CCC

where are the original tapes? <table border="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td height="208" width="28%"><table border="8" cellpadding="3"><tbody><tr><td></td> </tr></tbody></table> </td> <td height="208" valign="top" width="72%"> Sulocana Das, Dec. 12, 1985 Dear Vaisnavas and aspiring Vaisnavas: Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to the pure devotee who gave all of us the seed of Krsna consciousness, Srila Prabhupada. For those of you who have expressed difficulty reading my heavy-handed writing style, I would like to quote from a letter Prabhupada wrote to Karandhara if that may help: </td></tr></tbody></table> <hr noshade="noshade" size="1"> "No compromise-Rama Krishna, Avatars, yogis, everyone was enemy to Guru Maharaja-he never compromised. Some Godbrothers complained that his was chopping technique and it would not be successful. But we have seen that those who criticized, they fell down. For my part, I have taken up the policy of my Guru Maharaja-no compromise. All these so-called scholars, scientists, philosophers, who do not accept Krsna (or Prabhupada) are nothing more than rascals, fools, lowest of mankind, etc. So you go on with your work, it is very encouraging to me." (7/27/73) <hr noshade="noshade" size="1"> Today I was presented with a book put out by Dheera Krsna entitled, The Guardian of Devotion. I took this as a response to our challenges even though he hardly touched upon any of the serious points we had brought up. Dheera didn't touch upon our point that Sridhar Maharaja preaches an impersonal origin of the soul, which we proved by extensively quoting from both Sridhar Maharaja's book Search for Krishna and Prabhupada's books. We have no choice but to assume that Dheera has nothing to say. Having no answer means he has lost the debate. I beg to remind Dheera and his followers that I wrote only Part One of four parts, to the Sridhara Maharaja chapter of my book, The Guru Business. (Available $10.) 1 did not touch upon the bad advice he gave ISKCON's GBC when they approached him in 1978 for approval to play guru. Two famous quotes by Sridhar Maharaja at that time were: "It will be to deceive the disciple (telling them you're a pure devotee)" or, "There is no big mantra or little mantra for guru. Guru is one. (So go ahead and pose as uttamas.)" A few years later when that bogus advice exploded in a series of falldowns, violence and dissension, Sridhara Maharaja said to Dheera, "They will dig their own graves (and bury Prabhupada along with them.)" Then he summed it all up very clearly by saying to Yashomatinandan, "I am a form breaker," and, "I don't agree with Swami Maharaja (Prabhupada) in everything." The effect of Sridhar Maharaja's bad advice on ISKCON did not surprise us since Prabhupada had already warned: "They (specifically Sridhara Maharaja) cannot help us in our movement but they are very competent to harm our natural progress." (Letter to Rupanuga.) As such, the fact that Dheera could not answer the section on the impersonal tendency leaves little doubt in our minds that he will not be able to respond to these heavy charges, i.e., that Sridhara Maharaja unduly interfered with the divine mission of Srila Prabhupada. Personally, because I have full faith in Srila Prabhupada, I never had to read further than the one quote written to Rupanuga wherein Prabhupada said, "Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja." Dheera simply refuses to address this and other serious statements made by Prabhupada. No one is denying that at one tune Sridhar Maharaja was sincere, advanced, friends with Prabhupada, etc., and that Prabhupada liked him and even confided in him, but when an offense is committed to a pure devotee, or his mission (the Gaudiya Math) which is non-different, one loses all importance in Krsna consciousness and immediately fails down to mundane mental speculation. (Narayana Maharaja said, "Don't you know this man (Sridhara Maharaja) is a breaker of institutions?") As far as "high realizations" go, I'm sure Jayatirtha also has some very high realizations which make him and his followers "faint" all the time. And Srila Prabhupada said about Jayatirtha just before leaving this world, "You are my only tirtha (shelter)." We are not interested in those kinds of "high realizations." We are interested in solid, direct, and concise rebuttals to our philosophical points. Words spoken by Prabhupada in the mood of flattery, encouragement, Vaisnava etiquette, respect for seniors, humility, gratitude, friendship, etc., are not valid arguments to counter all of the negative statements Prabhupada made about Sridhar Maharaja just before leaving this world. Flattering and encouraging speech was always used by Prabhupada even when talking to the most disgusting human beings imaginable, so what to speak of what Prabhupada was capable of saying to a senior Godbrother, and in that Godbrother's presence. The words Prabhupada spoke about Sridhara Maharaja to his disciples when Sridhara was not there is the actual fact. And even then, Prabhupada was very cautious. If Prabhupada put in writing that Sridhar Maharaja is responsible for disobeying an order of his guru, that's it. Case closed. If Dheera wants to defend Sridhar Maharaja, then he has to confront these points, and not simply invoke the sentiments of those with no knowledge of Prabhupada's style of encouragement, his tactfulness, and humility and compassion. All these factors have to be taken into consideration when analyzing something Prabhupada says about an individual. To say that Prabhupada was whimsical when he wrote the letter to Rupanuga is very offensive. Prabhupada always was very careful about what went into writing. So if Dheera still wants to defend Sridhar Maharaja on the basis of flattering statements, then first he has to explain why Sridhar Maharaja says the jiva soul originates in the Brahmajyoti, whereas Prabhupada says the jiva's original home is with Krsna. Why did Prabhupada write to Visvakarma in August of 1975, "I have now issued orders that All of my disciples should avoid all of my Godbrothers." And why did Prabhupada tell Gargamuni right after Sridhar Maharaja left the room once, "He is simply envious." These are solid facts that we require solid rebuttals to if Dheera wants to be a preacher and try and establish Sridhar Maharaja as being equal to Prabhupada. Actually, even though he denies it, Dheera and his clan are trying to establish Sridhar Maharaja as superior to Prabhupada. His statements clearly reveal this fact. For this reason it is extremely dangerous to read or even cite the words of Dheera or Akshayananda just as it is suicidal to read the Lilamrta, which was designed by ISKCON's bogus gurus to minimize Srila Prabhupada, "To make Prabhupada more acceptable to the general public" was their excuse. At the present moment, the battle to remove the bogus gurus in ISKCON has reached a point where I have no time to finish the chapter on Sridhara Maharaja. I know many of you are anxious to start circulating the full expose since it is so painful to see our beloved spiritual master being minimized and shoved into the background like this but the priority at this time is exposing the ISKCON "gurus". I have every intention of finishing the chapter on Sridhara Maharaja at first opportunity. The source material for that chapter is so voluminous that it will take a solid week to sort through and compile. Until then, it is my humble request that if any of you still have doubts as to the real situation with Sridhara Maharaja, then please just put yourself on hold for a few more months. Very soon, maybe even within weeks, the ISKCON "gurus" will be fully exposed and removed from power. Once this offensive situation is gone, everyone will be able to breathe again and we can begin to rebuild ISKCON. At that time, if there is still a threat coming from the Sridhara Maharaja camp, we will compile the fun story. The situation between myself and Keith Ham-asura (Kirtanananda) has reached the point where any day now it can ignite into a full-scale media battle which will bring the entire ISKCON situation into the public eye (enclosed is the latest front-page article). We consider the Sridhara Maharaja issue to be insignificant when compared to the preaching that must be done at this time to re-establish ISKCON as the pure society Srila Prabhupada wanted it to be. It is not our intention to allow ISKCON to dissolve into another tiny, obscure, dead body, like the Gaudiya Math, just because the "form breaker" prefers it that way. He successfully destroyed the institution of his Guru Maharaja but we will not allow him to destroy our mission as well. The only tool left to save ISKCON form the hands of these form breakers and imitationists is the media which is why I am giving full attention to them now. Enclosed is my introduction to reporters and a concise explanation as to what has happened in ISKCON since the departure of Srila Prabhupada. It is only a matter of time before the story breaks wide open. With the violent threats Ramesvara is throwing around these days, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't ignite the media fire that will purge ISKCON once and for all. Another point specifically to those who use the bait and switch tactic of luring devotees into your camps under the pretense of being sincere to Prabhupada; both the ISKCON "gurus" and the Sridhara Maharaja "gurus" are doing this. It is illegal, demoniac and a crime that I have every intention to putting a swift halt to. I tell the same thing to Dheera's cult that I tell Keith Ham-asura's cult. That is: I don't care if you want to preach some bogus philosophy but if you continue to use the name of Prabhupada and Krishna as bait, then you're going to be stopped. It's not all right. It's not all one. I don't care if you continue to use Sridhara Maharaja as bait to prop yourself up as a "guru", any more than I care if you use Rajneesh, but if you continue to use Prabhupada's legacy and name as bait, then you will be stopped for that is illegal. If you don't present a response to all of the challenges we have made then you have to remove au of Prabhupada's pictures from your temples and stop making this asinine claim that Sridhara Maharaja is equal to Prabhupada. That is simply not a fact. We have proven that in only Part One of our expose on Sridhara Maharaja. Your silence is your defeat. Stop using Prabhupada as bait! This is not a request, but an order. You are defeated in debate and that means you have to surrender. Otherwise, you will pay dearly for each and every person you lure away from Prabhupada. And don't try to juggle your way out of this or try to impress us with a discourse on Brahma Gayatri either. We are only interested to hear a discourse from you on why Prabhupada said, "Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja," and that's all. Until you can answer this very simple and obvious question, don't pretend to be a scholar. So I'm saying, either present a full rebuttal to our challenge, surrender to the above demands, or expect a severe reaction. As you may have gathered by the way in which I'm dealing with ISKCON, I'm serious. When they're gone, you're next. If anyone reading this would like to offer some tangible help in the service of Srila Prabhupada's mission then there are many different services available at this time. For instance, while Dheera is busy writing books by and about Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada's thousands of lectures are just sitting here waiting for someone to come along to index. Until then, we have no access to all that pure knowledge, pure humor, and pure Prabhupada contained therein. Researching Vedic texts, such as Chanakya Pandit book Artha Sastra, or books on the vamasrama social structure in general, is also crucial if Krsna consciousness is to be established in the world. So rather than waste time with an "ease lover's" philosophy, we humbly request serious devotees to come forward to help establish the mission so kindly started by our real father, Srila Prabhupada. He gave us all we need to know about Radha-Krishna and the Gopis. The followers of Srila Prabhupada don't need Sridhar Maharaja's "high realizations" on that subject (as though they were higher than Prabhupada's). He said, "Work now, samadhi later." So there is much solid and practical work to be done right now. Prabhupada left the "down to earth" work for us. That's all we are competent for-and not imitating real saints like Prabhupada. We hope there are enough practical and solid devotees around to take some of the credit for all this real work that needs to be done. Thank you. As a final point, we are not claiming to be saints. We have all kinds of problems dealing with the material energy that seem insurmountable. We are not pretending to be always absorbed in the love of the gopis like the Sridhara Maharaja club. Nor are we pretending to be scholars or brahmins like the smarta club of Subhananda, Ravindra Svarupa, and those who talk a lot but still get their bread and butter by handouts from demons. Nor are we members of "the end justifies the means" ISKCON "gurubhava" club that sits on thrones between semen breaks, drug deals, nervous breakdowns, wife stealings, child molestations, etc., etc. It is not necessary to join any of these clubs to understand Srila Prabhupada's books. He wrote his books for people just like us: simple but honest. In fact, it is only honest people who can understand Prabhupada's books. That's because honesty is the only leg left in this age and we are proud to be tightly hanging on that one leg. So for those of you who don't like this simple, direct, often crude, often angry, but at least honest way of speech, then why don't you come forward and do something better to remove these demons who have ravaged Prabhupada's movement? Dheera says guru is one, and Keith Ham-asura says we are trying to crucify Prabhupada. Both these statements are in essence the exact same thing: trying to place yourselves equal to Prabhupada, and that is an offense no real disciple of Prabhupada will tolerate, for long. Your servant in the exclusive service of Srila Prabhupada: Sulocana dasa, Dec. 12, 1985

