back in the icecube of vrindavan and mann is it freeeezing....but i am enjoying it anyways.. all is well just waiting to head to aus soon (end of feb sumtime)....so lets see..

 

Hope all are in good health. Love to all.. Bolo radhee!!!!!!! Just read this (BELOW) and it makes me think 'yes prabhupad is still here and I know it, I always have '.

 

May 17: Note this was at a situation when Srila Prabhupada was critically

ill and actually he passed away five months from then.

 

 

 

 

If death takes place, let it take here. There is nothing to be said now.

Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to

understand it and continue your endeavor.

 

 

 

 

 

Whether I am present or not

present, it doesn’t matter. As Krishna is living eternally, similarly,

living being also lives eternally.

 

 

 

 

 

But ”One who has done service to the Lord

lives forever.” So you have been taught to serve Krishna, and with Krishna

we’ll live eternally. Our life is eternal.

 

 

 

 

 

A temporary disappearance of this

body doesn’t matter. Body is meant for disappearance. So live forever by

 

 

 

 

 

serving Krishna -.

 

 

 

 

 

Srila prabhupada

Vrindavan, May 17, 1977.

 

 

 

 

 

BANKE BIHARI LAL KI JAI!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

RADHA SHYAMSUNDAR KI JAI!!!

 

 

 

 

 

RADHARAMAN KI JAI!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

JAI JAI SHRI RADHEEEEEEEE SHYAM!!!!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

Written by LILA (Vrindavan) AKA -lili pili.....lili....bubby..vrinda ;-) lily of the pily variety, on the 29th January 2008, one week before she left this planet to return home, back to Godhead

 

gurukuli.com <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD vAlign=top align=right>0.66</TD><TD vAlign=top>LiLa (vrindavan)</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>17</TD><TD vAlign=top>LiLa (vrindavan) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

http://www.smh.com.au/multimedia/2008/world/anandalila-salter/index.html

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered”. Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973...

We are therefore presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) as baddha-jiva while our original 'svarupa' nitya-siddha bodily form is perpetually in Vaikuntha

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The above is pretty simple to read, it makes complete sense however, are you ready to understand these truths revealing our origins?

We certainly did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness where individual souls emanate from the inactive aspect of the Brahmajyoti, which is living and growing? Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea. It is incorrect because all souls are eternal beings without beginning or end

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha and have always been there however, a minority of living entities FROM VAIKUNTHA are 'consciously' (as baddha-jiva) caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation (mahat-tattva) that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

Our attendance in the material world is very real. And to each of us, IT IS NOT a dream state, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state while we are here, it is real, as real as being in Vaikuntha, however, we experience everything as temporary.

While in the material world, the 'awareness of our eternal relationship with Krishna is not seen or remember in our present state (nitya-baddha) of conditioned consciousness, (even though our full potential as jiva soul as nitya-siddha is perpetually in Goloka and is always there)

Therefore, it ONLY 'appears' that our eternal nitya siddha bodily identity does not exist, just like it 'appears' the sun does not exist, due to the cloud cover, or by the presents of night.

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered”. Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973...

We are therefore presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) as baddha-jiva while our original 'svarupa' nitya-siddha bodily form is perpetually in Vaikuntha

 

The above is 100% correct but it depends on personal realization if the above words are to make sense.

With all due respect to Balavidya dasa (ACBSP) Guruvani, Beggar, Shakti-Fan and possibly even Narayana Maharaja, it appears they cannot understand because they do not have the realization that all living entities who come to the material creation, ALL come down from Vaikuntha or Goloka (from the pastimes of Lord Krishna)

Although Narayana Maharaja once did say that in 'reality', in 'Goloka Vrndavana dhama', these things will be seen in another way".

Balavidya dasa with what I have read of his 'emotionally charged ideas' cannot understand what the 'eternal presents' means. Understanding that is where the secret is found to understand we ARE always with Krishna.

