Murali_Mohan_das

I disagree. I see nothing here that cannot be harmonized with Vaishnava philosophy. While not applicable to the "plane of dedication" all of his comments seem perfectly valid on the "plane of exploitation".

 

Out of curiosity, what are your qualifications, Ms. Pitts, for determining who is and who is not a Vaishnava? Even if he didn't see himself as a Vaishnava, a Vaishnava (not I) might see him as one.

 

While aspiring Vaishnavas wish to focus on their eternally joyful destination--the realm of spirit, there is certainly a place for pointing out the inherent misery of living on the material plane (so, "My Sweet Lord" is the focus, but there's certainly a place for "Taxman").

 

Who is/was UG, anyways. I'm guessing he/she was a contributor to these forums? Oh, right, a link. I'm now looking at his picture and will read the obit.

OK, I guess I let my "broad vision" (as a kind soul on this forum has called it--I call it a "wandering eye" ) carry me away a bit.

From the obituary, it certainly seems like UG was not operating in the traditional Vaishnava paradigm, but I can see no grounds for criticizing, debasing, or minimizing his life.

While he seemed to embody some paradoxes (as do us all), he sounds like a straightforward and unpretentious person.

While it's been said many times: Without Guru, one can't get God, and without God, one can't get Guru, I still cannot accept that it is impossible for someone to attain God-consciousness without a formal connection with an Acharya. If someone is sincere and pure, no doubt they will be guided by Chaitya Guru, Guru within the heart.

I like the analogy of crossing the Sahara. Sure, one could cross the Sahara alone without any guide or map, but, if there is a guide and map, why not employ them?

One can discover Calculus for one's self, or one can learn from a qualified teacher.

Any reasonable person, it is safe to assume, would accept that Guru is here due to the mercy of God, and eagerly accept guidance, but, I will not criticize somebody for stubbornly insisting to go it alone. Rather, I find in that a sort of tragic beauty.

He didn't sound like a Vaisnava because he wasn't one. He seemed to be in gross ignorance. However, he has passed on and we can only hope he found a good destination.

I disagree. I see nothing here that cannot be harmonized with Vaishnava philosophy. While not applicable to the "plane of dedication" all of his comments seem perfectly valid on the "plane of exploitation".

Out of curiosity, what are your qualifications, Ms. Pitts, for determining who is and who is not a Vaishnava? Even if he didn't see himself as a Vaishnava, a Vaishnava (not I) might see him as one.

While aspiring Vaishnavas wish to focus on their eternally joyful destination--the realm of spirit, there is certainly a place for pointing out the inherent misery of living on the material plane (so, "My Sweet Lord" is the focus, but there's certainly a place for "Taxman").

Who is/was UG, anyways. I'm guessing he/she was a contributor to these forums? Oh, right, a link. I'm now looking at his picture and will read the obit.

I was really surprised no one responded to this. Is it that Islam is so out of the range of our experiences? Prior to joining the devotees I was very attracted to Sufism and particulary the poetry and dance. Just wondering who else had any appreciation for some elements if Islam. I always liked how carpetmakers and artists would make such intricate designs but leave flaws as to not try and challenge the prefection of the Lord. Anyhow.

Perhaps we were all stunned into silence by the beauty of the poem, Braj!!

I can't say I've had much association in the Sufi community, but, certainly, I've been moved (as have other aspiring Vaishnavas) by Qawwalli Sufi music such as popularized by the late, great Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.

Anyways, it is *this* brand of Islam which ought be getting all the attention rather than the radical, violent minorities, wouldn't you agree?

Dayal Nitai!!!

Moderator,

Is there something in your softwear that keeps making edits of posts, and posts themselves jump off the screen and pages change by themselves, or is it part of the bane of cable service and road runner softwear that does this? Or is my computer down with a cold?

I had a problem editing one of my posts. Similar to what you describe. All the text after a particular embedded URL was deleted each time. Finally, I went into HTML-editing mode (there's a button in the upper right-hand corner of the editor) to clean up an unclosed HTML tag.

Of course, if you don't know any HTML, this technique is of little help.

Dayal Nitai!!

I haven't agreed that each avatara of Vishnu is complete in itself or came with full opulences except shri Krishna. Other avataras came with specific purposes to save the world.

Interesting little point for discussion here. It's one thing to point out that avataras do not all come with the full regalia of Lord Vishnu, that is established clearly. But, how can we say that any plenary portion of the Lord is incomplete? Surely, any Avatar of the Lord could, at any time, display His/Her transcendental, Absolute Form in the same fashion that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did on several occasions.

I won't look it up at this moment, but, doesn't Krishna say in Bhagavad Gita that every portion of Himself is full and complete?

Govinda!

You wonderfully mentioned about compassion that Srila Prabhupada said about. From the beginning, the first thing that comes to my mind on the pronouciation of the word 'Vaishnava' is - compassion.

I was wondering what you think about the lavish use of words like rascal and fool towards fellow saints like Ramakrishna Paramahansa by SP?

You didn't ask me, dear Y.K.-ji, but kindly allow me to chime in nonetheless.

Going back to my question asking you to cite evidence of Vaishnavas dismissing Shastra as fabricated. My question was a bit pointed. What I really meant was: where is there evidence of great Vaishnava acharyas doing so? My Gurudev certainly does not do so. Rather, he focuses on a very simple definition of religion: that which takes us from a lower position to a higher position.

As you observe, the mood of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad was, at times, combative. One could say, that he was in the mood of *his* Gurudev, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati (and even Bhaktisiddanta respectfully paid obeisances from a distance to one whom he considered to be a "sahajiya"), who has been called the "Lion Guru". While it's dangerous to speculate, one could say that the approach that Prabhupad took in spreading Krishna Nam was tailored to the times in which he came. He had a mountain of false ego to blast through, so, dynamite was appropriate.

Be that as it may, it is not for anyone to *imitate* the mood of the Acharya. Srila Prabhupad may be able to say who is qualified and who is not, but where is *our* authority?

I will not deny your experience, Y.K.. I too have seen neophyte (in my own estimation) devotees, in trying to imitate Srila Prabhupada, sounding like brash, braying donkeys, making bitter something which should be so sweet.

I kinda skimmed your discussion with PD and the lengthy quotes. Whether or not it was intended to be applied in this way, I see the quotes as applying universally. I didn't see the inference that *you* are the beginner and the ISKCON devotees are all advanced.

As you say, a real Vaishnava is very hard to find. Most of us souls are beginning apirants. As beginners, we must be tolerant, humble and give honor to others. That's how we will make advancement. Offending sincere seekers hurts our own advancement more than anybody else's.

