Priitaa

Much has been written about Mozart and scientific evidence that those who listened to his music raised their intelligence levels. Is there any scientific information proving Krishna kirtana or bhajana can also do this? Of course, my belief is that it does, but to be able to prove it scientifically, that would be great! And I need the info too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Myra, I hope you don't mind that I also respond to your question, as I had similar concerns when I first joined the movement. I did not understand this unusual concept of what appears to be animals, so I asked questions, and they got answered. But I don't feel anything should be pushed on anyone. I don't find it necessary to put Ganesh, Garuda or Hanuman on your altar. Even if we were to go to India, we would see many people giving worship to many demi-gods, who we as devotees do not worship. But we know how to simultaneously respect them, say for example, as one would respect a president or king, only they are in charge of an entire planet, but they are not God. And you are giving respect, so no problem there. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Although Ganesh, Hanuman and Garuda are not in the same category of demi-gods. Well, Ganesh could be, but that is not his real position. For all of them, their real position is that they are Vaisnavas. As far as the animal part is concerned, this is one question I had too. One answer I was given was that in this age we live in called Kali yuga, an animal is just that - an animal. But in previous yugas there were different species. For example, there could be a monkey species that was highly intelligent in comparison to the monkey's of today. And there was. Hanuman was amongst that species, and he was not the only one. Even he had a famed brother, Sugriva, and an entire community as well. So we can see there were many at that time, simply its not in the mundane history books. Or not in most. I have a suspicion if deep research were done, an intelligent monkey species from the past would be located. Especially since Hanuman is still living in India, so there probably are traces of relatives in the mountains up there. Anyway, that is part of the answer - that the animal-bodies of the past and those of today are not the same species. This would also apply to Garuda - different species, and highly intelligent too. Something we dont have experience of anymore. As for Ganesh, he is the son of Lord Shiva. In a different way, it still is true that he is not the same species we are acustomed to. He wasn't even born on this planet but in the heavens, so its an entirely different ballgame. Anyway, he too is Vaisnava. This is how the devotees understand these so-called animal-bodied personalities - not as animals at all but different species from those we have not had experience with, and highly intelligent which is opposite to that of animals in this age, and as pure devotees of God/Krishna. I don't know if this helped or not, but thats my two cents. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

LOL Or maybe Ganesh, Hanuman and Garuda are. Or Krishna! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hope I'm not too late either, but Govindaram, I never felt anyone here wanted you to go, or judged you anymore than they judge anyone else. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Don't worry about what others think, just follow what you believe to be Krishna conscious. Hope you will stay.

Of course not all of Prabhupada's initiated disciples are brahmanas. All of Prabhupada's initiated disciples are Vaisnava's. Brahmana is just a material designation. I just heard Prabhupada say that himself in a class on MP3. In the lecture you stressed, Prabhupada is speaking about VAD (varnashrama dharma) which is not transcendental Krishna consciousness. It can be used as a stepping stone for those who wish to go that route, but its not the highest, not the same as his preachings on cent per cent Krishna conscioiusness.

