Murali_Mohan_das

Great quote!!!

Very few would have the courage to question that Srila Prabhupad was qualified to give everything. Param-Gurudev has recognized him as shaktyavesha (empowered) avatar of Sri Nityananda Prabhu.

Now, just how many times is it recorded that Srila Prabhupad spoke about Rasa Lila with his disciples in great detail? Did he feel we (disciples, grand-disciples, God-nephews and God-nieces) were ready to hear this?

What was Srila Prabhupada's reaction when he heard about the "Gopi Bhava Club"?

Srila Sridhar Maharaj, in the quote preceeding this post, makes clear what the mood of the Vaishnava is. The Vaishnava sees himself as unqualified.

Narration of the Rasa Lila Dance

Krishna Book ACBSP

…Sukadeva Gosvami concludes this episode of rasa-lila by pointing out that if a person hears from the right source of the pastimes of Krsna, who is Visnu Himself, and the gopis, who are expansions of His energy, then he will be relieved from the most dangerous type of disease, namely lust. If one actually hears rasa-lila, he will become completely freed from the lusty desire of sex life and elevated to the highest level of spiritual understanding. Generally, because they hear from Mayavadis and they themselves are Mayavadis, people become more and more implicated in sex life. The conditioned soul should hear the rasa-lila dance from an authorized spiritual master and be trained by him so that he can understand the whole situation; thus one can be elevated to the highest standard of spiritual life, otherwise one will be implicated. Material lust is a kind of heart disease, and to cure the material heart disease of the conditioned soul, it is recommended that one should hear, but not from the impersonalist rascals. If one hears from the right sources with right understanding, then his situation will be different.

Sukadeva Gosvami has used the word sraddhanvita for one who is trained in the spiritual life. Sraddha, or faith, is the beginning. One who has developed his faith in Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supreme Spirit Soul, can both describe and hear. Sukadeva also uses the word anusrnuyat. One must hear from disciplic succession. Anu means following, and anu means always. So one must always follow the disciplic succession and not hear from any stray professional reciter, Mayavadi or ordinary man. Anusrnuyat means that one must hear from an authorized person who is in the disciplic succession and is always engaged in Krsna consciousness. When a person wants to hear in this way, then the effect will be sure. By hearing rasa-lila, one will be elevated to the highest position of spiritual life.

Sukadeva Gosvami uses two specific words, bhaktim and param. Bhaktim param means execution of devotional service above the neophyte stage. Those who are simply attracted to temple worship but do not know the philosophy of bhakti are in the neophyte stage. That sort of bhakti is not the perfectional stage. The perfectional stage of bhakti, or devotional service, is completely free from material contamination. The most dangerous aspect of contamination is lust or sex life. Bhaktim param devotional service is so potent that the more one advances in this line, the more he loses his attraction for material life. One who is actually deriving benefit from hearing rasa-lila dance surely achieves the transcendental position. He surely loses all traces of lust in his heart.

Here's the quote form Prapannam Jivanamritam I promised. For those familiar with my presence in this forum know that I am not inclined to quote scripture, but, as I was reading this to my children at bed time last night, I was struck by how appropriate this passage is to this line of enquiry.

From Sri Sri Prapanna Jivanamrita by Srila B.R. Sridhar Dev-Goswami (Forward, pg. xxii-xxiii): http://scsmath.net/math/docs/Prapanna-Jivanamritam.pdf

Sri Jiva Goswami has stated that of the six symptoms of surrender, to embrace the guardianship of the Lord (goptrtve varanam) is central, since total surrender expresses the same ideal. The remaining five symptoms of accepting the favourable, rejecting the unfavourable, faith in the Lord's protection, full self-surrender, and humility, are natural contributing associate-servitors to the ideal (angangi-bhedena sad-vidha; tatra 'goptrtve varanam' evangi, saranagati-sabdenaikarthyat; anyani tv angani tat parikaratvat--Bhakti-sandharbha, 236).