This verse does not apply to Christ, since Christ did not appear at the conjunction of two yugas.

I would assume that HerServant was referring to the *second* coming of Christ as prophecied, not the first, historical appearance.

I find it alarming that "Christian-Vaisnavas", try to mould the two different faiths together.

Is that how you view it? Especially in the case of HerServant, I see it more as trying to find common ground between our faiths than trying to meld the two together. No doubt there is the danger of Rasa-Abhas (improper mixing of devotional moods) in the endeavor, but I can find no fault in the aspiration. This is a forum for "Spiritual Discussions", of which, this is an example.

That said, I would also mention to HerServant--while your mood seems wholly devotional (and not manipulative), be aware of how your proclamations might be received. Praising Jesus in a room full of aspiring Vaishnavas is kinda like bragging to a lady friend of yours (who is in a committed relationship) about how great this guy you know is. The guy might be a great guy, but hearing his glories might not be that palatable to the friend.

Christianity as practised today is actually St. Paulism and churchianity.

Why are there no pictures or "murtis" of Christ in any temple in Vrndanava or Navadvip?

What does this have to do with anything??? How many murtis are there in Gaudiya Vaishnava temples of Radha-Krishna in divine union? Does that mean that it is not so? Bitter? Time to taste the sweetness??

Why is this Jesus-vaisnava concoction not mentioned in the writing of the Gosvamis?

Can you be so certain that Jesus is *not* mentioned in the writings of the Goswamis (I'm not claiming that he is)? Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is not mentioned by name in Srimad Bhagavatam, but the sages with greater insight than you and I have pointed out the evidence for the rest of us.

Why is that the "son of God" not mentioned directly in the Vedas?

Why is Srimati Radharani not mentioned by name in the Srimad Bhagavatam?

Why is it that the main Chrisitian belief of salvation through the violent death of their saviour not found as a limb of bhakti in Gaudiya sastra?

Once again, this is off the topic. Time, place and circumstances. Gaudiya Vaishnavas might not find the Christian mood to be palatable, but, obviously, there are many souls for whom this Rasa resonates. Is this Christian doctrine not also part of the mercy of the Lord?

Looking at the word-for-word in the Vedabase, Yas'aa is said to be a surname.

So, whether one takes the name Visnu Yas'aa to be that of the father of Kalki Avatar, or Kalki Himself, Yas'aa is a family name, not a first name.

http://www.vedabase.net/sb/1/3/25/en

[url="http://www.vedabase.net/a/atha"]

But .. is there actually such a thing as a comma in sanskrit? I've not see one, but (punctuation) point taken.

I'm not a Sanskrit grammarian (haven't actively studied the language since I was 5), but, I do recall seeing a news article discussing how Sanskrit would be an ideal language for use in artificial intelligence. I assume this has something to do with the precision of the language. Of course, folks still find many different ways to translate/interpret a given Sanskrit text.

In any case, in this particular verse, without being able to parse the Sanskrit myself (anybody else care to?), I would think there would be a clear grammatical distinction between "Yas'aa, son of Vis'nu" and "Vis'nu Yas'aa".

Ultimately, though, I trust Srila Prabhupad to translate the verse for me in an accurate fashion.

Anyhoo, I admire your ability to straddle many fences, build bridges, see commonalities, etc. Your insights are often illuminating.

Gauranga!!

Deborah, Gaudiyas go around the world proving all scriptures as fabricated, why should I believe the authenticity of a 300 year old book?

YK, can you cite some examples of this wild generalization? This has not been part of my (limited) experience at all. My Gurudev and his acknowledged representatives have never, to my knowledge, dismissed any scripture as being fabricated.

To the actual issue at hand: YK, you've pointed out that earlier Vedic scripture is consistent in depicting Krishna as an avatar of Vishnu; you've also acknowledged that each manifestation of Bhagavan is full and complete. So, my question is: why do we belabor this point? When we are talking about things that are sat, chit, ananda, how can there be any question of primacy (in terms of time, or position)? At this point, it becomes an exercise in semantics.

So, let's not talk about who's higher or comes first. Rather, let's talk about the true goal of life: service to the Divine. In what manner can we serve and please Maha-Vishnu? Awe, reverence? But, isn't it said in scripture that the Lord is more pleased by our love and devotion in the mood madhurya (paramour), vatsalya (parental), etc., rather than awe and reverence?

Wouldn't having everybody around you groveling all the time get old really fast?

The Vaishnava doesn't care who's first and who's higher. The Vaishnava wants to please his Master/Lover/Best Friend. The Gopis don't even care to think of Krishna as God.

With my obeisances,

--MMd

OK, I just looked up the verse on the Vedabase, HerServant, and there's one problem with your proposition--there's a comma missing.

http://www.vedabase.net/sb/1/3/25/en

It doesn't say " the son of Viṣṇu, Yaśā", it says " the son of Viṣṇu Yaśā" (note the missing comma between Vishnu and Yasha). So, the name is "Visnu Yasa", and that's the name of Kalki's father, not Kalki. Look in the purport for further confirmation:

Therefore at the end of this period, the incarnation of Kalki will take place, as foretold in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The name of His father, Viṣṇu Yaśā, a learned brāhmaṇa, and the village Śambhala are also mentioned.

So, it's a neat theory (and true in a sense), but, without that comma...

Perhaps not so much a big bang but an expanding and contracting universe with Maha-Visnu inhaling and exhaling?

Huh? My claim is that the two (big bang and Maha-Vishnu's breathing) are functionally equivalent. Can you explain how they are different?

Think of your own breathing. To a microbe in your lungs, your exhalations must seem like explosive events. Think of Maha-Vishnu (may I always dwell on His Lotus Feet). If all universes are contained within Him, wouldn't that make Him rather large (not necessarily, since the lord can contain all Universes within the smallest portion of Him--in fact, Maha-Vishnu could be a singularity)? Remember, a single breath of Maha-Vishnu is 100 years of Brahma (or some 4 billion years--no, actually, it's even longer).

OK, putting aside the science (and aspects of the big bang theory which don't add up) for a moment, what is the *theological* opposition to the big bang theory? I know Srila Prabhupada was very much against the idea that creation appeared by chance, and this carried over to disdain of the big bang theory.