Thiest, The previous lecture excerpt I put here came from a different date than yours did. The one you posted appears to be the right one. Here it is in its entirety. Sorry for its length, but this way devotees can read it all without anything taken out of context or misunderstood. ---- Morning Walk "Varnasrama College" -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana Prabhupada: ...technological college. Similarly, this is another college, varnasrama college. Satsvarupa: For the public in general? Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this varnasrama college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training. Hrdayananda: Would it be for a particular age group? Prabhupada: Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. Hare Krsna. Kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan iha. The... How... We are getting so many sannyasis, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyasis. Just like in missionary school, the fathers teaches. Hrdayananda: How would it be different than gurukula? Prabhupada: Eh? Hrdayananda: How would it differ from gurukula? Prabhupada: Gurukula is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the varnasrama school or college for further developed training. Hrdayananda: They should... Should they be taught also some... Should there also be teaching in some particular skill or varna? Such as say... Prabhupada: No. Hrdayananda: Say, for example, someone was a, a ksatriya by inclination, or a...? Prabhupada: No, inclination can be changed also. If one has got little ad... But we should take little advantage of the inclination. Not that... That is to be decided by the... Inclination or no inclination, we can... That will be done. That is not very difficult. This is a most important item. Because people have been spoiled all over the world by being misguided by the so-called leaders. Therefore varnasrama college is required. Hare Krsna. Hrdayananda: But Prabhupada, I'm still not quite clear. In other words, we'd teach, for example, like Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna. Jaya. Eh? Hrdayananda: How much would be expected of the students as far as...? Would they live with us and follow the four principles? Like that? Or just come for classes or...? Prabhupada: Yes. Come to classes you won't get. Because nobody has got any taste for such thing. A boarding school or boarding college would... Hrdayananda: Boarding school. Prabhupada: Yes. Hrdayananda: And there should... Should there be any material subject matters taught like in gurukula? Prabhupada: Yes. Just like material subject matter, ksatriya, or the brahmanas, ksatriya, as they are described in the Bhagavad-gita, what are the symptoms of brahmana, what is the symptoms of ksatriya. The ksatriyas should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill. Hrdayananda: Oh. Prabhupada: Yes. And vaisyas should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical. Nitai: Not business also? Prabhupada: Eh? Nitai: The vaisyas? Prabhupada: Business, this rascal business, no. Nitai: No? Prabhupada: Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell where there is necessity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and... No. We are not going to do that. That is sudra business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Is it difficult? This is the business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a ksatriya, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a brahmana, or as a ksatriya, or as a vaisya, or as a sudra. Hrdayananda: What kind of training is there for a sudra? Prabhupada: Sudra is general assistant. Hrdayananda: Oh, just... Prabhupada: Order-carrier. He has no intelligence. He doesn't require intelligence. "Do this." That's all. Satsvarupa: What would he learn at the school, though? Prabhupada: Eh? Satsvarupa: What would his business be at that varnasrama college? Prabhupada: Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is sudra. He must agree to abide by the orders of brahmana, ksatriyas, vaisya. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and arati. And balance--he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit. Yaduvara: Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: Yes. Yaduvara: What class does the arts and crafts come under? Prabhupada: Eh? Sudra. Yaduvara: Sudra. Prabhupada: They are sudras. Little arts and crafts can be trained up to the sudras. They, at the present moment, they have given too much stress on the arts and crafts. Yaduvara: Hm. Yes. Prabhupada: Therefore the whole people, population, is sudra. Hrdayananda: It is a fact. Prabhupada: That is a... That is the difficulty. All people are being drawn by giving them, I mean to say, attraction for high salary, and they are taking so-called technical education, and all of them working in the factory. Nobody's working on the field. They are sudras. (break) Hrdayananda: ...artist is accepted as a philosopher in life. Prabhupada: Eh? Hrdayananda: In our society (break) ...accepted (break) ...as a philosopher. Prabhupada: Artist? Hrdayananda: Yeah, the artist. Prabhupada: No, no. Artist is also business of the sudra. Hrdayananda: Yes, but in our... I'm saying, in modern society in America, they are considered... (break) Prabhupada: Nonsense philosophy. They do not know what is the meaning of philosophy. Hrdayananda: Yes. Prabhupada: That, in your western countries the rascals, they are writing philosophy on sex life, which is known by the dog. Hrdayananda: Yes, yes. Prabhupada: And he is writing so many things. So they are rascals. (break) ...human being. You see. What is this philosophy? Sex life? Even dog knows how to have sex life. And he's writing philosophy. So this kind of philosophy can be appreciated by the rascals and... (break) We do not appreciate that. They are not philosopher. Philosopher means who is searching out the Absolute Truth. That is philosophy. Hrdayananda: Jaya. Prabhupada: That is philosophy. Darsana. Darsana means search out what is the ultimate. Jnani ca bharatarsabha. Catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtino 'rjuna, arto 'rtharthi jnani ca bharatarsabha, arto 'rtharthi jijnasur jnani ca bharatarsabha. These are philosophers. Even the artah, even a distressed person, he is praying to the Supreme Authority, "My God, I am very much hungry. Kindly give me my daily bread." He's also philosopher, because he's searching out the Absolute Truth. He's philosopher. Not this Freud rascal, elaborating how to have sex life. So this kind of philosopher, they... What is called? In Bengali: vane haye srgala raja.(?) "In the jungle a jackal becomes a king." So because western people, they have no... They're all less than sudras. So a Freud has become a philosopher. Vane haye srgala raja. "In the jungle, the jackal has become a king." That's all. What is knowledge there? It is that... The whole western world is going on for industry, for making money, eat, drink, be merry, wine and women. That's... They're all less than sudras and candalas. This is the first time attempt is being made to make them human beings. Don't mind. I am using very strong words. That is the fact. Hrdayananda: It's true. Yes. Prabhupada: Otherwise, they are little animals with four hand, two legs, two hand, hand animals. That's all. Yes. Rejected them. Vedic civilization rejected them, mlecchas and yavanas. But they can be reformed. The process is the same. Not that because they are rejected, they cannot be reclaimed. They can be reclaimed also. Just like you are being done. Although you are coming from the mlecchas and yavanas, by training, you are becoming more than a brahmana. So there is no bar for them. Unfortunately, these rascals do not agree to accept. As soon as you say, "No more illicit sex," oh, they become angry. As soon as I say, "There is no meat-eating," they become angry. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopayati na samayati (?). The rascals, fools, if you give them good lessons, education, they will be angry. Prakopayati na samayati. Payah panam bhujanganam (?). The snake, if you give him nice milk and banana, the result will be he will increase his poison. Payah panam bhujanganam kevalam visa-vardhanam. But Krsna's grace, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's grace, they are being now trained up. Now you be trained up and revise the whole edition of the western civilization, especially in America. Then a new chapter will come in. This is the program. Therefore varnasrama school required. Hrdayananda: So Prabhupada, in this varnasrama college, is it true that there will be no need, for example, for teaching material history and mathematics and...? Prabhupada: No, there is no need. History, we simply read Mahabharata, history of the great men, Pandavas, how they were fighting for the good cause, how they were reigning. That history. Not this rascal history. If you study that history millions of years, what is that history and what you'll learn from that history? You learn history of the really great men, how they worked, how they ruled. That is a... You study history of Maharaja Yudhisthira. Hrdayananda: Mahabharata. Prabhupada: Study the history of Maharaja Pariksit. That is required. Not that simply chronological record, all nonsense, and big, big books, and making research. Why should you waste your time in that way? Hrdayananda: Jaya. Yes. And so... Prabhupada: Hm? History must be for great person. This is history. Hrdayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow... Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the ksatriyas... Just like ksatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also. Hrdayananda: What he kills. Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are ksatriyas, they can, they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the ksatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas. Hrdayananda: But never the cow. Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life--marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition. Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, is this school for women also, or just for men? Prabhupada: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home. Satsvarupa: So they don't attend varnasrama college. Prabhupada: No, no. Varnasrama college especially meant for the brahmana, ksatriya and vaisya. Those who are not fit for education, they are sudras. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education--sudra means. That's all. They should assist the higher class. Hrdayananda: Would the brahmanas learn Sanskrit? Prabhupada: Eh? Not necessarily. Hrdayananda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy. Prabhupada: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why? Hrdayananda: Not necessary. So in this varnasrama college there would be two divisions, varna and asr... Learning a materia... Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama, then, when the varna is perfectly in order, then asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varna is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If varna is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varna is working perfectly, then we give them asrama. Varnasrama. That is later on. Hrdayananda: First they should be taught a skill. Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varnas, there will be no question of unemployment. Hrdayananda: But from the very beginning there should be taught Bhagavad-gita and... Prabhupada: Eh? Hrdayananda: From the very beginning we should teach Bhagavad-gita? Prabhupada: Yes. But our, our position is that we are above varnasrama. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Krsna conscious men, we are above varnasrama. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody's shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it... Just like a servant is doing. The master is, "Oh, you cannot do. Just see." Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any varna and asrama. But we have to show these rascals. Just like Dhruva Maharaja. He, he was perfect Vaisnava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that, "Oh, I am now become Vaisnava. I cannot kill." What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yaksas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything then the Yaksa-raja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that "You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yaksas. So you can take some benediction from me." He said, "That's all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Krsna. That's all." This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and, the Yaksa-raja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe. But he made that, "Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Krsna." This is Vaisnava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Krsna. Similarly, even if we take to varnasrama, we do not belong to any... Just like Krsna says, maya srstam. "I have inaugurated." But Krsna has nothing to do with varnasrama. Similarly, if we act as varnasrama, still, we have nothing to do with the varnasrama. Hrdayananda: Prabhupada, can you say something about the training for a brahmana. Prabhupada: Yes. They are satyam samah damah. He must be truthful, he must control the senses, control the mind... samo damah,... He must be tolerant. He should not be agitated in trifle matters. Satyam samo damah saucam. He must be always clean. Three times he must take bath at least. All the clothing, all, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Krsna. This is brahmana. Hrdayananda: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in? Prabhupada: They'll be teaching. They'll be all teachers. Hrdayananda: Oh, they'll be teachers. Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Dronacarya. He was brahmana, but he was teaching military art to the Pandavas. General teacher class will be the brahmanas. It doesn't matter what he's teaching. But teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna's fighting was due to Dronacarya. He learned it from Dronacarya. He was a brahmana. But because he took the position of a teacher, he thought very perfectly. A brahmana should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he'll become teacher. This is brahmana. Hrdayananda: So brahmana can teach how to fight? Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmana means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything. Satsvarupa: This is all very new. Prabhupada: Eh? Satsvarupa: This is very new. It seems there'll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school. Prabhupada: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult? Satsvarupa: Yes, we have to... No, we have to learn, though. Prabhupada: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop the floor. Satsvarupa: Then it becomes easy. Prabhupada: But I must know everything because I am a teacher. Hrdayananda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varnasrama, say, the first teacher at the varnasrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to... Prabhupada: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varnasrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions. Visnujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brahmanas that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows. Prabhupada: Yes. Visnujana: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well. Prabhupada: Yes. That's right. He is brahmana, but he's teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing. Hrdayananda: It's not that one teacher has to teach everything. Prabhupada: No, no. Hrdayananda: Oh, I see. So a brahmana teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that. Prabhupada: Yes. Hrdayananda: Oh. It's very exciting, Prabhupada, because all the, at the present time in the... Prabhupada: No, the thing is that actually, at the present moment, they are sudras or less than sudras. They are not human beings. The whole population of the world. It doesn't matter whether it is western or eastern. That is the position. So unless they are trained up, so the society's already in chaos, and it will go on still more in chaos, chaos. It will be hell. How people will live? And these rascals are being elected as government men, and they're only making budget how to tax. So one side, there is no rain; one side, there is no rice, especially in India; and one side, heavy tax. So they'll be all confused. They have already become confused. So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Krsna conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given. Visnujana: Preliminary. Prabhupada: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion. Otherwise, how the brain will work? Visnujana: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind. Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Krsna consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they'll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Krsna consciousness. And this is the method--varnasrama. Hrdayananda: So just to clarify, Prabhupada, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnasrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general--you've made some exceptions--but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gita and then, side by side, they learn a... Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory. Hrdayananda: Yes. Prabhupada: But if some of the ksatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the ksatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing. Yaduvara: How would the ksatriyas kill the animals? Prabhupada: Eh? Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow? Prabhupada: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the ksatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, parivraja, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... Or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine. If it is available. If somebody criticizes, "Oh, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on leg and you are travelling in the jet plane?" Shall I have to take that ideal? These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That's all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and... So why should I not take it? It will be recorded. It will be heard by so many others. I am speaking to four, five men. It can be heard by a big crowd of four hundred men. Visnujana: So we should perpetuate this technical skill of... Prabhupada: No. We are not going to... But if somebody's interested doing, so we take it, make the best use of it. Visnujana: Oh, I see. Prabhupada: Just like we do not want money. But they are having money by so many ways. So we take their money and construct a temple. We can sit down here and chant Hare Krsna. We don't require that temple. But these rascals are accumulating money for wine and women. Take their money, some way or other, and builds a temple. And invite them, "Come and see." Give them prasadam. This is our policy. We are not constructing big, big buildings and temples for our convenience. For their convenience. This is sannyasi. Visnujana: So there should always be programs in the temples for their welfare, not... Prabhupada: Yes. Visnujana: ...that we live there and... Prabhupada: No. But we are taking it, "Now we have got very nice house, room. Let us sleep and eat." Visnujana: Then there'll be wide criticism. Prabhupada: That is... This is not good. Hrdayananda: Prabhupada... Prabhupada: You should remain always sannyasi within. Outwardly, for others' convenience, you may do something. Similarly, we are accepting this varnasrama. We are not varnasrama; we are above varnasrama. But to give others facility to come to the stage of Krsna consciousness, this program must be done. Hrdayananda: Prabhupada, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position? Prabhupada: No, we don't charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the brahmanas, they'll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven't got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? So therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money. Hrdayananda: The vaisya students will produce the food. Prabhupada: Yes. Satsvarupa: Should our children who are at gurukula, when they grow up, should they go to that varnasrama college, or...? Prabhupada: Yes, yes. They should go. Hrdayananda: We'll start it right away. Prabhupada: Varnasrama college means for grown-up students. College means for grown-up students. Hrdayananda: Is there a minimum age for beginning such a college? Prabhupada: Yes. Ten to twelve years. Hrdayananda: They can start at ten to twelve? Prabhupada: Yes. From five to ten years, gurukula. And after ten years, they should go to the varnasrama college. Visnujana: New Vrindaban would be an ideal place in America for such a school. Prabhupada: Yes. Organize that. Visnujana: Yes. Prabhupada: Yes. I shall go. Visnujana: This Maharaja is also going to New Vrindaban. Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Visnujana: He can... Prabhupada: Do that. Kirtanananda Maharaja, you, and combined together, do that. Visnujana: Yes. Prabhupada: We have got so many duties to do. Don't waste time, a single moment. And don't eat more and don't sleep more. Then you'll be able to work. Visnujana: And this is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure of...? Prabhupada: Eh? Visnujana: This is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure to stop the chaos in the world? Prabhupada: Yes. Visnujana: That's most auspicious. Prabhupada: Most auspicious. Because if the people are in chaos, how they'll be able to accept the great philosophy? It requires cool brain. Visnujana: For example, in my program... Prabhupada: Budhah. Budhah. Eh? Yes? Visnujana: My program now is I have ten brahmacaris in buses, and everything and we're distributing books. But if the people are in chaos, how they will be able to accept the knowledge in the books? Prabhupada: No, not all of them are in chaos. There are some of them. Some of them. Not that all of them. Hare Krsna (break) ...in separate department. Passer-by: Radhe, Radhe! Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Just see. Due to the past training, even an ordinary man, he's chanting, "Radhe, Radhe." Visnujana: When we had our boat, the boatmen every morning were... Prabhupada: This is India. Visnujana: ...worshiping... Prabhupada: Because, due to past culture, even the lowest class of men, he's also great philosopher than these rascals in western countries. Hrdayananda: So all the other programs should be continued, and this program should be added. Prabhupada: Yes. Parivrajakacarya: Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: Eh? Parivrajakacarya: Would the...? The persons who would take part in such program, they would have to be devotees in the first place. Is that...? Prabhupada: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this varnasrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position. Parivrajakacarya: So the students, also, they must all be devotees. Prabhupada: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul. Satsvarupa: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as vaisya or... Prabhupada: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopis, even up to the point of becoming prostitute--for Krsna. So for Krsna's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Krsna we have to do that. Hrdayananda: So, Prabhupada, in our temples, we have so many devotees. Should the devotees...? Prabhupada: They should be engaged. Hrdayananda: Should they be trained in a particular...? Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plough department, agriculture. Hrdayananda: Those who cannot preach. Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as ksatriya or vaisya, or as sudra. Hrdayananda: And sometimes... Prabhupada: :Not he's sudra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy. Hrdayananda: So we should encourage people, young people, young students to come to our college. Prabhupada: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is a question of poverty, they'll come. Hrdayananda: Room and board and training. Prabhupada: Yes. This poverty. Why there is poverty? Because they are not producing food. Everyone wants so-called comfortable life. So-called education. Sitting idle in the table and chair, and talking all gossips, nonsense, and sleeping. They have been trained up in this way, sudra. Hrdayananda: So they should be trained to rise early and so on. Prabhupada: Yes. No, if you keep healthy, then you will naturally rise healthy, er rise early in the morning. But if you... Because you have lost all, what is called? Stamina? Hrdayananda: Yes. Yes. Prabhupada: Therefore sleeping is my only business. Sleeping means for the weak. And for the strong, perspiration. This is the sign. When a man sleeps too much, he's weak in his health. And the strong man will perspire. These are very... Balera ghama, and the durbalera ghuma. Ghama and ghuma. Ghuma means sleeping, and ghama means perspiration. (break) ...principle. And human beings means trained up under principle. That is the difference between animal. The animals, they cannot take up any training. But the human being, this human form of body is meant for taking training. So if they are not properly trained up, they remain animals and the whole society in chaos and confusion. That's all. (break) ...moment, the human society's so degraded that even we are walking, this is also risky. This is also... Gradually, it is becoming. Just like in our New York... That Berkeley? Berkeley? No. Brooklyn. It is difficult to walk due to the Negroes. They immediately: "Whatever you have got, give me." There are so many incidents. In such city as New York there is always danger like that. If somebody kills you, nobody will take care of you. The human society has become... And in India still, they are not so degraded. You see. Even at night you can safely walk on the street. But in Europe, America, you cannot with confidence walk alone in the big, big streets. So human being has become so degraded. Less than animals. They can attack you. Just like in the forest any ferocious animal can attack you at any minute. The whole big, big cities have become like that. (break) ...example that they have started that United Nations. What they have done actually? United Nations. Eh? Hrdayananda: Nothing. Prabhupada: Have they done anything progressive? Hrdayananda: No. Prabhupada: So? Big, big advertising, "United Nations." All nations, you... Because all the cats and dogs united. What they can do? If the all the world's cats and dogs meet together to make a formula, will they be able? (laughter) So actually, this is the proof. They're all cats and dogs. What do they know how to unite, how to live in peace. They do not know even. Because they're animal, cats and dogs. This is the proof. Just study this institution. What they have done? Am I right or wrong? Hrdayananda: Right. Prabhupada: Yes. So study this institution. Visnujana: Thirty years now. Prabhupada: Eh? Thirty years they are struggling for United Nations, big, big expenditure, so many humbug, bharam udvahato vimudhan, humbug program, and no result. Prahlada Maharaja said, "I am thinking, I am, only for these rascals. They're making humbug program, but there is no action. And for temporary, so-called happiness, without God consciousness. I am simply thinking of them. Otherwise, personally, I have no problem." This was spoken by Prahlada Maharaja to Nrsimhadeva. Soce tato vimukha-cetasa maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan. (break) ...business has become like Prahlada Maharaja. We can chant anywhere. That's all right. Krsna will provide everything. We have no business to do. But we have to take them because we are sympathizer, that so many people are being killed by this modern civilization. They had the opportunity to become Krsna conscious, but by the set-up of this rascal civilization, they are being killed spiritually. Therefore we have to take it. (break) ...devotee, personally, he has no problem, but he pushes himself in this degraded society to teach them how to live, how to become gentlemen. Therefore... Otherwise, we have no business. But if we don't give them the opportunity, they'll not be able to come to Krsna consciousness. (break) ...it will be good for you because Krsna will see, "Oh, here is My devotee. He's doing so much for me." Your service will be recognized by Krsna. Don't think that because you are teaching a sudra how to work like this, you have become a sudra. You are not sudras, any circumstances. Even though you teach to a sudra how to work like a sudra. (break) ...stand. Don't misunderstand. Clearly understand what is the purpose. Is there doubt? Or it is clear? Satsvarupa: Yes. Prabhupada: Yes. Visnujana: One good example in New Vrindaban, they're actually doing that. They're training ksatriyas, they're training... Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. That was the very beginning... Visnujana: ...vaisyas... Prabhupada: I started the New Vrindaban scheme on this formula. Visnujana: Kirtanananda Swami has carried it out just as you have desired. Parivrajakacarya: So in a sense, New Vrindaban is already... Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. The starting is already there. Visnujana: They even have a court system now. They started it when I was there last time. They have so many members that sometimes someone may commit some offense or something. They even have a judicial type of system where he comes before a board of members, older members. Prabhupada: Yes. All fights should be decided by the board. That's nice. And it will be accepted even by the court. Here, in India, there is such system. A board of five, ten men in the village, if there is some fight between two parties, whatever the board will decide that will be accepted in the court. Pancayeta. It is called pancayeta system. (break) ...tion. You join. There will be no scarcity. This will engage people. Some are, some of them will be engaged to produce food. Where is the question of scarcity? There is food, there is milk. Eat and drink and be human beings. Visnujana: When we first go to open a temple in a city we get an apartment or a storefront. But then, when more and more people come, then we should get land and cows and everything and... Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Visnujana: ...and turn it into a society. Hrdayananda: Ah, that's wonderful. Satsvarupa: Many times our devotees get cheated in business dealings by inexperience. So should they learn from... Prabhupada: How to cheat others. (laughter) Satsvarupa: No, not how to cheat, but from experienced devotees how to not be cheated? Prabhupada: Why should you go to a person who cheats you? (end) Conversations 740315mw.vrn