Many devotees understand this fact but do not get involved in this silly debate because they know that only by ones personal realizations and not words, can one truly understand we have all come from the eternal pastimes of Lord Krishna.

Actually we are still there with Krishna, but presently only 'think and imagine' we are not there.

Remember, only by personal realization through the mercy of Srila Prabhupada can this be realized

 

Lila fights for life in her paradise</HEADLINE>

 

 

 

• <BYLINE>Matt Wade Herald Correspondent in New Delhi and Paul Bibby</BYLINE>
  <DATE>February 4, 2008 - 8:13AM

 

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"I love India" ... Anandalila 'Lila' Salter, now on life support, spoke of her joy in India on her MySpace site.

 

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"We want every person in Australia, regardless of their religious beliefs, to please pray for her," Ms Manning said. "That's my heartfelt desire."

 

The time now, is for prayer and chanting of Hare Krishna and pray for her body to heal, or if need be, that she have no difficulty in leaving her body and going back home, back to Godhead

Srila Prabhupada: Simply we have to desire to please Him, and not desire anything for ourselves, then we become simply instruments for His will. This is the important esence of Krsna

 

Conclusion - It is ones 'personal' surrender that allows Krishna AND PRABHUPADA's mercy to work through them AND HELP's the devotee do PRABHUPADA'S and Krishna's work.

 

This is the example set when Prabhupada decided to do something by going to America in 1965, while his Godbrothers sat in their Temples satsfied with a few disciples and prasadam

 

We also have chooses that allows Prabhupada to work through us that depends on OUR level of surrender.

 

Yes this is the real essence that lays the foundation for one to become Krsna Conscious.

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A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.

A real devotee intelligently knows he is the most fallen due so many life's he/she has had in this material world, knowing that one has compromised his/hers spiritual PRINCIPLES on many many, many occasions over many births, committing just about every sinful act imaginable.

Even still, such a soul longs for the land of Vrndavana, knowing that to be his/hers real home, where one's perpetual 'svarupa' is eternally established beyond this material dream, that is made up of the envious, LUSTY and the MATERIALLY motivated

Originally Posted by Svarupa

Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport”".

From the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their perpetual 'svarupa body, or real identity in Goloka, always remains there eternally established in the endless 'present', even if they have chosen to enter the material creation of selfish imagination of divided time and space.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja: -

The root of all jivas, the cause of all jivas, is Baladeva Prabhu. In Vraja, the jivas have manifested from the original Baladeva. They have never come to this world. They have always served Radha and Krsna in madhurya-rasa or sakhya-rasa. From Baladeva comes Mula Sankarsana in Dvaraka. Asanka (innumerable) jivas come from Baladeva in His form as Mula Sankarsana, and they serve Dvarkadhisa and Mathuresa Krsna in so many ways. From Mula Sankarsana comes Maha Sankarsana in Vaikuntha. He manifests the mukta-jivas there, and they eternally serve Rama, Nrsmha, Kalki, Vamana, Narayana and all other svansa incarnations. From Maha Sankarsana comes Karanodakasayi Visnu in the tatastha region, and He manifests the tatastha-jivas. Among them, some become free from maya and some become baddha-jivas, conditioned souls. In this way, we see that all kinds of jivas have come from Baladeva.

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

Gaura Premanande

Shakti-Fan -

Prabhupada also tells like this in the scriptures, but obviously he has also given the way things are seen in Goloka Vrndavana dhama. So he gives both according to which one is applicable according to time, place and circumstance. If we just give one viewpoint then we must twist his words to make them fit everywhere

 

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Both viewpoints are right!!

I agree with that. Quite a few of these people realized very early on that they can live a very good life by positioning themselves on top of the Iskcon authoritarian power pyramid. They created a system of cronies and kliques, undetected by the naive and trusting rank and file devotees. To some extent this system continues even today. The authoritarian system Srila Prabhupada introduced in Iskcon was their best ally.

