Murali_Mohan_das

I keep getting time-out errors trying to connect to:

http://www.mandala.com.au/

Can anybody else connect?

Help, Muralidhar Prabhu!!

You're right about me. My devotion is anything but pure. Unlike the gopis, I am still seeking liberation from misery rather than perpetual service engagement. Once again, Gurudev is my "gold standard".

As for proof. The proof is in your heart. Your brain will never know what your heart may know.

Govinda!!

By the way ur not serving ur Lord arent u?Ur trying to enjoy his world(which no proof it ever exists)by chanting the Mantra and going there,its for ur endless pleasures ur doing it,ur selfish motives makes u wish to renounce the world and go there,so where isthe service comes here?

Why do u need a GURUDEVA to tell u what to do?Who is qualified as one anyways.

WHERE IS THE PROOF OF KRSNA and GOLOKA first of all?If he is that powerful let him appear in front of me...or even u who is been chanting and not partying...

Hahaha,ur funny,so now u did a U turn to ur theories and telling me ur going to do ur worldly duties?So then y make fun of people who enjoy pleasures.

It sounds that ur the one who is jealous of those people and expect them to suffer from diseases?

No U-turn. If you go back and read the thread, you mock people who engage in solitary Bhajan. I defend them. Never did I say *everybody* should be a bhajananandi. Did I?

If you want to talk about me (and I'd rather talk about Gurudev, Mahaprabhu, and Radha-Krishna), I'll be the first to admit that I am an envious wretch despite having been granted such a conducive life by Guru and Krishna.

In Gurudev, though, I see no such jealousy or envy. He is my yardstick by which I measure myself and everything else.

So ur saying if u chant Mantra u will still get sick but u wont suffer.Go find a ISKCONi who has Diabetes or Heart Disease and ask him if he is not in pain,if he does suffer then where is ur theory?Lets see if u get sick(im not wishing u do,but u will get sick sometimes)and during those times r u telling me u dont suffer at all?

If you note my writing, I try to be very careful. When I say "Vaishnava", I mean "Vaishnava", not "aspiring-Vaishnava." A "real" Vaishnava is a very rare person to find. If somebody is chanting and still suffering, then their chanting is not yet pure. Still, though, may people, while still suffering, are getting great relief from chanting the Holy Name--even if their chanting is "hazy".

Y should anyone be jealous of ur Krsna if he is not even here...

Exactly. If you're so convinced he's not real, then just forget about him and go on with your "enjoying."

Y r there no one to lift a mountain in a finger nor shower rain of arrows nowadays?

You need to get out more. Gurudev is holding this whole world up with his pinkie. How can you be so blind?

Y dont u use ur brain for a change and seek for proof of ur soul and ur past births if u r so sure u existed before?

Well talking with you is inspiring me to do the work for which I'm being paid. That is an amazing and wondrous thing!! Bless your heart!

Hare Krishna!

If Visnu came to rescue Prahalada lets see if he comes for u,go try this urself before u brag about ur LORD..

The Lord is saving me countless times each moment!! Thanks for asking!

Gauranga!!!

Yes it is certainly lazy to give up even before fighting for the pleasures ofthe world saying oh well these dont last anyway,but what if there is no Goloka?

You may have your doubts, but I don't have so many. While I may have never glimpsed Goloka proper, I've been blinded by enough divine brilliance to be quite assured that, ultimately, all is good.

have u ever seen a man who has been there and come back and told u how great it feels being in GOLOKA?

Better than that, I know a man who is there *NOW*. He's there *and* he's here telling us what it is like. I call him Gurudev.

Where do u live?And who have u partied with so far?Prolly no one and prolly u dont have the self esteem nor the skill nor the looks nor the money to get the attention u want...

You can see from my user info, I live in Santa Cruz, California, USA. If you're not familiar with it, it is one of the more desirable places to live in the US.

On these forums recently, I recalled attending my first rock concert and "partying" back-stage with many prominent celebrities of the day.

My father's college friend was an Executive VP at MTV Networks, so I've attended MTV Music Video Awards and MTV Movie Awards ceremonies and parties perhaps half a dozen times.

I attended (a prestigious) college in NYC (New York City), where I spent some time in the more trendy clubs, occasionally dancing 'til dawn. You can judge for yourself whether I'm good-looking, but I don't recall ever having to wait at the ropes like the "regular folks"--of course, having beautiful women with you helps too.