Thiest, Thanks for pointing all that out. I was in a hurry when reading it, and did not see all that. Am glad you posted it. With that said, I see Prabhupada as merely explaining how kstriyas 'were' trained, not that he wanted 'us' trained that way. I only have an old VedaBase - some call it a folio. Not sure what the difference is, by its an old version. Its hard to copy over in general, but not the diacritics. Matter of fact, they seem to come out quite well. So I really dont know why, but mine is a DOS version - old. And somewhat incomplete.

There is no room conversation but there is a Morning Walk under that date and place. Is this what you meant? ---- Devotee: It seems that people are so attached to sense gratification, if we tell them we want to stop all these facilities for drinking, cinema, women, like that, they become angry. Prabhupada: So that, that is natural. If you give good instruction to a rascal, he'll be angry. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopayati na samayati (?). Murkha, a rascal, if you give him good instruction... But give him practical. "Come here. Sit down. Take prasadam. Chant Hare Krsna. And help me by doing this." In this way you have to... Just like a child. Child does not want to go to school, but some, by... Find out some means so that he'll be induced. That is intelligence. He'll be angry, naturally. He's a rascal. He'll be angry. That is not unnatural. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopayati na samayati (?). Just like a snake. You feed the snake with milk. It will increase the poison. That's all. Practically attract. Practically attract. That is the Hare Krsna movement will practically attract the people. If the world affairs are adjusted according to our Krsna conscious plan, there will be no difficulty for all the nations, all the countries. They will be happy. So we have to educate people gradually. And by our example, living example, we'll have to attract. (pause) Local people: (calling out in distance) Harilalji! Harilalji! Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. At least they are remembering Harilalji by seeing us. So much benefit was in that. Eh? Gupta: When we pass, people say "Hare Krsna, Hare Rama." Prabhupada: This is the test of Vaisnava. If one is actually Vaisnava, then by seeing him one will chant Hare Krsna. This has been created all over the world. Yes. Wherever we go, they chant Hare Krsna. Even at midnight in Athens. Yes. That we have experienced. This is the definition given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Jayadvaita: Prabhupada, if Krsna had already done all the work at Kuruksetra, so why was He so eager to have Arjuna work? Prabhupada: Huh? Jayadvaita: Because He'd already done the work. Prabhupada: Yes. Jayadvaita: Why did He want Arjuna to work? Prabhupada: Just to show example, that "Don't sit idly, rascal. Work." Krsna has already done, but you must work. This is the example. Jayadvaita: People will argue that "Why should we work? If we can make an arrangement for being idle..." Prabhupada: Eh? Jayadvaita: People argue that "If we can make an arrangement to be idle, then it's nice. We've worked so hard. Now we can be idle. That's nice." Prabhupada: Then, that, if you become idle, you'll be diseased. You'll have dysentery. That's all. That will not help you. You'll have to suffer. That, that, that stage has already come. Because so many rascals are idle, now there is so many things want. So you'll suffer. If you don't work, then you'll suffer. (end)" Morning Walk, March 15, 74, Vrndavana India ---- In any case, I have never read any place where Prabhupada said meat eating is ok for US under certain Vedic restriction. And meat eating is never allowed restrictively by (so called) Vedic injuncsion within ISKCON. I dont know where you are getting that from, but ask anyone who has lived in a temple. We are extremely strict about meat eating. No one can live on temple property or take initiation who eats meat, intoxication, indulges in illicit sex or gambles.

