amanpeter

Still no comments, prabhus?

In all honesty a person's Guru is not everybody's business. I think that choosing a Guru as well as disclosing who he/she may be is personal. It is clear that this information has been requested from Mark in order to utilize it as propaganda. I think we can all agree that more propaganda is not what we need in the Vaisnava community at this time. If we do not agree with the position of third-gendered Vaisnavas then we should express our opinions and establish ourselves seperately so as to not be bothered by them. This means that we may have to "offer our obeisances from afar" as one devotee once said to me about a friend of mine. However we must recognize and honor their aspiring relationship with our sweet cowherd boy Sri Krsna no matter what we think about their mundane relationships.

 

Please remember that the energy we are utilizing to critisize others, invent conspiracies, and research slokas that degrade the position of another can easily be utilized to advance our own understanding and promote our growth. It seems malicious to spend so much energy in oppressing and offending others when there is so much each of us can work on and learn for ourselves. Some people on this network must believe themselves faultless to be pressuming so much of others. I believe we should harnass our energy and direct it towards the Supreme Lord rather than wasting it on fruitless and hurtful discussions.

 

Agreed 100% and I hope my more positive posts have outweighed the negative ones. As aspiring devotees, self-reflection is an integral part of the process for self-realization. Sometimes harsh words or even actions may be necessary, though I would prefer not to be the one to deliver either. Ultimately, Radha and Krsna are the Supreme Controllers and sometimes their love is perceived as painful. This is Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement and we have all been caught up in it through His Divine Grace. So much has yet to be sorted out, but we have another 9,500 years and many more lifetimes ahead of us, do we not? If it is necessary for someone to walk in another's shoes, that can surely be arranged.

 

The same truths that hurt can also set us free, prabhus. There was a song by a group called The Carrs that said, "It doesn't matter where you've been, as long as it was deep!" While we experience our unique bodies in relation to others, I believe it best to go deep into our heart-of-hearts because that is where the understanding of achintya-bhedabheda-tattva lies and that is the ABSOLUTE truth we are all seeking.

 

Spontaneous emotional expression is important and should not be stifled without due cause, however we are obliged to consider who we are and why we meet here in this Audarya Fellowship so as to remind ourselves that self-discipline is also an integral part of the process for self-realization. Even if we are unable for whatever reason to humble ourselves or admit regrets to each other, both must be done before God and/or Sri Guru. When restraint needs to be applied externally, it reflects badly on this forum, it's participants, devotees in general, Bhakti-devi, guru parampara, etc. etc.

 

Words can be posted in haste, then later retracted. Escalations can be avoided. Although accusations and counter-accusations might be flying about during a heated discussion, name calling is not at all helpful and in fact makes those involved appear too ignorant to express themselves any other way. Again, if we look at ourselves we can easily see what sets us off and use caution at those times or with those particular individuals.

 

I am personally disturbed when there appears to be mean-spirited conflict between the devotees. Differences in opinion and between personalities can at least be dealt with in a mature manner, if not with empathy and compassion. Certain individuals seem to reinforce each other when battles ensue, to the point of alienating others or actually hounding them off these forums altogether. This isn't a game like King of the Castle or Steal the Flag, prabhus. MIGHT does not indicate RIGHT, no matter how large your font. Cajoling can be more effective than cajoles...Peter/valaya

 

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amanpeter@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-04-2001).]

Originally posted by jijaji:

BB..Huh..

 

Oh Well in that case..no offense taken as I know him to be a groovey individual.

 

 

 

 

Yeh, he's just a groovey kinda guy...

