Priitaa

So we are otherwise, boring? I agree that sankirtana is important, and that many devotees have quit preaching. But many things fit into the category of sankirtana.

The feeling of love has its source in Krishna. It came from Him, and we by nature are His children, so we inherit some of His qualities. However, material energy has contaminatd us and so we often confuse lust and love. But to be in love is not necessarily sense gradification. Because we are not pure devotees, changes are, it is mixed. But if we omit love from our life, what do we have? We become cold and hard hearted. Impersonalists in a way. So its not about giving up love, but about peeling away the layers of false love which is lust and/or selfishness, to find beneath it, love. Genuinely caring for the person as an individual and not merely as a sex partner, but as a unique soul. From there we increase it and learn how to develop love of God/Krishna. Matter of fact, I am pretty sure there I put a quote like that (from Prabhupada) in the thread I started called "Love."

I do not know much about Anubavananda, but I do know about Chinmayananda, and he is an impersonalist at best. Vaishnavism is not impersonalism, but Personalism. In other Gitas we are told that God is formless and that our goal should be to 'merege' and become one with God. The minute we read such things, it should be recognized these versions of the Gita are not correctly translated, and are not for Vashnava's who want a Personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Sri Krishna, eternally. Check out http://www.asitis.com

Sorry, but that's not what Prabhupada meant. Now, one could say its better then meditating on lust, though its not the highest instructions, as those of Srila Prabhupada. He was never vague, leaving us to 'read between the lines' or figure anything out. No. He came out with clear cut insturctions. He said no sex even in marriage (sex for procreation, not recreation), except to bring Krishna conscious chlidren into the world. Not to avoid pregnancy, but to try to get pregnant! Only once a month. Plus chanting of 50 rounds earlier that day. Then when there is pregnancy, no more sex until baby is born, 6 months old minimum, and another chlid is desired. Many can't do this and thats fine. Simply, instead of trying to water down the process, we need to accept we aren't advanced enough to do it.

Nah, I've even heard Westerners (famouns ones too) say sex and love are not the same thing. Similarly, various types of sense gradification and love would not be considered the same thing.

"Change of body is there already. You are experiencing, but they do not believe that after death there is body. Why not? If you have got experience in the life--"I have passed through so many changes of body, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, then middle age and old body"--then what is next? Why do you finish here? It is common logic. Why should you finish here? There must be body. This is real reasoning. And Krsna confirms it. Not only your contemplation. Krsna says, tatha dehantara-praptih: "In this way you'll have another body." The Krsna, the great authority, He says, from whom Brahma, the first creature, he learned. Tene brahma hrda adi-kavaye. Krsna, Vasudeva... Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. He... Tene brahma hrda adi-kavaye. He taught this Vedic literature to the heart of Brahma. He can teach you through the heart also because He is sitting there. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese. A particularly mention, hrd-dese, "within the core of the heart." He doesn't say that "Isvara is situated on your finger." No. Within the heart. The particular place is mentioned. Therefore the yogis' practice, real yoga practice, means to find out Krsna within the heart. That is real yoga. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah. This is yogi. Yogis meditate. What for meditation? To find out Krsna within the heart. That is yoga, not to show magic and gymnastic. No, that is not. That gymnastic yoga, that is not yoga. Real yoga is to find out Krsna within one's own heart. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti... That yoga means you have to come to the platform of prema, love, not that simply official practice, you can see. You have to come to the platform... Without having love connection with Krsna, it is not possible to see Him. You may practice this hatha-yoga or gymnastic yoga for many, many births--you cannot see Krsna. Krsna can be seen when you smear with love ointment in your eyes. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena. And that is possible: bhakti, through bhakti. So therefore why not practice bhakti-yoga from the beginning if you want to see Krsna? And that is recommended by Krsna: yoginam api sarvesam mad-gata antaratmana sraddhavan bhajate yo mam sa me yuktatamo matah Krsna says, "He's first-class yogi." Who? "Who is always trying to see Krsna within the heart." So it is very difficult task? In our bhakti-yoga we can teach this art of seeing Krsna within the core of the heart in one minute. It is so simple. You are seeing Krsna here. You must have impression and try to keep that impression within your heart always. Then you become first-class yogi." SB 7.9.34, Mayapur, March 12, 76