Sorry this took me so long to get back here with this info. Below is the link to soy, one amongst many. Soy often is used to replace milk (soy milk, and I use to love carob VitaSoy!). However this, and most other soy products, have turned out not to be so good, and even, bad. I remember hearing that Vedically, soy is considered a lower class food. Has anyone else heard this? Anyway, if so, possibly thats a contributory reason for its ill health effects. (speculation) Just for the record, I am not a happy messenger of this bad news, so please don't kill the messenger. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Soy info: http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz

Govinda dasi has many such pictures on her site, as well as nectar. No guarantees, but chances are high you will find the picture you are looking for there. http://www.iskcon.net/govinda

Kalki, Thanks. I dont technically have liver disease, but thyroid disease. However, the liver converts what the thyroid makes, or is suppose to make. My liver isn't doing its job. Now soy, I no longer recomment that to anyone. Will get the web site to you later about how its no longer viewed as a health food, etc. But I take Triphala, Milk Thistle, Schizandra, and vit c as recommended. Now, Liv 52. Something's got to work! :-)

I thought I was signed in and could go back and upload the pic, as is required. But I was not. Will try it again. It worked! /images/graemlins/smile.gif So, is this the picture you were looking for? You can print it, maybe enlarge it, not sure. Or someone may have a bigger version for you to print.