However, as I've mentioned once before on this forum, we see in Srimad Bhagavatam a description of creation that very much parallels the big bang. http://vedabase.net/sb/1/10/21/

They said: Here He is, the original Personality of Godhead as we definitely remember Him. He alone existed before the manifested creation of the modes of nature, and in Him only, because He is the Supreme Lord, all living beings merge, as if sleeping at night, their energy suspended.

and, from the purport:

There are two types of dissolution of the manifested cosmos. At the end of every 4,320,000,000 solar years, when Brahmā, the lord of one particular universe, goes to sleep, there is one annihilation. And at the end of Lord Brahmā's life, which takes place at the end of Brahmā's one hundred years of age, in our calculation at the end of 8,640,000,000 x 30 x 12 x 100 solar years, there is complete annihilation of the entire universe, and in both the periods both the material energy called the mahat-tattva and the marginal energy called jīva-tattva merge in the person of the Supreme Lord. The living beings remain asleep within the body of the Lord until there is another creation of the material world, and that is the way of the creation, maintenance and annihilation of the material manifestation.

and:

This Mahā-Viṣṇu is the plenary portion of the Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, who is mentioned in the Brahma-saḿhitā as follows:

"Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the original Personality of Godhead, Govinda, whose plenary portion is the Mahā-Viṣṇu. All the Brahmās, the heads of the universes, live only for the period of His exhaling, after the universes are generated from the pores of His transcendental body." (Brahma-saḿhitā 5.58)

 

Can somebody reconcile this for me? It sure sounds like the big bang, but with Vishnu as the source of all.

By the way, I don't get the Mad Max reference. Mad Max was set in the future, but wasn't really science fiction. I believe the original poster was referring to: Buckaroo Banzai. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086856/)

Such after effects are applicable for every thing we eat. Even for fruits and vegetables. The insecticides and chemicals using in the cultivation is the main cause for this

I agree with you 100%. It's very comforting to note that, in our local supermarket, Safeway, the section for Organic (free of pesticides and inorganic fertilizers) produce is getting larger and larger, and they are offering an increasing number of other products from organically-grown plants.

However, with meat, it's possible that the levels of pesticides are even higher than with fresh produce since, to generate a pound of cow flesh, many pounds of grain/grasses must be consumed, so the pesticide residue is further concentrated. Plus, the use of hormones is a factor in meat production, but not in growth of plants.

Excerpt from the following article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17815402/

Eat a lot of beef? It may affect your son’s sperm

Study links chowing on red meat in pregnancy to peculiar long-term effect

WASHINGTON - U.S. women who eat a lot of beef while pregnant give birth to sons who grow up to have low sperm counts, researchers reported Tuesday.They believe pesticides, hormones or contaminants in cattle feed may be to blame. Chemicals can build up in the fat of animals that eat contaminated feed or grass, and cattle are routinely given hormones to boost their growth.

"In sons of 'high beef consumers' (more than seven beef meals a week), sperm concentration was 24.3 percent lower," the researchers wrote in their report, published in the journal Human Reproduction.

Read the rest of the article for more details.

When Newton's laws do not apply, then he is wrong. It is very simple.

My apologies, dear Sir. I assumed a greater familiarity with Physics than you demonstrate. Allow me to elaborate.

Newton is not "wrong" at any particular point in *time*. Rather, at speeds approaching that of light and at the atomic and subatomic (read: very small) scales, his laws do not apply (read: they do not accurately predict what will happen in a given system). At speeds approaching that of light, relativistic effects are seen, while at the subatomic level, quantum effects are seen.

So, we use Newtonian physics today each time we launch a satelite into orbit, etc. Newton's laws apply from specks of dust up to gas giants and beyond.

Your view of physics and spirituality are rather simplistic.

Also, you completely neglected to address my point about the dual nature of light. There are experiments that can demonstrate the wave nature of light, and, conversely, there are experiments that demonstrate the particle nature of light. There is no question of time here.

We will apply your logic to the context and see how it holds. Buddha's atheistic teachings were correct for his time as there was no God existing during his time. But a thousand years later, during the time of Shankara, God came into existence and so Shankara was right for his time. But God was formless during the time of Shankara and there was no duality. 400 years later, by the time of Madhva, God had attained a form and duality was permanent and this God was a Vaishnava God. Therefore all 3 were correct for their times and circumstances. This is what your logic leads to.

 

Anyway, since Chaitanya is over 400 years old, by your time and circumstance logic, his ideas are obsolete now. You should be going for something or someone that came up recently like Osho or SaiBaba or Scientology. Otherwise, you have to also take the trouble to explain how a 400 year old idea is valid for today's time while a 20-30 year old idea is not and this is somehow in line with the time and circumstance logic.

So, from my comments above, I hope you can see that you are not applying my logic in the quote above, but completely miss the point.

In the infinite mercy of the Divine, so many options (all of which hold some validity, at least in a given frame of reference) have been presented. Many of my Buddhist friends simply have no taste for worshipping a personal God. So, God, in His/Her mercy has sent Buddha to give them a moral/spiritual conception that is to their taste. Otherwise, they might simply be run-of-the-mill atheists.

Similarly, God has sent Sai Baba to delight those who are impressed by minor mystic siddhis like making ashes or Rolex's appear from thin air.

Same for all the other faiths you mention. God is so great, that all these conceptions can be accomodated *simultaneously* (and inconceivably).

Some would claim that one of these faiths is "higher" than the others, but, I would remind the reader that "higher" is a relative conception. It can be said that, when the moon is behind the Earth relative to me, that I am "higher" than the moon.

So, rather, what is the criteria for the Vaishnava? Is it not *sweetness*? To the Vaishnava, chanting the names of the Lord and meditating on His/Her Divine Pastimes is the sweetest form of worship.

For the Christian, meditating on the agony of their Lord may be the sweetest. While Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu had His own agony of separation, Vaishnavas do not typically worship Mahaprabhu in that form (like Christians do with Christ on the cross). Rather, Mahaprabhu is pictured in his householder pastimes or his sankirttan pastimes. It's a question of taste.

So, no need to see things as black and white. God is Infinite.

Govinda!!!

You are correct, but your analogy is out of context. In your example, truth is revealed in parts but note that no part falsifies another part that was revealed earlier.

 

Now compare this with the actual topic. Shankara positing theism falsifies the atheistic Buddhist position. Dvaita positing permanent dualism falsifies Advaita. By definition, this is not how truth works.

How about this example:

When studying physics, one usually starts with Newtonian mechanics. Newton's physics is relatively straightforward. F=ma, P=mv, etc.

However, when one progresses to quantum mechanics (which, admittedly, apply at a different scale (which, in and of itself is instructional)), Newton's laws do not apply in the same way or at all.

