Beggar

That's like judging Christ by his so-called followers or judging Prabhupada by what happened in New Vrndavana. This is the material world, so it doesn't matter how great the guru or teacher. The teachings always become obscured again by darkness and Krsna again must re-establish them. yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati...

We are dealing with the land of faith. Ultimately persuasion will have no real influence there for persuasion is based on logic and reason. Bhakti is beyond logic and reason and must be revealed by the infinite to the finite. Persuasion can only give some hint to the person who has adequate sukrti (sukrti-van).

Srila Sridhar Maharaj,

Sambandha, abhideya, prayojana. Srila Govinda Maharaj: Who is Srila Raghunath Das Goswami's guru, who is it really? Srila Sridhar Maharaj: It is a complicated case. By the will of God it is transferred. When he was a married man himself, Raghunatha Das Goswami took diksa from Yadunandana Acharya, a grhasta (married man). Then he went to Mahaprabhu and Mahaprabhu handed him over to Swarup Damodar. We may take Yadunandana as an ordinary siksa guru, vartmapradarsaka guru. The beginner, the canvasser. Something like a ritvik representative. Not the guru proper. But a representative has come as Yadunandana and has helped Das Goswami in the right way. Otherwise Srila Raghunatha Das Goswami could not be attracted by the charming personality of Mahaprabhu. Raghunatha Das Goswami approached Mahaprabhu, and Mahaprabhu himself we may take as Radharani. He is Krishna in the garb of Radharani. Raghunatha Das Goswami came there to meet Mahaprabhu in Puri, and Radharani (Mahaprabhu) placed him under the charge of Swarup Damodar, Lalitadevi. He handed him over to Lalita devi. But we trace that Das Goswami's tendency is always towards Mahaprabhu. Although Mahaprabhu deputed Swarup Damodar as his guru, again Das Goswami approached Mahaprabhu and told him "I can't understand why you have taken me, snatched me from my family. Give definite directions to me." Then Mahaprabhu told him something in a nutshell. "Do this, and don't do this." He told Das Goswami, "What I don't know, Swarup Damodar knows it for certain, elaborately. So, I have rightly deputed him to train you on my behalf." So again he put Das Goswami in the hands of Swarup Damodar. Then of course Das Goswami went on with his bhajana in a very stern manner. After the disappearance of Mahaprabhu, Das Goswami left there, thinking, "I would like to have a view of Vrindavan and then I will try to finish my life. No more prospect is to be seen in my future life." But when he came to Vrindavan he found Mahaprabhu present there in Rupa and Sanatan. His plans disappeared. "Mahaprabhu is here!" He was especially attracted to Rupa Goswami. His internal connection, his sympthetic chord, he found with Rupa. Thereby we are taught that, passing through so many ups and downs in the life of a sadhaka, he at last comes to Rupa and there he thinks that he has reached the desired station. Mahaprabhu named this the Rupanuga Sampradaya. What is this Rupanuga sampradaya? The first disciple of Mahaprabhu is Rupa Goswami - although Rupa Goswami took his formal initiation from Sanatan Goswami. But Mahaprabhu met Rupa first, and secondly he met Sanatan. So, Rupa-Sanatan, and not Sanatan-Rupa. Sanatan is the elder. But we are saying "Rupa-Sanatan", because the first recognition by Mahaprabhu was of Rupa. Then Sanatan next. So, "Rupa-Sanatan". Now, what is the real meaning of Rupa Sampradaya? You are to mark it very attentively. madhura rasa is the total rasa and the most intense of all rasas. It is all accommodating. Twenty four hours engagement of service with Krishna is only possible in madhura rasa. For there is a possibility of reaction, that tendency of seeking leisure, tiredness, in all other rasas, even vatsalya rasa. Sometimes the father or the mother may think, "I am too much tired, I shall do the arrangement of feeling a little after." But in madhura rasa there is no reaction. The difference between Rupa Manjari and Lalita and the sakhis - these are of course things of the very higher order - we should not have the audacity to enter into these subtle points - still, when that question has come to me about Raghunatha Das, then by divine arrangement I am going to say that when Radha Govinda are alone in union, the sakhis of the higher order do not approach that place but the manjaris can go. The junior sevakas, they can go to perform any service necessary there, because due to their lesser age they are allowed. And the higher friends of Radharani keep at some respectable distance. So when Radha-Govinda are alone in union the highest quality of rasa is to be found in their lila and that is approachable for the juniors. That, is for the manjaris, not for the sakhis. So the highest attainment is to be located in Rupa, the leader of that group. That junior group who has got the special advantage of the special service in that stage. So, Rupanuga Sampradaya. Wherever we are we shall have to accept that that is the acme of our fulfillment. That point. And for Das Goswami there was already a formal guru. First we may be attracted by the highest peak of the Himalayas. Then when approaching, we see so many other beautiful peaks. So we are attracted by Krishna in general, then from Krishna, we come to a proper Vaishnava, a proper location according to the necessity of my innate nature. In this way, from Mahaprabhu to Swarup Damodar, and with permission of Lalita he comes to Rupa, and the point of Rupa, that is the place of our highest attainment. And that has been shown in the lila of Das Goswami Prabhu. Das Goswami has been accepted as the Acharya of Prayojana tattva. What is our highest necessity, that is in his hand. Das Goswami is the proyojana acharya. But the whole thing must be approached with the mood of divinity. Where there is the plane of dedication and nothing of enjoyment, no spirit of pleasure seeking or enjoyment, when there is service to the divinity to the extreme, it reaches the zenith there with Sri Rupa Manjari .. The Acharya of sambandha (knowledge of the divine relationship to Sri Krishna), we are told, is Sanatan Goswami. He has given us a graphic description of the environment of the spiritual world. "Who am I?" Sanatan Goswami put this question to Mahaprabhu and Mahaprabhu gradually gave the description of everything, in detail. "What is what? Who are you?" - jivera swarup hoi, krsnera nitya das. In a nutshell, in one word, you are the slave to Krishna. It is not a very easy thing to get the service Krishna. So, "jivera swarup hoy". "Nitya das" means "born slave, born servant." That is slave. That was the clarion call in a high voice that was declared first, "jivera swarup hoy," with such great pride, magnanimous pride. Such a dignified position the jiva soul has got. But now in the garb of a master he is the slave of maya, of ajnana, of ignorance; but his real position, his innate position, is that Krishna has got his Autocratic power over the jiva soul. So fortunate they are. So very fortunate. Such a close