Dear readers of this Letter. Pamho agt Srila Prabhupada. There is one very interesting point regarding the letter from Srila Prabhupada to Rupanuga from 28th April 1974 in relationship to Sridhara Maharaja. Srila Prabhupada: "You are right about Sridhar Maharaj's genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, at least he executes the regulative principles of devotional service". I must say this statement of Srila Prabhupada really confused me for many years. He seemed to be making the point that Sridhar Maharaj was genuine and that he's the best of the lot and yet in the next breath he seems to be speaking sarcastically by saying "at least he executes the regulative principles of devotional service". This seeming contradiction lodged within my mind, and did not surface until many years later at a time when I was visiting Alachua with Jitarati and my wife Lokadrsti. Jitarati wanted to meet with Rupanuga so I took the opportunity to accompany him. During our discussions with him "this seeming contradiction" that had been stored up for many years in my mind resurfaced. So I took the opportunity and asked Rupanuga to kindly clear up my confusion. Rupanuga said that In early 1974 he visited the Asrama of Sridhar Maharaj. He spent some time there and his realizations were very clear and strong about what was going on there. He stated that Sridhar Maharaja was trying to attract devotees away from Srila Prabhupada and Iskcon and over to himself. After crossing the Ganges and returning to the Iskcon Mayapura centre this fact was transmitted to Srila Prabhupada by mail. Now for me the mystery was unraveled. Without insight into what Rupanuga had personally observed at Sridhar Maharaj's asrama and without knowing what he had conveyed to Srila Prabhupada by mail one would be excused thinking that when Srila Prabhupada said in his response to RUPANUGA "You are right about Sridhara Maharaj's genuineness" that he meant that Sridhara Maharaja was genuine. This of course is not the case. Rupanuga had made it clear to Srila Prabhupada that Sridhara Mahararaj was going against vaisnava etiquete and he was not acting as a genuine well wisher of Srila Prabhupada or Iskcon. Thus one can understand that when Prabhupada said "you are right about Sridhar Maharaja's genuineness" he was referring to the lack of it. "Srila Prabhupada said "He's genuine and the best of the lot" (many ex Iskcon Sridhar followers would say) This very unfortunate misunderstanding is one of the main reasons so many Iskcon devotees went over to Sridhara Maharaj's camp. Your servant Kamsahanta dasa"

is that the conclusion of iskcon devotees? well I don't know, there was a time when I was looking for a "living guru", I met Paramadvaiti swami, Srila Atulananda, Jayapataka, hanumat prasak swami, I read some books of Narayan Maharaj, and so on. there was a time when devotees used to say me, when you will get initiation? and I used to reply them not now I am looking for a guru is not a cheap thing.... Until I understood that is not necessary a living guru, so I take shelter in Srila Prabhupada!. Now I am going to a temple of paramadvaiti I know them since 5 years ago, I go just to chant Hare Krsna because the chant of the holy name is trascendental, Krsna is first. in another city there is an iskcon temple and isev (paramadvaiti) and I go to both temple just to chant the holy name and talk with some devotees. When I was living in that city I used to meet them together when we met in the street chanting the holy name, in that moment they forget their difference... Hari Bol

It is said tht a devotee can talk with Srila Prabhupada, recently I post a conversation with Him (Srila Prabhupada conversation 2002). and about second comming of Jesus I know that He will come but to judge Hari Bol

This is one of the best questions. well I don't want to give you a reply but soemtimes I have the same question in my mind. because I am not omniscient and I can't read the minds of others or see their auras, I cant say you that Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers are pure vaishnavas or not, at least I know that Srila Prabhupada is very dear to Sri Krsna and for me Srila Prabhupada was an avatar and saved my life. For me Srila Prabhupada is like Jesus, He teach us with his example and was a devotee from children. Also was authorized by his guru to be acarya in a dream, and so on. He was really blessed by the Lord and his Guru, therefore I try to follow Him and read his books. Also I have had many mystical experience just reading his books and hearing his kirtans well about Prabhupada's god brothers, I respect them, but I don't worship them simply beecause I don't read their books or know them, no one can force you to do that. It took me years to realize that Srila Prabhupada was a bonafide guru and instead of following someone else I just follow him... I found my guru. Also Srila Prabhupad said that no one of his godbrothers were qualified to be an acarya, so I will not take the risk.

In my opinion I dont care about the "tales or fairytales" of the bhagvatam, because Krsna is unlimited and all is possible in Him. so every tale or fairytale exist in some part of the infinite creation and was a or will be facts.