"The bhakti-yoga process is practiced by the devotees in different methods like hearing, chanting, remembering, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, worshiping, praying, rendering service in love, becoming friendly, and offering all that one may possess. All nine methods are bona fide methods, and either all of them, some of them or even one of them can bring about the desired result for the sincere devotee. But out of all the nine different methods, the first one, namely hearing, is the most important function in the process of bhakti-yoga. Without hearing sufficiently and properly, no one can make any progress by any of the methods of practice." SB 2.2.36

Agreed. But lets not ruin the mood of this thread. Here's more. You may prefer these. "Sri Rupa Gosvami says that learned acaryas recommend that we follow the regulative principles even after the development of spontaneous love for Krsna. According to the regulative principles, there are nine departmental activities, as described above, and one should specifically engage himself in the type of devotional service for which he has a natural aptitude. For example, one person may have a particular interest in hearing, another may have a particular interest in chanting, and another may have a particular interest in serving in the temple. So these, or any of the other six different types of devotional service (remembering, serving, praying, engaging in some particular service, being in a friendly relationship or offering everything in one's possession), should be executed in full earnestness. In this way, everyone should act according to his particular taste." Nectar of Devotion, Ch 16 "As Guru Maharaja Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati use to say, "Don't try to see God. Is God to come and stand before us like a servant just because we want to see Him? That is not the submissive way. We have to oblige Him by our love and service." BBD, Ch 3 "When you have got a strong sense of love for the Supreme Lord, then it is possible that we can go on discharging our duty, at the same time remember the Lord. So we have to develop that sense." BG Intro, (First tape recorded by SP himself), NY, Feb. 19, 66

"I have got so many students, so many letters, how they are feeling directly. It is so nice. Pratyaksavagamam dharmyam su-sukham kartum avyayam. And very nice to perform. Chant and dance and eat. What do you want more? (laughter) Simply chanting, dancing, and eating nice sweetballs, kachori. So su-sukham and kartum avyayam. While performing, while practicing this process, it is very pleasurable, and avyayam. Avyayam means whatever you do, even if you execute one percent of this movement, that is your permanent asset. Permanent asset. If you do two percent, three percent, four percent... But don't wait for next life. Finish, cent percent. It is not very easy to execute; therefore finish. Don't wait, that "Let me finish in this life a certain percentage of self-realization, and next life I shall do." And what is the test of realization, finishing full percentage? The test is how much you have learned to love God, Krsna, that's all. You have got your love, you love somebody, but if you divide your love, that "I shall love this country and my society, my girlfriend and this and that, or boyfriend, and I shall try to love Krsna also..." No. That is also nice, but if you give predominance, all predominance, simply to love Krsna, you'll automatically love other things, and your life will be perfect. Other loving affairs will not be minus. Just like a Krsna conscious person, he loves not only his family and society; he loves even the animal, he loves even the ant, his love is so much expanded. It is so nice thing. How much you can love? Anything, as soon as there is some misunderstanding, the love is broken. But Krsna love is so sound that you'll never break, and your love will be expanded universally. It is so nice thing. And love you have got. You have simply misplaced your loving capacity to so many things. You just revert it to Krsna, and when you perfectly love Krsna, you'll see that you're loving your country, your society, your friend, more than what you loved before, it is so nice thing."SP lecture & Initiation, Seattle, Oct 20, 68

No, that's not what the (original) ISKCON believed, tho some of its members with problems did, but you'll find that in every religion, even every nonreligion but life. However, these are not Prabhupada's teachings. He says many things about marriage, how the couple can work together in peace in Krishna consciousness, etc.

Haribol Gopal prabhu, I posted this on another forum but it appears you didn't see it, so hope its ok to post it here, as I suspect you come here more often. I remember reading, a while back, that you send out an Ekadasi newsletter. It tells the reader a day or so ahead of time when its about to be Ekadasi. Do you still do this? I recall you are in India. Do you give dates for those of us in America? And lastly, how do I subscirbe? Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks LE, Thanks Babru, This letter from Prabhupada has made me feel so good. I am going to mark this thread to keep that information. Just see how we (me!) think something is what Prabhupada started when really it was a concoction. I wonder how it even got started? I feel for it too. It had all ready been established by the time I joined, so I wasn't about to argue.

Whose worshipping Asuras? I don't know about you, but I limit my worship to God/Krishna.