 

Devotees were indoctrinated to blindly trust and obey "authorities", and have faith that "Krsna is in control" (i.e. do not try to question what is happening around you). Devotees saw childern and adults abused in various way but because of this brainwashing they thought: "This is the way of full surrender".

 

All the power was placed in the hands of sannyasis, who were young, inexperienced, and completely unsuitable for that ashram. Toward the end Srila Prabhupada realized that giving such people sannyasa was a serious mistake, but there was no time for a real reform. The mold was set, and the disasters followed. To this very day real power is in the hands of the same group of people, and the mentality hardly changed a whole lot. The same slogan is still used to brainwash new people: "The system is perfect. Only your vision is wrong. Become perfect first before you criticize us."

 

Power corrupts. That is why you need a system of checks and balances when it comes to power. Thanks to the internet you can study what happened and who did what in Iskcon. The same people who failed in the past are in power today. Very little accountability. People who could not figure out that Kirtanananda was a total crook run Iskcon today and they are still clueless, or pretend to be so in order to stay in power.

Quote:Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>I do not think Bhavananda, Kirtanananda, Harikesha, Bhagavan, Ramesvara, Hunsaduttah, Tamal and even Jayatirtha 'planned' their attempts to have Empires and 'yes' servants, they were all dedicated sincere genuin disciples of Srila Prabhupada but NEVER realized what it meant to be a humble servant of the servant of Krishna.

Their external 'show' of advancement way out paced their internal level of Krishna Consciousness; therefore the facade and imitation could not last. It is something they never planned, it's just that their real internal level of Krishna Consciousness eventually came to light and revealed that they where not that advanced at all. It has to be real to have potency to last and change the world into Krishna Consciousness over the long term

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Judging oneself by the example of an associate of Caitanya Mahaprabhu is un-needed self torture.

You are not Lord Caitanya's associate. Try to serve Krsna by serving Vaishnavas and by helping in their preaching work.

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The backgound on where the 'origin of the jiva' debate began in Australia -

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -"You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971.

 

The above is the correct understanding of how we all came to the material world, this I have understood since 1972 when we travelled around Australia in a double decker bus with Mudhuvisa (then) Swami, Caru prabhu and many other devotee's.

 

 

Caru was with us only for part of the preaching mission to Towns and Villages around Australia however was there when the ‘origin of the jiva’ discussions began. Others on this first travelling preaching mission from Sydney to Cairns were

Balarama,

Chittahari,

Yasamatinandana,

Dvaipayana,

Ted Spencer (who the previous year was the world champion for surf board ridding),

Kuntiboja,

Srngi (now Muralidhar_das)

Krishna Prema

And my self and one or two I cannot remember, lived in the Brahmacari quarters which was the bottom deck of the bus (except for the bus drivers who had a private space upstairs), while the second deck (upstairs) was the Brahmatarini quarters were

Ambika,

Arti,

Kamarupa and

Sukla devi-dasi’s resided.

 

It was at 83 Hereford street Gleb Temple near the Sydney Uni in April 1972 we began our preaching mission up North. There were 14 of us on the double Decker Bus spreading the mission of Lord Caitanya for the first time on Australian soil. On the way we chanted on the streets of Newcastle and all Towns inbetwen there and Brisbane, such as Kemsey, Coffs Habour, Graften, Ballina, Lismore, Nimbin, Murwillumbaha where one day soon we would establish the farm New Goverdhana, the Gold Coast made up of Coolangattah, Burleigh heads, Surfers Paradise, Beenleigh then Brisbane. We chanted on the city streets of Brisbane and was on page two of the Couramail the next day. The head line was ' The Hare Krishna's have arrived with the chant of peace" Brisbane was also having their annual 'festive show' and we chanted at the front gates where tens of thousands of people watched us chanting and some recieving BTG.