The Devotional Mood of a Pure Devotee:

 

"I am the eternal servant of Shri Hari Gurudeva and Vaishnavas, and Their Holy Names are my most dear companion and master. By nature I am not a brahman (priest), kshatriya (administrator and soldier), vaishya (merchant, farmer or professional) or a shudra (servant of all the earlier class of men) or even a bhramcharin (celibate student), grihastha (householder), vanprastha (one who has completed his family duties) or a sanyasin (renunciant). I am the eternal servant of the servant of the servant of Shri Shri Radha Gopinath and Shri Krishna Chaitanya Prabhu Nityananda Shri Advaita Gadadhara Shrivasadi Gaura Bhakta Vrinda and my only desire is Their Eternal Loving Devotional Service."

 

Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita

 

Originally posted by nine9:

Surely you are jesting? (I mean about a mother lusting after her child?)

Lust is what binds us to this material body/world/conciousness. It is not simply gross or subtle sex desire, although that may be seen as the root. Spiritual conciousness is not a relative concept such as the three modes of nature. One is either in or out and it begins when identification with the body, and all that entails, CEASES.

 

Unfortunately, many seek out gurus for what they can GET from them, not what they can GIVE. Thus they become misled ever further and increasingly entangled in confusion. The solution lies in realizing the frighteningly desperate situation we are in here and crying out sincerely from our hearts, in complete helplessness, for that Divine Grace which alone can free us from ALL our misconceptions. Then we may be able to actually appreciate His Divine Grace when he appears before us personally.

 

Trouble is, these days there's a whole buffet of `gurus` to choose from, as if it were ever our choice to begin with. Gee, I'm black so I better choose the black guru. No, I'm French so probably the French guru will understand me better. Hey, that one seems kind...but that other one writes such good books...etc. etc.

 

Maybe better just to chant and pray, eh? Meanwhile, it can't hurt to consider oneself the very lowest and try to respect/serve EVERYONE, whether or not we can apparently benefit from them. At least theoretically, we can all realize that each of us is part and parcel of the Supreme, can we not? Peter/valaya

 

 

 

 

By the way are you guys twins?

Oh no! Stereo!

 

 

Bhakta Shakta and Kailasa! Now this could get interesting...

Originally posted by jijaji:

excuse me "monkey siddhanta"..?

 

why is everything turned into an attack..?

 

 

 

 

Coming from BB, I guess it could be considered a love tap...(insert funny face here)!?!

As I understand it, Prabhupada distinguished Lord Jesus Christ from Christianity and so-called Christians. His warnings were against religiosity, religion pursued with material motives, and those who practise it. True religion represents an obvious threat to them, as it does to any other materialist, however they believe that God is on their side and are thus more of a potential threat. Witness Moslem fanatics, etc. etc.

No comment, but I DON'T iron shirts and I'm not THAT old...Zzzzzzz!

Have had some experience with `Wild Women From Mars Out of Control` and never quite recovered. Perhaps there's a twelve-step program somewhere...

When boiling down the mixture, you can take samples every so often, letting them cool. Then different textures and cooking times can be compared all from the same batch. There goes your excuse for making endless quantities just to experiment! Of course, there's still the flavouring to consider...

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Okay amanpeter. I know I sound like an envious snake 99% of the time, but the fact is I cannot stand cheaters in the guise of gurus. And that includes the ISKCON ones and the looneytunes like Puripad.

 

It is caveat emptor in spiritual life. But then, if one wants to be cheated, Krsna will send you a cheater. If one wants the real thing, then Krsna will send you the real thing. All based on desire. I couldn't care less whom one desires, it is just after three decades of seeing these bhogi-yogis it gets old after a while. DDSOS!

Prabhu, I don't know what DDSOS means. You don't seem at all like an envious snake, not to me anyway. Like so many others, what has happened brought grief, frustration, and anger to your sincere heart, which desired only to serve Srila Prabhupada with everything you had. You sacrificed so much of your life, in fact your very self, as did others who truly believed that they could magically transform the whole world immediately by His Divine Grace.

 

Now, when we look back reflectively, our idealism can't help but be clouded with a certain amount of cynicism. I can only say that this is just the beginning of Lord Caitanya's Golden Age and we'll all be together for a long time yet, doing whatever it takes. It's just not going to occur overnight as we thought it would or how we might have envisioned it happening.