I've had more lovers than I can count on my two hands (one of them had formerly been model for a Bacardi Rum ad). They didn't find my appearance all that offensive.

I've tried just about any drug that I've cared to try (some more than once).

Enough partying credentials? Can I stop bragging now?

I tell you with all honesty--none of those material pleasures can compare with the joy of hearing Gurudev say my name (the one he gave me) with affection (which has happened once).

Where is GOLOKA?

Where is Krsna?

Everywhere. It's a real shame you can't see that for yourself. Perhaps if you opened your eyes?

Why didnt ur PPada go to Kenya or Ethiopia or anywhere and start his mission,y only in the comforts of USA?

It's a silly question. If you want to start a world-wide movement--go to the country that houses the UN!! Srila Prabhupada's disciples have carried his message to every corner of the Earth.

How come he died and had a ugly old body for most part of his life?If partying gives u diabetes and all that,how come he had

innumerable disease and die?Y didnt he live a long healthy life with Tejas and strenght and die a ICHA Mruthyu or y did he die at all

Y didnt he go to GOLOKA directly?

He too was already in Goloka, long before he left his body. Do you have any idea just what Srila Prabhupada did between '67 and '77 at an already advanced age? A mere "mortal" would have keeled over after a year or two of what he did. Sleeping two hours a night so he could translate as much as possible. How long can *you* function on two hours a night? That and travelling the world many times.

Srila Prabhupada was part of the "suicide squad" as it is called by Gurudev. He was truly "dying to live". He gave his every breath during that time so that you and I could suffer less (if we have the wisdom to utilize the fruits of his labor).

What is Indra doing enjoying all Apsaras and Rambas

Given a choice wont u enjoy the sensual pleasures of earth?

Maybe u never gota chance and maybe u dont ahve the resources and maybe ur stuck in a middle class family thats conservative

U make it sound like its so easy to get all pleasures and as if uchoose Krsna

U dont have the pleasures so u chose the easy way out,to sit and chant some one who isnt even here and say oh that feels so good

even a drug addict says he feels good getting high

even a sports fan feels elated seeing his Hero play...

But atleast they are here to see where is ur Krsna and where is this GOLOKA?

Have u read the Emperors New clothes?

Indra is enjoying the fruits of his Karma. Unless he's a Vaishnava, though, he is still bound by those things which he is enjoying and will fall from his position when his karmic account is depleted.

How many lifetimes have I spent enjoying the "pleasures" of this Earth? What has it gotten me but further entangled?

The difference between material and spiritual pleasures is: material pleasures are sweetest at the beginning and grow more bitter over time. Due to our conditioning, spiritual life may seem bitter at first, but it grows increasingly sweet as we progress.

I haven't read the book you mention, but I enjoyed the film "The Emperor's New Groove".

It really *is* painful to try to make sense of your writing.

The body of the Vaishnava may appear to be diseased. The Vaishnava is tolerating apparent illness with no mental distress. Their hearts, minds, and soul-force are directed solely towards the Lord. What would be unbearable pain to us is not the slightest distraction to them.

Now, contrast that with somebody like LBJ (Lyndon B. Johnson, 36th US President),who, after the assassination of President Kennedy became the most powerful man in the world. Perhaps wracked by guilt for all of the actions he had taken in pursuit of power, he did not seek re-election and died a short time later, a broken, depressed man.

Gurudev has never advised me to renounce my worldly duties and go perform solitary bhajan. That is sometimes accepted (and even glorified), but not really encouraged by the spiritual descendents of Srila Prabhupad. Rather, he advises us to follow Sri Krishna's advice in Bhagavad Gita. We must continue doing our duties. However, as Vaishnavas, we will do our duties without attachment to the results. All of our actions (even the seemingly mundane ones) will be done in a mood of devotion to the Lord.

As the Lord wishes, we may be rewarded with great material facility (not all Vaishnavas are poor mendicants--See Pundarik Vidhyanidhi for a prominent example of an apparent sense-enjoyer who was really a great Vaishnava). However, the Lord, in His Mercy usually awards riches to those devotees of his who are in the best position to engage those facilities in service.

To answer one of your questions: yes, you can "enjoy" mundane "pleasures" indefinitely. Let me ask you, at the end of it, what will that get you?

The real disease is called hrd-rogam or "heart disease". We're not talking about angina here. We're talking about jealousy towards our Sweet Lord. It's about failing to see that our greatest pleasure and well-being comes not from serving our own whims, but serving the Lord.

