brajeshwara das

So much nectar in this thread that started with such meager beginnings. All Glories to all servitors of the Lord!

I an attempt to get the discussions here about what some lovingly call 'DVD' on some higher ground I thought a discussion about what Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada's vision for the Varnashrama College would be should prove productive. Please keep this to the Colleges only (not greater ISKCON or mainland China etc) and post any quotes you have regarding how these should be set up. My desire here is for this thread to be in service to Srila Swami Maharaj, so please let's not bicker. Hare Krishna

Proxy. You are not a ksatriya. Say it; "I am not a ksatriya" now take a deep breath...

This is in no way quoting Srila Swami Maharaj.

No one should ever enjoy an attack on a Vaisnava

Ah, I never said Srila Swami Maharaj said that, it is the name of this thread, started by your buddy Bhakti Devarsi.

That's great! Thanks for posting that, I especially liked 'bad cow pun'

Ah, but try and see that I have no interest in proving you wrong. If you have the evidence that clearly, without a doubt states that eating meat as an initiated disciple is bona fide then present it. I am willing to accept it, I have no sentimental feeling against killing, my body is a battlefield as I type this, but I neither slay nor am slain. That isn't the point. The question about if the Acharya intends his disciples to eat meat based on the conversation you quoted from 74, that is the question. I haven't seen enough to suggest that it is the case. Preliminary help extends how long? 30 years into your practicing life? Is this really what he wanted or is it that you are too charmed with the thought of being a mighty king, a ksatriya? He said if they are intelligent they will realize it isn't worth it. Please with an open heart consider this.

I don't know what this may have to do with the subject at hand, but here you go. Sorry some of us work and can't post on demand: Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 4.17.25 amusham kshut-paritanam artanam paridevitam samayishyami mad-banair bhinnayas tava medasa SYNONYMS amusham -- of all of them; kshut-paritanam -- suffering from hunger; artanam -- of the distressed; paridevitam -- the lamentation; samayishyamiI shall pacify; mat-banaih -- by my arrows; bhinnayah -- being cut totava -- of you; medasa -- by the flesh. TRANSLATION Now, with the help of my arrows, I shall cut you -- pieces; to pieces and with your flesh satisfy the hunger-stricken citizens, who are now crying for want of grains. Thus I shall satisfy the crying citizens of my kingdom. PURPORT Here we find some indication of how the government can arrange for the eating of cow flesh. It is here indicated that in a rare circumstance when there is no supply of grains, the government may sanction the eating of meat. However, when there is sufficient food, the government should not allow the eating of cow's flesh just to satisfy the fastidious tongue. In other words, in rare circumstances, when people are suffering for want of grains, meat-eating or flesh-eating can be allowed, but not otherwise. The maintenance of slaughterhouses for the satisfaction of the tongue and the killing of animals unnecessarily should never be sanctioned by a government. As described in a previous verse, cows and other animals should be given sufficient grass to eat. If despite a sufficient supply of grass a cow does not supply milk, and if there is an acute shortage of food, the dried-up cow may be utilized to feed the hungry masses of people. According to the law of necessity, first of all human society must try to produce food grains and vegetables, but if they fail in this, they can indulge in flesh-eating. Otherwise not. As human society is presently structured, there is sufficient production of grains all over the world. Therefore the opening of slaughterhouses cannot be supported. In some nations there is so much surplus grain that sometimes extra grain is thrown into the sea, and sometimes the government forbids further production of grain. The conclusion is that the earth produces sufficient grain to feed the entire population, but the distribution of this grain is restricted due to trade regulations and a desire for profit. Consequently in some places there is scarcity of grain and in others profuse production. If there were one government on the surface of the earth to handle the distribution of grain, there would be no question of scarcity, no necessity to open slaughterhouses, and no need to present false theories about over-population. Please don't turn this into some license to eat cows in ashrams. This is the 108th post in this topic BTW.

If you point at the sun a thousand times and say it is an orange, should I believe you? Enough is enough, enjoy your meat eating. Hari Bolo.

Post where Srila Swami Maharaj says to eat meat in his centers, among his people.

It was the opinion of Srila Swami Maharaj as well. To be of some value? Srila Swami Maharaj said specifically that Srila Sridhar Maharaj was Om Vishnupada, his siksa guru, "so what to speak of the benefit that others can have from his association." He wanted to bring others to Srila Sridhar Maharaj: "Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur told me that Sridhar Maharaj is one of the finest preachers of Krishna consciousness in the world, so I wanted to take him everywhere. This was my earnest desire. But since he could not go around the world and preach, at least the people of the world should come to hear from him." Again: "So if one is actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, or instructing spiritual master, I can refer him to one who is the most competent of all my Godbrothers."Sridhar Maharaj is a pure devotee per Srila Swami Maharaj, your opinion doesn't matter: "He was always my good advisor, and I took his advice very seriously because from the very beginning I knew that he was a pure devotee of Krishna. So, I wanted to associate with him. Krishna and Prabhupad, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, liked him to prepare me. Our relationship is very intimate." You try to minimize Guru here, why? Whether the Guru is in a thatched hut on the banks of the Ganga with one disciple or running a worldwide mission, if he is genuine it is Krishna Himself that is empowering him. This is why I said to be careful not to cause offense to Guru Tatva, and why I posted the quote of Srila Swami Maharaj. Not to bring anyone to SCSMath but to eradicate the belief that there is one Guru of highest quality and all other manifestations of Guru are lesser. A true manifestation of Guru is a manifestation of Krishna, you really want to minimize Him? I figured that you guys say to follow Srila Swami Maharaj's instructions 'black and white' but really you cherry pick, you add your emphasis for what is important to your agenda and minimize his words in other places. Was he insincere when speaking of Srila Sridhar Maharaj above? Is that what you are saying? If Srila Swami Maharaj really intends for some disciples to eat meat I have absolutely no issue with that, but I don't think it is conclusive. One place it is mentioned and not specific to initiated disciples, the public was what was being discussed. If it really was his intention and as you say he spoke of it constantly for 4 years, surely you have more proof?

