Murali_Mohan_das

Wow, Prabhu. Your true character is beginning to shine through. No, wait, your true *material* nature is showing. You remain, as you are almost fully-aware, sat-chit-ananda.

And how do you support yourself oh' pure one. You said you work for the government but declined to say in what capacity. Surely you do something usefull besides suck off the taxpayers money. BTW shouldn't you be working instead of posting. That makes you a thief of public funds in addition to being a self-righteous little twit.

If you want to make this a thread about me and divert attention from the actual topic at hand, then be my guest. I'm a vain and selfish person who enjoys talking about himself in addition to be a self-righteous little twit.

My title is "Systems Software Analyst", though I pride myself on not ever claiming something is outside of my job description. In addition to providing greater access to government (I helped develop an application to allow the public to listen to government meetings via the web in addition to greatly streamlining the process by which administrative staff generate web and printed agendas for these meetings).

In general, I'm in the "buck stops here" group of people in my organization. If an issue cannot be addressed by first or second-level support, one of the three folks in our group gets it.

As for posting on the taxpayer's dime--you'll find I post a lot less frequently than you do since I *am* often doing "real" work. I chose to take my boss on his word when he said, "We're more valuable for what we know than what we do".

So, yes, I post at the taxpayer's expense when there are no "burning fires" and my long-term projects can be delayed by procrastination. Would you rather I do my cyber-loafing on the sports trivia sites (rhetorical question)?

And please quit calling me ji. Your mock humility and affection are rather sickening actually.

OK, Prabhu. Whatever you like.

"Tanner of leather" huh? That coming from someone who no doubts drinks commercial milk killing calves in the process.

Annother assumption making an "ass" out of "u" and "me". I can't say I completely avoid conventional milk, but, in our home, we usually use rice, soy, or grain milks. We sometimes buy yogurt, but almost always "organic" yogurt.

By the way, it's my understanding that, in traditional India, the tanner would only use the hide of the dead animals...unlike the day-trader who takes his money out of the hands of the still-living dupe.

BTW what you are doing is called transference. You are still whinning about your dad losing 140,000 that you think should have went to you. Confront your daddy directly little boy and stop making others a surrogate for him.

And what you are doing is called psychoanalysis, for which I never paid you--neither did I solicit any free advice. Get a degree in it and you can make an "honest" living. Psychotherapy pays better than hypnotherapy the last time I checked.

Another self righteous initiate of NM. They seem to be the majority.

And now Vaishnava aparadha to boot (in relation to disciples of Sripad Narayan Maharaj).

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaja is my shelter.

Unlike many of my humble and tolerant God-siblings, I most certainly *am* self-righteous (and even a hypocrite at times).

You may even see my spit-worthy face at San Francisco Ratha Yatra, Theist Prabhu. I beg for the mercy of your foot-dust on my head. For as fallen as you may be, you are certainly light years beyond me in conscious evolution.

Hypnotherapy and massage are such wonderful healing arts, Theist-ji.

What a pity that you are not able to support yourself by those alone and have to resort to the moral equivalent of being a tanner of leather. No, actually, being a tanner of leather might be preferrable.

Wealth and independence, are, obviously, relative to one's standard of living. If one is able to live off of savings doesn't have to work half-time or more to pay one's rent, that person is independently wealthy in my estimation, whether it's because they have great sums of money or modest sums of money and a modest lifestyle. Conversely, for someone like Michael Jackson, no amount of money is sufficient. A starlet divorcee might feel unduly constrained by receiving only a $30,000/month alimony payment.

Anyways, defining or redefining what "independently wealthy" means is sophistry, to be sure, when the real question is how shall we expend our precious energy?

This weekend, since I was rather agitated by our exchange, Theist-ji, I was discussing this matter with two senior Godbrothers, one of whom had tried and failed to make money day-trading (but had been mentored by a person who, he assured me, had been making $5,000/day during the tech boom). I wish I had been able to record the conversation, since he brought up many good points.