 

It was on this bus trip a devotee suggested we came from the Brahmajyoti and started the ‘origin of the jiva’ controversy. That idea was quickly rejected in a letter from Prabhupada that was sent to all Temple Presidents in Australia. It was a hot topic back then in 1972 as well but Prabhupada was personally present to guide us

 

The Srimad Bhagavatam classes therefore delved deeply into the souls origin for months as we travelled around Australian. We new this was a very auspecious time and that the teachings of Srila Prabhupada we were hearing, is the revelation of long kept secrets and explanations that told us about the universe and it's creator Lord Krishna.

 

We just new we were very fortunate to be there hearing such wonders of creation. Some of us asked 'what did we deserve to hear the Srimad Bhagavatam, that Madhuvisa read from one of Prabhupadas original volumes he brought with him in 1965 to America'. Some speculated we were yogis, mystic's, devotee's and even demons from the Satya-yuga. Madhuvisa laughed and simply said 'It is by the causless mercy of Lord Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada that the seeds of Bhakti are sowed in your hearts.

 

In those days we would chant on the streets for 8 to 10 hours a day. One night at the show grounds we chanted to 10pm because there where so many people. We did this through all the Towns ond cities as we proceeded up north to Cairns. We went through all the Towns like Bunderburg, Mackay, Harvey Bay where we had big feast with hundreds of curious locals attented, (the Americans call them rednecks, we call them yobbo's). Gladstone, Rockhamptom, Airles beach, Townsville, where we where on the front page of the main paper, actually all papers in all Towns were doing articles on us that kept Chittahari prabhu very busy doing interviews and arranging interviews with Mudhavisa

 

At Karanda, just ouside of Cains, Madhuvisa lead a blissful kirtan through the hippie community and hundreds of them, most naked, joined in chanting Hare Krishna and dancing.

 

Devotees before this had never visited anywhere outside of Sydney or Melbourne. We were the pioneers at the very beginning of Lord Caitanya's very rare Goldern Age in Kali-yuga.

 

We celebrated Janmastam at a Buddhist colony not far from Karranda; we loaded as many hippies as we could in the double decker Hare Krishna bus, all chanting Hare Krishna and dancing 'on the bus' to the excellent blissful kirtans with Mudhuvisa leading. IT WAS VERY SPECIAL

 

The following day was Vysa-puj and Madhuvisa had lit a candle under Srila Prabhupada’s photo, the aura, bliss, love and security from that photo permeated the entire bus with an amazing mood of reverence and Krishna Consciousness. They were amazing days and there was a childish innocence about those days, In fact we thought Mudhuvisa was old (he was 24 and Balarama was 29). The rest of us where still teenagers. The present generation I don't think realize how young we were in those beginning years of ISKCON. There was also no hanky panky going on, everyone was very sincere, very dedicated and very attached to Prabhupada, I know I was.

 

In those early years we only ate offerings to the Dieties and absolutely nothing else (We had a beautiful photo of the Panca-tattva with a wonderful Photo of Prabhupada at their feet), no-one even dreamed of eating anything unprepared by devotees or even drink soft drinks in those blissful days.

 

Those years were extraordinary. Dwaip cooked up beautiful offerings to Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya and Nityananda while Citta, Balarama and myself were the Bus Drivers. Yaso and Kuntiboja were the inquisitive philosopher, well, actually we all were. Many times we discussed the origins of the jiva that lead to the famous “Crow-and-Tal-Fruit Logic” letter Srila Prabupada sent to his inquisitive Australian devotees.

 

You will find many devotee's in ISKCON will not discuss this subject because of that letter however, that was then. nearly 40 years ago. I am convience Srila Prabhupada never meant that we never discuss this subject. In fact he has said in other letters we should undertand this subject and that we were previously actively engaged in Krishna Lila in our original constitional position.

 

As far as I am concerned, we are all therefore still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka like a cloud covers the Sun. Many devotee's in ISKCON will not discuss this subject because of that letter however, that was then, nearly 40 years ago. I am convienced Srila Prabhupada never meant we never discuss this subject, in fact he has said in other letters and lectures we should undertand this subject and that we were previously actively engaged in Krishna Lila before coming to this material world.