 

In our own way, each of us is `keeping the faith` deep in our heart-of-hearts, behind all that heavy armour we may show to the world. I beleve in all of you, because my faith is not exclusive, but in His Divine Grace working mysteriously through every devotee, though they themselves are mostly unaware of their own devotion. Victory is already assured. JAI JAI SRI RADHE!!! valaya

 

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

LOL! Puripad is promoting Puripad.

 

At least he is no longer Ronald McDonald.

 

For a few laughs, check out http://www.puripada.com/

 

But be forwarned and bring your barf bag!

 

Thanks for the tip! Lockport, NY is just over the border so perhaps I can visit and report back to you all here.

 

BB, you can't expect others, especially newcomers, to know all that has happened or the personalities involved in who did what to whom, etc. You have so much to share and I really wish you would, for all of our sakes, including yours. Don't worry about how it's said, just say it somehow or other.

 

There may be certain limitations on these forums, but my Email is always open to you as is the phone. Confidentiality is assured, prabhu, I just want to know the whole story of Prabhupada's ISKCON, and you were there. What if you fall off a mountain or something? Then it's too late! Peter/valaya

 

 

 

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amanpeter@hotmail.com

You could say the Lord really nailed that demon good, eh? Nailed him REAL good!!!

Those with little knowledge of what intimacy actually is, or even the desire to experience it personally, intentionally isolating themselves and avoiding emotional involvement with others, should not be expected to be taken seriously when they comment on relationships that they cannot help seeing in other than a sexual context. They are more to be pitied than condemned.

 

Srila Prabhupada was speaking of sex, not loving committed CELIBATE relationships between individuals, regardless of their sexual preferences. Witness the `vagina licking dialogue` quoted on VNN forums. "Let those who are without sin cast the first stone!"

 

`Disciples who use Sri Guru as a stick to beat others into submission, instead of on themselves, are only HURTING their guru, and thus ultimately all of us. What goes around comes around, prabhus...Peter/valaya

 

 

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amanpeter@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-02-2001).]

Prabhupad is the Guru of all who want to follow Mahaprabhu.

 

And wanting to follow Mahaprabhu makes anyones life auspicious even if that devotee does not follow everything perfectly.

 

So I say to those inquisitors who want to know who is the Guru of the Gays.

 

I say Prabhupad is their Guru and the Guru of anyone who takes even one step toward Nitai and Gauranga. Hare Krishna, Brahma

Yes, Srila Prabhupada is Sri Guru for all of us, and as such we are all godbrothers/sisters. Those who wish to consider themselves as disciples, however, are expected to follow the discipline he prescribed while those living under the shelter of ISKCON, within the their temples and communities are obliged to follow the four basic regulative principles, whether they're initiated or not.

 

If we could only understand and exchange real spiritual intimacy, so many unwanted things would simply fall away of their own accord. Isn't that the `higher taste` Prabhupada spoke of so often? What I find missing is the emotional component in our relationships.

 

There was a closeness that initially attracted me when I first entered the Vancouver temple, way back in 1971. We used to all line up for the one little bathroom before mangal arotike, in our bathrobes and mumbling sleepily on japa beads. It felt so much like the family I'd never had and always longed for. Now so many gurus, so many families. Even in the temples the brahmacari's have their separate rooms.

 

We used to share so much, including daily `revelations`, tears and all. If we cannot connect heart-to-heart with the many, we will be driven to connect with the few. Often that seems to mean finding those who maintain similar material attachments. Unfortunately, there is the tendency to reinforce each other's false identities in such relationships.

 

Of course, different `partnerships` are formed for diverse purposes, some more intimate and/or lasting than others, but as devotees our hearts must belong only to God, whom we see as Radha-Krsna, at least those of us who accept Lord Caitanya and aspire for His Divine Grace. All our connections with each other are to be seen in light of that supreme relationship. As Lord Jesus said, "If you love another more than me, you have no love for me."