connection with Krishna the jiva has got in an innate stage. "Jivera swarup hoi krsnera nitya das krsnera tatastha shakti, bheda bheda prakash". But at present it is not found in the soul. It is in his prospect that he is such, but in his present position the soul comes from the line of demarcation, the marginal potency, and so his entrance into maya has been possible. krsnera tatasta sakti bhedabeda prakash. Adaptability towards both sides is within the soul. tatastha sakti bheda bheda prakash, something common and something different. In this way, Mahaprabhu began teaching Sanatan Goswami. And Sanatan Goswami put question after question and he got Mahaprabhu's answers. Then he in turn gave out the conception about the environment and the position of the jiva soul and Bhagavan. He taught "Who is who". This is sambandha. Rupa Goswami generally deals with abhidheya, the means to the end. How to attain our desired position? That is abhidheya. What comes naturally from the Veda, from the srauta (revealed scriptures), what flows naturally: "what do you want us to do, oh Lord?" That is abidheya. What is the natural implication of the sruti (message of the scriptures) that has been given to us by Krishna? That is abidheya. So Sri Rupa Goswami is the abidheya acharya, teaching the means to the end, sadhana. Rupa Goswami has elaborately given the way forward and described how to get there. A step by step process. adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango' tha bhajana-kriya tato' nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah "In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and then attachment. This is the way of sadhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually spiritual emotions manifest and intensify, then finally there is an awakening of divine love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead." (B-r-s, 1.4.15-16) The gradual process is to take us to enter into our home. Prema sneha mana pranaya raga anuraga bhava mahabhava. This has been graphically described by Rupa Goswami, in detail: "This is the way and in this plane do this, and then the next step is this, and then the next step is this, and in this way, you can come to the highest". That has been given by Rupa Goswami. The means to the end. How to come to the desired goal. And prayojana-tattva has been given by Das Goswami because he has clearly and boldly asserted that our necessity is not so much with Krishna as with His highest servitor, Radharani. Because generally we come from tatasta sakti and we have got a limited prospect. And our limited prospect to its highest degree will take us to the highest servitor, the eternal servitor in madhura rasa, Srimate Radharani. Das Goswami declared boldly, "Krishna, I do not want you if I do not find Radharani there. I want rather to be in the service of Radharani". The devotee is feeling, "Oh Krishna, I cannot really give you the supply of the highest type of service. So, what is the necessity of going in the front rank? I was wandering in the street just the other day, and I have got such audacity that I will come nearest to you, and venture to render service to You? No! There are permanent servitors there in your abode and how high they are! And what a high quality service they are rendering! I must admit that, if I am really liberated and really I am graced. I must understand my real position. I must not cross the original and higher servitors. That will be a fault in me and that will be suicidal. That will defeat its own object. So, my highest goal will be to help the real and eternal servitor who is taking that grave charge of serving you in a high way. That is the right thing for me. And also our necessity is that we are in the serving group. So the serving master is our group-leader. Naturally I must accomodate my aspirations with the serving leader. I am not hankering after Your direct service but the service of the leader servitor. I must try to earn the confidence of her or him who is the leader. Then if I do this I am seeking and searching for your proper service, Krishna. Otherwise, it would be self-seeking in some form or other (selfishness)." So, Das Goswami boldly declared that Radha-dasyam is the highest end, highest attainment. That should be our highest end, the summum bonnum. Radhadasyam. In Krishna's abode there is Radha-dasyam, or Yashoda-dasyam in Vatsalya rasa, or Nanda-dasya. The leader of every camp, the highest leader, our real concern should be to be serving them. Our attention should be there. That is what Das Goswami told. And then gradually we come to Rupa, the leader of the juniors. This has been clearly explained in Das Goswami's sloka. asa-bharair amrta-sindhu-mayaih kathancit kalo mayati-gamitah kila sampratam hi tvam cet krpam mayi vidhasyasi naiva kim me pranair vrajena ca varoru bakarinapi For me somehow the present moment is flooded by a nectar ocean of many hopes. If You do not give Your mercy, then of what use to me are this life, the land of Vraja, and Sri Krishna, the enemy of Baka? (Sri Vilapa-kusumanjali, verse 102) When Prabhupada (Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami) used to explain this stanza, this sloka, his figure was transformed into something like a phantom. "asa-bharair amrta-sindhu-mayaih kathancit, kalo mayati-gamitah kila sampratam hi, tvam cet krpam mayi vidhasyasi naiva kim me, pranair vrajena ca varoru bakarinapi." In this stanza Das Goswami is appealing to Radharani, "For a long time I am cherishing the hope, this sweetest hope, amrta-sindhu-mayaih, from faraway I am fostering such a hope, that I shall come to serve you, Radharani. I am hoping I shall get the privilege of serving you. Anyhow, I am dragging myself forward with this infinite and sweetest hope, that I shall get the chance of serving you. That I shall get the service of your divine feet. But now, I think I have come to the last verge of my hope. No longer can I contain myself. No longer can I live. l cannot breathe any more. The last moment or last circumference of my hope, I have reached, my master. If you won't be satisfied with me and accept me then I can no longer stand or sustain my life. Anyhow, somehow, I have dragged myself to the last moment of my life. l have come to the final conclusion, that I feel this way: of what use is this Vraja, what is the use of my life, if I cannot reach this, my sweetest goal, my dream? What is the use of my life any further? Dragging, dragging, dragging on my life. What shall I do with this great Vraja dham of such a renowned acquaintance? Oh beautiful feet! Even what should I do with Krishna? I don't want them. The whole concentration of my bhajan is this. You, Oh Srimate Radharani, will serve Krishna. You have got that capacity, it is natural. And if I serve you, if I utilize myself to serve you so that by service through you the service may pass to Krishna, then that will be the highest attainment of my fortune." Das Goswami declared it. Das Goswami. And still even now, that is the highest point of our achievement for the whole Gaudiya Sampradaya. Das Goswami is the Proyojana Acharya.