 

"Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka like a cloud covers the Sun"

suchandra the Instructive story of Panchatantra, " love once betrayed cannot be regained", it's over, finished, done, gone, out", is nonsense, you are not intelligently looking at the bigger picture. You sound lIke a Christian who claims we burn in eternally in hell. That is a vengful angry nasty god where as through the teachings of Srimad Bhagavatam "love once betrayed CAN be regained!!" After all, we betrayed Krishna by choosing to come to the material world. Theist explains this fact

The exception to this would be our relationship to Krsna.

In the material world nothing is set, Karma is temporary so Love Once Betrayed Cannot Be Regained? is NOT always the case. Why? Because the concept of 'betrayal' is a material thing and memorary of it will eventually fade away with the passing of time and will be forgotten. Love will always be regained EVEN IN THIS LIFE or in the next life or maybe after many lifes of experiencing bad karma.

In other words, love that has been betrayed in a previous life and in this life can and will always be eventually regained in this material world and even again in this life if one is spiritual advance enough to hate the sin but not the sinner.

To spread the causless mercy of Lord Caitanya a devotee must think this way and achieve what many thought was impossible.

The lesson is that love once betrayed can be regained by recieving the mercy of Lord Caitanya again even after offending and betraying devotee's. So never write anyone off.

Beware of imitators, pretenders and parrot sterotypes in devotee garb.

A man or women is judged by the content of their Krishna Conscious character and NOT by whether they live in or outside a GAUDIYA MATH or ISKCON Temples, or by the cloths they wear and the Vedic knowledge and sloka's they repeat. One is judged by their selfless genuin Krishna conscious concern for others, devoid of imitating great saintly personalities as a weekend 'sadu's'. The geniun souls will tell EVERYONE they meet about Krishna 24/7

The following is an interesting article by Raga devi dasi (Alachua, Florida) Posted on Chakra on December 18, 2007

I couldn't agree more with the short article "Psychological Testing Needed for Temple Offices" featured the other day by Alice Ahola from Finland. Unfortunately for all of us, ISKCON has known much abuse -- and not of children alone; many adults have experienced it as well.

Due to overly intense managers who really abused their rank and power, or whose priorities were mostly on externals and "performance" and little else, many of us adults who have lived in temples are now very disappointed and "walking wounded" also. Others have simply dreaded surrendering ourselves fully to managerial discretion, knowing how harsh and biased it can sometimes be. Still, there's another side to all of this.

Understanding karma, its pervasiveness, its exactness and how it works, and living in a temple while chanting Hare Krishna may immensely expedite the burning off of our karma -- making very uncomfortable situations. We can meet our own dark sides or dark sides from prior lives in an abusive manager or right at the temple Krishna can arrange to balance an account or debt we had to someone else. This thought, I believe, was held by my brilliant guru-maharaja HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami.

I nevertheless think that Bhaktin Alice came up with an excellent suggestion. Some psychological testing should be done, and also some training, as is the system of varna-ashrama dharma anyway. All I'd like to add to this is that we should be sure to remember the basics. The material world is a struggle for existence and a place of envy. Temples are meant to be spiritual embassies but don't always accomplish this.

Managers have a lot of grief too; it's not all glamour and glory. I can't imagine the burdens some of them take on. Then, too, if we have a strong preaching spirit, sometimes we're literally being kicked away from a temple by Krishna Himself -- wanting to situate us in a place we can be of much more service and impact.

May Bhaktin Alice forgive my presumptions, but I hope she will consider these factors also. Just as important, we ought not to hide away in a Hare Krishna temple and then complain. Prabhupada's mission also needs outside, visible devotees who will take up his torch in the secular world.

Above all, let's not forget that before taking a guru and serving him or her, one's karmic fan is still plugged in and spinning at full force. Seeing things clearly as they are requires a full cleansing of our consciousness. This is still my aspiration after 22 years of chanting Hare Krishna: to read and chant more and to beware of finding fault unnecessarily.