 

What is really lacking, I believe, is knowledge and the will to give that most vital part of ourselves to God. I somehow learned, on my own, how to dovetail my own sexual desire. Some of it was tantric, involving women, and the rest was diety worship, involving Srimati Radharani. I really wish more could be explained, prabhus, but it's certainly not possible in a group setting, especially not a public one.

 

I will say this, though. Everything depends on INTENSITY of desire. Krsna has said that all offerings are directed to Him, He is the sacrifice, etc. or something along those lines. There is only ONE romantic relationship and that is between Radha and Krsna. We are mere insignificant participants in that eternal romance. As part and parcel of the internal potency, our connection is to Srimati Radharani, by His Divine Grace, which/whom She is considered to be the source and very personification of by Gaudiya vaisnavas.

 

I'm sorry to say that the sadly lacking response here and on Dharma-mela forum this recent Radhastami must be taken, by me at least, as a great difficiency in understanding and/or appreciating She who is the key to all being discussed here, and so much more.

 

So long as we worship in a religious as opposed to personal sense, formally rather than with ALL OUR HEARTS AND SOULS, we will continue to receive His Divine Grace drop by drop instead of the drowning flood which is so obviously needed.

 

Feeling separation to the point of madness while driven to complete desperation is one sure way for those who have no other shelter, family, or friends to offer relief. Eventually, in one lifetime or another, we all must reach that forceful one-pointedness that transcends any other consideration. Personally, I know no other way. JAI RADHE!

 

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amanpeter@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-01-2001).]

As I understand it, Lord Caitanya made available the understanding of Absolute Truth as simultaneously one and different. Although this concept cannot be explained by pholosophical explanations, it remains accessible to all through HIS DIVINE GRACE. Prabhupada gave the analogy of two clear panes of glass making it impossible to distinguish between them without the difference being revealed. So, too, the devotee depends on Sri Sri Radha-Krsna to reveal the absolute truth by Divine Grace, giving up ALL other efforts and simply surrendering in full devotional service.

 

I believe that those of us involved in this seemingly endless, mostly fruitless, discussion have indeed glimpsed the Truth both personally and impersonally, to some extent at least, by that same Divine Grace. However, our minds, false egos, etc. tend to immediately rush in and claim credit for `our` vision! Thinking `we` have somehow achieved a higher understanding through perceptive intelligence or perhaps other means, we try to explain to others with limited success and in doing so, often lose whatever it was we thought we understood in the first place. Fact is, that absolute truth was never ours to begin with! Krsna belongs to Radha and Radha belongs to Krsna!

 

Even if our Divine Vision was obtained through devotional service, still we are attempting to take credit for those efforts, when in fact we are doing NOTHING! Devotional service is doing us and, at best, we are allowing it to happen. Surrender must be continuous and uninterrupted for it to be perfect. The more we are given the more we must give up! Isn't that why we are always giving ALL GLORIES TO HIS DIVINE GRACE? JAI JAI SRI RADHE!!! valaya

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-01-2001).]

Originally posted by jndas:

I have just deleted and edited several messages to keep this conversation on track and civil. I am sorry if anyone disagrees.

Agreed and accepted, prabhu. Please note that a discussion of this same subject matter is presently happening on the Dharma-mela forum.

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 08-28-2001).]

If GOD is being approached in whatever manner I should humbly bow and accept whatever

mercy comith my way.

 

 

jijaji

Exactly, prabhu! That is why I personally must see God only as my guru and not my guru only as God. Truth is there, in everything and everyone, for those with the eyes to see. I believe that vision is available solely by Divine Grace and She always works in mysterious and wondrous ways, far beyond our limited understanding or ability to control. Let's take whatever we find from wherever and share it here together for whoever can appreciate and hopefully benefit! JAI RADHE!!! valaya

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 08-28-2001).]