Sripad Swami B. G. Narasingha:

Come out Mr. Sleeper-Vadi? Where are you? Please come out of your hole! Mr. Beggar wants to Play!

What evidence do you have to support your opinion?

Maybe a realized soul can detect if a letter is by another realized soul or by his unrealized (or partially realized) secretary. Perhaps such a person could detect whether an instruction in a letter by a realized soul is for universal application or time, place and circumstance. Or maybe we intuitively have the right answer but we are receiving opposition from others, so need some clarification.

Wow! Notice how when quotes like this appear, the Sleeper-Vadis temporarily disappear. It must really bewilder them that everything they believe does not exist has so much detail. They seem to believe that the "evil" Gaudiya Math has mistranslated the books of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur to lure everyone into some kind of "hidden" impersonalism. They should go and read the ISKCON translation, done by the Bengali Sarvabhavana das. They will be stunned to see that all the English translations are pretty much the same. Maybe since Sarvabhavana is from India then he can't be trusted either? But here's the big thing, since everyone who doesn't accept Sleeper-Vada is in their view is an impersonalist or mayavadi, then they better watch out. Just by associating with us they can become contaminated. Didn't you ever wonder why they don't really read any post that is philosophical and then reply. They must have been told by their leader (guru) Ramai Swami, not to read any serious rebuttals to their concocted bizzare theory. He must have told them, "don't look, if you look too carefully then you'll become an impersonalist, a "vardi". Is this for real? Somebody pinch me.

Sell or no sell. The principle of siksa guru is universal.

You can begin to understand the mind of the diksa guru with the help of the siksa guru.