By Raga devi dasi (Alachua, Florida)

Posted December 18, 2007

These are the facts that many of the above CANNOT address with their show of jnan, juggling of words, sloka’s and purports

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the ‘seen’ disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada clearly says here we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position. There are two states, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state (nitya-siddha) is perpetually with Krishna and the covered state (nitya-baddha) is with either with Maha-Vishnu in the impermanent mahat-tattva (material creation) or a dormant state of individual consciousness in the Impersonal feature of the Brahmajyoti, which is also temporary.

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There's your conclusion above by CCC

Interesting true points made by Svarupa that is further verified by Kurma

Jan 11, AUSTRALIA (SUN) — Whilst ISKCON has the good the bad and the ugly, it also has many not so famous devotees, first generation disciples of Srila Prabhupada who were not so ambitious to equate themselves as on the level of Srila Prabhupada

I believe this is a very important point, because whilst the society has so many devotees who have cheated, lied, and done so many abominable things, with so many to support and back up the cheating, there is still great hope and opportunity for us all.

Srila Prabhupada's real spiritual warriors and masters are perhaps to be found amongst his disciples who weren't so ambitious and greedy for positions and fame, and also amongst those who have redeemed themselves.

ISKCON still has so many beautiful and gifted first generation devotees who we can take so much guidance and shelter from.

You won't find these devotees on tour, or out there trying to further themselves for personal gratification, but they are there working tirelessly for Srila Prabhupada in some capacity or another.

Srila Prabhupada created so many devotees, let's not be fooled into thinking they were all so famous, and household names that have been embedded in our thinking by the bogus guru system.

May we seek out those great souls who really and truly understood the purport they were given by Srila Prabhupada, because they are the real maha-bhagavatas that will save us all!

Kurma

What you've posted is very informative, but isn't it from an offshoot of Judaism that is rarefied, esoteric and mystical, rather than what was referred to as "mainstream Judaism" in the other thread?

 

Yes, Origen was an early Christian church father who believed in reincarnation, but if I'm not mistaken, recanted on that belief...I'll check up on it.

 

Mainstream conservative Christians would rather sweep such historical aspects of faith under the rug.

You could all do what I did if this subject interests you, just humbly ask Jewish people down the local shopping centre and in the process tell them about Krishna. By the way all of them believe in reincarnation saying that as long as we have unfinished business and desires in this material world, then we must come back and take birth again.

I also found out that most detest 'so called' Christians and Muslims because of the many attempts of genocide against their faith over the last thousand years or so

Quote:Originally Posted NOT by gauragopala dasa!!

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No that is not correct. The three Vishnu's that the mahat-tattva of Maha-vishnu - Karanodakasiayi-vishnu, Garbodakasayi-vishnu and Ksirodakasiayi-vishnu (Paramatma), all are expansions of Many Hindu'sbelieve Krishna is the seventh incarnation of Vishnu, that is nonsense and incorrect as the Brahma Samhita tells us

When Krishna comes to the material world for sport to kill demons, he manifests as His Vishnu form with the bodily appearance of Krishna (there is no difference) while the original Krishna remains in Goloka Vrndavan and never leaves His pastimes.

 

 

 

 

 

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Hey matarisvan, I really don't know why you are on these threads speaking your nonsense, at least get your quote right! This is what Gauragopala dasa wrote

No that is not correct. The three Vishnu's that fascilitate the mahat-tattva of Maha-vishnu - Karanodakasiayi-vishnu, Garbodakasayi-vishnu and Ksirodakasiayi-vishnu (Paramatma), all are expansions of Krishna the original source and cause of all causes. Many 'Hindu's' believe Krishna is the eighth incarnation of Vishnu, that is nonsense and incorrect as the Brahma Samhita tells us

 