 

Surrender is the fountain of the world of devotion. It is the very life and essence. One cannot enter into that domain without surrender. It must be present in every form of service, and to attempt divine service without it will be mere imitation of a lifeless formality. The entire gist of the Vedic instruction is to dedicate oneself to the service of the Lord. In his commentary of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Sri Sridhara Swamipada has stated that only if the practices of devotion are initially offered to the Supreme Lord can they be recognized as devotion. To attempt to execute them and subsequently offer them cannot be pre devotion (iti nava laksanani yasyah sa, adhitena ced bhagavati vishnau bhaktih kriyate, sa carpitaiva sati yadi kriyeta, na tu drita sati pascad arpyeta.) Without surrender, the activity will be adulterated with exploitation, renunciation, artificial meditation (karmma, jnana, yoga), and so on.

By constitution, the soul is the Lord's servant, and the Lord has the right to make or marr, to do anything according to His sweet will. If accepting this truth we undertake the devotional practices such as hearing, chanting, remembering, and worshipping, only then will our activity be devotional. Only the activity of the self-dedicated soul can be devotion. Sincere prayer will help us to seek the help of the Lord, but, again, prayer in the spirit of surrender can alone reach Him (Saranagati, 1.5). The path of devotion entails increasing our negative status to invite the positive to descend and embrace us: 'I am very low, and You are so high. You can purify me, take me and utilize me for Your higher purpose. Be pleased. Otherwise I am helpless, neglected.' It is impossible to take Him captive in the cage of our knowledge. Only the way of devotion can help us. In every respect He is high, great, and infinite--and we aer similarly small. His mercy--His sympathy, love, and grace, are the only medium through which we can come together. And good faith is autonomous in that sweet land which is so high that we will earnestly hope and pray for the association of the higher existence as His slave; and that also will be our happy prospect fo the future.

 

Krsna is not within our purview, and thus we are always recommended by Scriptures and saints to approach the bona fide Divine Master and Vaisnavas. To satisfy the Supreme Lord, the criterion is to satisfy our Gurudeva; if Gurudeva is dissatisfied with us, the Lord is surely dissatisfied. An analogy has been cited in the Scriptures, where the Lord is compared to the sun, the Guru to a pond, and the disciple to a lotus flower. If the pond withdraws, the very sun will scorch and dry up the lotus--and the lotus will be cheered by the sun as long as the water supports and surrounds it.

So, whatever you do, don't get scorched by the sun. Stay at the feet of Gurudev!!!

Quote from Anadi Prabhu from a thread that has been closed (since it had gone off-topic, I assume).

You also wrote:

 

Simply to go on with the same procedure: artificially jump to the tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam and after 3 years again fall back into maya.

Reply:

 

What about preaching for 30 years

we are not this body and

we should implement varnashrama dharma?

and not dare to read about the Radha-Krisna lila, because guru says is too high, and still singing jaya Radhe jaya Krishna, without understanding what one is trying to glorify.

I don’t think this is very useful for bhakti.

Bhakti is very individual, and bhaktas have different speeds of bhajan.

What about chanting the Mahamantra ("Hare Krishna") for 30 years without understanding the full significance of it (and, of course, devising mundane interpretations of it is one of the 10 Offenses to the Holy Name)? Is that also "not very useful for Bhakti"?

Do you propose that, in order to derive benefit from the medicine prescribed by the doctor that we must have full knowledge of all the biological processes involved the application of the medicine?

Surely not!!! We derive benefit from chanting "Jaya Radhe Jaya Krisna" or Mahamantra regardless of our mood or understanding (though, of course, the degree of benefit received is closely tied to the mood in which chanting occurs).

Better to have *no* understanding than a *false* or poisonous understanding, no?

While you may make so many scriptural quotes, Anadi-ji, in support of reading the intimate pastimes of Sri Sri Radha Krishna, on this topic, Param-Gurudev, Srila Sridhar Maharaj has quoted the Bible: Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

So, I certainly cannot tell you whether you were qualified to hear these pastimes from Sripad Bhaktivendanta Narayan Maharaj, or if he is qualified to recite these pastimes to you, but the fact (as related by you) that he no longer is blessing the eager in such a manner ought to be revelatory to you if Sripad Narayan Maharaj is Guru to you.

There are some very relavant quotes from Param-Gurudeva's Sri Sri Prapanna-Jivanamritam which shed light on the other quotes you furnished in the previous thread. I cannot find a text version of the book online (only PDF with images), so I hope to transcribe those later for our benefit.