 

 

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

SRIMATI RADHARANI BLAMES KRSNA

A Lecture on Brahmara-gita, The Song of the Bee

Mathura, India: August 10, 2001

 

It is stated in Srimad Bhagavatam, 10.47.15:

divi bhuvi ca rasayam kah striyas tad-durapah

kapata-rucira-hasa-bhru-vijrmbhasya yah syuh carana-raja upaste

yasya

bhatir vayam ka api ca krpana-pakse hy uttamah-sloka-sabdah

 

["In heaven, on earth, or in the subterranean sphere, what women are

unavailable to Him? He simply arches His eyebrows and smiles with

deceptive charm, and they all become His. The supreme goddess

herself

worships the dust of His feet, so what is our position in

comparison?

But at least those who are wretched can chant His name,

Uttamah-sloka."

(BBT)]

 

This verse contains speech known as ujjalpa, as described in

Ujjvala-nilamani (14.188): ["The declaration of Hari’s duplicitous

nature in a mood of spite born of pride, together with jealously

spoken

insults directed against Him, has been termed ujjalpa by the wise."]

 

Ujjalpa is also mentioned in Caitanya Caritamrta: ["Imaginative mad

talks, known as citra-jalpa, can be divided into ten categories:

prajalpa, parijalpa, vijalpa, ujjalpa, sanjalpa, avajalpa,

abhijalpa,

ajalpa, pratijalpa and sujalpa. There are no English equivalents for

these different features of jalpa, imaginative talk." (Madhya

23.61)]

 

Srimati Radhika is the crest-jewel of Krsna's beloveds, and She is

now

speaking citra-jalpa. Within citra-jalpa, She is speaking kataksa,

sarcasm, as She criticizes the ladies of Mathura. Sent by Krsna to

Vrndavana from Mathura, Uddhava witnesses Her madness in separation,

and, kneeling at a distance, he thinks, "How can Srimati Radhika

blame

Krsna so severely? We know that Krsna is always in sorrow and pain,

chanting the names 'Radha! Radha! Radha! He has sent me only to

pacify

His grief. Besides that, the Mathura ladies are very chaste."

 

Srimati Radhika continued, as if addressing Uddhava's doubt, "Why am

I

criticizing? Yes, I agree that the Mathura ladies are chaste. At the

same time, we know that Krsna can easily get any girl in the

heavens,

earth, and subterranean heavenly planets. All are completely

attracted

by His beauty, smile, and dancing eyebrows. Any chaste lady will

become

an innocent victim of His duplicity (kapatata), fall into His trap,

and

be easily available to Him. Even the birds and other animals change

their natures.

 

["Seeing Your face encircled by curling locks of hair, Your cheeks

beautified by earrings, Your lips full of nectar, and Your smiling

glance, and also seeing Your two imposing arms which take away our

fear,

and Your chest, which is the only source of pleasure for the goddess

of

fortune, we must become Your maidservants." (Srimad Bhagavatam:

10.29.39)]

 

"Seeing Your curly locks and glance, and also Your two imposing

arms, we

lose all fear and become your maidservants. We take maintenance from

others, but we give all our love to You, though You never gave us a

farthing.

 

“It is not surprising that chaste ladies reverse their nature

because of

Krsna. All living beings do so. The trees and their wives, the

creepers

and their children., the leaves and flowers, all welcome Him as all

family members welcome a sadhu. Even the birds and peacocks become

stunned and forget to speak. They close their eyes like munis, sit

in

the trees, and reverse their nature.

 

"We did not want to see Him, but He forcibly showed Himself to us,

and

now we have lost everything. We lost all our fear of our guru-jana

(superiors), and we also lost our shyness. We see that even Laksmi,

who

lives in the heart of Narayana, became attracted when she saw

Krsna's

beautiful face. She left Narayana and came to Vraja, and still now

she

is performing severe austerities at Baelvana to enter the rasa

dance.

This is all due to the beauty of Krsna.