Exactly! /images/graemlins/smile.gif "Therefore Radha is parama-devata, the supreme goddess, and She is worshipable for everyone. She is the protector of all, and She is the mother of the entire universe." Adi Lila 4.29

Hmmmmm Not sure what to think. I took it once, then went in for my blood tests, which came back worse. Then someone told me thats cuz Rishi is a stimulant. Now, I dont mean a stimulant like tobacco or marijuana. ha No. But that it "stimulates the immune system." Many don't understand this, but when someone has an autoimmune disease (and there are many out there, not just Aids. Even diabetes is an autoimmune disease, as is rheumatioid arthritis, etc.) .... anyway, to stimulate the immune system of someone with an autoimmune diseaes causes it to further attack the part all ready over stimulated. For example, if in the case of diabetes, the body would furthher attack the pancrease if the immune system were stimulated. Balancing herbs are whats needed.

Thakns prabhu, I'll check it out. They are vegetarian. Bud I discovered they use Tulasi in some of their herbal products!

PAMHO. AGTSP. Thank you prabhu. I just d. I thought this was your newsletter? It says "Gopal." /images/graemlins/smile.gif And I thought you posted it once, maybe? Anyway, am just glad to have something to keep me informed ahead of time about Ekadasi. Thanks!

It would not disturb Hare Krishna deovtees in the least. Our scriptures are complete, filled with the Absolute Truth. In other words, our scripture includes the exitence of extra terrestial beings, even if its by other names. So, it would only inspire our spiriutal lives if such evidence were to be discovered by others.

If I had such mystic yogic powers to convert someone with my mere words, YOU'D be a Hare Krishna devotee merely by posting here. LOL Ok, just kidding. :-) We can't convernt anyone. Only their heart can do that. Actually, I never really believed in converting, tho I do believe some people may add on to what they all ready believe. But you may not even like that. Anyway, not to worry. While I can't speak for anyone but myself, my bet is, everyone will be very respectful and your friend will be fine. And people come here to ask questions all the time, so we're use to it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yes, there are many commentators. As long as they are qulified, no problem. I will let Prabhupada explain it, as he explains it best. /images/graemlins/smile.gif --- "Bhagavad-gita is also known as Gitopanisad. It is the essence of Vedic knowledge and one of the most important Upanisads in Vedic literature. Of course there are many commentaries in English on the Bhagavad-gita, and one may question the necessity for another one. This present edition can be explained in the following way. Recently an American lady asked me to recommend an English translation of Bhagavad-gita. Of course in America there are so many editions of Bhagavad-gita available in English, but as far as I have seen, not only in America but also in India, none of them can be strictly said to be authoritative because in almost every one of them the commentator has expressed his own opinions without touching the spirit of Bhagavad-gita as it is. The spirit of Bhagavad-gita is mentioned in Bhagavad-gita itself. It is just like this: If we want to take a particular medicine, then we have to follow the directions written on the label. We cannot take the medicine according to our own whim or the direction of a friend. It must be taken according to the directions on the label or the directions given by a physician. Similarly, Bhagavad-gita should be taken or accepted as it is directed by the speaker Himself. The speaker of Bhagavad-gita is Lord Sri Krsna. He is mentioned on every page of Bhagavad-gita as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Bhagavan. Of course the word bhagavan sometimes refers to any powerful person or any powerful demigod, and certainly here bhagavan designates Lord Sri Krsna as a great personality, but at the same time we should know that Lord Sri Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as is confirmed by all great acaryas (spiritual masters) like Sankaracarya, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka Svami, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and many other authorities of Vedic knowledge in India. The Lord Himself also establishes Himself as the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the Bhagavad-gita, and He is accepted as such in the Brahma-samhita and all the Puranas, especially the Srimad-Bhagavatam, known as the Bhagavata Purana (krsnas tu bhagavan svayam). Therefore we should take Bhagavad-gita as it is directed by the Personality of Godhead Himself." SP's B.Gita Introduction "Yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau. If one has strong faith in the Supreme Personality of Godhead and as much faith in the guru, yatha deve tatha gurau, then the revealed scriptures become manifest. It is not the education. It is not the scholarship. It is faith in Krsna and guru. Therefore Caitanya-caritamrta says guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija. Not by education, not by scholarship, never says. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, guru-krsna-krpaya, by the mercy of guru, by the mercy of Krsna. It is a question of mercy. It is not a question of scholarship or opulence or richness. No. The whole bhakti-marga depends on the mercy of the Lord. So we have to seek the mercy. Athapi te deva padambuja-dvaya-prasada-lesanugrhita eva hi, janati tattvam... Prasada-lesa, lesa means fraction. One who has received a little fraction of mercy of the Supreme, he can understand. Others, na canya eko 'pi ciram vicinvan. Others, they may go on speculating for millions of years. It is not possible to understand. So Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Therefore we are presenting because we are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it was understood by Arjuna. We do not go to Dr. Radhakrishnan, this scholar, that scholar, this rascal, that ra... No. We do not go. That is not our business. That is parampara. So Arjuna here says, bhagavata, "What I heard from that personality, Supreme Personality of Godhead, Bhagavan." Bhagavan means full of six opulences. I've described it many times. So here is the direct hearer, listener. He says bhagavata. How you can say that Krsna is not Bhagavan--ordinary person? How you can say? One who heard the message, he says directly. This is called parampara system. This is called parampara. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. So if we understand Bhagavad-gita, as Krsna..., as Arjuna understood. that is perfect. That is Bhagavad-gita As It Is. And if you try to understand Bhagavad-gita as some rascal commentator says, then you are reading somebody else; rubbish. There's no meaning. You're simply wasting your time. He may be such scholar, such big politician, like this. In our country, big politician, they have commented; big, big yogis, they have commented; big, big scholars they have... They're all useless. Take it: useless. If you read such commentary of Bhagavad-gita, it is simply waste of time. If you actually want to study Bhagavad-gita, then as Arjuna understands. Arjuna directly listened from Krsna. So in Bhagavad-gita Arjuna says, after understanding Bhagavad-gita from Krsna, he said, "You are Parabrahma." Param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan. Bhavan. Bhavan means "Your Lordship.You are Parabrahma, the Supreme Brahma." He's the Supreme Brahma. Brahma means spirit and brahma means the greatest. So he has explicitly explained that spirit soul, we are all spirit soul, every one of us. But He is the supreme spirit soul, param. Param means the supreme. He's not ordinary. So He comes as ordinary, not ordinary, as human being, but He is the supreme human being. That is the difference. Supreme human being. But one who cannot understand, one who thinks, "Oh, Krsna is like us. He has got also two hands, two legs, one head. We have got also. He is like me," he is a mudha, rascal. Therefore it is said in the Bhagavad-gita, avajananti mam mudhah: "These rascal fools, they deride." Manusim tanum as... Param bhavam ajanantah, "They have no knowledge of the param bhavam." So the param bhavam, that is understood by the devotees. That is the difference. Budha bhava-samanvitah, Krsna has said. Budha bhava-samanvitah. Param bhavam, this bhava... Bhava means assimilation--"Oh, Krsna is so great." This is called bhava. That is real understanding, when you understand really this bhava stage. Bhava-bhakti. Bhava-bhakti. Simply engaged in Krsna's service. Param bhavam. Person who has not come to this stage of bhava, he cannot understand Krsna. Param bhavam ajanantah. The bhava stage comes. Everyone can attain that bhava stage. There is process. This process is described by Rupa Gosvami how to come to the bhava stage. Bhava stage means just prior to perfection. One must come to the bhava stage, next stage is perfection. Next stage is full perfection. So how to come to this bhava stage, that is Rupa Gosvami has described, adau sraddha. First of all little faith. Just like many outsider also come here, "What these people are doing, these Krsna consciousness men? So let us see." So sraddha. That is called sraddha. Sraddha, real sraddha means complete faith. That is described by Caitanya-caritamrta. Sraddha-sabde visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya. One who has got this much faith, strong faith, that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, this faith, not flickering, firm faith, "Yes, Krsna is the Supreme Personality..." That is called sraddha. That is beginning of sraddha. If you have got still doubt, then you have not come to the stage of sraddha even. Superfluous. You may come, but when you actually believe that "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and if I engage myself in Krsna's service, I am perfect"--two things--that is sraddha. And the more you increase this sraddha you become advanced. The beginning is this sraddha. Adau sraddha. So how this sraddha, this faith can be increased? Sadhu-sanga. If you keep yourself associated with the devotees, then this sraddha can be increased. If you simply believe, "Yes, Krsna is Supreme Personality," but you do not live with the sadhus or devotee, then it will drop. It will finish. So just to keep the standard, the temperature right, you must keep always yourself warm. " SP lecture, SB 1. 15.30, LA Ca., Dec 8, 73