When Krishna comes to the material world for sport to kill demons, he manifests as His Vishnu form with the bodily appearance of Krishna (there is no difference) while the original Krishna remains in Goloka Vrndavan and never leaves His pastimes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tompkins </ST1:P<ST1:PSquare </ST1:P<ST1:PPark NY City, Srila Prabhupada leading the chanting of Hare Krishna</ST1:P

 

 

An interesting ISKCON pastime I heard recently in Vrndavana about a hippie in 1966 that used to travel around in Ken Kesey’s psychodelic bus dance group, travelling around America handing out Kool-Aid drink laced with LSD. Somehow one of Srila Prabhupada’s original Srimad Bhagavatam’s was in a small library section on the bus and read by such future devotee’s like Mohanananda dasa. One young hippie on that bus however, was not satisfied in just reading the book; he was determined to find the author of this wonderful Srimad Bhagavatam and was prepared to travel all around <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place w:st=" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region> until he found this amazing Sadhu. When they reached <st1:State w:st="on">New York</st1:State>, Kesey and the Pranksters visited Leary in <st1:City w:st="on">Millbrook</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">NY</st1:State>, at his psychedelic retreat called "The International Federation for Internal Freedom.", it was founded when Leary was fired from <st1:place w:st="on"><ST1:PHarvard </ST1:PUniversity</ST1:Place </st1:place>for doing research with his students on the hallucinogenic drugs LSD-25 and Psilocybin. This young hippie had had enough of LSD and realized God can NEVER be found in a pill and decided to go on a spiritual quest to India in search of the ‘swami’ who wrote the Srimad Bhagavatam.

He then decided to leave the merry pranksters and leave for <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>; he bought a ticket and was on his way to the Kennedy airport. On the way however, he had sometime to spare and went by <st1:place w:st="on"><ST1:PTompkins </ST1:P<ST1:PSquare </ST1:P<ST1:PPark </ST1:P</st1:place>to see what the acid head hippies were up to. As he went by in the taxi he saw this big crowd and all the hippies dancing, he was curious and told the taxi driver to stop, then went over, investigated, and found an elderly sadu . He watched with some curiosity and wondered if the Sadhu he would eventually find in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>, who wrote the Srimad Bhagavatam, would be like this Sadhu. Anyway the kirtan stopped and this Sadu began reading from the same book he was reading on ken Kesey’s Bus.

 

Now this young hippie just was even more determined to seek out the writer of the Srimad Bhagavatam seeing this Sadu also reading it. Eventually the reading stopped and this young hippie went over to the Sadhu and said ‘I am also reading this book and I am now just on my way to the airport to fly out to <st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region>, I am determined to look all over <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region></st1:place> for this Sadhu’. The elderly gentlemen Sadhu chuckled to himself and said to the young hippie ‘I am the translator of this book the beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam, you do not have to go to <st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region>, I am here in <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New York</st1:place></st1:State>” The young hippie was ecstatic and had tears in his eyes. Then Srila Prabhupada, the elderly sadu said ‘Just see, if you are completely sincere and genuine, then you do not have to find Guru, he will find you”

Hare Krishna All glorious to Srila Prabhupada!

When you think about it, Srila Prabhupada came to the West because there was a deep longing among the 50s and 60s LOST youth for answers to what in the hell is going on within the material world. Why are we here? Where did we come from? where are we going? I Know I had that desire to find the answers. One evening while listening to George Harrison singing 'My Sweet Lord', I happened to watch Srila Prabhupada arriving at an airport surrounded by loving devotees on TV, I new at that moment that this holy man is my Spiritual Master. The fact is he came to the West because we all were desperately seeking the truth.

Excellent thread!!

If one can understand that the bodily vessel they possess in the mahat-tattva is not them and that their real eternal bodily identity is in Goloka, then one can be free from, not only the material bodily identity, but it’s karma as well.

 

Krishna Conscious knowledge and Bhakti will burn up all of one's good and bad karma that ties one trapped within the mahat-tattva.