Who said taking vows is about repression? If you want to have sex, dont take the vows. Its that simple. Once you take them, you should be trained enough and knowledgeble enough to know how not to have sex, without using artificial repression to achieve that goal. (Repression is not the same as sense control.) For the initiated devotee, part of the vow is not to engage in illicit sex. We dont say no sex life. No. There can be sex, for the purpose of propagating Krishna conscious children. When there is pregnancy, no more sex until another chlid is desired, then at the best time to conceive. And 50 rounds are chanted before trying to conceive. This is our standard. I dont know where you are getting your philosophy from, but the more I read, the more I see things which are different from Prabhupada's books. Try to understand, to become a disciple is serious business. So often I see one day a devotee says, "Oh yes swamiji, I so much want to get out of this material world and am therefore willing to do whatever it takes." Then later on, "This vow is repression and not healthy to mind or body. I dont think I should have to do this anymore. Yet, I still think I should get to go back to Godhead." We want our cake and eat it too. I dont know how much experience you have had within ISKCON to give advice, but in this area, you are talking to the wrong person about celibacy as a cause of divorce within our movement. I will tell you why. I use to live in this one (devotee) community where they held women and men's groups. In those groups, what you are sayiing above is exactly what they preached, big time. By the way, this is contrary to Prabhuapda's teachings and is not taught in other devotee communities. However, they were actually telling everyone to go home and have sex with their spouse, otherwise putting fear in them that they would probably end up divorced! It did not save one marriage. Now, I have reserached this, and even the nondevotees will tell you, sex or lack of sex have little to do with divorce anymore. It is life and lack of (living) life that causes divorce. Its lack of kindness and consideration in daily activities that causes divorce. People dont stay married cuz they are lusty and getting some. They stay married cuz they are treated right. Otherwise all these people who are going at it like bunnies (pardon the expression but I need to make the point) would all be happily married and not be getting divorces. Yet we see they are divorcing, often, and in large numbers. Just try to understand. Bhakti Yoga is not about repression. Usually though, one needs to get the training to even comprehend how it could be possibly done any other way. Only training will teach that. With that said, whats selfish is to tell your spiriutal master you will follow all four of those regulative principles, then you decide not to, and he now has to take your karma on his head. -- I am beginning to think you are not familiar with our teachings and/or never lived in an ashrama to get trained up. Ashrama living completely changes a person, makng it easier. It makes everything easier. Then when you move out, you have a life long strength. So, if you have not had this experience, it would be next to impossible for you or anyone similar, to even understand the concept of giving up sex. Its the hardest thing in the entire material world to give up. It takes training, desire to let it go, practice in celibacy, and love of God. Once we have love of Krishna in our hearts, who would want something like sex? Some great saints of the past said they spit at the thought of sex. Not at woman, but at sex. And not to put it down, but to wake us up that there is something that feels even better. Something many can't believe. So the entire family suffers when the spouse isn't getting any. Not so. Besides, hopefully a devotee marries a devotee, therefore both having the same goals of celibacy and God. Simply don't take vows if you want to have sex. Its that easy to resolve this problem. Two souls never become one.

I didn't say anyone specificially said it, and I did say not everyone indicated it. But there is this underlying mood in some posts that if you want sex life, just get a wife. Devotee women get married to share Krishna consciousness with someone, and I know for a fact that in many brahmacari ashrams it is preached that marriage is for sex. Not all brahmacari ashrams preach this so dont misquote me. Anyway, in the brahmacarini ashram we were taught the opposite. DON'T get married if you want sex. First become qualified to marry and work on giving up attachment to sex desire. Then we would marry with the consciousness to have a Krishna conscious relationship. Except the men were taught the opposite. Needless to say, there were many problems as a result. Also, though I don't have a quote, I have often heard it said, the degree we desire sex, to that degree (approximately) we have fallen away from Krishna. Or the other way around too, that to whatever degree we have lost sex desire, to the degree we have increased love of God/Krishna.

Shiva, I've never heard of Rishi being specific for liver, whereas this Liv 52 is an Ayurveic formula. But could you tell me anything more about Rishi and liver? I know about it in general, tho its been a long time since I've studied up on it cuz its a stimulant, and I have to keep my immune system balanced, not stimulated.

Even on the level of subtle body, there is first the heart chakra before the heart can exist. But really, that too is material, just subtle materal energy. It is all coming down from spiriutal energy and Krishna is the Personified source of ALL energy. Srila Prabhupada explained that when there is a heart transplant, Paramatma simply steps aside and then enters into the new heart, as does the individuals soul. We are not these physical bodies, not even the physical heart. They are merely external manifestations of something going on at a much higher level.

