Kripamoya

somehow that sounds a little different than Jagat's hanging around Lalita Prasad for a few days, getting his manjari-svarupa and then coming back to Canada to get married and preach siddha-pranali from his job as a half-baked college teacher.

I guess you are trying to say that Sridhar Maharaja got siddha-pranali from Saraswati Goswami? Otherwise, I don't see how I are appear to assuming anything. Sridhar Maharaja said emphatically that "we are not believers in that". I think he made it quite clear about his position on the siddha-pranali concept.

It depends on who said that. Was he a pure Vaishnava or was he speaking about karma-kanda ? You need a more definitive explanation of who said it to whom and why? The reference is too vague at this point to really understand it.

But, these things pretty much go unspoken. Srila Prabhupada said that if a man is satisfied with his wife then there will be no need of prostitutes in society. When speaking of religious concepts, the great gurus always speak of the highest standard. Whether they believed that the masses were actually following those standards in the privacy of their own homes is something else. Romance has to run it's course for better or worse. sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't

If I am not mistaken, the topic of this thread is "romance". If somebody doesn't believe in it and has a problem with it, then why don't they start a topic called "atmarama" and espouse their "I am an island" conceptions there instead of spoiling the topic about romance?

Sridhar Maharaja didn't read Ujjvala-nilamani. But, on an occasion of making pilgrimage to Ekachakra, Lord Nityananda appeared to him and instructed him to begin giving initiations. Sridhar Maharaja was a self-realized maha-bhagavat. He didn't believe that reading the most confidential writings of the Goswamis was a qualifier for attaining prema. He understood that it was sacrifice and service. Part of his sacrifice was to resist certain books of the goswamis. It paid off. Sridhar Maharaja didn't have to play around with some mentally conceived siddha-deha like a dimestore superhero doll.

The problem with the siddha-pranali concept is that it causes one to think that he has now become an associate of the divine couple. Srila Rupa Goswamis warns against that. He teaches that we should think of an associate of the Lord and desire to serve in that way. However, we are supposed to think of one of the parshada associates of the Lord and always think about how that associate is serving the Lord. That's the difference between the teachings of the Saraswata acharyas and the siddha-pranali types. The MOOD of service is the siddha-deha. Cultivating the mood of the gopis is the process of siddha-deha. thinking than one has now become a gopi is a great blunder.

Jagat says: Unlike the modern voyeurs of today, Sridhar Maharaja was not a PEEPING TOM to intrude into the most elevated descriptions of Ujjvala-nilamani. Without proper adhikar, to intrude into those topics amounts to no more than voyeurism. There is not much difference between intruding into the conjugal affairs of the divine couple by reading Ujjvala-nilamani and these guys in high rise apartments with binoculars looking at people in a bedroom in the building across the street.

Jagat said: Nobody can argue that. But, lobha must have a qualifier. The qualifier is intense and exclusive service to the spiritual master. Studying the Vaishnava canon endlessly without a genuine commitment to a life of sacrifice and service to the spiritual master will not get anyone to the perfect stage. Serving the spiritual master with sacrifice and hardship is the proof that the lobha is genuine, not just a lot of wishful thinking and book reading. The Saraswata creedo is sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice. There is so much more to sacrifice and service to the spiritual master than just learning philosophy and trying to be better than everybody else. People know sacrifice and service when they see it. Serve the spiritual master till you collapse. Reading books is not the test of lobha. Service to the spiritual master. That is genuine lobha. Service will give you prema. Strong, consistant, unbreaking, sacrificing service. Don't fool yourself. If you want prema, then you must pay a very high price. You can't get your hand out of the cookie jar if you have a handful of cookies. Let go of the cookies and you will be free. Hardworking, sacrificing devotees who are committed to serving the spiritual master can never be fooled with this bookworm bhakti process.

Jagat, Sridhar Maharaja didn't read Ujjvala-nilamani. He realized ujjvala-rasa. He found a formula that worked by fanatically following something that was given to him by Srila Saraswati Goswami. You read Ujjvala-nilamani, yet have spend the last 20 years trying to satisfy your wife. Who found a system that REALLY WORKED? clue: Sridhar Maharaja

After having said that and explained your feelings, now all you need to do is really get down and honest with yourself to find out if you have really attained prema, or have just acquired some language skills in a dry life of material pursuit? Because none of your logic, reasoning or thinking amounts to didly if you haven't really tasted the nectar as did Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Thats the difference between you and Sridhar Maharaja. He actually attained svarup-siddhi without having to read Ujjvala-nilamani, whilst so many bookworms who have intruded there are still having problems with controlling their genitals and are light years away from svarupa-siddhi. Who's system really works? Be honest Jagat. Yours hasn't.