Amoghalila Prabhu had some converstaions with Srila Prabhupada last year. Prabhupada suggested ISKCON Temple Presidents should take matters into their own hands in regards to the guru issue as the GBC is now no longer able to hear him. He also says the ritviks are 90% right. These are amazing conversations. Amoghalila dasa (04-17-03) http://guru.krishna.org/Articles/2003/03/031.html

ah well thanks I guess that you have said beaners to the mexican or southamerican people, but now I understand that you are not using racist terms, just talking nonsense

where are the original tapes?

I have some doubts of this, for me is just propaganda Also I heard that some of those tapes doesnt exist, especially the tape just before Srila prabhupada's departure when "He says if you have a question about philosophy go to Sridhar Maharaj"(?¿) Also a gbc said that Prabhupada never says such things before his departure. Be aware that I am not pro iskcon or pro gaudiya math, I just read prabhupada's books letters conversation an so on and chant some rounds Hari Bol

the second post was like this (I was looking for it for translating) with quotes of Srila Prabhupada and the others acaryas about the fall donw of the soul. I would like that the moderator say something about why were deleted both posts 760805BG.PAR Lectures: Translator: "The question is: did we fall in this material world to find some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world to experience something which is higher? Prabhupada: I do not follow. Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why should we have left? Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... JUST LIKE SOMEBODY IS DAILY EATING PURIS AND HALAVA, AND HE WANTS TO EAT PUFFED RICE. SO THAT TENDENCY IS THERE. THAT IS ALSO A SIDE OF ENJOYMENT. "I am eating daily this, let me eat this." What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So different taste we desire, that "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's all." from Bhagavad Gita Introduction: "The Lord says, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. One who can approach that spiritual sky is not required to descend again to the material sky. In the material sky, even if we approach the highest planet (Brahmaloka), what to speak of the moon, we will find the same conditions of life, namely birth, death, disease and old age. No planet in the material universe is free from these four principles of material existence. Therefore the Lord says in Bhagavad-gita, abrahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino 'rjuna. The living entities are traveling from one planet to another, not by a mechanical arrangement but by a spiritual process." "One should desire and hanker after that supreme kingdom, for when one attains that kingdom, he does not have to return to this material world." "These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds, they are taking various grades of bodies". - Letter, July 9, 1970. "... if he is properly guided, then he is very easily sent back to home, back to Godhead wherefrom originally he fell down." - Letter, January 20, 1971 "... we have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago. Anadi karama-phale. Anadi means before the creation... The real desire is how to go to home, back to Godhead." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita, London, August 6, 1973 "... we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment... so even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that 'Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?' I immediately fall down." - Lecture in Honolulu, July 4, 1974 "He is fallen already from Vaikuntha planet. He is fallen in this material world, and he is again trying to make progress." - Bhagavatam lecture in Los Angeles, June 15, 1972. "As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly, we were with Krsna in His lila or sport, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration. . . "... Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma-sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna". - Australian conversation transcribed in BBT Report Nectar of the Month, January, 1982. DISCIPLE: If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here? PRABHUPADA: Yes. You forced Krsna to allow you to come... This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy. - Bhagavad-gita lecture in Melbourne, June 27, 1974 "Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition". - Letter, June 13, 1970. "When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord's service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world". - Introduction to Srimad Bhagavatam (5.14) "He should be restored to his pure identity, in which he engages his senses in the service of the proprietor of the senses." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.24.61. "Therefore, the whole process of God consciousness is meant to rectify the conditional activities of the senses and to re-engage them in the direct service of the Lord". -Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.9.39. Acyutananda: So what made the soul take birth in the first place? Prabhupada: In the first place? Acyutananda: What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth. Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Prema-vivarta: krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare/nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare. As soon as... We are eternal servant of Krsna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Because, Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krsna—so Krsna has got full independence, but we are minute; therefore we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krsna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth. (Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2--Hyderabad, April 11, 1975) However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha... material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas. - Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura, Prema-pradipa, p. 83 It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul... gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God...he begins to get back his pure essential nature... - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323. ACTUALLY WE ARE ETERNAL FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE LORD, BUT DUE TO OUR MISUSE OF INDEPENDENCE WE HAVE NOW FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH KRISHNA, EXACTLY LIKE A MAN WHO IS MAD FORGETS HIS FAMILY RELATIONSHIP AND LOITERS IN THE STREET.69-06-07. Letter: Uttamasloka THE FIRST BEGINNING BODY IS BRAHMA, VERY EXALTED BODY. BUT ON ACCOUNT OF OUR ABOMINABLE ACTIVITIES, FROM BRAHMA, WE COME DOWN TO BECOME THE WORM OF STOOL..740606BG.GEN Lectures Bg Introduction But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease. Mahesh dasa (02-07-07) 91-05-14 Letter to: Unknown Unknown Place Unknown Date Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed. So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position. So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. BECAUSE HE FALLS DOWN FROM BRAHMASAYUJYA, HE THINKS THAT MAY BE HIS ORIGIN, BUT HE DOES NOT REMEMBER THAT BEFORE THAT EVEN HE WAS WITH KRSNA. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease. On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin. Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative. Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic. 760708ed.wdc Conversations Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, THEREFORE WE MAY FALL DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA AT ANY MOMENT. ICCHA-DVESA SAMUTTHENA SARGE YANTI PARANTAPA. FIND OUT THIS VERSE. Pusta Krsna: iccha-dvesa samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa "O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate." Prabhupada: Purport. Pusta Krsna: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krsna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking. Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect us from that desire? Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this . Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that? Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence. Vipina: And no love. Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? (laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape?

these post were deleted Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles AS IT IS Hare Krsna, the letter is divided in two parts with two question: First Question: "Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down." No comment and has no interpretation is very clear Srila Prabhupada. You accept the words of the self effulgent acharya or not, easy. "Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions." Pay very attention to the question Jagadisa is asking if the conditioned soul has ever seen Krsna, the conditioned soul!! not the liberated soul!!! (is obvious that the liberated soul has seen and see Krsna). So Srila Prabhupada replied Him yes. Just before the conditioned soul get conditioned we have seen Krsna in his Mahavishnu form and He injected us in the mahat tattva as a father inject the soul in the womb of the mother also this mean that the conditioned soul has the chance to see Mahavishnu when He enter Him after the aniquilation of the universe and enter in the susupti state. so when we are in our original liberated state we can see Lord Krsna face to face and we are in his lilas (First question above), and when we are conditioned we can see Lord Krsna as Mahavishnu (NOT in Krsnaloka or vaikhunta) before entering and after leaving the destroyed universes in his maha vishnu form otherwise we can't see lord Krsna (In Goloka or Vaikhunta) in the conditioned state only if He descends but this is not the line of the question.

Suchandra, what is the context of that quote?, could you explain me please?

Where Can I get IT?

Guruvani What do you mean with beaners?

Today I was looking for a few post of mine and were deleted "I would like to translate it in spanish, and now are vanished (A long list of quotes of Srila Prabhupada" this is very sad and annoying really I am very disgusted and I will left this forum because if I post something and then is deleted is useless only a waste of time for me that I have to make and effort to write in english Hare Krsna

For me this an insult to all vaishnavas who are following the teachings and instructions of Srila Prabhupada and is saying that we are worst than mayavadas. Why Srila Prabhupada wrotes thousands of letters to his disciples and why his conversation were recorded? Because all words of the spiritual master are trascendental, If Srila Prabhupada wanted he could have called to their disciples by phone, would be fast and easy. But he was wise, and he knew that his letters and conversation would be a source of knowledge. So for me the words of Srila Prabhupada are not different, letters, conversations, books, are not different. Srila Prabhupada says in his letters conversation and books that we have forgotten the Lord and his service, We were with him in his lilas, we were serving Him, . Srila Bhaktisiddhanta says the same and Bhaktivinoda thakur the same. So I have become more than my guru and the whole parampara?