I meant your initiated name.

"I really don't know what you mean by people saying we can't develop love of God. What… outside of ISKCON?" Inside. "Or without strictness?" Due to fanaticism. "Then you talk about strictness or austerity making one cold." Right. When one focuses ONLY on austerity and strictness, but shuts down the heart. Especially when they add to it a so called philosophy to make it acceptable and even the Krishna c. thing to do so (in their mind). "It can happen. (That's the nature of austerity.)" Proper austerity, performed with the right type of austerity in accordance what Prabhupada wanted for us, will soften our heart. "This is a big subject and I see no need to go into it. But I know what you're talking about." Thanks. "In most cases, I think people are better off hearing directly from Prabhupada." Agreed. ME: Maybe its a shot in the dark, maybe it wont even work, but if we do it then at least we can say we tried. And it works for us because we are never the looser when we preach. YOU: I think this was unnecessary. It certainly doesn't fit me as a reply. I haven't a clue why you took this personally and thought it was an insult. I did not intend it that way at all. Others read these message boards too, and so if I can answer a question before asked, even a question I may ask myself, that is preaching. I suspect you are a very sensitive person. Well, I am too. lol Join the crowd. :-) "You are welcome to make your armchair speculations about me. But don't assume to much. It could be embarrassing." Ditto. ME:… but don't know how? Join the club. ha But at least I'm trying. We each have to try. If we ALL tried, it COULD happen." YOU: Well what makes you think I don't know how? I don't have my exact words in front of me, but I do remember I was trying to figure out why you were posting with complaints rather than adding some sublime quotes by Prabhupada on love of God. The best I could come up with is what I 'suggested.' I have no problem being wrong, so please share with us why you rather post complaints then verses in a thread specific on love of Krishna. If it is not due to not knowing how to fix the movement, and if you know how, I would like to hear your solution. "Many of us know how. "We know the process." The point wasn't about the process, but ego's, politics, that the house crumbled, and how to fix THAT. "But all the efforts seem individual for the most part" Ummmm Yeah. Whats your lastest preaching engagement? :-) "and have little overall effect. " Nevertheless, this is not about all or none. We simply need is to save one person. Prabhupada felt if he saved even one, they became shining like the Moon. Jayananda comes to mind. And again, even if we do not save anyone, by preaching we become purified. "Then there is the question of potency and qualifications." The potency and qualification doesn't come from us, but from Prabhupada. Its not that first we have to be 100% pure, but rather we get purifed through preaching or sharing Krishna with others. "Really, after 30 years of yoga and the crumbling of Prabhupada's home, we are kidding ourselves. I am also assuming the responsibility and admitting it… things are not well with our house and home. And what makes a home? What we do in it. We have problems!" And there are threads to talk about that. Another one of our problems is we don't know how to be positive and accept the good that IS there. "One of the problems we have is the enthusiasm to spread this Krsna Consciousness. Be tender and sweet if you want, but spread the knowledge to someone outside the club (philosophically speaking… not saying you aren't)." Thanks, because I am. "But let's be real about our mission, not just our feelings. Let's be real and confront this all-important aspect of our devotional lives." I humbly suggest you read some past threads not only from myself, but many others here, before you know who is just speaking on feelings or sentiment and who is not, and who is following properly and who is not, so on and so forth. There are many wonderful devotees here, and even, we dont always agree, but we have learned how to respect each others opinoin. We can waste a lot of time in sepculative debates, or we can just start sharing something of Krishna, anything.