For now, I leave you with a relevant quote from the holy Monty Python's Meaning of Life:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085959/quotes

Humphrey: So, just listen. Now, did I or did I not... do... vaginal... juices?

Pupils: Mmm. Mmm. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Humphrey: Name two ways of getting them flowing, Watson.

Watson: R - rubbing the clitoris, sir?

Humphrey: What's wrong with a kiss, boy? Hmm? Why not start her off with a nice kiss? You don't have to go leaping straight for the clitoris like a bull at a gate. Give her a kiss, boy.

Wymer: Suck the nipple, sir?

Humphrey: Good. Good. Well done, Wymer.

Pupil: Uh, stroking the thighs, sir.

Humphrey: Yes. Yes, I suppose so. Hmm?

Pupil: Oh, sir. Biting the neck.

Humphrey: Yes. Good. Nibbling the earlobe, uhh, kneading the buttocks, and so on and so forth. So, we have all these possibilities before we stampede towards the clitoris, Watson.

Watson: Yes, sir. Sorry, sir.

Obviously, Yadu-ji had a different relationship with Radha Kund Prabhu, but this article describes the same often outrageous devotee on whom I meditate:

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-07/editorials1433.htm

How wonderful to read the word of Sripad Radha Kund Prabhu!!

I consider Radha Kund to be my uncle as he is a dear friend of my father's.

How I wish I could recall specific pastimes of his, but at the moment, nothing remarkable comes to mind.

What *is* remarkable is the nature of Radha Kund Prabhu. Whenever I had the fortune of his association, I was struck by his enthusiasm, genuine humility, and dedication to his Gurudev.

He was utterly down-to-earth while maintaining Vaishnava ideals (simple living, high-thinking). I saw him only encouraging other devotees, and never frying.

My prayer this day is to once more have the association of that great Vaishnava!!

Is KC the ultimate non-material science that brings one to go beyond material sentimental reasoning to the platform of the soul proper ,with real rasa experiences???

I'd answer the question with a "yes".

However, whether KC is counter-intuitive is another question. Intuition is not strictly-inborn. Perhaps we have a "default" intuition, but, intuition is and can be developed in a similar manner as are muscles.

If we study mathematics, we will develop mathematical intuition. If we study KC, we will develop KC intuition.

That said, while the science of KC is, indeed, very scientific, wouldn't you agree there is no requirement on the Lord to act according any science whatsoever?

You say "all scriptures lead to the same goal" and then you also interpret Chirstianity to be supporting vegeterian views. I am not saying you are wrong in your interpretation of the Christian scriptures. However your interpretation definitely disagrees with 99.99% of Christians' interpretation of these scriptures.

Seventh Day Adventists, of whom there are over 14 million according to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church

interpret Christianity to support vegetarian views. From the passage bellow, you can see that so do the Mormons (we have a Mormon running for President at the moment), of whom there are about 13 million.

Additionally, the Catholic (1.1 billion) and Orthodox (220-300 million) branches of Christianity obviously see vegetarianism as a virtue given the Lenten fast from meat (yes, fish on Fridays, and Catholics don't fast from meat for Lent anymore, but you get the idea).

So, figuring 2.1 billion Christians worldwide, the Mormons and Adventists make up close to 1.3% and your math is way off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism

The Seventh-day Adventists present a health message that recommends vegetarianism and expects abstinence from pork, shellfish and other foods proscribed as "unclean" in Leviticus.

The Word of Wisdom is a dietary law given to adherents of the Latter Day Saint movement (also known as Mormonism) which says that meat and fowl "are to be used sparingly; And ... that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." Not given as advice, this commandment is reiterated in the same section, "And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger."<sup id="_ref-0" class="reference">[1]</sup> (See also animals in the LDS Church).

All Eastern Orthodox Church monastics also refrain completely from meat, and many abstain from dairy and seafood. Eastern Orthodox Christians, laity and monastics, abstain from animal products on Wednesdays and Fridays, and during Lent and Advent. This is not for environmental or animal welfare reasons, but for spiritual reasons. There is a concept that especially meat can induce unwanted "passion," the disposition to sin.