Hare Krsna Reading your post you are saying that we come from the heart of Krsna. well, all come from Krsna, even matter, also matter is conscious, there are pastimes when great devotees chant the holy name and the matter is smelted, also you can incarnate as a planet, the planets are living entities like us, Our planet is called mother earth, bhumi, or pachamama by the southamerican cultures and is mother because is female, also the sun has a soul, and that soul is the sun deity or Vivasvan and from him comes the sun's brahmajyoti. So it is a fact that all come from Krsna. So if we have an origin or manifestation from the body of Krsna, we are persons, like father mother and son, if our father and mother Radha-Krsna have a personality and form, we have personality and form like our father and mother. So the soul is not impersonal at all and the soul can't be originated in the brahmajyoti far away from the body of the Lord. Once I read that when Radha and Krsna "meet" infinite jivas are manifested. and also you have quoted: so that mean that we as jiva in our origin are not a formless atom - at least a tiny ball of light floating in the brahmajyoti, this is brahmasayujya who is like suicide for the devotee and is attained by impersonalist from this material world-. The spiritual body is inherent to the soul, is like the fire, fire has light and heat, similarly the living entity has a soul and spiritual body wich are inseparable and non different in nature. at this moment our spiritual body is covered by the differents material layers. So, if the soul has an origin that mean that there was a time when he was not serving the Lord (not yet) "due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION" and remain in santa rasa. Also Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur said: and Bhaktivinoda Thakur: Above Srila Bhaktissidhanta Sarasvati Thakur is saying that we were with Krsna in his sports and also said in another book that we had a relationship with the Lord in santa rasa. For me this is not contradictory because if the soul has an origin that mean that he is not experienced in serving the Lord, but that attitud is almost in a dorman state like a child, therefore the souls that fall down to this world maybe are not very attached to the Lord or are not close and intimate asociates of the Lord "due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION" simply because they are new souls without experience and also in the spiritual world there are different levels of surrender. I will continue tomorrow is too late and I am tired... I have a question where it is said that santa rasa mean being floating in the brahmajyoti?

Letter of Srila Prabhupada about vedic cosmology "These things are not very important, we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations [in the Bhagavatam]. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct? So we are concerned with Krsna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam." (Letter 72-11-07)

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." That mean that there is a posibility to fall down from the spiritual planets, is not an obligation because you are not entagled by your karma so you don't have to return, but if you want to descend from the spiritual world to the material world again, you can come. But when the souls comes to this plane they realize that this material world is hard and almost invariably don't come again to enjoy without Krsna, and if they come again is for preaching or to assist the Lord in other pastimes. "Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back. Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, 'Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,' I'll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I'll never become." Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967) "

No, stop twisting the purports of Srila Prabhupada, when Srila Prabhupada talks about spiritual sky and material sky he is refering to the spiritual and material dimensions as a whole From Bhagavad Gita Introduction: "The Lord says, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. One who can approach that spiritual sky is not required to descend again to the material sky. In the material sky, even if we approach the highest planet (Brahmaloka), what to speak of the moon, we will find the same conditions of life, namely birth, death, disease and old age. No planet in the material universe is free from these four principles of material existence. Therefore the Lord says in Bhagavad-gita, abrahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino 'rjuna. The living entities are traveling from one planet to another, not by a mechanical arrangement but by a spiritual process."