One good point: the stock market is a zero-sum game. That means, for every dollar a person "wins", another person has lost a dollar (or two people have lost $.50, etc.). So, the only way to make a profit is if somebody else has a loss. You are directly profiting from the loss of others.

Now, as others have speciously pointed out, all business involves risk (one could go so far as to call it "speculation"). However, while the farmer is taking on some risk (and actually breaking a sweat doing so), the farmer is also generating some actual benefit to society.

How is the day-trader benefiting society by taking the money of the less fortunate?

The other devotee clarified that $40 million number I had earlier given. Turns out it was on the Russian market and the value in dollars was closer to $10 million.

Still....that's $10 million of Srila Prabhupada's money that was lost on the stock market.

That's only one instance.

How many more have their been (Godbrother mentioned a sannyasi in our own sanga who lost most of his "nest egg")?

I liked the $40 million number because it is ironically almost the same amount as the Gurukuli court case judgement.

Now, while I might feel some legitimate material claim to my father's lost $140,000, I have never made any claim on the $40 million, despite being a Gurukula alumnus from that era. I felt like I was very well cared for in Gurukula and was in no way abused.

Because that $10 million was lost, how much greater is the burden of that court judgement on the "body of Srila Prabhupada"?

As for eveything belonging to Krishna, Theist Prabhu, the reminder is always welcome (since there is much forgetfullness), but the idea is not hard to grasp. My 6 and 4 year olds accept that (and Krishna being God) most readily. Even *they* remind me of that happy fact.

Not so by any means. I have no family to support, no car, no house I live in a rent controlled old apartment building, no health insurance except the county clinic for the poor, I am on the universal lifeline telephone program for th poor so we can call for help should an emergency arise, no social security checks from the government, barely enough money in my account to buy and sell a block of cheap stock. I live far below the poverty line and I might add I live in a fairly content mind since I don't desire to accumulate anything enough to be motivated to go work for it.

 

Got anymore silly little statements, phony apologies or would you care to just whine some more about how you have to pay back your student loan.

Day-trading is purely exploitative (name one direct (no trickle-down economics accepted) benefit to society from an individual day-trading).

At least with "the pick", the pick-ee gets a sticker or a hat or a CD from the arrangement.

Yeah let me make it clear as well I wouldn't encourage people to daytrade because you can get your clock cleaned and a lot of people do lose everything doing it so your point is well taken. For the most part wall street is a scam no doubt about it but in my experience daytrading is better odds than any casino game and intelligence, and experience can help you out to some degree.

So true!!!

The reason I say the stock market is a means for the rich to soak the middle class is because, really, only someone who is independently wealthy (like Theist, apparently), can afford to play that game in any significant way.

You should really only invest money that you can afford to burn. Investing your rent or food money in the market is a really bad idea, no?

I actually *do* know a devotee lady who married a professional poker player. I don't know him well, but can tell just from his demeanor that he is a very shanti, mode-of-goodness person and worthy of all respect.

Before my first son was due, I was content to work minimally, live simply and spend a lot of time working on music. With a child on the way, it was obvious that I needed something more secure (and with health benefits). This was in the year 2000 at the height of the first Internet bubble and everybody urged me to go for the stock options at a start-up. My heart screamed too loudly in protest to let me do that, and through the mercy of Gurudeva (it really wasn't much of my own doing at all), I ended up here working for the government. In hindsight, it was an intelligent decision as my chances of hitting it big in the boom would have been about the same as Theist-ji's chances of winning the lottery.

Now, if Maya Devi, in her infinite mercy, is deluding Theist into believing that day-trading is an honorable way to make a living (just as she is deceiving me into believing that working for the government is an honorable profession), what complaint can I have?

Theist Prabhu. Please don't disappoint me. Bless me with your shoe upon my head!!!!

Anways, I think reception on Radio Paramatma is a little static-y for Theist-ji today.

I'm so clever I make myself sick...

Note to self: Bhaja Govinda...

AM-ji,

Why should I be offended? This is a public discussion. Your points are welcome and are well-taken. Thank you!