"ta dd, I am curious are you lotusIndia by any chance on any other forum in the past? May be it is a hipi forum?. If not, then I apologize for asking.' --- Sorry prabhu, tho no apology necessary. Devotees can be found all over. And who are you? You don't sign your posts. :-)

"The members of this Society must always remember that if they stick to the regulative principles and preach sincerely according to the instructions of the acaryas, surely they will have the profound blessings of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and their preaching work will be successful everywhere throughout the world." Adi 7.171 "So to develop attraction for Krishna is not difficult, you simply have to hear about Krishna, his activities, his name, his form and his teaching in Bhagavad-gita. Naturally you will develop love for Krishna, because we are all part and parcel of Krishna. The beginning proscess is to Chant Hare Krishna, follow the four regulative principles and associate with devotees, and take Prasadam of Krishna. I think you are now living in the temple of Krishna, so these things will be very easy for you to practice." SP letter to Bhakta Stephen Knapp, Bombay, Dec 18, 75 "Your question, "if in the Vaikunthas ecstatic love between Lord Narayana and His devotees and Lord Krishna Consciousness and His devotees on Krishna Loka is qualitatively the same, then what is the advantage of following the path of Krishna Consciousness, whose philosophy austerity is difficult to understand?" Krishna Consciousness philosophy includes the whole Vaisnava philosophy. When we speak Krishna, the very Word means, Rama, Nrsimha, Varaha, and all other similar expansions and incarnations. So Krishna Consciousness includes Vaikuntha consciousness, but Vaikuntha consciousness does not include Krishna Consciousness. Those who are strictly following the rules and regulations of Vaisnava activities, they are promoted to Vaikuntha lokas. But those who have developed a spontaneous love for Krishna, they are promoted to the Krishna Loka. Therefore, although Krishna Consciousness includes Vaikuntha consciousness, pure Krishna Consciousness is spontaneous love for Krishna without any regulative principles. The idea can be explained that a young boy or a young girl are spontaneously attracted, without following any regulative principles previously. When one develops such spontaneous love for God, that is called pure Krishna Consciousness. In our conditioned life, we have forgotten our relationship with God, but by regulative principles, we can make alert the inert activities. Just like a rheumatic crippled man is gradually elevated by some bodily exercises. Similarly, the regulative principles are to make us habituated to our dormant service attitude, but when that is mature, it becomes spontaneous, and that is pure Krishna Consciousness. And such highly elevated Consciousness makes one eligible to enter into the Krishna Loka. The living example for much spontaneous love are exhibited by the Gopis and inhabitants of Vrindaban. We can learn this from Srimad-Bhagavatam how much they love Krishna spontaneously. Your question, "what is the relationship of sweethearts in Vaikuntha to each other and to Lord Narayana? Is conjugal love, parental affection, and unalloyed friendship there in the Vaikunthas?" No. In Vaikuntha there are two kinds of transcendental mellows, dasya and the lower half of sakya rasa. The lower half of sakhya means friendship in adoration. And the higher half of sakhya rasa is friendship on equal level. So in Vrindaban the reciprocation of transcendental humor is higher than in Vaikuntha. It is there more free and spontaneous without any restriction arranged by yogamaya principle." SP letter to Rupanuga, Montreal, July 3, 1968

Guestji, I do not know your past or what your personal experiences were/are. I only know mine. I have so often heard iskcon devotees say we can't develop love of God, and they got lost in concepts of strictness, which would have been fine, but it was devoid of being put to use to help develop that love of God/Krishna. It made so many devotees more hard hearted and cold, which is contrary to Personalism. It resulted in more activities than I wish to put here. I joined in 74, and I too have witnessed the crumbling of Prabhupada's house (ISKCON). If and when I think of it, I become either angry, or depressed. And most certainaly it (the crumbling ISKCON) happened due to huge egos. Its not that I put up a post about love because I have my head in the sand, but quite the opposite. I feel if we start to share Prabhupada's true teachings, at least its a chance to turn things around. Maybe its a shot in the dark, maybe it wont even work, but if we do it then at least we can say we tried. And it works for us because we are never the looser when we preach. The word 'preaching' has turned into meaning "shove it down their throats, and dont talk about anything sweet, only strict." I do not find that to be the way Prabhupada used the word. Its more about sharing Krishna's sweetness, as Rupa Goswami explains, to help people develop at least shadow attachement to Krishna. Rules and regs must be there too. But they exist to facilitate our spiritual advancement toward Krishna. I agree though, that many do not understand what their responsibilities are. But even with that, the way to get it cleared up is to preach. Yes, devotees talk to much, and I am no exception. I feel we talk too much because we were trained to be preachers, but now that energy is not put to proper use, so it has to come out somewhere. It comes out, sometimes, in all the wrong places. The problem isn't we talk too much, its WHAT we talk about too much (maya nonsense). And I have to throw in, not talking is a guy thing. Women talk and that's ok. Yes, if we understand, we will practice, & the more we practice, the more we'll understand; a drowning man can't save another drowning man. And of course Krishna conscoiusness is for everyone, & love is not the same as selfishness. I guess what I don't understand is how you can assume everyone who posts (or my post) are devotees who are not trying to understand, not practicing, etc. Or else if this is how you feel, why don't you preach to them in a tangible way? Immediate chastizement usually turns them off. So to nicely preach, IMHO, would be where the mercy is - when we share Prabhupada's words with many, something the net facilitates. It sounds like maybe you don't live near devotee association and are missing it? Or would like to turn the movement around to the way it was back in the day, but don't know how? Join the club. ha But at least I'm trying. We each have to try. If we ALL tried, it COULD happen.

I read over and over a misunderstanding, so I'd like to clear it up. It is not that because we believe in Srila Prabhupada we therefore think there is no other pure devotee somewhere walking this earth planet. That is not our overall belief system in the least. There can be many pure Vaisnava's on the planet, tons. With that said however, once a person finds such a pure soul, they don't waste time looking for another and another and yet another pure deovtee to learn from. They instead are simply thankful they found even one and therefore surrender unto him, not promoting other gurus even tho they may be pure, but placing their focus on the one Krishna sent their way. Simultaneously, for one to be a bonafide guru they must possess all scriptural qualities of one who fits in that category and not simply because they wrote their own translation of various Sanskrit literatures. Thanks.