** Presumably, after going back to Godhead we will be of the same intelligence we had before. Then when another day comes where I feel a taste for a higher type of enjoyment than what I am getting in Goloka I may decide to come back to the material world again. Again and again I will come back here. Is it not so? If the personal quest for enjoyment is the driving force then surely my feeling of happiness in Goloka will fade once again. Is it not so? The second question I have is a question I raised before which nobody has answered: why should anybody make an effort to go back to Godhead if eternal associates of Krishna feel this world is a more attractive place to be than Vaikuntha? If the devotees in Goloka feel a desire to come to the material world so they can experience greater enjoyment, why should I want to go to Goloka? Perhaps as a matter of duty and religious zeal we should serve Krishna. But in Goloka the souls serving Krishna as cowherd boys and girls do not feel a sense of duty towards Krishna but instead they live a life of fun in a world centered around Krishna. Souls such as those, it would seem, may sometimes desire to enjoy separately from Krishna. This is very perplexing. [PADA: Yes, it is perpelexing. The answer is that as a general principle, the souls in Vaikuntha / Goloka do not fall down to the material world. Hence we find the Vedas saying that the souls in the spiritual world live there eternally. So the general principle is that there is not a constant flow of people coming and going. Indeed, Krishna also says that those who return BACK to Vaikuntha from planet earth are very rare. So those who fall are very rare, and those who return are very rare, this is not some actively revolving door principle. This is why Srila Prabhupada says, if he can simply take one soul back to Godhead that is his great success, it is not like many people are coming and going. So we have to see this as a general principle, the souls that are in Vaikuntha / Goloka generally stay there eternally, and the souls that are here, stuck in matter, generally stay here. The Vedas use terms such as "nitya siddha" (eternally perfect) and nitya baddha (eternally bound). So once in a great while someone falls from Goloka to here, and once in a great while someone returns from here to Goloka. And those who might go back to Goloka and then return here are rarer still since, there is yet another general principle: "once burned by fire one does not put his hand back into the fire." Therefore for the most part, those who return to Goloka stay there and they do not come back to the material world. We cannot focus on the rare exceptions as the rule. At the same time, even if we return "there is chance" to fall again because otherwise we would not have complete freedom? Again the emphasis is that we are "always" in Goloka as long as we desire to be there, it is never a forced post. Thus generally, the souls that come here and then "return home" stay there perpetually having been "burned by the fire." For the most part the souls that leave Goloka and come here, and then return to Goloka, they do not come back here. There may be a very rare exceptional case and is not to be considered as the main example. Then again Srila Prabhupada did not even want us to bother our weary heads with these issues because for the most part it is only relevant that we have to get out of here, that is the main priority right now. So when Srila Prabhupada says, "No one falls from Vaikuntha," he is stating the main fact -- that the souls in the spiritual world (for the most part) stay there. It is not like they are coming and going like tourists going to Las Vegas. Generally it is an eternally fixed post, and to contemplate other alternatives is not very useful, and is in any case the rare exception. Of course, for the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ BR and BV Puri sector MOST of their alleged "pure devotees" are "falling down" by the zillions, every two seconds one of their pure residents of Vaikuntha splats on the pavement like incessant rain from a demoniac cloud. Their theory is that (a) the neophyte devotee becomes pure and is a resident of Vaikuntha, but (b) only for a few years, then he returns here. Their whole idea is that people are coming and going to Vaikuntha like the bus station at the Las Vegas Sands Hotel. There is no "eternity" at all for these folks, ETERNAL purity is all in flux over the span of a few years.] ** My third question, an unanswered question I asked before in a previous article, is this. Buddha said the gods in heaven do not live there forever since all concrete realms are impermanent. If it is true that "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila" then it must also be true that the world of Krishna is an impermanent residence for souls, since people in Vaikuntha can (and do) fall into a state of illusion from time to time. This is the logical conclusion I arrive at. Can someone please explain to me how my thinking is wrong? [PADA: Just because the eternal abode has been abandoned by some of us, and not all at once but gradually over time -- over hundreds of trillions of years -- this does not make a case that the spiritual world is in a state of massive flux like the material world? We were in Krishna's lila or sport, Jaya and Vijaya were in the spiritual world and they fell, and Satan was an angel, and Adam and Eve were in the garden, these are examples to illustate that the souls had a desire to be "independent masters." This does not indicate that the spiritual world is itself in great flux because some few souls leave and some come back over massive periods of time. And since the largest majority of the souls stay in the spiritual world, that means it is only a minority that are in bondage. At the same time, lest we forget, Srila Prabhupada sort of says this is all far too much for our teeny brains to comprehend, yes it is inconceivable that we loved God and then wanted to be independent of God, but it can and does happen because of "misuse of minute independence." Yet whatever movement of a few souls is occuring at any given time, this has no real impact on the status of the residents of Vaikuntha. Just as when a person is either going to jail or is being released from jail in San Francisco, almost nobody knows or cares, it has no impact on the city itself, and it has about zero impact on the entire universe. For that matter, the residents of the Nob Hill Estates have no idea what is the problem in the Mission District of San Francisco, they are in separate worlds already even when they are right next to one another. In short, a few souls at a time leaving and coming back to planets with hundreds of trillions of entities is not vey significant.] ** I have a fourth question, and a fifth. But before asking my fourth question I would like to present two verses from the Gita. In the Bhagavad gita (8.21) Krishna says: avyakto 'ksara ity uktas tam ahuh paramam gatim yam prapya na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama "That supreme abode is called unmanifested and infallible, and it is the supreme destination. When one goes there, he never comes back. That is My supreme abode. And in verse 6.15 Krishna says: na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama "That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world." Some devotees interpret these verses to mean that a liberated person who has gone back to Godhead from the material world will never fall again whereas souls who have never fallen may still fall at some time in the future if they decide to seek a higher type of satisfaction which they want to experience in the material world. Yet if some cowherd boy in Goloka makes a conscious choice to fall into Maya so he can experience enjoyment separate from Krishna then why doesn't Krishna take care of his silly friend and save him from all the trouble that he will go through? Why doesn't Krishna protect the boy from the reactions that will come about because of his desire to enter Maya and get born in physical bodies that get old and rotten? Krishna says in the gita (9.31): "Declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish." Why does Krishna say that if he doesn't save his cowherd friends from becoming grubs? This is my fourth question. [PADA: Once again, the main emphasis is that "no one falls" from the spiritual world. And Srila Prabhupada says that Krishna does try to tell us not to leave. Yet the main point that should be emphasized is, "Once returning home, no one will come back here," that is the point that was emphasized constantly by Srila Prabhupada. That means any other case is the extremely rare case, so it is not emphasized. Then again, Krishna comes here personally or sends his agents to "tell His servants to return home," and what happens then? Krishna is attacked by so many demons, and / or His pure devotees are crucified or poisoned. If Krishna cannot convince them, what should He do? Force people to march and chant Zeig Heil? No, He wants you -- to want -- to serve Him. He could force you, but that is not His perogative. In short there are not a lot of people HERE who want to -- listen -- to Krishna's message, they wanted to leave Krishna and they ended up in this world. Why doesn't Krishna ask us to return after we get here? He does. There are just not a lot of listeners. And then again we have those who poison their guru, sit in his seat, and exploit Krishna's message. So Krishna sends His pure devotees, and then the pure devotes are attacked, so the actual listeners are few in number. Of course in other ages like Satya Yuga, most of the people return home, that is another thing. Yet to be born in Satya Yuga one has to be purified to a great extent already. So there is the process of going where you deserve, and we deserved to be in Kali Yuga where not many will be liberated. And in this age many will sit around having tea and crumpets with the poisoners of the pure devotee.] ** There are billions of living souls in this world, all of which have fallen into illusion from Vaikuntha (we believe). Why does Krishna allow so many of his eternal friends from Goloka who he used to play with in the pasture grounds fall into a state of