I'm not trying to criticize Theist or anybody for how they make their living (quite a few Vaishnavas (some of them I daren't call "aspiring") earn a living growing sacred herbs).

My hope is that others (who are as gullible and naive as I am) can learn from my father's (and countless others) experience, and avoid learning the lesson the hard way.

Military-Industrial complex ki BOOOOO!!!

The way I look at it the military industrial complex has made life so difficult and such high taxes that I can't critisize people for trying to make a living. I have daytraded and even made money playing video games on the internet and too be honest I am not ashamed of it. I honestly wish life was a Vaikuntha temple and all the worlds population was brahamanas and there was no military industrial complex but I am not ashamed that I have done my best to be as honest as possible and still make a living in the most horrible of conditions at least from a spiritual perspective. I welcome the day the Kalki avatar arrives and puts and end to the military industrial complex government of high taxation etc but until then I do my best to get by as honestly and cleanly as possible. I know you aren't talking to me so i apologize if I am offending you by responding to your post.

Looks like I've managed to irk you Prabhu. Perhaps that *was* my goal after all--I've admitted to being envious. Let's save the apologies for later, though.

You're right that I'm bitter. I was bitter about the stock market before my father ever placed his first bet. I thought the stock market was a crock of crud when I first heard about it.

Srila Prabhupada's mood can certainly be characterized as bitter when it comes to the British Raj, science, and materialism in general. As much time as I spend here trying to defend science as being yet another tool for preaching, I can also see how this bitterness has a definite constructive and instructive purpose.

I pray that this bitterness in my heart towards the religion of Economics (which *is* a religion after all, based on the premise of greed (limited resources and unlimited desires)) and the countless atrocities carried out daily in its name (melanine in your cat food or farmed fish anyone?), has been placed there by a Higher Power for some Greater Purpose.

I won't bother answering your point for point and defend how I earn my food and shelter as it really is none of your business.

It was none of my business until you mentioned it (even in passing) in a public forum. At that point you are subtly (or not so subtly) influencing others (especially the many who look to you as an authority--as I do). I take it as my duty to not let such seemingly minor things slide by without comment.

Think what you like. It is obvious that you are bitter about your dad losing "your" 140,000. Got news kid, that $140,000 was never your dad's or your's, it always belonged to Krsna. God gives and God takes away.

 

Just make sure whatever business you get into is perfectly moral. Lot's of devotees are into IT which is connected up to child pornograhy, porn in general, terrorist communication vehicle and internet gambling.

Wow!! I never expected a personal attack from you of all people!

For the record, I work for the government. Think what you like about that, but I can assure you none of the things you mentioned are part of our business model.

Now it's time for apologies...I'm sorry I mentioned you by name at the start of this thread. That was inconsiderate and rude on my part. No doubt, the same objective could have been achieved without putting you in the hot seat.

I offer my obeisances to you with all the sincerity and humility I can muster.

May you win the lotto and build many temples and publish many books.

Theist Prabhu ki jai!!

What are you saying ?? i dont get you ?.....Pls can anybody explain ?

 

Haribol

Beggar-ji is jokingly referencing a long-standing debate between the aspiring Vaishnavas as to whether we (spirit souls--jivas) originated from Goloka (the sweetest Heaven) or whether we came from the brilliant effulgence (Brahman) emanating from the Lord.

Some have stated that, ultimately, the answer to this question is inconceivable (acintya).

As for the real McCoy, perhaps Beggar implies that each of us has an eternal nature. If your eternal nature is as an animal in Goloka, then that's what you'll be when you return and/or get there.

Personally, I think Beggar Prabhu is a Gator in Goloka

"Money gets directed to ambition, and not to need."

Another consideration...Karma!!

If we get karma for voting a demon into political office, wouldn't we also get karma for providing capital to demons to further their exploitation of the developing world?

Of course, we get karma for any actions we undertake that are not accepted as service by the Lord. So, if we, say, buy a Ford Explorer for our own enjoyment, it would be similar to investing in Ford stock.