Some Charismatics believe raw veganism was the original diet of humankind in the form of Adam and Eve, and if they are ever to return to an Eden-like paradise then they will have to return to a similar diet (see Hallelujah diet). A "diet of Paradise" doctrine also appears in Orthodox Christianity [1].

In some Christian communities fasting, for example during Lent, resembles a kind of vegetarianism since meat and dairy products are forbidden. For some groups, seafood is permitted during these periods of fasting. A basic difference to other forms of vegetarianism is that Lent has spiritual connotation, not environmental or animal welfare reasons. Also, abstaining from meat and dairy products during Lent is intended to be temporary, lasting only until the season is over, not a permanent way of life.

Now, re-reading your quote, Anadi-ji, I am *most* certain that Goswami is *not* talking about me!!

He mentions practicing Raganuga-Bhakti as an example to others. If there is one thing of which I'm certain, it's that I am no example for anyone.

See, everything harmonized without having to send off a concerned e-mail to Gurudev!

Dear Anadi Prabhu,

 

My last reply was written as you were posting the following, in which, Jiva Goswami certainly *seems* to be encouraging someone (is it me?) to engage in raganuga. Not being familiar with that scripture, I do not know the context--is the author speaking to a specific audience (like a fellow Goswami) or speaking generally? I recently saw mention of a book written by one of the Goswamis specifically for another. Do *I* have entrance into that book on my own?

 

In any case, this perfectly illustrates my need for the guidance and instruction of my Gurudev. He is able to harmonize that which may perplex me.

 

Gauranga!!

Dear Anadi Prabhu,

My last reply was written as you were posting the following, in which, Jiva Goswami certainly *seems* to be encouraging someone (is it me?) to engage in raganuga. Not being familiar with that scripture, I do not know the context--is the author speaking to a specific audience (like a fellow Goswami) or speaking generally? I recently saw mention of a book written by one of the Goswamis specifically for another. Do *I* have entrance into that book on my own?

In any case, this perfectly illustrates my need for the guidance and instruction of my Gurudev. He is able to harmonize that which may perplex me.

Gauranga!!

ajAta-tAdRza-rucinA tu sad-vizeSAdara-mAtrAdRtA rAgAnugApi vaidhI-saMvalitaivAnuSTheyA | tathA loka-saMgrahArthaM pratiSThitena jAta-tAdRza-rucinA ca | atra mizratve ca yathA-yogyaM rAgAnugayaikI kRtyaiva vaidhI kartavyA ||

(Bhakti-sandarbha 312)

“Those in whom such taste (ruci for raga marga) has not awakened, but who have a special interest for it, should engage in a mixture of raganuga and vaidhi.

For the sake of establishing an example for the people of the world, the one in whom such ruci has awakened will do the same.

Therefore, as appropriate, raganuga should be performed together with vaidhi.”

Dear Murali Mohan dasa-ji dandavats,

 

You aksed me:

 

Anadi Prabhu, can you provide shastric evidence (pardon me if you have already done so and I missed it) that traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta disagrees that Raganuga comes spontaneously after faithfully following vaidhi?

Here they are some shastric evidence:

 

The practice of devotion is divided into two distinct paths.

{Quotes ommitted}

“The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement in these two forms of practice certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”

Thank you, Dear Anadi Prabhu, for providing those illustrative quotes. However, if you re-read my question, it is not answered in any of those quotes. The fact that they are distinct and awaken distinct bhava, is not relevant. That is not under question.

I asked for scriptural verification from you that my Gurudev is somehow misleading me when instructing to faithfully follow the path of vidhi marg with the faith that, at a time of the Lord's sweet choosing, feelings of spontaneous devotion will arise in my heart.

Your lovely quotes do not in any way contradict Gurudev.

1. Go back to the original Hebrew text. The word does not mean kill, but murder. You will see this reflecting soon in English translations. It is probably already out in some international translations.

Ah! If only we *could* go back to the original Hebrew text. How many times has it been copied, miscopied, edited, etc.?

Vaishnavism teaches that, in this material world, even Divine teachings, over time will become corrupted, and that the Lord Himself will descend to set things straight. This is how the Vaishnavas view Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who appeared 500 or so years ago.

Regardless of that, and regardless of the (US) legal definition of murder, *I* most certainly consider killing an innocent cow for food to be murder!!! I imagine there are many who would agree.