Did Bhakta Devarsi get banned and that is my he is posting under so many Guest names? Just curious.

The order for initiated disciples to engage in eating meat is not clear, I am not contradicting Srila Swami MAharaj at all, but asking for more proof that this is his intention. This is very serious, you are asking people to follow based on an assumption of what he meant. If I have commited any offense to Srila Swami Maharaj I sincerely request his forgiveness, but that I disagree with his disciples on this point is no offense to him.

Actually, on second thought it is better to be careful with your pearls.

We are very fortunate to hear His Divine Grace, Om Visnupad Paramahamsa Parivrajak Acharya Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaj. By age and by experience, in both ways, he is senior to me. I was fortunate to have his association since a long time, since perhaps 1930. At that time he had not accepted sannyas, but had just left home. He went to preach in Allahabad, and on that auspicious occasion we were connected. Sridhar Maharaj lived in my house for many years, so naturally we had very intimate talks. He has such high realizations of Krishna that one would faint to hear them. He was always my good advisor, and I took his advice very seriously because from the very beginning I knew that he was a pure devotee of Krishna. So, I wanted to associate with him. Krishna and Prabhupad, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, liked him to prepare me. Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of our spiritual master’s institution I wanted to organize another institution making Sridhar Maharaj the head. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur told me that Sridhar Maharaj is one of the finest preachers of Krishna consciousness in the world, so I wanted to take him everywhere. This was my earnest desire. But since he could not go around the world and preach, at least the people of the world should come to hear from him. For spiritual advancement of life we must go to someone who is actually practicing spiritual life. So if one is actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, or instructing spiritual master, I can refer him to one who is the most competent of all my Godbrothers. This is B.R. Sridhar Maharaj. I consider Sridhar Maharaj to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that others can have from his association. ~ Srila Swami Maharaj

ok, you should be very careful not to cause offense to Guru Tatva. I think this is my cue to avoid your association. Hare Krishna Prabhu. I wish the best for you always.

Srila Swami Maharaj asked his disciples to seek guidance from Srila Sridhar Maharaj, who he even called Siksa Guru. I am not saying he made a mistake in his criticisms of his Godbrothers, but that he had a purpose for saying what he said about his Godbrothers. My understanding it was to keep ISKCON as an organization focussed, if some disciples thought other Gurus may have something more they may have left Srila Swami Maharaj and damaged the mission. I don't think it was just a formality to apologize. He had done the needful in his comments and my understanding is Srila Sridhar Maharaj knew this.

The following is the only place I have seen quoted that Srila Swami Maharaj is saying to eat meat: I don't see that he is talking about initiated disciples here. You may read this into it, go ahead. It isn't clear to me. That the Varnashrama system would be part of the general ISKCON movement I also don't contest, just I see a distinction from the Varnashrama College open to the general public and initiated ISKCON devotees, and the role any meat eating may have. Of course something open to the general public may not follow the same rules as a a temple. Give me more evidence that initiated disciples can eat meat. It has to be a specific reference, because I believe he was making a distinction. Also please don't use Bhima as an example for the common man. "Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others." He was an exception.

Safe position as in my interpretation of the Acharya's order, not in my actual qualifications or realizations. I'm a fallen soul, there is no denying that.

I have read the quotes and I am not refuting Srila Swami Maharaj but your interpretation. It surely is with my own interpretation but we are both allowed. I believe I have shown flexibility in my position and have adjusted accordingly, I just don't reach the same conclusions as you.

It is my understanding he appologized to his godbrothers before leaving this plane. It was for you he gave this so your society wouldn't disintegrate as all your godbrothers sought out someone else as Guru. That is my understanding anyway. This isn't a topic I have spent any time studding so I frankly don't know. But anyone thinking the mercy of the Lord is limited should be careful.

I'm not condoning elitism, and we all definitely make mistakes. Just it still isn't clear a devotee acting in the position of a sudra does all the activities of a sudra. Someone needs to dig a ditch for Gurudeva, or paint the temple, etc. Does someone need to eat a goat? Is that service? They aren't qualified to do brahman service maybe, but this doesn't naturally lead that they are so unqualified they can't follow the regulative principles. Until you are ready to follow the principles, come to the temple, take prasadam, chant Hare Krishna, do service, play your role in the society. That is wonderful. When you are ready for the land of dedication, take the vows, follow strictly whatever you capacity. No problem.

Wow, you are really a Vaisnava? Srila Bhakti Sifddhanta Saraswati looked all over Vrndavan but couldn't find one Vaisnava, but here you are on the forum! Nice Kust kidding, thanks for making me think of that story. I know the point was different and I'm sure you are an exhalted devotee. I'm just an ass, don't mind me. Anyhow, If we take initiation we understand we are entering into the world of bhakti and that that transcends all mundane material roles. We are acting as a guard because the temple needs to be guarded. We are doing the service required of us. We don't open a factory, build an army or do any manner of things just because we are playing a role in a varna. Service descends, we don't make it up. The varnas should serve bhakti clearly, we don't just maintain the activities of the varnas for their own sake. Until I see that the acharya says something clearly to the effect 'You, initiated disciple, go out and kill and animal and eat its flesh' I will take the safe position and assume the Acharya's order that initiated disciples follow the four regulative principles trumps everything else.