Ultimately, as gHari Prabhu says, we wish to minimize our investment of energy (money, consciousness, etc.) into the material world.

Maybe I'm having a "Guruvani Moment", but I fail to see how day-trading can be harmonized with Vaishnavism. In my mind, being a good day-trader is the same as knowing all the horses down at the track very well--there's some chance involved, but, on a given day, you'll call the winner.

I am with Ameritrade, a discount broker. $9.99 in and $9.99 out. My broker earns their money by setting up the very best trading platform for guys like me, the crumb snatchers.

So then, you *do* make $20 for your broker minimum each day you trade. Not bad for them considering there's zero work involved (assuming you're doing everything online).

It has worked for me as I am only now having to go back daytrading massage and hypnosis as my funds are running low. I have been living off of what I acquired in in 1999. It has served me well.

I should be happy for your good fortune (and intelligence) and not envious. The idealist in me doesn't want to believe it's possible. I imagine, for every person like you, there are fifty like my Dad (I know a couple personally) who end up losing their shirts in the long run.

My desire here is not to criticize you, but to warn others. If they think they can earn a living this way, they may be very disappointed.

Didn't an ISKCON Guru lose $40 million of ISKCON funds a few years back in the stock market?

Is it gambling. I don't see it that way. Gambling is a game of chance whereas daytrading comes with an adundance of knowledge in the company. BTW I don't invest. I am in and out the same day or at the most 1 or 2 days. It's called momentum trading.

An abundance of knowldege in the company, eh? From what source does that knowledge come--quarterly reports and analysts? The writers of those reports and the analysts are pure of heart and without ulterior motive? Or do you sit on the Board of Directors of Ford?

How much knowledge did you have of what was really happening at Enron back in 1999? The cheaters and the cheated.

I think opening a small business is much more akin to gambling myself. Certainly much more risk.

Be that as it may, a small business will not survive for long unless it serves a useful purpose. What useful purpose does day trading serve besides serving the trader (and often serving the trader poorly)? At least with a small business, success can be directly tied to the efforts of the proprietors.

But gambling or not gambling I never made any vows. And one can still view whatever comes in as Krsna's and avoid greed while daytrading whereas 99.999999% of ordinary workers are deeply attached to the fruit of their labors.

Hey, I didn't make any formal vows either, and I have taken Hari Nama (but not diksha) from Gurudeva. Someone asked Gurudeva once, "So, you are mentioning the 10 offenses to be avoided but not mentioning the 4 regulative principles. Do we still need to follow them?" I don't recall Gurudeva's exact response, but it was akin to "Of course!!"

What I take from this is: the four regulative priciples are not directly related to our practicing life--rather, they are a prerequisite, they are guidelines for civilized living--whether or not any formal vow is there.

PS for anyone nterested I have found Ford (F) to be a good safe play. Cheap, small movements in price, small gains but safe.

Or, you can just send your money to me for burning.

It's a two-way street with two hour parking and street cleaning on Thursdays. Lots of potholes and speedbumps too--and the occasional sinkhole.

But seriously. There's a difference between "guru" with a little "g" and "Guru" with a big "G". There are many "gurus", but only one "Guru" (who is coming in many forms).

Yes, for "guru", there might be some question of offense, but for Adi-Guru?

If we're talking about Adi-Guru, then the question really is, can Krishna offend his devotee?

And in the general sense: Why so many fall down?

 

Because they have no faith in the process. If you know what happened in the past in our movement, and you see what is going on now in many places: controversies, scandals, neophyte mentality at every step even in people who have been around for three decades - who would not have their doubts? Thus many vote with their feet and leave our movement. Which religious organization lost more than 90% of their members over the years like we did?

Many aspiring Vaishnavas may have the impression that, before ISKCON, the Gaudiya Vaishnava line was free of controversy and scandal. The more familiar we become with the history,the more we see that, aside from the circumstances, there is nothing unique about today's situation.