Yet, "reality" is accomodating both of these principles.

In the case of Shankara, et. al., Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has harmonized all with His Acintya Beda-bed conception.

Is light a particle or a wave? The answer is that it is both.

Gauranga!!!

My obeisances to all the noble Vaishnavas and guests!

Interesting thread here. As often is the case, it has gone off on tangents, but much of value is present.

Let me add 2 cents in reply to one of the original posts by JustAsking (though others have alluded to this point).

To see Satan as separate from and (in a sense) equal to God is a heresy. Satan is the friend and servant of God (see the book of Job if that doesn't make sense--God and Satan are chatting and make a bet together).

In fact, historically, there was a raging battle in the early days of the Church between the Christians and the Manicheists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manicheism#Manichaeism_and_orthodox_Christianity).

St. Augustine had been a Manicheist (who believe that God and Satan are dual and equal), but renounced that belief in realization that there is only God.

So, don't fear and despise Satan (or Maya for that matter). Rather, love God.

Pretty stark sign of the times, there Brajeshwara Prabhu!!

Here is a well-written and fully foot-noted article on the topic. Of note, it's not just cows. There is an epidemic of "scrapie" (mad sheep disease) in US sheep. Also, mad cow can be acquired through eating cheese, not just meat!!!

Of course there's lots more information out there if you simply Google it. I like this article in particular since the source material is almost all from peer-reviewed journals (which tends to quickly silence most skeptics).

http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/MadCow.htm

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In October 2001, 34-year-old Washington State native Peter Putnam started losing his mind. One month he was delivering a keynote business address, the next he couldn't form a complete sentence. Once athletic, soon he couldn't walk. Then he couldn't eat. After a brain biopsy showed it was Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, his doctor could no longer offer any hope. “Just take him home and love him,” the doctor counseled his family.^1,2,3 Peter's tragic death, in October 2002, may have been caused by Mad Cow disease.

Seven years earlier and 5000 miles away, Stephen Churchill was the first in England to die. His first symptoms of depression and dizziness gave way to a living nightmare of terrifying hallucinations; he was dead in 12 months at age 19.⁴ Next was Peter Hall, 20, who showed the first signs of depression around Christmas, 1994. By the next Christmas, he couldn't walk, talk, or do anything for himself.⁵ Then it was Anna's turn, then Michelle's. Michelle Bowen, age 29, died in a coma three weeks after giving birth to her son via emergency cesarean section. Then it was Alison's turn. These were the first five named victims of Britain's Mad Cow epidemic. They died from what the British Secretary of Health called the worst form of death imaginable, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, a relentlessly progressive and invariably fatal human dementia.⁶ The announcement of their deaths, released on March 20, 1996 (ironically, Meatout Day⁷), reversed the British government's decade-old stance that British beef was safe to eat.⁸

It is now considered an “incontestable fact” that these human deaths in Britain were caused by Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), or Mad Cow disease.⁹ Bovine means “cow or cattle,” spongiform means “sponge-like,” and encephalopathy means “brain disease.” Mad Cow disease is caused by unconventional pathogens called prions—literally infectious proteins—which, because of their unique structure, are practically invulnerable, surviving even incineration¹⁰ at temperatures hot enough to melt lead.¹¹ The leading theory as to how cows got Mad Cow disease in the first place is by eating diseased sheep infected with a sheep spongiform encephalopathy called scrapie.¹²

In humans, prions can cause Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD), a human spongiform encephalopathy whose clinical picture can involve weekly deterioration into blindness and epilepsy as one's brain becomes riddled with tiny holes.

We've known about Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease for decades, since well before the first mad cow was discovered in 1985. Some cases of CJD seemed to run in families; other cases seemed to just arise spontaneously in about one in a million people every year, and were hence dubbed “sporadic.” The new form of CJD caused by eating beef from cows infected with Mad Cow disease, though, seemed to differ from the classic sporadic CJD.

The CJD caused by infected meat has tended to strike younger people, has produced more psychotic symptoms, and has often dragged on for a year or more. The most defining characteristic, though, was found when their brains were sampled. The brain pathology was vividly reminiscent of Kuru, a disease once found in a New Guinea tribe of cannibals who ate the brains of their dead.¹³ Scientists called this new form of the disease “variant” CJD.

Other than Charlene, a 24-year-old woman now so tragically dying in Florida, who was probably infected in Britain, there have been no reported cases of variant CJD in the U.S.¹⁴ Hundreds of confirmed cases of the sporadic form of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, however, arise in the United States every year,¹⁵ but the beef industry is quick to point out these are cases of sporadic CJD, not the new variant known to be caused by Mad Cow disease.¹⁶ Of course, no one knows what causes sporadic CJD. New research, discussed below, suggests that not hundreds but thousands of Americans die of sporadic CJD every year, and that some of these CJD deaths may be caused by eating infected meat after all.

Although the fact that Mad Cow disease causes variant CJD had already been strongly established, researchers at the University College of London nevertheless created transgenic mice complete with “humanized” brains genetically engineered with human genes to try to prove the link once and for all. When the researchers injected one strain of the “humanized” mice with infected cow brains, they came down with the same brain damage seen in human variant CJD, as expected. But when they tried this in a different strain of transgenic “humanized” mice, those mice got sick too, but most got sick from what looked exactly like sporadic CJD! The Mad Cow prions caused a disease that had a molecular signature indistinguishable from sporadic CJD. To the extent that animal experiments can simulate human results, their shocking conclusion was that eating infected meat might be responsible for some cases of sporadic CJD in addition to the expected variant CJD. The researchers concluded that “it is therefore possible that some patients with [what looks like]... sporadic CJD may have a disease arising from BSE exposure.”¹⁷ Laura Manuelidis, section chief of surgery in the neuropathology department at Yale University, comments, “Now people are beginning to realize that because something looks like sporadic CJD they can't necessarily conclude that it's not linked to [Mad Cow disease]...”¹⁸

This is not the first time meat was linked to sporadic CJD. In 2001, a team of French researchers found, to their complete surprise, a strain of scrapie—“mad sheep” disease—that caused the same brain damage in mice as sporadic CJD.¹⁹ “This means we cannot rule out that at least some sporadic CJD may be caused by some strains of scrapie,” says team member Jean-Philippe Deslys of the French Atomic Energy Commission's medical research laboratory.²⁰