I guess what surprised me on this thread by some and not by all, is that one of the regulative principles is made 'optional' once you get married. They are optional for FOLK members, not for initiated disciples. Now don't get me wrong (as I can all ready hear it), householders fall down all the time and I'm a realist. Simply I am saying we should not try to change the standard for grhasta but we should just be honest, call it a fall down, try to pick ourselves up and move on. If we truly want to get out of this material world we have to find a way to give up sex life, and fall in love with Krishna too. I'm just talking about a combination of honesty and not changing the process to make ourselves feel first class when we're not.

This is good news. And to think they gave me such a hard time over neckbeads and how many strands I was suppose to wear!

I received it! And it arrived quickly, as you said. Too soon to tell if its helping me, but it feels right. I read the link on Liv.52 and its very convincing, but it sounded like you have to take a ton of it to get that resullts. I think I read something like 20-22 Gms daily? Two tablets is only 1.20 G, and you only get 60 tablets. I wonder what is the lowest dose that has been reported one can take, and still get those results?

Babru, you make many good points! I am glad to hear someone (you) saw Prabhupada do like this. Yet it doesn't mean he didn't start this current standard (or that he did). He was practical. If there were no beads, I could understand him telling an initiated devotee to take his own and have them put on the neck of the new devotee. But if there are enough beads (or whatever potential complicatoins that may arise, didn't), I wonder if he gave two strands to first initiates, and three to brahaman initiation? It wouldn't bother me either way, I just can't write it off without proof. Now, you know about that. haha I wonder if there is anything in the Veda Base, etc?

Mud, Haribol. I didn't realize anyone replied to me over there, cuz it was on the Health Forum and I checked a couple of times with no replies. Then, got tired. :-) Anyway, this is correct. Soy is not the health food we all thought it was. I know many will not be happy with this news and I was not either. To get the details, one link (and there are many on this topic!) is http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz I just feel if we are avoiding dairy for health purposes, better make sure those things we use as substitutes are really healthy. I admit, I miss my tofu. :-)

The way I look at it, is people want to exercise, or at least some do. They will either go to the gym/aerobic classes, or do hatha yoga. Tho I do agree many get attached to it, and I agree that Krishna consciousnes is the highest, we dont need anything else. But were those sanyasis Prabhupada said that too? I could not figure out the name. I suspect in kali yuga, for householders it may be 'acceptable.' Better than listening to "Y-M-C-A." lol Although as far as devotees themselves starting Atma Yoga or a Hatha Yoga program, I am not so sure Prabhupada would have authorized such a program. When we compare to the types of programs he had us do in the past, this does not seem to fit.

Babru, Thats awful! I'm usually just happy anyone at all is a vegetarian. ha What to speak of prasadametarian. :-) I never had such experiences as you mention above, tho I am the lacto one. Of the few devotees I know who are vegans, the topic hardly comes up at all. And when it does, we both resepect each others choices. Tho it may also be cuz I lean toward reducing dairy, especially with age. Or I advocate (plain) yogurt, which contains digestive enzymes. I dont know why I never had that problem. All I know is it's awful for a devotee to respond that way. In which case, they have not found peace within either. My experiences were different, and in a vegetarian chat room years ago when I use to have access. The person who ran it was good, as any type of veggie was made welcome. But when the vegans would come in, nearly every single time, they would start in on the horrors of milk and anyone who drank it. And MORE than the horrors of meat. Some insulted me and found it easy to do so, told me I was contributing to the slaughterhouse business, etc. In another words, there was no mutual respect and it was all their way or the highway. One day when I got sick of it, and they were talking about violence vs peace, I told this story I actually read years ago. And this is getting long, so to sum it up, it was by a woman who spent much of her time dedicated to creating world peace by traveling around the world doing this or that. She was always irritated that the people, even after hearing, continued to contaminate the environment, promote war, and so on. One day she realized she was ALWAYS mad. She said while she was running around preaching peace, she did not have it within. Then she stopped all the traveling and preaching, and started working on herself. Her point was, and I feel this is a good one, that we can't have world peace if we dont have inner peace ourselves. So I am thinking how we can do all these 'things,' but if we don't change our consciousness, those 'things' won't change it for us. Hope this wasn't too wordy. It was something I've wanted to tell in the past.

Thank you. I always suspected something along those lines. Even in the past when they said how harmful it was, I next read an editorial by a reputable magazine claiming the fears being spread are untrue or taken out of context. Now years later, its happening again. Tho it may be important for people know know the whole herb is whats safe and not the extract. At least that's what I understand you to be saying.