That said, under the wider umbrella of "Hinduism", there is even accomodation for slaughter of animals. While it is said that Krishna will not accept offerings of meat, Goddess Durga (another aspect of the One God) *will* accept such offerings from her servants [though cow-slaughter is generally not accepted by any Hindu].

My Gurudev even once joked: If you must take whisky, at least offer it to Durga first.

So, to the Vaishnava, God is all-accomodating and all-merciful (even when He is killing "demons"). Many of us who are familiar with various religious traditions (I went to a Catholic High School and sang in the choir) see in the Gaudiya Vaishnava conception the most profound expression of the Love and Mercy of the Lord.

Hope this helps!! I'm off into the surreal world.

 

O yee of little faith!!!! This is blaspheme, yes blaspheme, I say!

I'm confused here. Are you saying "this is blasphemy", or are you saying "yes, blaspheme, I say" as in "go ahead and blaspheme some more"?

Interesting views, it is sinful to eat animals, but yet animals eat other animals all the time so are they also sinners? Can anyone here prove the idea of being reborn as a animal? Or is that just cannonized religious dogma they just believe for whatever reasons? A simple yes of no answer to a yes or no question.

 

As for Jesus the fellow never existed and the Christian Bible is a fraud stolen from other religions much more ancient. So since the premise is false the teachings are moot, as they rest on real Divine authority.

The word "sin" is so loaded with guilt, etc., that I prefer not to use it.

"Karma" is a better word. It refers to the spiritual extension of the basic law of physics that: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

So, no, it is not "sinful" for a carnivore to eat another animal, just as it is not sinful for *you* to do so. However, both the carnivore and *you* (who have neither the intestines, nor the teeth/jaw structure of a carnivore) *will* get a reaction for your actions.

As for asking for proof of transmigration, let me again quote physics: energy can neither be created nor destroyed, merely transformed. So, if you grant the assumption that our essential nature is energetic, then, our essential nature is eternal.

If you want proof beyond that, I ask you a question: can you prove that *you* exist? No. Ultimately, beneath any logical system or method, there are assumptions and/or faith.

Since you're asking for proof, kindly provide evidence for your final assertion regarding Jesus and the Bible. Or are we to take that from you on faith? I know this may seem contradictory in light of the previous paragraph, but granted that there will always be underlying assumptions in any thesis and that we must have faith that evidence presented is indeed valid, we can still try to have a reasonable discussion here.

"For God so loved the World, that he gave his ONLY Begotten Son, that whosever believes IN HIM, should not perish, but have everlasting life."

- John 3:16

 

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father, but by me."

- John 14:6

 

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God IS eternal life thru Jesus Christ our Lord."

OK, let's look at this logically. Not included in these quotes (but included elsewhere in this thread?): I and my Father are one.

So, if Jesus is one with his Father, and his father is the one, true God, and Krishna is another name for the one, true God (within Whom everything is contained and Who can take any Form He pleases), then, yes, "no man comes to the Father, but by me" also includes coming to the Father through Krishna.

If the limitations of the Christians' vision prevents them from seeing that, that is *their* problem, is it not? How does it become a problem for the Vaishnava?

Science has long searched for the Grand Unified Theory. God *is* the Grand Unified Theory. God is able to harmonize *everything*.

In particular, the Vedic literature is so unbelievably rich with spiritual and scientific knowledge. One of my favorite examples is the depiction of Maha-Vishnu (who is non-different from the Father and Krishna) lying in the causal ocean sleeping. As He exhales, innumerrable universes issue from His Nose. As he inhales all of the manifest creation is destroyed.

In science, this is called the Closed-System Big Bang theory, but, while scientists attribute creation to chance, the Vaishnava sees the hand of God in everything.

You are lucky that most Christians that you know also believe that Muslims, Hindus and Jews will go to Heaven one day. From my experience and awareness I suspect that this may be an isolated case.

This begs the question: what is "Heaven"? According to Guru, this material world is but a small, dark corner of existence. Everything else is Heaven.

One word for Heaven is Vaikuntha. "Vaikuntha" means "without limits".

Without limits!!!

So, Guru teaches that, if one faithfully follows the teachings of Jesus, upon death, one will attain the plane of Jesus and will associate with their Lord and fellow Christians.