Population studies had failed to show a link between CJD and lamb chops, but this French research provided an explanation why. There seem to be six types of sporadic CJD and there are more than 20 strains of scrapie. If only some sheep strains affect only some people, studies of entire populations may not clearly show the relationship. Monkeys fed infected sheep brains certainly come down with the disease.²¹ Hundreds of “mad sheep” were found in the U.S. in 2003.²² Scrapie remains such a problem in the United States that the USDA has issued a scrapie “declaration of emergency.”²³ Maybe some cases of sporadic CJD in the U.S. are caused by sheep meat as well.²⁴

Pork is also a potential source of infection. Cattle remains are still boiled down and legally fed to pigs (as well as chickens) in this country. The FDA allows this exemption because no “naturally occurring” porcine (pig) spongiform encephalopathy has ever been found. But American farmers typically kill pigs at just five months of age, long before the disease is expected to show symptoms. And, because pigs are packed so tightly together, it would be difficult to spot neurological conditions like spongiform encephalopathies, whose most obvious symptoms are movement and gait disturbances. We do know, however, that pigs are susceptible to the disease—laboratory experiments show that pigs can indeed be infected by Mad Cow brains²⁵—and hundreds of thousands of downer pigs, too sick or crippled by injury to even walk, arrive at U.S. slaughterhouses every year.²⁶

A number of epidemiological studies have suggested a link between pork consumption and sporadic CJD. Analyzing peoples' diet histories, the development of CJD was associated with eating roast pork, ham, hot dogs, pork chops, smoked pork, and scrapple (a kind of pork pudding made from various hog carcass scraps). The researchers concluded, “The present study indicated that consumption of pork as well as its processed products (e.g., ham, scrapple) may be considered as risk factors in the development of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.” Compared to people that didn't eat ham, for example, those who included ham in their diet seemed ten times more likely to develop CJD.²⁷ In fact, the USDA may have actually recorded an outbreak of “mad pig” disease in New York 25 years ago, but still refuses to reopen the investigation despite petitions from the Consumer's Union (the publishers of Consumer Reports magazine).²⁸

Sporadic CJD has also been associated with weekly beef consumption,²⁹ as well as the consumption of roast lamb,³⁰ veal, venison, brains in general,³¹ and, in North America, seafood.^32,33 The development of CJD has also, surprisingly, been significantly linked to exposure to animal products in fertilizer,³⁴ sport fishing and deer hunting in the U.S.,³⁵ and frequent exposure to leather products.³⁶

We do not know at this time whether chicken meat poses a risk. There was a preliminary report of ostriches allegedly fed risky feed in German zoos who seemed to come down with a spongiform encephalopathy.³⁷ Even if chickens and turkeys themselves are not susceptible, though, they may become so-called “silent carriers” of Mad Cow prions and pass them on to human consumers.³⁸ Dateline NBC quoted D. Carleton Gajdusek, the first to be awarded a Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work on prion diseases,³⁹ as saying, “it's got to be in the pigs as well as the cattle. It's got to be passing through the chickens.”⁴⁰ Dr. Paul Brown, medical director for the U.S. Public Health Service, believes that pigs and poultry could indeed be harboring Mad Cow disease and passing it on to humans, adding that pigs are especially sensitive to the disease. “It's speculation,” he says, “but I am perfectly serious.”⁴¹

The recent exclusion of most cow brains, eyes, spinal cords, and intestines from the human food supply may make beef safer, but where are those tissues going? These potentially infectious tissues continue to go into animal feed for chickens, other poultry, pigs, and pets (as well as being rendered into products like tallow for use in cosmetics, the safety of which is currently under review⁴²). Until the federal government stops the feeding of slaughterhouse waste, manure, and blood to all farm animals, the safety of meat in America cannot be guaranteed.

The hundreds of American families stricken by sporadic CJD every year have been told that it just occurs by random chance. Professor Collinge, the head of the University College of London lab, noted, “When you counsel those who have the classical sporadic disease, you tell them that it arises spontaneously out of the blue. I guess we can no longer say that.”

“We are not saying that all or even most cases of sporadic CJD are as a result of BSE exposure,” Professor Collinge continued, “but some more recent cases may be—the incidence of sporadic CJD has shown an upward trend in the UK over the last decade... serious consideration should be given to a proportion of this rise being BSE-related. Switzerland, which has had a substantial BSE epidemic, has noted a sharp recent increase in sporadic CJD.”⁴³ In the Nineties, Switzerland had the highest rate of Mad Cow disease in continental Europe, and their rate of sporadic CJD doubled.⁴⁴

We don't know exactly what's happening to the rate of CJD in this country, in part because CJD is not an officially notifiable illness.⁴⁵ Currently only a few states have such a requirement. Because the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) does not actively monitor the disease on a national level,⁴⁶ a rise similar to the one in Europe could be missed.⁴⁷ In spite of this, a number of U.S. CJD clusters have already been found. In the largest known U.S. outbreak of sporadic cases to date,⁴⁸ five times the expected rate was found to be associated with cheese consumption in Pennsylvania's Lehigh Valley.⁴⁹ A striking increase in CJD over expected levels was also reported in Florida⁵⁰ and New York (Nassau County)⁵¹ with anecdotal reports of clusters of deaths in Oregon⁵² and New Jersey.⁵³

Perhaps particularly worrisome is the seeming increase in CJD deaths among young people in this country. In the 18 years between 1979 and 1996, only a single case of sporadic CJD was found in someone under 30; whereas between 1997 and 2001, five people under 30 died of sporadic CJD. So five young Americans died in five years, as opposed to one young case in the previous 18 years. The true prevalence of CJD among any age group in this country remains a mystery, though, in part because it is so commonly misdiagnosed.⁵⁴

The most frequent misdiagnosis of CJD among the elderly is Alzheimer's disease.⁵⁵ Neither CJD nor Alzheimer's can be conclusively diagnosed without a brain biopsy,⁵⁶ and the symptoms and pathology of both diseases overlap. There can be spongy changes in Alzheimer's, for example, and senile Alzheimer's plaques in CJD.⁵⁷ Stanley Prusiner, the scientist who won the Nobel Prize for his discovery of prions, speculates that Alzheimer's may even turn out to be a prion disease as well.⁵⁸ In younger victims, CJD is more often misdiagnosed as multiple sclerosis or as a severe viral infection.⁵⁹

Over the last 20 years the rates of Alzheimer's disease in the United States have skyrocketed.⁶⁰ According to the CDC, Alzheimer's disease is now the eighth leading cause of death in the United States,⁶¹ afflicting an estimated 4 million Americans.⁶² Twenty percent or more of people clinically diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, though, are found at autopsy not to have had Alzheimer's at all.⁶³ A number of autopsy studies have shown that a few percent of Alzheimer's deaths may in fact be CJD. Given the new research showing that infected beef may be responsible for some sporadic CJD, thousands of Americans may already be dying because of Mad Cow disease every year.⁶⁴