If that was the case dou think folks who dont party never get Diabetes Cancer or any disease in their whole lives?

Then why didn't Krsna instruct this to Arjuna and co and ask them not to fight for the useless kingdom,pride and wealth and just chant Maha mantra?

From what ive known even ur so called Enlightened Guru Prabupada suffered from lots of diseases and died.

Ur theory is more like sour grapes,what have u enjoyed to conclude that its all Mundane sense enjoyment,if it is so mundane then y do u enjoy it,im sure u have enjoyed sensual pleasures if u had gotten it,maybe u dont have the confidence to get what u want so u conclude like a FOX that couldnt reach the grapes as sour grapes.

Isnt it contradicting on one hand u guys believe that Krsna fought in the mahabaratha war(which was for kingdom,ascertainign superiority etc)and onthe other hand u say only Krsnaloka or Goloka is better

if that was the case why does visnu save the Indras from demons,y cant the demons enjoy mundane pleasures and visnus so called devotees devas be taken to goloka?

Im sure u also will suffer lots of diseases and eventually die,just cause u sit and chant doesnt mean ur free from diseases.

R u telling me u never got sick and even if udid u got cured miraculously?

Reading "Divine Aspiration", I came across a passage that reminded me of our good friend on these forums, Guruvani. Could he be inspired by Vrindavan Das Thakur?

I couldn't find an online copy at the Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math web site (http://scsmath.com), but I *did* find the passage here:

http://www.mahaprabhu.net/greatness.html

LOVE AND ABUSE

 

In seeing the mood of humility as expressed in different ways by Krsnadas Kaviraj Goswami and Vrndavan das Thakur, I also came to some revolutionary understanding about this.

 

While writing Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Kaviraj Goswami has expressed so much humility, humility of such a degree, that he says "My position is the worst; I am a sinner far worse than Jagai and Madhai, I am lower than the worm in the stool. If anyone hears my name, his merit will be diminished; and if anyone speaks my name, he commits sin - such kind of wretched person I am. But the grace of Nityananda Prabhu has taken me up from such a nasty pit, taken me to Rupa-Sanatana, to Raghunatha das, and to divine Vrindavan. I should not proclaim this, I should not speak in such a way, that "I have got something" - but if I do not say so, then it will show ingratitude to Nityananda Prabhu, I would be a traitor to Him. So I shall have to say, to admit, "I have got something"; and that is by the grace of Nityananda. It is all His property, His grace, otherwise there is nothing, no worth at all in me." With so much humility Kaviraj Goswami is approaching the public and appealing to them to come to Gaura-Nityananda.

 

But Vrindavan das Thakur, in his writing, says, "I appeal most fervently and with the greatest humility to you all: accept Nityananda and Sri Gauranga! You'll get the best benefit of your life. This I urgently beg you, with the utmost humility, with a straw between my teeth. But if such appeal of mine fails, and if still you want to put blame on Nityananda-Gauranga, then I just kick you! I kick such a person, demoniac person."

 

 

eta parihare o ye papi ninda kare

tabe lathi maron ta'ra sirera upare

(C. Bhag. Madhya 11:63)

 

 

"If in spite of hearing the glories of Nityananda, one blasphemes Him, then I kick the head of such a sinful person."

 

To this, the ordinary commentators will say, "Kaviraj Goswami and others, they are humiliating themselves so much, they are appealing in such a humble way. But this Vrndavan das! What kind of egoistic fellow is he? He says, he kicks those who do not come to hear his Gaura-Nityananda. He'll kick them! Such a boast, so proud he is - is he a Vaisnava? Is this type of person a Vaisnava? Trnad api sunicena, taror api sahisnuna: more humble than straw, more tolerant than a tree -- is he of this type?"

 

 

A NEW PATH

 

This is how Vrindavan Thakur's statement is met by the ordinary thinkers; but not long after joining the Gaudiya Math, I heard a revolutionary remark from our Guru Maharaj, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, in which we find a most peculiar meaning or explanation. He said: "For those who had no chance, no possibility of entering into devotional service, by this statement Vrindavan Thakur has created a path. For those who had no chance of getting any service, Vrindavan Thakur has made that chance by kicking them." How is it so? Guru Maharaj explained, "Vrindavan Thakur has pronounced such a bold expression against those unbelieving persons to wound their feelings, so that Krsna will come to their aid. Just as, if any attendant or son of a gentleman does wrong to some other person, then that person's guardians will come to help their dependent: "Oh, what he has done to you, don't mind it; look here, I am giving something to you - be pleased, and go on, happily..." So, because Vrindavan Thakur has in such an ostentatious way apparently committed some wrong against that particular unbelieving section, it will draw Krsna's attention; Mahaprabhu's special attention will be drawn towards them, that "My son has done something wrong, some damage to you; don't take it badly, but 'forgive and forget' now, I am giving something to you, come..."