There have always been scandals and "fall downs". Even in the time of Mahaprabhu (was it Chota Hari Das?).

This is why the wise make a distinction between the "aspiring" side and the "inspired" side of each of us.

Rather than becoming disheartened by all of the cheating and falsehood, let us become even more determined to fully surrender to the will of the Lord which, surely, will rectify our vision.

It can be - when from rational and sensible trading it changes into compulsive and often irrational risk taking in order to get rich quick.

 

So many economic activities involve taking risks with your money. Taking risks is not gambling. Gambling is a compulsive behavior when we risk money to get rich quick and we are obsessed with winning.

Thanks for the reply, Lowborn-ji! I see your points while remaining skeptical as to whether such thing exists as "rational and sensible trading"--at least in regards to day-trading.

Unlike traditional stock investments, where a person buys stock in a company based on its past performance, business model, and future outlook, making profits primarily on dividends, by its nature, day-trading involves trying to capitalize on the volatility of the market--which smacks of gambling.

I've joked in the past that, each morning, I pray for the Western financial system to collapse since, as observed by the band James, "Money gets directed to ambition, and not to need."

Another question, if I may. If gambling is recognized by its compulsive nature, would you say that a professional poker player, who is very adept at counting cards, reading people's faces, and keeping his/her cool, is not breaking the regulative principles by engaging in his/her profession?

Theist Prabhu recently mentioned how he is able to maintain his existence without working 9 to 5 for "the man".

One method he mentioned was "day-trading". I have to wonder if he actually makes any money doing this or if he's just making money for his broker.

You see, as I've mentioned before on this forum, my good father is currently depressed. One reason is, over the past so many years he has lost over $140,000 dollars "day-trading" (maybe I'm selfish, but I can't help thinking of how I'm still basically paying interest only on my student loans). This was concealed from me (not that I have a right to know). When my dad had a good day, I'd hear about it. Needless to say, there weren't too many of those days. He managed to delude himself for years into believing that sitting in front of the computer all day watching numbers go up and down as he fretted was a viable way to earn a living. Meanwhile, his sadhana, seva, and audarya were neglected.

Materially-speaking, I've seen stock markets as even more crooked than the casinos in terms of how the odds are stacked. Basically, stock-markets appear to me to be a way for the very rich to soak the middle class of their hard-earned disposable income.

From the Vaishnava perspective, is speculative investment to be considered gambling?

At least this works, http://www.vedabase.com/index.php?main=support

That's good, but vedabase.com and vedabase.net appear to be hosted on two different servers (two vastly different IP addresses at least)...

vedabase.org. 3601 IN A 203.29.209.20

www.vedabase.com. 3000 IN A 65.254.254.34

The vedabase.com page looks like support for the desktop (not web) version of the Vedabase.

So, are you implying that Srila Prabhupada's Sweet Lord was feeling a bit sadistic that day?

Didn't the bull also have free will? Or was it a fully-surrendered bull being used as a puppet by the Lord?

If a hero in a drama was not tested then how would be know that he is a hero?

"All the world's a stage,

And all the men and women merely players.

They have their exits and their entrances,

And one man in his time plays many parts,

His acts being seven ages."

--From As You Like It (II, vii, 139-143) by William Shakespeare.

 

Here's a famous "Prabhupada said" quote: "Krsna knows everything except when we will surrender." How is this? Because the Lord created our minute free will. Then this is all by His will or desire. Reality the Beautiful. Remember, He is for Himself and by Himself.

But, of course, kind sir. "When" we will surrender, perhaps He may choose not to know. But "if" we are surrendered is immediately obvious to Him, no?

Horrors!!! It's down for when I check it as well.

I mirrored the entire Vedabase to one of the servers at home (using "wget" under Linux) not long ago. It would be nice if there were a few Vedabase mirrors available on the 'net.

Any volunteers??? If you have an existing web site, or are running your own server on a dedicated IP address (I'm using non-business DSL with a dynamic IP address and DynDNS.org), it wouldn't be hard to do.