seemingly perpetual illusion. (Considering this issue carefully, I am starting to feel I should recant on my earlier decision to accept that the souls in this world fall down from Vaikuntha. It is much easier to accommodate the idea that souls who have fallen from Brahman are filling up this world and that none of the miserable maggots in the rubbish pile at the local junkyard were formerly cowherd boys in Goloka). [PADA: OK, you have failed to offer an explanation so far for how we "desired to leave Krishna"? Before you can dismantle our idea, at least present your idea? At least the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ et al. have some counter idea, their idea is that the "residents of Krishna loka" are extreme criminal deviants. Their idea of Vaikuntha residents is about as pure as a dead beached sea lion, which stinks up the beach as we experienced. Their idea stinks, but at least they have a counter idea? You have to at least attempt to present a better explanation, if there is one?] ** Previously I wrote: If each and every fly and germ in the material world was originally a servant of Krishna in Vaikuntha, if the residents of Goloka such as Gopis and Gopas can become maggots and spend millions of lifetimes in samsara, then what about Krishna's statement "Declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish." (Bhagavad gita 9.31)? [PADA: OK, but when you desire to leave Krishna, you are no longer His devotee? Thus you have to REVIVE your service to Krishna.] ** Mahesh Raja presented an article in which he said that souls in this world start of as Brahma and fall down from there. But then, as he mentioned in quotes he gave in regard the fallen jiva, "before that even, he was with Krishna". That is, before he was a Brahma he was a cowherd (or a resident of Vaikuntha), and then Krishna let this liberated individual who was doing service fall into illusion and become a fool, become a Brahma, and become a maggot. Sorry if my language seems harsh but I want to emphasize this issue that concerns me deeply. If one of the brahmana gentlemen presently advising me how to understand Krishna Consciousness properly would please enlighten me about this matter I would be extremely grateful. [PADA: Well it is simple, you fall down from serving Krishna because you wanted to serve yourself. Then you become entangled in this world and go downwards. Just look at the bogus GBC gurus, they were serving Krishna, then they decided to serve themselves.] ** The next question I have, the fifth question is that I would like to know why a distinction is made in the scriptures between jiva souls who arise from the marginal potency and the eternal residents of Vaikuntha who are said to be expansions of the antaranga shakti? If all of us jivas were originally part of the Goloka-lila and consequently part of the antaranga shakti then why is it that in the scriptures such as Brahma Samhita it is stated that the jiva souls arise from Brahman (not the antaranga shakti)? [PADA: Well this is another interesting point. Some of the souls such as the gopis are considered as the highest devotees, perhaps that means they would never fall down. Yet we also find that sometimes conditioned jivas join up with the liberated gopis in Krishna's lila on this earth, to become trained up as gopis and go back to that service. So it seems that perhaps some former gopis are regaining their original post. It would also seem that some of most advanced devotees, Radha's direct servants for example, they are more or less part of the internal energy, thus they are not ordinary jivas who can fail. Yet the main point remains, that there are conditioned jivas being trained as gopis, so it is possible to go to that level even after being conditioned. Whether they were originally gopis who are reviving their post is an interesting question, but it seems possible. The conclusion is that it seems to be a possibility for any regular jeeva to fail, just like Satan was formerly supposed to be God's right hand servant. After leaving, we may end up falling here and then going to brahman, but that is not our actual source.] ** (Various persons have made comments about how the translations of the writings of previous Acaryas are unreliable translations. But this is a moot point in regard to the English translation we have of Brahma Samhita because that book is coming to us in the direct English words penned by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.) Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote in Sri Brahma Samhita. Text 21: sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakrtis ca paraiva sa TRANSLATION: The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency. PURPORT: Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krishna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Geeta it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning. [PADA: Tatastha simply means the bank of a river, which can move one way or the other, so the souls can go from Vaikuntha to here, and from here back to Vaikuntha. The tatastha idea is that we are able to move, that is the main point here. Marginal and moveable -- means it can remain spiritual, or slip into matter, it is not necessarily fixed. Yet some Sridhara Maharaja and GGM folks tried to tell us that we originate in the marginal area. No, we originate in the spiritual area and because we are marginal we may move into the material. Brahmajyoti is marginal because it is separating spiritual and material, and thus we are likened to that state because we are "in between." So tatastha describes how the river bank can move, it does not say that is the source of the river?] ** Here, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura clearly states in his own words written in English that the jiva shakti is tatastha shakti. Moreover, we do know that tatastha shakti is different from the antaranga shakti from which the parshads (eternal associates) are expanded. So in summary, my fifth question is that I would like to know why the previous Acaryas make a distinction between tatastha shakti and antaranga shakti if the jiva shakti is not truly arising from the "margin" between Prakriti and the antaranga shakti. Shouldn't it become a point of philosophy we preach, that this jiva shakti is made up of persons who used to be in the antaranga shakti but who then became ignorant fools. [PADA: Well ok, if the jiva goes back by his tatastha ability, then he becomes an associate / parisad. Yet you are confusing different points. The devotees in Vaikuntha are able to leave, that is the meaning of tatastha, it does not indicate they started in brahman, it means they have the ability to move here or there. "To revive your dormant Krishna consciousness" means that the internal spiritual enegy is still within us, even in the conditioned jivas, it is just dormant. This is also why the souls cannot be burned, dried, or killed etc., the internal spiritual potency is still there, it is merely covered. Srila Prabhupada says when you wipe the dust from the mirror, then you see yourself. So the soul has to clean off the material dust and then he will see his spiritual body, which is already there, it is just covered by the material dust.] ** I started this article off by saying that I now accept the notion that all the jivas in this world have fallen down from Vaikuntha. But having reconsidered all these points I do wonder if there are serious fundamental problems that have arisen simultaneously with the notion that eternal servitors of the Lord can fall into Maya. Might it be possible, I wonder, that at some time in the future Srila Prabhupada himself will decide to seek happiness in the material world? I appreciate that many devotees will think this statement of mine is scandalous. But truly I am just trying to understand this idea that anyone in Vaikuntha can fall down into illusion. [PADA: Well the first point is that most of your ideas are re-packaged ideologies from the Gaudiya Matha. They opened a can of worms here on this issue, but as we already pointed out, there are so many flaws in their process it is hardly worth considering. Srila Prabhupada has already said: Once we fall and get to know about the bad experience of the material world, we are then experienced in putting our hands in the fire, so we are not inclined to come back HERE to the fire once we go back home. That is even more the case for people who are acharyas, they come here and they are harassed if not killed for their preaching effort, they really know the material world is not heavenly. Thus the acharyas have no inclination to reside in this world whatsoever. As Srila Prabhupada says, the only reason the acharyas come here is to preach. It seems to us that you are thinking the positions of the jeevas in Vaikuntha, or even the acharyas, are changing all the time, but they are not. Change is rare there, even here on earth we see it is rare for someone to serve the pure devotee. Srila Prabhupada also says that by dint of the extreme service performed by the acharyas, they are always protected by the Lord. So there are special cases where certain devotee will get special protection and treatment by dint of extreme sacrifices, and the acharyas are certainly eligible for that. In sum, generally the residents of Krishna loka are staying there in the first place. Those who come here and become liberated go back and stay there without even falling again, that is the general rule.] ** I wonder about all this. If anyone can fall from Goloka into Maya then maybe one day Chandravali and other Gopis will decide to leave aside that life they are living on the slopes of Govardhana. Maybe they will decide to seek the greater joys of life that can be found in the material world. Oh, and if Chandravali decides to leave Goloka, will Krishna let her become a grub or a tree for millions of lifetimes? I just don't know the answer to that. [PADA: Well yes, you were told not to dither on this topic by the acharya himself. The status of great devotees like Chandravali are also not something we should speculate about. We merely presented a few points to help you see that it is not that difficult if we follow the process given by Srila Prabhupada. thanks pd]