 

In this way Vrindavan Thakur has made a new path, by threatening the unbelievers in Gaura-Nityananda; by his strong remark of very abusive character, he has given the chance to those fellows to draw the greater and more special attention of the authority.

Yep. Count me in the red-yellow-cone camp. Everybody in this discussion is right in their own way.

This is yet another example of the blind wise men arguing about the elephant.

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Once we had only two feuding camps: the red triangle camp and the yellow circle camp. Now we have a third - the red-yellow cone camp. The coneheads can see meaning in both other camps, but acknowledge that boh are correct, inconceivably, in eternity.

 

The big fish can swim to both sides of the river. The shoreline is sometimes on this side of the marginal line in the sand, but sometimes it is on that side of the line. Free will can move the fish and shoreline. It has to be, to be free will.

Nice!! This is along the lines of what I wanted to post to the "Intelligent Designer" discussion a while back.

While the Lord is planting the seeds and setting creation in motion, the universe is unfolding somewhat autonomously (by the Sweet Will of the Lord, of course).

There is no proof the other worlds exist,atleast enjoy this world as much u can by working hard and reaching ur goals,lazy people and losers sit and chant a mantra and not enjoy what u got in front and then die..

Folks intent on enjoying their senses often end up dying painful deaths from heart failure, diabetes, cancer, etc. There's ample "proof" of that.

I'm not the biggest party person, but none of the mundane pleasures I've "enjoyed" can come close to the pure joy of participating in an ecstatic kirtan. No hangover the next day. No sense of guilt. Pure joy.

Your mileage may vary (YMMV).

What's so lazy about going against the overwhelming trend of seeking mundane sense-enjoyment? Do you have any idea what mundane vices the Vaishnavas have happily renounced (along with the affection of some family members) in order to take part in the Sankirttan movement of Mahaprabhu?

Otherwise, the great devotees have shown that the so-called material world is actually Vrindavan for the pure devotee.

This is where many of us go astray.

We forget that Vaikunta, Goloka, and hell are all states of consciousness, not geographical locations.

Remembering that puts the terms "fall", "dreaming", "return", etc. into a different perspective, doesn't it?

[and, yes, I know I can't go to Goloka in my mind--just referencing James Taylor]

When I'm trying to explain a concept to somebody and they are just not getting it, I try to explain it in a different way. If they still can't get it, I try to explain it in an even simpler (reduced) fashion.

This seems to be what Srila Prabhupada was doing in the conversations. Everything is there in the books for those with the sincerity and purity of heart to read it without imposing their own speculative interpretations upon the scripture, but so many of us fail to grasp the meaning.

Guru, in his mercy, will try to explain things in a way we can grasp.

In this sense, I agree with what Guruvani is saying about Prabhupadas lectures and books.

Unlike Srila Prabhupada, if I was faced with so much stubborn attachment to ignorance, I would have been screaming exasperatedly in no time.

I think the fact is they are references and I was there during some of those discussions, why can't you just except what Srila Prabhupada has said in stead of making silly excuses that Srila Prabhupada made all that up to appease his devotee. The taped words and the written words are equally important.

Holy mackerel!! What joy!

I read the whole thing eagerly, but how about a one or two line summary for those with less patience, eh, krsna-ji?

Something like: in the spiritual realm every activity is joyful, even those which would be tedious to us on this plane of struggle.

Of course, if one has some taste, reading the words of Param-Gurudev are like showering in a rain of nectar.

 

So everywhere there is struggle: where there is life, there is struggle. Where there is

 

progress there is struggle; and where there is lila, play, there is struggle, though of a

 

 

different kind. One is sweet, the other painful. In the lower stage it is a little painful for us

 

 

 

to cut the tie of attraction to this world; but when some permanent relationship is

 

established with the upper world, when we have regained that, then to move forward is

happy

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

The hardest thing for me is adjusting myself to the environment rather than trying to adjust the environment to suit me.

I just started reading Srila Sridhar Maharaja's "Divine Aspiration", and this theme is echoed there.