Nobel Laureate Gajdusek, for example, estimates that 1% of people showing up in Alzheimer clinics actually have CJD.⁶⁵ At Yale, out of a series of 46 patients clinically diagnosed with Alzheimer's, six were proven to have CJD at autopsy.⁶⁶ In another study of brain biopsies, out of a dozen patients diagnosed with Alzheimer's according to established criteria, three of them were actually dying from CJD.⁶⁷ An informal survey of neuropathologists registered a suspicion that CJD accounts for 2-12% of all dementias in general.⁶⁸ Two autopsy studies showed a CJD rate among dementia deaths of about 3%^.69,70 A third study, at the University of Pennsylvania, showed that 5% of patients diagnosed with dementia had CJD.⁷¹ Although only a few hundred cases of sporadic CJD are officially reported in the U.S. annually,⁷² hundreds of thousands of Americans die with dementia every year.⁷³ Thousands of these deaths may actually be from CJD caused by eating infected meat.

The incubation period for human spongiform encephalopathies such as CJD can be decades.⁷⁴ This means it can be years between eating infected meat and getting diagnosed with the death sentence of CJD. Although only about 150 people have so far been diagnosed with variant CJD worldwide, it will be many years before the final death toll is known. In the United States, an unknown number of animals are infected with Mad Cow disease, causing an unknown number of human deaths from CJD. The U.S. should immediately begin testing all cows destined for human consumption, as is done in Japan, should stop feeding slaughterhouse waste to all farm animals (see http://organicconsumers.org/madcow/GregerBSE.cfm), and should immediately enact an active national surveillance program for CJD.⁷⁵

Five years ago this week, the Center for Food Safety, the Humane Farming Association, the Center for Media & Democracy, and ten families of CJD victims petitioned the FDA and the CDC to immediately enact a national CJD monitoring system, including the mandatory reporting of CJD in all 50 states.⁷⁶ The petition was denied.⁷⁷ The CDC argued that their passive surveillance system tracking death certificate diagnoses was adequate. Their analysis of death certificates in three states and two cities, for example, showed an overall stable and typical one in a million CJD incidence rate from 1979 to 1993.⁷⁸ But CJD is so often misdiagnosed, and autopsies are so infrequently done, that this system may not provide an accurate assessment.⁷⁹

In 1997, the CDC set up the National Prion Disease Pathology Surveillance Center at Case Western Reserve University to analyze brain tissue from CJD victims in the U.S. in hopes of tracking any new developments. In Europe, surveillance centers have been seeing most, if not all, cases of CJD. The U.S. center sees less than half. “I'm very unhappy with the numbers,” laments Pierluigi Gambetti, the director of the Center. “The British and Germans politely smile when they see we examine 30% or 40% of the cases,” he says. “They know unless you examine 80% or more, you are not in touch.”⁸⁰ “The chance of losing an important case is high.”⁸¹

One problem is that many doctors don't even know the Center exists. And neither the CDC nor the Center are evidently authorized to reach out to them directly to bolster surveillance efforts, because it's currently up to each state individually to determine how—or even whether—they will track the disease. In Europe, in contrast, the national centers work directly with each affected family and their physicians.⁸² In the U.S., most CJD cases—even the confirmed ones—seem to just fall through the cracks. In fact, based on the autopsy studies at Yale and elsewhere, it seems most CJD cases in the U.S. aren't even picked up in the first place.

Autopsy rates have dropped in the U.S. from 50% in the Sixties to less than 10% at present.⁸³ Although one reason autopsies are rarely performed on atypical dementia cases is that medical professionals are afraid of catching the disease,⁸⁴ the primary reason for the decline in autopsy rates in general appears to be financial. There is currently no direct reimbursement to doctors or hospitals for doing autopsies, which often forces the family to absorb the cost of transporting the body to an autopsy center and having the brain samples taken, a tab that can run upwards of $1500.⁸⁵

Another problem is that the National Prion Disease Pathology Surveillance Center itself remains underfunded. Paul Brown, medical director for the National Institutes of Health, has described the Center's budget as “pitiful,” complaining that “there isn't any budget for CJD surveillance.”⁸⁶ To adequately survey America's 290 million residents, “you need a lot of money.” UK CJD expert Robert Will explains, “There was a CJD meeting of families in America in which...[the CDC] got attacked fairly vigorously because there wasn't proper surveillance. You could only do proper surveillance if you have adequate resources.”⁸⁷ “I compare this to the early days of AIDS,” says protein chemist Shu Chen, who directs the Center's lab, “when no one wanted to deal with the crisis.”⁸⁸

Andrew Kimbrell, the director of the Center for Food Safety, a D.C.-based public interest group, writes, “Given what we know now, it is unconscionable that the CDC is not strictly monitoring these diseases.”⁸⁹ Given the presence of Mad Cow disease in the U.S., we need to immediately enact uniform active CJD surveillance on a national level, provide adequate funding not only for autopsies but also for the shipment of bodies, and require mandatory reporting of the disease in all 50 states. In Britain, even feline spongiform encephalopathy, the cat version of Mad Cow disease, is an officially notifiable illness. “No one has looked for CJD systematically in the U.S.,” notes NIH medical director Paul Brown. “Ever.”⁹⁰

The animal agriculture industries continue to risk public safety, and the government seems to protect the industries' narrow business interests more than it protects its own citizens. Internal USDA documents retrieved through the Freedom of Information Act show that our government did indeed consider a number of precautionary measures as far back as 1991 to protect the American public from Mad Cow disease. According to one such document, however, the USDA explained that the “disadvantage” of these measures was that “the cost to the livestock and rendering industries would be substantial.”⁹¹

Plant sources of protein for farm animals can cost up to 30% more than cattle remains.⁹² The Cattlemen's Association admitted a decade ago that animal agribusiness could indeed find economically feasible alternatives to feeding slaughterhouse waste to other animals, but that they did not want to set a precedent of being ruled by “activists.”⁹³

Is it a coincidence that USDA Secretary Veneman chose Dale Moore, former chief lobbyist for the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, as her chief of staff?⁹⁴ Or Alison Harrison, former director of public relations for the Cattlemen's Association, as her official spokeswoman?⁹⁵ Or that one of the new Mad Cow committee appointees is William Hueston, who was paid by the beef industry to testify against Oprah Winfrey in hopes of convicting her of beef “disparagement”?⁹⁶ After a similar conflict of interest unfolded in Britain, their entire Ministry of Agriculture was dissolved and an independent Food Safety Agency was created, whose sole responsibility is to protect the public's health. Until we learn from Britain's lesson, and until the USDA stops treating this as a PR problem to be managed instead of a serious global threat,⁹⁷ millions of Americans will remain at risk.