I tried to send this post below three times by private but it seems that didn't work, maybe Krsna wants that all people read it. when I read your post I inmediatley remembered this letter below, please I don't want to open a new discussion with this letter, but I consider it very interesting about the soul's origin. 4) Could Chandravali Decide to Leave Goloka? BY: PUNDARIKAKSA DASI [PADA: First of all, Srila Prabhupada did NOT want his followers and his ISKCON society to begin a controversy over the "fall of the soul from Vaikuntha" issue: "Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence--as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more--and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease." SP Letter to Upendra, 10-27-69 First of all notice the fact that we should NOT be "arguing" about this point. Period. Next, there is nothing to argue about since the "soul's origin" (part of jiva tattva) is made very clear by Srila Prabhupada, "we were all originally in Krishna's lila or sport,jivera swarupa haya, nitya Krishna dasa,the original constitutional position of the jiva is to be Krishna's eternal servant." Very clear, we originated in Krishna's presence and this is why Srila Prabhupada also wrote to Revatinanadana that "we have all seen Krishna face to face." Srila Prabhupada repeats this point over and over, "we became envious of Krishna" etc. so it should not be argued? We should accept the words of the guru? So it is a little astonishing that the bogus GBC's "authorities" like Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura govinda/ BV and BP Puri maharajas et al. started a big imbroglio complaining about Srila Prabhupada's idea that we "fall from Vaikuntha (the spiritual world)" just after 1977. Srila Prabhupada says, do not waste your time arguing about this issue, and yet that is all they do all the time. Essentially they are attacking Srila Prabhupada's view that ALL souls are "originally with Krishna." From PADA's perspective this imbroglio was created intentionally by these deviants so that they could divert from the real issue, that Srila Prabhupada's society had been hijacked by deviants, and these "swami advisors" were sneaking their way into authority posts in ISKCON by "working with" the deviants as their "shiksha and rasika advisors." And all of this seems oddly connected to Narayana Maharaja's saying that the reason many gurukuli children were molested is "they had bad karma." The children have the bad karma of coming in contact with Narayana Maharaja's molester cult, since he has been the main scholar backing the pedophile worship cult. This begs the question, why did Narayana Maharaja say that those of us who disagreed with his pedophile worship regime are "poison"? Why does he not try to change people's "bad" karma? Again, this effort tries to blame some "random cause" -- when we all know that Narayana Maharaja was helping cause the molesting by backing their regime. In any case, there is no intelligent reason that Krishna does anything, it is all random fall down, random karma and so on. The "random appearance in the material world" is what we are taught in Episcopal Christianity as well, i.e. most souls are ALWAYS with God, while a few others (ok us unfortunate knuckleheads) are randomly put here in this world -- for no apparent reason. Of course as soon as we try to fix people's "random bad karma" such as child molesting, then we are poison? And in short "Krishna the gambler" gave the residents of the spiritual world four aces, but you unlucky suckers were given a mixed flush, so you are destined to fail and lose from square one because -- God is not fair. Then again this is like the theory of "the chosen people," some are randomly selected and some are not etc. Hence the basic problem with these thinkers is, they blame God for all of the suffering of the material world. This is why some Christians get angry, "Why has God put me here"? They fail to recongize that they desired independence. So these "Krishna" deviant's ideas are akin to the Christian's jiva tattva. Their idea is: God has sent you to sit in the corner and wear a dunce hat, but you did nothing wrong? So they are taking away OUR original choice: to serve God or Maya. They say: you had no choice, you were never in Vaikuntha to "decide" whether to stay there or not. Krishna made the choice for you, and since Krishna is not too balanced or just, He made the wrong choice for you. Too bad! Yet the Vedas say the opposite, that the basic propensity of the souls is to have DESIRES, and the fallen souls DESIRED to turn away from Krishna (the two birds analogy), but if we were never with Him, then how did we turn away? Evidently, the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Gaura Govinda/ Tripurari sabha like this idea because it means: they are not responsible for their being here. All because Krishna is a rambling, gambling dice roller: you either get a lucky roll or you don't. God has no judgement / justice. And in sum God is randomly nasty to some of us, and randomly He rewards others, willy nilly. "God is a sort of rambling, gambling man," perhaps Sridhara Maharaja listens to too much country Western music? So this is one reason PADA has accepted Srila Prabhupada's idea, it is superior to the Christian's "random placement of the soul" idea. Srila Prabhupada says that the thinkers who say that God acts randomly -- have no brains to understand what is the actual plan of God. In sum they say God has no organized process of placing the renegades here and keeping the surrendered there? It all is going on in some disorganized, disjointed, random process. The police might arrest you and put you in jail, or they might take you to the governor's ball as their main guest, you just get punished or rewarded for no reason. In short, Krishna has no rules or guidelines, He may punish or reward for no reason. Hence God operates under the same guidelines as "The madness of King George." So this is the first problem with their theory, they are insulting God as a random / unjust actor who has no intelligent capability to discriminate that some souls are renegades who DESERVE to come down here, while other souls are surrendered and they DESERVE to stay up there with Him. They have no actual criteria for staying there or falling here? The Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ BV and BP Puri maharajas scheme simply does not explain: how do some souls end up here and some stay up there with God -- in an intelligent / justice / rules system? Worse, they BLAME GOD for their own failure to stay up there! So God acts randomly without intelligence. No, there is a very controlled process. ALL OF the souls are WITH KRISHNA, and are given equal chance to stay with God. Then, some CHOOSE to leave. It is not some random function. The Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura govinda/ BV and BP Puri maharaja team did not seem to care one iota for the problems of ISKCON. Rather they began a huge debate over the "real issue," the fall of the soul -- and not the victimization of ISKCON and worse -- they harassed those of us trying to address the victimization. Srila Prabhupada says that people will leave ("bloop") ISKCON, jst like we left Vaikuntha in the first place. There is a choice involved. So they criminally diverted attention from the real problems. And they still are doing that. In sum they have failed to come to grips with their complicity in supporting deviants as messiahs. Worse, they forwarded yet another bogus theory, that the "pure devotee residents of Vaikuntha" -- are in fact quite often deviants, criminals, womanizing drunkards, orchestrators of murder, and that is the fate of many of their "Vaikuntha resident pure gurus." This is the next wave of insane nonsense they started, that their "pure devotee residents of Vaikuntha" -- are deviants. Yet the "soul falling issue" was the exact issue Srila Prabhupada told them to avoid and -- not -- to bother discussing? Then, as we all know, the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ BV and BP Puri maharajas project began to support the bogus GBC's "diksha gurus, shaksat hari tvena, Vishnupada, Radharani's servants, pure devotees, rati keli siddhas and acharyas" (aka "eternal residents of Vaikuntha"). And as we all know their -- "pure devotee's never fall program" -- immediately produced -- "falling down from Vaikuntha" -- left, right and center, including that their "pure devotee Vaikuntha Vishnupadas" (!) are often having illicit sex with disciples and even children. Yet despite constant ongoing scandals, the above "scholars" acted as apologists, cheerleaders and position paper writers for the theory that -- pure devotees, residents of Vaikuntha, Vishnu's padas -- are "falling down" and are indeed "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children." So God is placing souls here in a chaotic way, and the behavior of His fully surrendered dedicated pure devotees is another process of madness and chaos. Indeed Sridhara Maharaja writes that the acharyas (residents of Vaikuntha) "go mad" after money, women and followers. The residents of Vaikuntha are mad criminals! Who knew! And so they said, let us keep the discussion on the abstract "soul origin" topic so we can -- cover up for our child molesting "mad" messiahs. Of course the GBC/ Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda maharaja team did offer to us in 1980: "When our rubber stamped residents of Vaikuntha are taking LSD, having illicit sex with the wives of their disciples, beating up dissenters, neglecting children etc., we should 'wait and see' and not do anything about it." Swell, when the residents of Krishna loka (?) are behaving worse than donkeys and monkeys, we are told by Sridhara Maharaja "none should criticize." So not only do they endorse bad behavior found in Krishna's Vaikuntha parisad devotees, but no one can complain when a deviant juxtaposes illict behavior into Vaikuntha. Narayana Maharaja even said that those of us who object (i.e. do not affix deviations like child molesting to his alleged residents of Vaikuntha) we are -- poison. Yet Narayana Maharaja's boot lickers like Virabahu are more honest. He says that ninety five percent of the GBC's guru / sannyasis / residents of Vaikuntha will fail. So now they are telling us that MOST of the residents, indeed ninety five percent of the residents of Vaikuntha -- will fail and fall. And thus only five percent of the living beings in all the creation will remain with Krishna? Satan wins! So there are many layers upon layers of their deviant ideas, based on their original misconceptions, that the Vaikuntha living entities are not ever falling, except ninety five percent of the time -- when they are falling? Oddly, not too many noticed the utter inconsistent hypocricies here? None of these "scholars" seemed to notice that they are constantly disproving their own theory. Their idea that "no one falls" IS FALSE at least by their own process, because for starters their own rubber stamped "pure residents of Vaikuntha" are unable to take two steps without falling? Worse, there was a panic at one time that their "residents of Vaikuntha" might be spreading the AIDS disease to children, which by the way has never been clearly settled. In other words their "pure devotees who never fall down" could not even uphold the higher standards of behavior of a donkey, monkey or the street trash collector. Srila Prabhupada says that the guru is a resident of Krishna loka and that means he is pure. Whereas the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ BV and BP Puri maharajas project says, their rubber stamped residents of Krishna Loka gurus are also PURE, yet they admit their gurus act worse than donkeys. Indeed an actual donkey is more pure than their "residents of Vaikuntha." And anyone who disagrees with this process is "a bogus ritvik." At the same time -- their Vaikuntha residents, rasika gopi assistants, and pure devotee gurus are maybe giving AIDS to children by sexually assaulting them? In sum, they have no idea what a resident of Vaikuntha is in the first place, apart from all the other holes in their theories. And then people like Sridhara Maharaja began to act as Vatican apologists for his failed "residents of Vaikuntha" project by saying that (acharyas) pure devotees, even Narayana Maharaja's "raskika residents of Goloka," ... "go mad after money, women and followers" as he says in his book "Sri Guru And His Grace." Yet Sridhara Maharaja never explains his idea: (a) He says the residents of Vaikuntha "never fall down," yet (b) He says his gurus, his pure residents of Vaikuntha, are simultaneously -- mostly mad fools chasing after material exploitation? Meanwhile Gaura Govinda Maharaja wrote a paper for the GBC saying that his pure devotee Vishnupada acharyas are (a) always pure and simultaneously (b) often found to be -- asuras, demons. The residents of Vaikuntha are -- demons? Notice that they always use mutually exclusive terms which Srila Prabhupada calls "word jugglery." And then they began to give elaborate rationalizations for how "the pure" are often "impure," or the pure are becoming impure. They just cannot say, ooops, Srila Prabhupada is pure, why not worship him? Instead they started a whole elaborate process of schemes to artificially label deviants as "residents of Vaikuntha," to justify their falling down from Vaikuntha friends. So (a) their Vaikuntha guru "never falls," meanwhile (b) the residents of Vaikuntha are falling, mad fools and -- "demons"? Jayadvaita has summed their Vaikuntha guru project nicely, the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ BV and BP Puri rubber stamped guru's / aka "residents of Vaikuntha" are "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children." Did we forget to mention that these folks are FULL time ASSAULTING the residents of Vaikuntha with such insults! So from the get go, their theory was that "no one falls from Vaikuntha" yet this has always been falling apart because most of their "pure devotees," at least the ones these folks have forwarded -- were (and still are) falling down constantly. Thus there is a huge contradiction in their position from square one. That has to be explained from the get go, that the primary exponents of the "no fall" theory have rubber stamped hundreds of their own concocted "pure devotees" who fall terribly into worse behavior than the ordinary man would engage in. In sum they are hypocrites, or worse. And at the same time -- they are discussing the falling soul issue so they can cover up for all their guru project's molesting and murders, general criminal chaos, degrading of ISKCON, and degrading the status of actual pure devotees, all caused by their alleged "pure residents of Vaikuntha." So, before we can even discuss what it means to fall from Vaikuntha, we have to understand that the residents there are not "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children," as these deviant's ersatz pure guru residents of Vaikuntha (?) are doing left, right and center. We could go on here, but you get the point, their idea (a) that the pure never fail, and (b) the pure fails ninety five percent of the time, this is a contradiction and Srila Prabhupada says contradiction is mateiral.] ** Today I read the new article by Eric Johansen where he argues that souls in this world have fallen down from Vaikuntha and become caught in samsara. I previously sent the Sun some articles in regard to this topic but in my mind I decided not to persist in discussing this matter. However after studying Eric Johansen's article it seems sensible to express a few thoughts which I have had. "OK", I will say. "OK, I was wrong and you are right". OK, now that I have adopted your point of view can you please address some serious concerns I have in regard to this. Mahesh Raja presented the quote below by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. 760805BG.PAR Lectures: Translator: "The question is: did we fall in this material world to find some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world to experience something which is higher? Prabhupada: I do not follow. Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why should we have left? Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... JUST LIKE SOMEBODY IS DAILY EATING PURIS AND HALAVA, AND HE WANTS TO EAT PUFFED RICE. SO THAT TENDENCY IS THERE. THAT IS ALSO A SIDE OF ENJOYMENT. "I am eating daily this, let me eat this." What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So different taste we desire, that "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's all." [PADA: And Jaya and Vijaya also fell down from Vaikuntha. The whole idea of the soul leaving by his own volition actually paralells the other Christian idea that Adam and Even were "with God," but they wanted to experience "the forbidden fruit." The main point is that the infinitesimal jiva souls were -- originally -- with God. Next, there is the Christian example of Satan. Once again, he too was with God, indeed he was a highly placed Angel no less. And yet "he became envious." So this is another paralell. The main idea of Srila Prabhupada, and even the Christian idea to some extent -- is that we "wanted to enjoy the forbidden fruit," or "we became envious." That means, we were with God at the beginning. Otherwise, how could we want to "enjoy separate from Him," or "become envious of Him," if we were never with Him? Therefore, the main point is that we "originated" with God, or as Srila Prabhupada says "we were all originally Krishna conscious living beings."] ** A number of questions arise in my mind after reading this. I hope and pray that the intelligent brahmana gentlemen following this discussion will be able to enlighten a less intelligent person such as I, and provide me with answers to the doubts in my mind. In this quote above His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada says souls come here and get into Maya for the purpose of feeling enjoyment. Presumably, if and when I return to Goloka I will find that the happiness in Goloka I feel is the same as it was before I left. So my concern is this: is there any statement in the scriptures saying that devotees who have come back home after being in Maya are any happier or wiser because of their experience of Maya? [PADA: Apparently, we do "learn" from the bad experience of being in the material world: Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back. Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, 'Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,' I'll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I'll never become." Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