The problem arises as Srila Sridhar Maharaj said some twenty-six years ago, "when the lower section comes to oppose the higher section." About the GBC he said, "they are coming to attack what they are trying to become." Such is life in the greater ISKCON community which includes cyberspace almost three decades later, with no end in sight.

According to that definition one can refer to an individual jiva as a jiva tatastha. But parasya shaktir vividhaiva sruyate, the Lord has unlimited energies. So the tatastha shakti is an energy of the Lord and is therefore infinite. This doesn't mean the individual jivas are infinite (they are infinitesimal), but one implication of this is that there are an infinite number of jivas. Then by definition the tatastha shakti is infinite. The Lords energies are infinite and always expanding, so there are always new jivas being generated, although this all takes place beyond time and is inconceivable to our tiny brains. Now the next question is whether the tatastha shakti of the Lord is a place or a region? tata means the shore of a river, lake or sea. Where does the sand end and the water begin? Very tricky! But since everything exists within consciousness or brahman (the consciousness of Bhagavan or God) is any where a place or region? So we can see that all these terms and definitions are given for us, the conditioned souls as a road map to go back home, back to Godhead. The idea that in our conditioned state only time separates us from our eternal existence in Krsna Loka is a good thought. But such a thought must be applied in the proper way. I believe that this is the crux of the debate here. I also believe that Svarupa, Sarva-gattah, Vigrah, Asvathama, Ramai Swami are fearful of looking at this in an objective way. Its like if they have have a rational debate and consider anything that we write that they will be consumed by the bogey man of impersonalism. Over the last two days we have brought up two questions, then three, then four and asked for an answer. But nothing is forthcoming, only rhetoric and propaganda.

Check out krishna.com. I don't see it in their current list. You might want to call or e-mail them. The Narayana Maharaja group's version is good also. Their's is at the bhakti store www.bhaktistore.info/ You can also download different editions for free.

Symbiotic Panentheism: Simply put, Abstract, and Synopsis by Daniel J. Shepard

Citations are hard to find on the internet, but here is one for you, read the quote. I did the work for Shakti-fan who is sleeping on the job. "Modern Cosmology: God and the Resurrection of the Dead" <center> by </center> <center> Professor Wolfhart Pannenberg, D.D., D.D., D.D. Institute for Fundamental Theology University of Munich</center>

Although none of the non-ISKCON Gaudiya Camps like Sarvabhavana for a number of reasons some of them secretly admit that his translation may be the most accurate English translation of all.

Jaiva Dharma published by Kesidamana das Posted September 12, 2004 Dear Vaisnavas, We are happy to announce the publication of the Jaiva-dharma of Srila Sac-cid-ananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura, translated by Sriman Sarvabhavana dasa for the appreciation of the Vaisnava devotees. In London, 23rd September1969, on the appearance day celebration of Srila Bhaktivinoda, Srila Prabhupada gave a lecture on the life and teachings of the Thakura. In the lecture, Srila Prabhupada explained: "So Bhaktivinoda Thakura happens to be an acarya, one of the acaryas. And he has left behind him many books-Caitanya-siksamrta, Jaiva-dharma. These are very important books. They're in Bengali and Sanskrit. ...So we are trying to present Bhaktivinoda Thakura's books also in an English translation. Gradually you will get them." The translator, Sarvabhavana dasa, was personally ordered by his spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada, to translate the Vaisnava works into English. To date this he has done with distinction with many publications, being expert in his first language, Bengali, and also English. The present offering, Jaiva-dharma, has been published in splendid style with one of the best presses in India, Thompson Press, New Delhi. There are eight original paintings, four of which were specially commissioned, an elaborate introduction, and the book is presented hard-bound with a gold-embossed cover and laminated dust jacket. To facilitate the many blissful hours of study and contemplation this most important and recommended work warrants, fine paper and a comfortably sized font has been used. In our humble efforts to fulfil the desire of Srila Prabhupada and serve the Vaisnavas, we pray for your blessings, Hare Krsna, Kesidamana dasa. E-mail: kesidamana.ACBSP@pamho.net

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.5.11, 73/10/25 Bombay, Bhagavad-gita 13.26, So this is our real position to simply hear submissively and render service.

Pretty Please:crying2:

That be true boss. Rukmini's relationship with Krsna is eternal. That's why this is all on the mental platform. We only really "know' when we are on the real spiritual platform. But we can also accept the truth when we hear from authorities like Srila Sridhar Maharaj and then understand Srila Prabhupada's teachings in proper perspective. Accepting and realizing are different things entirely.

From The Krsna Book. Chapt 52

Yes, once again I am going over the edge. Thanks I need that!

Come out Mr. Sleeper-Vadi? Where are you? Please come out of your hole! Mr. Beggar wants to Play! ("D", Come out of your hole!)