 

Therefore if one can realize that the “I” (nitya-baddha consciousness) possessing the biological body and mind, as well as the biological bodies underlining ethereal container, is not ones real authentic identity, then attachment to the good and bad karmic reactions of all bodily vessels is severed.

 

Ones spiritual eyes begin to open to the fact that what they thought was them, is really their 'dreaming' nitya baddha consciousness.

 

Therefore due to forgettfulness of their nitya-siddha body (ones real eternal self), they have been restricted to their nitya-baddha inferior dreaming consciousness due to ones selfish non Krishna conscious dreams and thoughts.

 

Such non Krishna Conscious dreams and thoughts erase any memory of their higher bodily ‘svarupa’ self and any memory of their perpetual loving relationship with Krishna or God

 

If one can also understand that one’s non Krishna conscious thoughts and dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) are bodiless until they are given bodily form from the stockpile of bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva creation, then one can realize that the biological body and mind, a desire of the nitya-baddha consciousness, is not who one really is.

 

Such vessels are created by the graphic’s designer Maha-Vishnu that one is provided with that suits their material chooses and desires. Such bodies are always the property of the mahat-tattva and are like the decorations of a room that are part and parcel of that room. Similarly, the biological and ethereal containers ARE the mahat-tattva, just like the decorations are the room.

 

This means every dream and thought can only be given real active form (even though temporary) by Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva creation (the material creation).

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> A mundane example of how this works is, if a young boy plays a video game, the programming, graphics and each possible pathway in that game that the ‘player’ may choose, is already programmed into that game. The player of that game can choose which character he wants to play and therefore can control the destiny of the character within the boundaries of that game he desires to play that has already been created by the graphics designer – we have all played video games, I think you get the drift of what I’m saying. The game has already been created by its designer; we just enter that game and then play it the way we choose. This is how the entire mahat-tattva creation works, created by its ‘graphics’ designer Maha-Vishnu

The material bodies we presently occupy and ride around in are the belongings of Maha-Vishnu that we charter off him to pursue our selfish desires of material grander. Each material vessel of subtle and ethereal material components, are always the property of their proprietor, Maha-Vishnu, who provides such 'MATERIAL' vessels to correspond with the material desires and dreams of the souls who have chosen to come down from Goloka to experience their mistaken selfish desires as a passenger in one of Maha-Vishnu's bodily containers or vessel</td></tr></tbody></table>

Being under karmic law means we are being held responsible for the deeds done to satisfy our material desires. If every little thing is predestined then why do we have different karma's?

What is predestined is our prarabdha-karma. That covers the body type parents social staus education wealth general health etc. Prarabdha karma is based on our past deeds and drawn from our stockpile of karma (sanchit) for this particular birth.

So our free will is extremely limited but it exists. It is woven throughout the predestined episodes of our life in a way that is basically impossible to see, at least for me. We are so strongly influenced by matter that it appears to be nonexistent.

Actions done outside the strict confines of our prarabdha-karma within this life are called kriyamanas. We can change direction. Supersoul takes our desires into consideration and allows for moving back towards Him or farther away.

We are tiny souls and controlled by design. Even in the spiritual world we are controlled by the spiritual energy. Free will is what it means to be marginal energy. However we are so minute it can appear we have no free will at all and are just at the mercy of circumstance.

The following is all that is important and the final conclusion that ghari has nicely explained should be accepted by sarva-gattah, Svarupa, a few others as well as myself as bonafide conclusion from the view point of sadhu, shastra and Guru

Srila Prabhupada - "One should not uselessly labor in mental speculation to estimate the Lord's qualities. There is no need of adopting the speculative method or exercising the body to attain mystic yoga perfection. One should simply understand that the distress and happiness of this body are predestined; there is no need to try to avoid the distress of this bodily existence or to attempt to achieve happiness by different types of exercises. The best course is to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead with body, mind and words and always be engaged in His service.

Chapter of Krsna, "Prayers Offered by Lord Brahma to Lord Krsna."

Thus ends the discussion on this thread