 

"Prema is like a golden pot filled with poison, with a thin layer of

very good milk on the top. Krsna has unparalleled beauty, aisvarya

and

madhurya. He is, in fact, the treasury of all three, and His beauty

can

drown the universe and attract all, including Himself." When He saw

His

own beauty in a jewelled reflection, He wanted to embrace Himself as

Radharani does.

 

"Krsna is famous as Uttama-sloka, one who gives mercy to the

destitute.

But do you see that Krsna has this quality? No. He is very cruel,

deceitful, and dishonest. No one in the world is like Him."

 

At this time, hearing Radhika speak, Uddhava thought, "What is She

saying? Krsna creates and destroys the worlds, and She is so

severely

criticizing Him?" Uddhava had only come for this reason; to hear

Srimati

Radhika and the other gopis speak in the madness of loving

separation.

Krsna doesn't care for stavas and stutis, the eloquent prayers of

the

sages and demigods sung in awe and reverence for His greatness. He

is

not even fully controlled by Mother Yasoda and the sakhas, for even

they

can't criticize Krsna like this. However, Krsna is so pleased to

come in

the form of a bee, just to hear this 'abuse.'

 

Srimati Radhika continued, "Why do we abuse Him? Because it was for

Him

that we lost everything. We lost the advantages attained by our two

kulas (dynasties), in this world and in paraloka, heaven, and

instead we

are going to hell. Because we loved Krsna as a paramour, we lost all

spiritual and material things. It is not therefore not possible for

Him

to be Uttama-sloka."

 

Lord Brahma cannot imagine all this.

So this is Ujjalpa and it consists of calumny (slander or false

accusations) and asuya, jealous pride.

 

[This class was translated by Srimati Uma devi dasi]

 

------------------

amanpeter@hotmail.com

Although it may seem that acceptance and recognition on an equal level is the goal, if one looks more closely at this site and has perhaps had the opportunity of knowing such individuals personally, it becomes obvious that members of the so-called third sex consider themselves superior to either of the other two.

 

I am particularly uncomfortable with references to Lord Caitanya which remind me of the gay Jesus debate. Identification with the body results in illusory misconceptions without end and Mayadevi provides full facility to justify just about anything. We must remember that as God conciousness increases, so too the influence of Maya will simultaneously gain in prevalance, since they are opposite sides of the same coin.

Just read an article on Chakra by Danavir Goswami and found these two quotes interesting. The

first equates ANY spiritual life with attending a full ISKCON morning program and the second

emphasizes the need for service to be individual, spontaneous and VOLUNTARY to avoid killing the enthusiastic spirit. Thought some discussion might be inspired by this post. Comments, prabhus?

 

10. You must rise early (before 4:00 AM), attend the mangala arati, attend the classes, chant at

least 16 good rounds daily, and observe the four basic principles. These things you must do

without fail otherwise, there is no question of spiritual life. (Letter to: Caranaravinda --

Mayapur 2 April, 1975)

 

27. So the future of this Krishna Consciousness movement is very bright, so long the managers

remain vigilant that 16 rounds are being chanted by everyone without fail, that they are all

rising before four morning, attending mangal arati--our leaders shall be careful not to kill the

spirit of enthusiastic service, which is individual and spontaneous and voluntary.(Letter to:

Karandhara -- Bombay 22 December, 1972)

 

]

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-04-2001).]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Ok, now you guys are just goofin on me I've found a few sites on the internet that have given me a little insight, though I want something a little more substantial than what I've found. I'll keep looking.

 

Gauracandra

Goofin', eh? You know those Amish, always horsing around!

Originally posted by talasiga:

Dear Melvin

Our relationship with the Divine

is a secret PRIVATE matter

not for publication

Our attempts to

communicate it to closest others

often ends in the greatest disappointment.

 

 

 

I've noticed!

Still the heart

CRIES...

And so we

TRIES!

 

------------------

amanpeter@hotmail.com

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 08-27-2001).]