It's no biggie. You can put a little murti of Ganesh on the altar and worship him in the same way we do puja to anantakoti-vaishnava. As we turn to the devotees and do puja in aratrika, then we can do the same for Ganesh. Nothing seperate, nothing special. Just like we worship the assembled devotees. I was pujari in several temples in my days.

Or is it that you are just frustrated that you can't defeat me with your puny academic knowledge bolstered by some bogus official initiation from some siddha-pranali guru whom you never really surrended to or performed any meaningful service to? These guys go to India and find some siddha-pranali guru who will give them some eka-dasa bhava for a few rupees donation to the cause and then they come back the western countries and pretend to be some "disciple" even though they have never done more than a day's worth of service to their "guru". The problem is that they are trying to pass off this crazy concept upon devotees who gave years and years of hard work and service to their spiritual master. We don't believe in this foolish system of getting "siddha-pranali" after a couple of days with the "guru", while sincere devotees devote their lives unto hard work and service to their spiritual master. The problem is; Srila Prabhupada didn't produce a movement of idiots who buy into this siddha pranali hoax. so, Jagat spend a few days with Lalita Prasad and got his gopi name. Then he left that to come back to Canada, get married and become a college professor, though he had no service and no association with his "guru". Please excuse the Krishna consciousness movement if they don't quite buy into that version of Krishna-prema.

yup, you got me this time!

Really? Most of Radharani's intimate friends are disgusted with Krishna - not amazed. They don't want anything to do with the boy that has broken the heart of Sri Radha. They are amazed that Radharani can continue to love the boy that went off and left them for the big city. they are amazed with Radha. they are disgusted with Krishna.

But we confess to the Lord, not to the whole world who would ridicule and despise us. Canakya Pandit said that we should not admit our faults in public. We confess to God and admit that we know we have done wrong. We don't get on the internet and tell everybody about all our dirty little secrets. That doesn't accomplish anything. There are plenty of others around to tell all our sins. We don't need to be a party to our own disgrace.

Jagat says: Not really. Amazement is another term for aisvarya. The gopis are steeped in madhurya-rasa. The aisvarya-rasa is of the Vaikuntha realm. There is no aisvarya in the mood of the gopis in Vraja. It is all sweetness and intimacy. The awe and reverence of aisvarya is for the devotees of Narayana in Vaikuntha. That's why they call it "madhurya-rasa".

Srila Rupa Goswami has given us the concept of worshipping Ganesh as a great devotee of Lord Nrsimhadeva - not as a son of Lord Siva. If we understand Ganesh as a great devotee of Lord Nrsimhadeva and offer respectful worship in that way, then that is encouraged by Srila Rupa Goswami.

If remember correctly, you surrendered in that debate and offered a confession that you had been defeated. Would you please show us that statement of confession?

How nice. We also should remember that Ganesh did all the hard work of penciling the Vedas, Itihasa and Purana as Vyasadeva did dictation. Ganesh is a wonderful person with a very sincere heart. If we understand him from the Vaishnava perspective, we cannot but worship him for his great contribution to the Vaishnava canon.

Dear Madhavaji, I was a Hare Krishna gopi-wanna-be before you were even born. So, for you to say that I make it up as I go along is quite funny. I have held these conceptions for longer than you have been in your recent incarnation, so I would have to say that you are quite confused. Madhavananda das - born 11 June 1980 (1994 - Came in touch with ISKCON, started chanting.) Kripamoya - joined ISKCON March 1975.

This is the teaching of Srila Rupa Goswami as relayed by Srila Prabhupada. If you have some problem with this, then that is YOUR problem.

Do I smell a smokescreen? Do I detect some fear of being exposed? Madhava, if you don't see the guru as the functional representation of Lalita or Visakha, then maybe you should go back to Gaudiya kindergarten and learn the basics of siddhanta.

Its' difficult to really interpret spiritual dreams. I had a dream recently that I was put in charge of the sevapuja of three sets of temple deities. I subsequently turned the puja over to a Godbrother of mine who is a devout pujari. It could be past life experiences, mystic revelations or visions of the future. Ganesh is considered the remover of obstacles to the path of devotional service. As such, Rupa Goswami recommends that devotees worship Ganesh in that mood. The lingams represent the power of progeny in the material universe.