For the last two days I have been getting an error message that says the file can't be found when I try to access vedabase.net.

 

Is anybody else having that problem and does anybody know what is up?

 

It's been at least two days now, so it seems more than just some service time for the server.

I think the person who posted this letter has invaded the privacy of Srila Saraswati Goswami.

I think he has taken liberties he had no right to take.

 

I am speaking for myself as I can't speak for anybody else.

That is why I use the word I when I say what I feel like I want to say.

 

I think that says enough.

The sincere have no secrets and no shame (since they shamelessly spread the glories of Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga). What need have they for privacy?

If Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (or Srila Swami Maharaja Prabhupada) was so concerned with the privacy of his correspondence, no doubt he could have instructed his disciples to keep his letters private or destroy them upon reading them. For that matter, ciphers and codes have been in use for centuries.

Guruvani Prabhu,

Your deep grasp of the Vaishnava conception is evident from your more level-headed expositions. Yet, there appears to be a war raging inside your mind.

A very good friend of mine once pointed out to me that almost all of my songs start with the word "I". It gave me pause to think.

In the post below, you start five sentences with the word "I". What does this say about your statement?

To satisfy my interest, can you point out just why it is you are so offended by these letters being posted and why the poster might be inimical to Bhakti? I'm oblivious to any reason.

If we see Srila Prabhupada (Bhaktisiddhanta) as having come here to deliver us from misery, why would he object to us finding nourishment from any words he had written or spoken?

I think personal letters should stay exactly that.

 

This was a personal and private letter.

 

I don't think anyone has the right to make these kinds of personal letters for public display.

 

I also question the motives of the anonymous guest who has posted this letter.

 

Could be some enemy of the Saraswata sampradaya as far as that goes.

 

I don't think that anyone should be allowed to anonymously post such private and personal letters as this.

 

the anonymous posting is immediate grounds for suspicion as far as I am concerned.

 

I don't think these person is a friend of the Saraswata camp.

 

I think he is a trouble-maker.

Can you explain just why an omniscient being Who resides in the heart of every living entity would need to test a devotee to ascertain their degree of purity?

Doesn't the Lord know us better than we know ourselves?

All objects in the whole manifested world are ingredients for serving Krsna.

Amazing letters! This sentence jumped out, though, as giving so much hope.

Hare Krishna.

 

What do you think? What is the difference between a "test" and a sinful reaction? Or should we consider them the same? And does it matter, or should we just aspire after Krishna Consciousness anyway? Would like to hear all your opinions.

 

Thank you.

This is an important distinction, since we are still receiving the fruits of our past actions (Karma--though it is said the Lord will allow His servants to burn off their Karma in less horrific ways than if they were unrepentant sense-enjoyers) even as we embark on the path of Devotion. This verse from Sri Prapanna Jivanamrita struck me as particularly profound:

http://www.mandala.com.au/prapanna/ch-3.html

3.9

sarvatra tad anukampa darsanad eva tat-siddhih -

tat te 'nukampam susamiksamano

bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam

hrd-vag-vapurbhir vidadhan namas te

jiveta yo mukti-pade sa daya-bhak

<table width="95%"> <!-- Table 25 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Sri Brahmanah </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

This is accomplished only when one can see the grace of the Supreme Lord in every situation -

"One who, in the hope of achieving Your grace, goes on enduring the inauspicious fruit of his own karma, and passes his days practicing devotion unto You in every thought, word, and deed - such a person is heir to the land of freedom: he attains to the plane of positive immortality."

<!-- Table 26 Row 01 --> <table width="95%"><tbody><tr><td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Lord Brahma</td></tr></tbody></table>

what you said is correct,and he wants to test us to see if we are really what we say and they you are not just saying you are a devotee.

This sounds more like Christian theology (cf. the Book of Job).

Can anybody cite shastra confirming this is correct Vaishnava siddhanta?

I like to think of Sri Krishna as a cowherd boy playing in the forest with His friends. He may have time for a wrestling match or a practical joke, but, as I envision Him, He has no interest in "tests".