Within Gaudiya Vaishnavism there are many heavens. There is a heaven where one can worship God in a mood of awe and reverence. The *sweetest* Heaven, though (what use is there in talking of "higher" when that concept is relative), is said to be Goloka, where one can *play* with God eternally.

Without quoting the original thread, the answer to the question about killing to live is this:

Yes, in order to maintain these material bodies, we must kill. Whether it is the microbes we inhale or the carrots we pull from the ground, there is predation. When we are acting as sense-enjoyers, we will accrue Karma (reaction) for every action we take. Guru teaches that, when we dedicate all our actions to the Lord, including preparing and offering foodstuffs to the Lord that are palatable to Him, that we do *not* accrue Karma--the Lord takes all Karma. That's a simple explanation. Do inquire further if that is unclear.

As for the Bible supporting vegetarianism, that is clear in Genesis:

http://bible.cc/genesis/1-29.htm

NASB: Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; (NASB ©1995)<hr color="#ddeeff" size="1">GWT: God said, "I have given you every plant with seeds on the face of the earth and every tree that has fruit with seeds. This will be your food. (GOD'S WORD®)<hr color="#ddeeff" size="1">KJV: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.<hr color="#ddeeff" size="1">ASV: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food:<hr color="#ddeeff" size="1">BBE: And God said, See, I have given you every plant producing seed, on the face of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit producing seed: they will be for your food:<hr color="#ddeeff" size="1">DBY: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb producing seed that is on the whole earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree producing seed: it shall be food for you;<hr color="#ddeeff" size="1">JPS: And God said: 'Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed--to you it shall be for food;<hr color="#ddeeff" size="1">WBS: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food.<hr color="#ddeeff" size="1">WEB: God said, "Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree, which bears fruit yielding seed. It will be your food.<hr color="#ddeeff" size="1">YLT: And God saith, 'Lo, I have given to you every herb sowing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree sowing seed, to you it is for food;

 

Whichever translation you prefer, the meaning is abundantly clear. This was God's original instruction. If memory serves, it was not until after the Flood that God mentions anything about eating meat. Also interesting to note is that, in the Bible, life-spans consistently go *down* as time progresses. Coincidence?

The fact is, Vaishnavas (Hare Krishnas) are *not* vegetarians. They are "Prasada-tarians". They only wish to eat foodstuffs that have been offered to Krishna, and Krishna is very clear about what he likes to be offered.

Being a vegetarian is a natural step for a devotee of Krishna, but it is certainly not a requirement for chanting the Holy Names. In fact, to encourage Westerners to come and learn, my Guru's Guru's Guru had said that meat could be brought in from outside restaurants for guests who were accustomed to eating thusly.

There's much more to say on other topics raised here. I hope to return when I have a moment.

Dear Guest--kindly forgive my Godbrother's for their anger. No doubt, they are sensitive to having their faith assaulted (in however polite a manner).

Gauranga!!!

One last note: rather than try each religion for six months, why not look at the practitioners of each faith and then follow the faith that has the most happy, fulfilled, dedicated, honest and straightforward followers.

Ultimately, as the Bible agrees, we need the Grace of God to make any advancement. By our own Works alone, we cannot be saved (yeah, I know, Christians disagree on this point).

What a great t-shirt that would make.

Actually, I stole the idea from a T-Shirt. Each year at L.A. Ratha Yatra, there is a "Gurukula Reunion", and the shirt from two years ago had:

Sat

Chit

Ananda

on the front (with some symbols), and "Chit Happens" on the back.

I try to steal from the best

We should reread the Thakurs words several more times and then decide if this is indeed a debate worth investing time and energy to.

No kidding about re-reading the words!! I read it like five times and then started making plans to have it tatooed on my back (or, maybe, just the condensed version: Chit Happens).

Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur ki jai!!!!

"If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart."

In this connection Srimad Bhagavatam states clearly:

 

vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA ||

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM |

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39)

 

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja

will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain the highest bhakti for the Lord.”

 

3. SBV Narayan M said: “Then, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts.”But

If you don’t read about the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis, how can you remember them?

This is not the process recommended by the shastra.