"Haribol! The discussions here on Achintya seem to have boosted up a bit. Please forgive me for not participating in discussions recently, as I have been prey to various personl problems. It seems that this issue of the fall/no-fall of the jiva has come up yet again. I would like to describe my own history with this matter. Please correct me if I may be wrong on any point. I first heard of this contentious issue early on as 1998, but rejected it as it was way to early for my "newly Krishna Conscious" mind to take in, as well as certain factors regarding it's consuming technicality. I am also in possesion of the GBC-endorsed book, "Our Original Position," but I have never made an effort to read it due to it's high technicality. It seems somehow strange (perhaps Krishna's plan?) that I have been slowly acquainting myself with this issue quite reently, having picked up the OOP book several times, and now it seems that we are having a full-fledged dicussion on this matter! What little I did read about it gave me the impression that there were two major factions: 1- Those that said that the jiva soul fell down from the spiritual world and from a personal relationship with Krishna due to it's own desires (free will) to similarly enjoy just as Krishna does. 2- The other party states that souls do not fall from the spiritual world at all and that our apparent state is just like that of a dream. There also seems to be various forms of confusion as to WHERE EXACTLY the jivas originated, the Spiritual World or the Brahman effulgence. There is one urgent point I wish to make that worries me. Recently we have been asked to view websites that are of a Gaudiya Math outlook. Though I personally have no problem with Gaudiya Math philosophy, I believe that my siksa guru is none other than His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the master at whose feet all other masters sit. I look at the philosophy of any other non-ISKCON authority through Srila Prabhupada's books. I believe that this view is in complete agreement with ISKCON/GBC laws and thus I am perfectly within my rights. It is also significant to note that Srila Prabhupada preached the fall theory, while other non-ISKCON authorities such as Gaudiya Matha preach the no-fall theory. That said, let me try to provide some quotes that may clarify Srila Prabhupada's views on the matter. Even though Srila Prabhupada extensively preached he fall theory, certain places in his books show that he also preached the no-fall theory. I hope to show that the former is the main siddhanta that Prabhupada taught and which ISKCON devotees should follow. The Absolute Truth is personal. The jivas are part of that Absolute Truth, and they are also all personal. They have fallen from a personal relationship with the Supreme Lord in the spiritual world. It's simple logic. "These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds, they are taking various grades of bodies". - Letter, July 9, 1970. Prabhupada could have easily said that the souls were coming from the brahmajyoti, but he specifically says that they are coming from the spiritual planets, which are called the Vaikuntha planets. "... if he is properly guided, then he is very easily sent back to home, back to Godhead wherefrom originally he fell down." - Letter, January 20, 1971 If you go back to some place, then you were once there. This is basic logic. Also, the adverb originally is used in this statement. "... we have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago. Anadi karama-phale. Anadi means before the creation... The real desire is how to go to home, back to Godhead." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita, London, August 6, 1973 The Sanskrit word anadi is explained concisely in these sentences. Misapplication of this word is one of the sources of controversy stirred up by the no-fall philosophers. That the living entity came from the spiritual planets of Vaikuntha and is meant to go back there is once again clearly established. "... we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment... so even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that 'Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?' I immediately fall down." - Lecture in Honolulu, July 4, 1974 Now the doubt may be raised that Vaikuntha is bathed in the transcendental light of the brahmajyoti, so maybe the Vaikuntha being spoken of here is in reference (obliquely) to that light, rather than the planets and personal relationships there. Notice, in this quote, that the motivations for coming to the material are explained rather graphically. The mystique that Vaikuntha may be referring to the light is smashed in the next reference. "He is fallen already from Vaikuntha planet. He is fallen in this material world, and he is again trying to make progress." - Bhagavatam lecture in Los Angeles, June 15, 1972. The purport is self-evident. "As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly, we were with Krsna in His lila or sport, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration. . . "... Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma-sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna". - Australian conversation transcribed in BBT Report Nectar of the Month, January, 1982. If you're in the brahmajyoti, you're not with Krsna in His sporting pastimes. The brahmajyoti may be a secondary origination for many or even most of us, on the presumption (verified in this statement) that many of us have attained that stage of liberation at some time during our conditional sojourn. So, on that basis, we may be inclined to that as our origination. However, our ultimate origination "before that even" was in a personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This Australian conversation really covers the essence of the whole controversy and settles it conclusively--for those who actually have faith in the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, i.e., the philosophy of the Absolute Truth. DISCIPLE: If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here? PRABHUPADA: Yes. You forced Krsna to allow you to come... This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy. - Bhagavad-gita lecture in Melbourne, June 27, 1974 Actually, the living entity is never the controller at any time during his eternal existence. In reality, he controls nothing. Even in his rebellion against the Lord, the Lord has to create a place where the jiva can come and completely forget his actual identity. If God did not allow you to forget Him, you would be unable to forget him on your own. The living entity requires the Lord's sanction even in the matter of leaving the spiritual world and the jiva's personal relationship with the Personality of Godhead. "Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition". - Letter, June 13, 1970. The purport is self-evident. "When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord's service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world". - Introduction to Srimad Bhagavatam (5.14) There's no service in the brahmajyoti. That's one of the reasons the brahmajyoti exists: so part and parcels who develop maximum aversion to devotional service have somewhere to go and exist. "He should be restored to his pure identity, in which he engages his senses in the service of the proprietor of the senses." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.24.61. "Therefore, the whole process of God consciousness is meant to rectify the conditional activities of the senses and to re-engage them in the direct service of the Lord". -Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.9.39. Re-engage? How can you be re-engaged in "direct service" of the Lord if you've originally come from the brahmajyoti or some other place that does not facilitate direct, personal engagement in devotional service? Acyutananda: So what made the soul take birth in the first place? Prabhupada: In the first place? Acyutananda: What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth. Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Prema-vivarta: krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare/nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare. As soon as... We are eternal servant of Krsna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Because, Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krsna—so Krsna has got full independence, but we are minute; therefore we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krsna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth. (Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2--Hyderabad, April 11, 1975) Perhaps we may like to know of the statements of some of our previous Acharyas on this matter: However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha... material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas. - Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura, Prema-pradipa, p. 83 It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul... gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God...he begins to get back his pure essential nature... - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323. Then, being bewildered and covered, he is fallen from advaya-vaikuntha. - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Vivritti commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam, 11.2.48 Of course this is an increasingly deep topic that requires much further explanation from devotees much more advanced than I, I hope that I have provided some thoughts to stimulate the discussion. Of course, the main problem with the no-fall theory is that it is covert Mayavada due to it's contention that we originated in the brahmajyoti. This theory then logically concludes that the jivatma comes from an impersonal origin, when that is clearly against what Srila Prabhupada said: "Because he falls down from brahma-sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna". In service of Gaura-Nitai, Sanjay"

I have found this very interesting from Bhagavad Gita Introduction: "The Lord says, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. One who can approach that spiritual sky is not required to descend again to the material sky. In the material sky, even if we approach the highest planet (Brahmaloka), what to speak of the moon, we will find the same conditions of life, namely birth, death, disease and old age. No planet in the material universe is free from these four principles of material existence. Therefore the Lord says in Bhagavad-gita, abrahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino 'rjuna. The living entities are traveling from one planet to another, not by a mechanical arrangement but by a spiritual process." "One should desire and hanker after that supreme kingdom, for when one attains that kingdom, he does not have to return to this material world."