From page 30:

We have no ability to interfere with the environment; to do so will only be a useless waste of energy. Rather, we must try to correct *ourselves*, so that we can adjust with the circumstances we find surrounding us. We have been advised that the best estimation we can make about the environment is to see it and understand it as a grant. A grant means something which is given. But from where is this grant coming? It is coming from my Lord and He is my Guardian. He is Supreme; He is Autocrat. So, what is coming from Him is His grace. We are living by His grace always and it is not a matter of 'right.' That we are living and existing at all is not our birthright! Whether we exist does not matter to the Infinite Whole. So, tat te 'nukampam susamiksamano: whatever comes is His grace; it is not earned by my right, my ability, or my qualification. Our well-guided estimation about the environment should be such.

When we get cold, we must stand closer to the fire.

When our inspiration is lacking, we can associate (virtually or physically) with those persons who are inspired.

Inattentive chanting is seen as being offensive. If we can not chant attentively, better to engage ourselves in some other way (like, as theist suggests, hearing the chanting of those who are chanting purely).

There's no reason why we need to feel like we are alone in this journey.

Wherever truth is sacrificed for the sake of expediency we have a case of short term gains and long term losses. Such propagandizing statements invariably lead to confusion. That is the Tantric (as opposed to the Vedic) approach. In the end, the real casualty is our faith.

Well, if one see's Mahaprabhu's Sankirttan movement as a battle campaign--a war--as I believe the two Prabhupadas (with whom we are most familiar) did, then a good general might accept calculated long-term (or short-term) losses with even longer-term successes in mind.

As I've said before in (online) print, I feel all the growing pains Gaudiya Vaishnavism has gone through in the West (and even in the East) have been worthwhile. The message of Mahaprabhu is being spread further and more widely than ever before in recorded history.

Many of us initially have no faith which may be compromised. Propaganda may be used to attract those with good inclinations. Like it has been said, "They'll come for the prasadam [or propaganda], but they'll stay for the philosophy."

As we say here in Santa Cruz: It's all good.

To be fair, the acharyas *do* at times say strong things like that they declare "totalitarian war against maya", but, these statements need to be understood in the context of preaching, don't they? Things are said for the sake of propaganda (and even "motivating the troops") that may not strictly be in accord with siddhanta.

Also, the maya (small "m") which we are declaring war against really is what theist describes--the thick layer of crust covering our own pure consciousness.

Maya Devi Herself remains worshippable.

Iskcon devotees in general display a very negative and disrespectful attitude towards both Durgadevi and Her husband, Lord Shiva. It clearly stems from our techings, such as the completely mistaken notion that Shiva and Durga belong to the category of "demigods", akin to Indra, Ganesh, Brahma, or other devas in the jiva category.

when i went to temple with a friend, the devotee their told me, mayadevi also means mother. Hindi maya means affection. (durga).

Wow!! Wow!

After all, she *is* cradling us in her lap like helpless little babes.

Yeah but for me such distinctions are only intellectual. I am still enamoured by woman's breasts and the willingness to waste time. I should fear the effects of maya more.

You and me both, brother!! I fear I'm much too glib for my own good!

Sorry, Guest, but I'm not following you here. This is more like an SMS text message and not so much like English. Can you clarify?

Who told you that you are the Most Dear to Krsna?

This EGO of i am close to Krsna and all that is bad,in front of GOD everyone is the same,your suffering is the result of your karma,everyone has suffering and pleasures and nothing to do with Lords Love or not.

Thanks, that's great. Hasn't it also been said that between the Big Bangs (as described in Srimad Bhagavatam as the inhalations and exhalations of Maha-Vishnu) there are a number of smaller dissolutions?

Couldn't Matsya, Kurma, etc. have come after one of these great minor dissolutions wiped all hominids off the face of the earth?

Also, these things are cyclical are they not?

Why would Jayadev Goswami pick those particular incarnations in that particular order for his Dasavatara Stotaram? Was he not divinely inspired? Or is it a mere coincidence?

Was Parashuram a member of "Homo Sapiens"?

The avatars are there for helping us humans (homo-sapiens).

 

This is the full list from Garuda Purana on wikipedia:

 

The first incarnation was a young boy (kumara). In this form, Vishnu adopted celibacy (brahmacharya) and performed difficult tapasya (meditation).

 

The second incarnation was as a boar (varaha). In this form, Vishnu rescued the earth from the underworld.

 

The third incarnation was as a great sage (devarishi). In this form, Vishnu spread the knowledge of several texts (tantras).