Krishna says cleary that according what you remember, that is what you get.

According that what you worship/ remember /meditate on, you will get the result.

 

Yes, Anadi Prabhu, the verse is very clear. It states that one must hear with *faith*. Do *you* have the requisite faith???? Does everybody who cares to hear have that faith??? And how does one acquire faith? By dutifully following the instructions of Guru, Sadhu, Shastra (in that order in my not-so-humble opinion), we will become purified, and we will get the Grace of Mahaprabhu.

I don't know where you get this obsession with reading, Prabhu, but, is reading one of the limbs of devotion? No!!!!

Sravanam, Kirtanam, Vishnu-Smaranam...NOWHERE IS READING MENTIONED!!!

Sravanam is *hearing*. We hear the scriptures from the mouth, or under the guidance of the pure Sadhu. Reading it alone will lead to all sorts of misunderstandings (as you know from first-hand experience ).

There is no requirement for reading. The illiterate street-sweeper that has got the seed of devotion and waters that seed dutifully is far more advanced than the faithless person who can recite Mahabharat from memory.

We must read in the scripture (contrary to what our Guru has ordered) about the pastimes of the Gopis? Just how pitifully weak is your faith, Dear Sir (is it as weak as mine?)? Do you think the Lord cannot speak directly to the hearts of his sincere servants? Laughable!!!

Dayal Nitai!!! Dayal Nitai!!! Dayal Nitai!!!

Please forgive me if I have offended you, but I feel rather charged by your comments.

That means, if we want to give Krisna the highest pleasure, we should become maid servants of Radha, because Her service, which is the expression of the most exalted divine love, is the highest.

We become maid servants of Radha only by practicing a special type of raganuga sadhana bhakti, namely kamanuga sadhana bhakti, and one must get initiation in this type of sadhana.

The problem is that, if one’s guru never got initiated in this type of sadhana, how can his disciples and the whole line of disciples be initiated in it? He never practiced, and as such he may pretend raganuga sadhana comes automatically, which the traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta doesn’t say.

Surely, I am not alone in appreciating the profound irony that, in order to practice spontaneous devotion (raganuga bhakti), one must have a special, formal, non-spontaneous initiation? That's hillarious!!!

Anadi Prabhu, can you provide shastric evidence (pardon me if you have already done so and I missed it) that traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta disagrees that Raganuga comes spontaneously after faithfully following vaidhi?

I never heard of this bhakti Siddhanta, can you please bring evidence for the fact that

1. if guru tells you to practice something else than a limb of sadhana bhakti,

2. than what you practice, and is not a limb of sadhana bhakti,

3. becomes automatically a limb of sadhana bhakti, because he said, you should practice it.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur was the son of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

The Guru *is* the Shastra, Prabhu!! Guru, Sadhu, Shastra (in that order, I would say). Without Guru, we have no entrance into shastra. If Guru tells me something that appears to contradict shastra, I go with Guru.

Ooops! Posted in error...removed.

In my small cosmology I definately can find a place for UG and my old atheist friend. Even if only as devils advocates (but ofcourse this is the minimum of appreciation)...to keep me safe from the worst kind of ignorance (the religious bigotry of a conditioned soul - who is ruled by an unruly mind). Maybe what I am trying to say is that I am grateful for their exposing the conditioned mind for what it really is. And the dangers of this mind when it becomes attached to religious dogma.

Bija-ji!! Your entire post is beautiful music (though I quote just the last paragraph). You have clarified and expanded my (meager) understanding in such a graceful manner.

When I was out running at lunch-time, I was thinking about this topic.

The incident of the Mohini incarnation of the Lord came to mind. If the Supreme Lord is playing tricks on Lord Shiva (Lord Brahma as well), causing him to become bewildered and maddened, what tricks is that Blue Rascal playing on us?

Could not the Lord be using U.G. as His puppet, to further demolish stubborn pockets of false ego?

Your point about religious dogma is well-taken. After all, what is the heart of Bhagavad-Gita but "Sarva-Dharman..."--renounce all religion and surrender to the Lord?

Govinda!!

I've read that quote in this forum before but can't remember very well who said that. Is this a quote of Srila B.R Sridhar Maharaja? If so, how fortunate you are ... disciple of a most exalted personality!