<hr color="#9999cc" width="80%"> For updates on what may be an evolving crisis, visit the Organic Consumers Association Mad Cow page, www.organicconsumers.org/madcow.htm or, for a periodic email sent to your email address, send a blank email to: DrGregerMadCowUpdates-@lists.riseup.net.

For more background on this issue, read the excellent book Mad Cow U.S.A., the full text of which is available free online at www.prwatch.org; or, see my report “U.S. Violates WHO Guidelines for Mad Cow Disease.”

Michael Greger, M.D., has been the Chief BSE Investigator for Farm Sanctuary (www.nodowners.org) since 1993 and the Mad Cow Coordinator for the Organic Consumers Association since 2001. Dr. Greger has debated the National Cattlemen's Beef Association before the FDA andwas invited as an expert witness at the infamous Oprah Winfrey “meat defamation” trial. He has contributed to many books and articles on the subject, continues to lecture extensively, and currently runs the Mad Cow disease website www.organicconsumers.org/madcow.htm. Dr. Greger is a graduate of the Cornell University School of Agriculture and the Tufts University School of Medicine. He can be reached for media inquiries at (206) 312-8640 or mhg1@cornell.edu.

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In essence, this is how I try to treat all people, but fail miserably because I have unrealistically high standards of myself and others, so for those I have certainly offended, and that means all of you, I am sorry and hope to do better.

 

Oh yes, one thing I realized is that each man gets the woman he deserves, and her good behaviors are a reflection of his piety, her poor behaviors a reflection of his selfishness, and the way he corrects her is a sure sign of his spiritual maturity, and will certainly determine whether he is helping her or just lashing out at his own demon in her, in which case he certainly will have to come back and repeat the lesson again til he gets it.

BD Prabhu, the first paragraph fits me to a "T" and the second is the story of my failed marriage (I took the selfish route). Let me take this opportunity to honor you and your realization.

Just now getting back to the office from my son's first school play, its nice to see the direction this discussion has taken (with the occasional fits and starts along the way).

Caturbahu Prabhu Bhakti-raja, you seem to exhibit the playful (and boasting) mood of Lord Balaram. As I said, I'm not qualified to judge your capacity, despite the impression of you that has formed in my mind. Perhaps you are a born Ksatriya.

While, as a former pupil of Keshava Prabhu (only a class or two, but...), I can't share your view of him, though it's certainly interesting. I would attribute his supposed lack of discernment as to the natures of others to be due to his realized nature--perhaps he is seeing Krishna in the hearts of all.

My memory is poor, but I will certainly convey your regards (was it regards, or was I simply to mention you?) to the Senior Vaishnavas in my community. Sadly, I don't associate with them as frequently and to the degree that would be for my benefit.

Dina Doyal!!!!

Hare Krsna All prabhus

 

Is how varna is seen, exhibited, organized, manifest and so on understood well enough to go on to an other aspect? If not let us have sum well thought out reasonalble questions brought up for discussion.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Sure, let's talk particle physics while we're at it (so, the name-calling part is over then?).

Anyways, my apologies for taking up so much bandwidth in this public discussion (if you wanted a private discussion, go have a private discussion, but there is no need to tell me to go away and think). Kindly *do* go back to a nice, philosophical discussion on pertinent matters.

I'll slink back into my dungeon and view with wonder your great insights. The very slight point I wished to make about DVD being a by-product of KC and not the source of it has been made, embraced, rebuked, etc.

Please honor me with your chastisement if you so desire, or ignore me as the contemptible dog that I am.

Govinda!!!! Govinda!!! Govinda!!!

Thank you prabhu, I do my best.

 

CB-r

Sorry Prabhus to be so impertinent, but I see little evidence of the presence of any Ksatriyas in this discussion (you cannot deny that you are a Brahmana, Brajeshwara Prabhu). Is a Vaishnava Ksatriya not one who remains equipoised under any circumstances?

Karandhar Prabhu's brother Keshava comes to mind when I think of contemporary Ksatriyas. While being a highly trained martial artist who could, no doubt kill anyone in this discussion with a single blow, I have never seen Keshava Prabhu lose his composure. He has always remained patient, calm, and gentlemanly in my (limited) vision.

Is it not safe to say that all in this discussion are but spiritual toddlers (of course, I cannot say this definitively as I have no position)? If we cannot, as Prabhu reminds us, follow "tinad api sunichena..." and be humble, tolerant and give honor to others, there is no question of DVD. We cannot run until we can walk.

I claim no authority, or qualification. The only thing I have claimed to be in this discussion is a sense-enjoyer. Let me now claim to be a mlecca and an offender to the Vaishnavas. Still, I have been blessed with more good fortune than I could earn in a million life-times.

Srila Prabhupad gave so much instruction in such a short period of time. The intensity with which he distributed the mercy of Chaitanyadev leaves all in awe. We toddlers cannot hope to follow his way-beyond-PhD. theses without patient, loving instruction.

Gauranga!!!!

My main concern and reason for all my arguing is the potential for material exploitation of sincere devotees by insincere pseudo-devotees in higher varna positions. We all know this has happened much in the past and pseudo-DVD could enable abuse. I hope you understand.

Brajeshwara Prabhu succinctly sums up the point I was trying to make initially.

Abuse!!! It's about abuse. What use is the medicine if it is tainted by poison? If there is impurity, there will be infection, abcess, disease.

Do we really need to catalog the inummerable times noble ideas have been corrupted at the hands of the insincere?!?

I don't wish to discourage the DVD-fans out there, merely urge caution.

Wow!!! The signal-to-noise ratio in this discussion shot up didn't it? Most of the reasonable discussion can be found on the first few pages (before I got involved to try to make a slight philosophical point).

While some claim to have too little time to look up quotes and continue to post rambling attacks on other posters, I actually had to leave work (where I sneak in a little Audarya time) to pick up kids make dinner, etc.

I'm afraid that what's keeping me in this discussion at this point is ego (now that I've been personally attacked)...I have so far to go.

Flippant sometimes begets flippancy, but you decide to get rough on my gesture, OK so you are a bit of a ruffian, like to rough people up to get their attention? So do I .LOL

 

However, please remember you jumped in here saying.