 

The fourth incarnation was as two sages named Nara and Narayana.

 

The fifth incarnation was as the great sage Kapila. Kapila taught his disciple Asuri the wonderful philosophy known as samkhya yoga.

 

The sixth incarantion was as the sage Dattatreya, the son of Atri and Anasuya.

 

The seventh incarnation took place in the manvantra known as svayambhuva. Vishnu was born as the son of Ruchi and Akuti and performed many yajnas (sacrifices).

 

In the eighth incarnation, Vishnu was born as the son of Nabhi and Meru. His name was Urukrama. He taught everyone the righteous way of life.

 

In the ninth incarnation, Vishnu became the king Prithu and restored foodgrains and herbs to the earth.

 

The tenth of Vishnu’s incarnations was as a fish (matsya). He saved Vaivasvata Manu from the flood that enveloped the world.

 

In the eleventh incarnation, Vishnu adopted the form of a turtle (kurma). This was to help out the gods (devas) and demons (asuras) in the churning of the ocean (samudra manthana).

 

The twelfth incarnation was as Dhanvantari, physician of the gods and the originator of medicine.

 

The thirteenth was mohini avatara. In this form, Vishnu adopted the body of a beautiful woman so as to charm and rob the asuras of the amrita (a life-giving drink).

 

In the fourteenth incarnation, Vishnu became Narasimha, a being who was half-man and half-lion. He killed the evil asura Hiranyakashipu as Narasimha.

 

The fifteenth incarnation witnessed Vishnu’s adoption of the form of dwarf (vamana). This was to hoodwink the asura Vali and restore the gods to heaven.

 

In the sixteenth incarnation, Vishnu became Parashurama, killed all the kshatriyas in the world twenty-one times.

 

The seventeenth incarnation was as Vedavyasa, the son of Parashara and Satyavati. Vedavyasa divided the Vedas.

 

Vishnu’s eighteen incarnation was as the sage Narada.

 

The nineteenth incarnation was Rama and the twentieth was Krishna.

 

In the twenty-first incarnation, Vishnu became a Buddha (different from Gautama Buddha).

 

The twenty-second incarnation is yet to come. And Vishnu will come. Vishnu will be born as Kalki, so as to destroy evil in the world and restore righteousness".

 

There have been several other incarnations of Vishnu. But the ones mentioned above are the major ones.

Really??? Humans? Or Devas and Asuras in human-like form.

This is just from memory, but in the pastime of Kurma, I recall only mention of Devas and Asuras. Were there common Homo Sapiens as well? Shastric evidence?

In any case, I wasn't proposing that this is scientific (or even siddhantic) evidence for evolution, merely that it is a very interesting analog.

Maybe it's just my mind, but I cannot help but find significance in this apparent progression.

Really, this is a joke. There are humans on Earth already when these pasttimes are taking place according to scripture.

Hmmmm...fearing Maya could certainly be said to be *USEFUL*, but is it the highest realization?

Now, I'm not too clear on the distinctions between Yoga-Maya and Maha-Maya (somebody help me here!!), but isn't it only by the mercy of Maya Devi that we can even see the Most Beautiful Shyamasundar form of the Lord? That is to say, if we were under no delusion at all, wouldn't we, as did Arjuna, see the Lord's Universal Form in all it's fearsome splendor and glory? Wouldn't we, as Arjuna did, cower before this awful (in the classical sense of the word) form and pray for the Lord's mercy (by way of Maya Devi?) to see his more beautiful form?

I could be way off base here...let me know, good Vaishnavas!!

A fotenote to being patient. We have seen a history of supposed sanyasins in Iskcon actually become obcessed with this mental state and instead of growing past it turned into woman haters.

 

This is really destructive for the whole community because then others feel a justification or even a need to follow that example.

 

I would think Gaudiyas should evolve to have the highest respect for our Mother seeing as the Supreme Mother is Radharani.

 

But for most of us we still need to learn to fear maya more. Not hate maya but fear the entanglement.

I'm going to have to show my daughter that emoticon/gremlin!! She can't read yet (thankfully), but she'll get a big kick out of that image!!!

.

It all depends on what your definition of "is" is.

--Bill Clinton

I give up.

...and, in the Dasavatara Stotaram, one can (if so inclined) see a Divine Evolution of the Species.

The Lord comes as fish, tortoise, boar, etc. in ever-increasingly complex forms.

the earth arose from the ocean through the power of varaha

life arose from the ocean, from the womb of the oceanic brahman.