Grand-Disciple. Thanks for reminding me of just how fortunate I am!!

My point is, when Vaisnava association and access to the highest philosophy is so freely & readily available, just why would someone want to even consider pursuing a possible avaduta with so much uncertainty and risk his spiritual life? If I've understood a little bit of Krishna Conscious philophy correctly, you get what you desire. You desire cheap religion, then Krishna will grant you that.

As I like to say: we all get the Guru we deserve

You're absolutely right here. Despite my own natural curiosity, I have been advised to be cautious in regards to with which *Vaishnavas* I associate, let alone non-Vaishnavas. However, in this forum, as in the "real world" (and, especially here in Santa Cruz), the community is not homogenous. There are seekers of various faiths. I humbly beg my Godbrothers and Godsisters to be sensitive to that fact.

Exactly prabhu! You captured my sentiment perfectly. I don't just believe, I know Krishna Consciousness works. I therefore refuse to be drawn to any philosophy that contradicts the basic principles of any religion. Of course, Maya devi is extremely powerful and it won't take much for me to be bewildered but I hope & pray that day never comes when I may give up the association of Vaisnavas.

I share your prayer!!

While we must be cautious while our devotional creeper is young and fragile, it is also said that, for the realized soul, all is seen to be the will of the Lord. We may not have that vision, but let us hang on to the faith that, by the Lord's inconceivable mercy, so many seeming contradictions can be harmonized.

Here's what I'm really trying to get across here:

It's easy to be dismissive. It was easy for UG to dismiss all spiritual teachers (for whatever reason--I can see a didactic purpose for this approach). It's easy for us to dismiss him as being in gross illusion.

In another discussion on the forum, Y.K. presented his impression of "HK" Gaudiya Vaishnavas as being arrogant and offensive to other spiritual beliefs. While I argued that, in the advanced Vaishnava we don't see this mood, I can certainly realate to his experience from my own.

Srila Prabhupad introduced the mercy of Mahaprabhu to the West. How many seekers will we attract to the mercy if we are rude and arrogant? How many will wish to become rude and arrogant like ourselves?

If, in our distribution, we find ourselves running out of ways to praise Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga, and have to resort to attacking the faith of others, then, perhaps, isn't it time for us to go get more nourishment from the processes of devotion?

Then let's just agree to disagree. Acaryas preach according to time, place & circumstances. However, they do not compromise on the fundamental principles. From what I've read about UGK on the website that someone provided a link to, it seems he didn't believe in so much as the presence of the soul.

Looks like you were replying to me as I was replying to myself. My reply to myself addresses some of what is here, but, kindly allow me to add a few words.

I did see that bit about his rejection of the notion of the soul. What follows that is the important point, though, "our search for permanence [is] the cause of our suffering". While I find the concept (I say concept because my faith is very weak) of an eternal soul to be comforting, but, I can also see how belief in an eternal soul can be debilitating. As a natural-born procrastinator, I could easily say--well, I've got all these lifetimes to get things right, I'll just spend this one trying to enjoy my senses.

Without getting into a point-by-point philosophical debate, who are we to say that UG was not an avadhut? For the avadhut, none of the conventions apply.

Gaudiya Vaishnava conception embraces that the teachings of the Buddha, while at odds (at least on the surface) with Vaishnava theology has it's place (as you point out) given time, place and circumstances. That is somewhat contrary to your assertion that the fundamental principles remain the same.

I possess no spiritual qualification. The source of my knowledge & ability to discern different things are the advanced Vaisnavas whose association I've been extremely lucky to have on a regular basis. Sri Krishna describes the qualities of one who is dear to Him in great detail in Chapter 12 of Bhagavad Gita. That's how I know they're advanced.

Sounds like you're very well situated, then. I pray to be so situated!

You may want to read about him in the link provided above. I don't know much about him save for what's in the link and don't mean any disrespect but it doesn't seem like he has much to offer that can take me closer to the Lotus feet of Sri Krishna, the goal of life.

I did, thanks. On the surface, what you say is true. I'm hoping (perhaps in futility) to capture the mood of my Param-Gurudev that "every wave is favorable".

Still, as we progress in the initial stages of Bhakti, some discrimination is advised.

Gauranga!