 

"So, to say we need to artificially introduce DVD to further Bhakti is to have reversed priorities."

Just how exactly does this statement of mine make me a ruffian? I did not intend this as a personal attack. By reasonable measure it's not a personal attack, it's a criticism of an *idea*. That it was taken personally and used as an excuse to begin diatribes and personal attacks should be an indication of the character of those who chose to be so offended.

If someone is claiming to be a Ksatriya, should they also not be equipoised? Being equipoised under all circumstances is one of the qualities of the Vaishnava, is it not? So, if, in a debate, where our ideas are being attacked (not us personally), we lose our cool and begin calling folks "ruffians" and other names, does this not indicate a lack of qualification to be a Ksatriya? If someone is going to wield the power of a mantra that is many times more powerful than conventional atomic weapons, I would hope they would be able to maintain their composure on a web discussion board.

And here your prejudice regarding the position being expounded here in regards to whether or not it is the artificial imposition of anything upon anyone really has no grounds in anything I have written for I assure you I fight against this wherever it is myself all the time.

 

Great!!! and if you read my posts, I don't believe I ever claimed anyone was trying to artificially impose DVD. I said that to do so would (*would*) be a case of reversed priorities. If you choose to see this as an accusation, that's your business and is further indicative of your character.

Thus your presumption is a sign of something artificial that I need to deal with, and somehow get around if I want you to actually hear what I say, and thats not easy because the human tendency to presume under prejudice is a mercurial and flexible talent which fluidly adjusts to prevent something from entering the consciousness which might possibly be healthy for it, MISTAKING it for an OFFENDER and thus activating the immune system and DEFENDING against it.

 

Now, just how much Nyquil are you on?!?!? See, now I'm resorting to personal attacks! (naughty Murali!!!)

For starters, you might want to be more broad minded, and thus specific in giving examples of what a "typical sense enjoyer" is, and furthermore how can you say that discussing Lord Krsna's very own Daivi Varnasrama system is DRY?

OK, I'll give myself as an example of the typical sense enjoyer. Is that specific enough for you? Would the term "Joe Six-Pack" been a better choice to use? Typical Sense Enjoyer: works like a dog all day so he can eat his hamburger (or veggie-burger in my case) at night and watch reality TV shows (conspiracy DVDs in my case) all evening, with nary a God-conscious thought (unless a relative just left their body, in which case we pull out some well-worn plattitudes). The typical sense-enjoyer may even go to Church on Sunday (the Ashram in my case) and sit through the sermon. However, during the sermon (which just might be Srutasrava Prabhu speaking with great conviction about the glories of Guru and Gauranga), the typical sense-enjoyer's mind is preoccupied with the (material?) beauty of the female congregants.

Specific enough? Can you now see how they typical sense-enjoyer might find a discussion of Krishna's own DVD to be dry (no presumptions made on my part as to whether such a discussion actually *is* dry--after all taste is a personal matter), just as I, personally, find discussions of Krishna's own Baseball to be dry?

Anyway, please think about these things, I am past them already, and some of the insight and profound questions other people in this discussion are raising are inspiring me to end with you here.

Merciful Prabhu!! Thank your for your though-inspiring words! Thank you for taking the time to inspire me,thus. End with me as you like, for I aspire to serve Krishna in your blessed heart.

While others have mentioned, let me mention again: whatever you may think of Srila Prabhupad and his instructions, WE WERE UNABLE TO FOLLOW SO MANY OF HIS SIMPLEST INSTRUCTIONS WHILE HIS PASTIMES WERE MANIFEST ON THIS PLANET. What makes you or anyone think they can do so now without the constant association of the Vaishnavas and the guidance of the pure devotees?!?!

In a separate post, someone mentioned my beloved Guru, Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj. While I can certainly not claim to be his representative in any manner, shape and form, and while I hope my conduct does not reflect poorly on him, *he* has had more direct association with Srila A. C. Bhaktivendanta Swami Prabhupad than 90% or more of ACBSP's disciples. He lived with SP for some time during SP's house-holder pastimes and was, in fact, the first public distributor of Back to Godhead magazine. If I trust anyone to know if or how DVD is to be implemented, it is my Gurudev. If I trust anyone to reveal the wishes of my siksa Guru Srila Prabhupad (from whose hands I had the fortune of accepting Maha cookies as a toddler) to me, it is my Gurudev and his representatives.

Now, my Gurudeva has never made the smallest hint that he is the rightful acharya of ISKCON, though he is clearly qualified. Rather, he, with utmost humility, is carrying out the order of his Gurudev, Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj and inspiring all those who take shelter of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math. For this, I have never heard anyone in ISKCON speak of him with anything but respect.

But I digress (I suppose a digression in glorification of Guru is to be excused?).

Dayal Nitai!!! Dayal Nitai!!!!!!!!!!!!

What exactly is artificial introduction?? Are you saying that in your mind people who follow instructions of an Acharya (not a spontaneous activity in the beginning I assure you) are doing the wrong thing? That the Acharya in question was not the genuine article, and thus artificial?

This is certainly a delicate point, and I am certainly not in any way calling into question the purity or authority of Srila Prabhupad. I *do* call into question our ability to understand his instructions, however simple and straightforward they may seem.

Let me reframe your question. Shastra clearly describes the symptoms of Prem/Divine Love. We know that, if we follow Guru faithfully, Prem will come. Does that mean that we should artificially produce the symptoms of Prem? I think not. We take the medicine, and the cure will come spontaneously (not really spontaneously, but by the will of the Divine, but certainly not by our own will-power).

My whole point which you did not address is that, like the symptoms of Krishna Prem, Varnashram Dharma is a symptom of a Krishna Conscious society. When SP says to introduce DVD, just what does he mean? Does he not mean to accomplish this by spreading the mercy of Mahaprabhu?

Madhya 8.5.58: The brahmanas are the intellectuals who can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They are always engaged in the cultivation of knowledge. It does not matter whether one is born in India or outside India. Those who are naturally very heroic and who tend to rule over others are called ksatriyas. Those who tend to produce food by agricultural methods, protect cows and other animals and engage in trade are called vaisyas, or merchants. Those who are not sufficiently intelligent to be brahmanas, ksatriyas or vaisyas are required to serve a master and are called sudras.

If you notice in the above quote, the use of the words "naturally", and "tend". Those are indications that this is not an imposed system (as the current hereditary caste system is), but rather, comes about due to the natures of the persons in society.