Beggar

Are Srila Prabhupada's statements about the position of Christ essential for the development of Krsna bhakti? Personally I can't see how they are, but this brings up again the concept of the universality of a belief in a Supreme controller. To deny such universality of the spiritual experience is to deny reality and a retreat into sectarean factionalism. Such a mentality is actually anti-devotional and ends up getting expressed by such vehicles as extreme right wing Hindu Nationalisim which is just really politics. Such persons probably spend one lifetime as a Hindu and then the next life as a Muslim and on and on.

Jayatirtha had no association with Narayana Maharaja only with Sridhar Maharaja. Do you really think that Srila Sridhar Maharaja, considering his background could conceive of the depravity of Jayatirtha's behaviour? No one except in his inner circle knew of Jayatirtha's use of hashish and LSD at that time. Even his wife, Manjuali d.d., was in the dark over this. He was not at all honest with Sridhar Maharaja about what was really going on with him. Even by this time Jayatirtha had basically gone mad from his extreme abuse of psychedelic drugs.

So much duality is on this thread, and arguing over different angles of vision of the sastra and sadhus of various sampradayas. But the purpose of these statements by sastra, sadhu and guru is not that it become fodder for arguments. tarko pratisthanat, every truth can be established and subsequently defeated by logic. So what is the point? All these concepts are there to help the practitioner in their sadhana and ultimately develop bhakti and spiritual realization. Devoid of the real process the same words become nothing but empiric knowledge simply to be wrangled over by arm chair (w/keyboard and mouse) philosophers. The unfortunate result is that we will inevitably be lead into Vaisnava aparadha and then bury ourselves even deeper. If we wish to project our mundane egos, why not just play internet chess or some similar game?

Therefore conceptions given by the guru that are not paramartha but rather naimittika (not eternal dharma) are not essential to the cultivation of bhakti. This would also include the Moon and Sun distances from Earth, the death penalty etc.

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

The Words of Srila Prabhupada on Women BY: BRAHMA DASA May 06, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA (SUN) — The following editorial contains excerpts from a letter and my response to the questions it contained. The letter was used with the permission of the author who is a member in good standing of ISKCON. Her name has been withheld at her request. Dear Brahma Prabhu, I read your posting on Vaisnavi.org called Paternalistic Scriptures. I noticed that dissatisfaction with certain statements from Srila Prabhupada on the nature of women comes up frequently enough to be considered one of the main topics that you are forced to address. Even though I have been a faithful devotee in Iskcon for many years, I feel that some of Srila Prabhupada's statements regarding women are keeping the Krsna consciousness movement in the dark ages. I appreciate the balanced and relevant way that you and Swami Tripurari have approached this subject so I would like to ask you some questions. Please excuse me if my questions are too straightforward. Dear dasi, Like many of Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciples, I became troubled by some of the statements he made about women and the way they were considered absolute. Only after I became acquainted with the teachings of Bhaktivinoda Thakura was I able to personally resolve these issues. It was Bhaktivinoda Thakura who pioneered the use of a more rational approach to presenting Krsna consciousness in modern times. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura writes, "Acaryas who appeared before Thakura Bhaktivinoda did not address their discourses so directly to the empiric thinkers." (The Harmonist, December 1931) Bhaktivinoda's writings in Sri Krsna Samhita are distinguished from those of other acaryas by his discussion of the two sides of our religious tradition. These he refers to as artha-prada or relative information based on time and circumstance, and paramartha prada or the absolute or essential teachings of the tradition. According to Bhaktivinoda Thakura, relative information can be incomplete or incorrect even though it might be found in scripture or spoken by a self-realized devotee. To emphasize this point he states that one is free to disregard relative information in his own writings if it is found to be incorrect. This position would allow one to disregard certain comments Srila Prabhupada made on relative issues, the most obvious being that women's brain size was almost half that of men. This is a piece of information that he attributed to Dr. Urquhart, a professor at Scottish Churches College the institution that he attended in Calcutta. The question is whether or not Srila Prabhupada's other comments on the nature of women fall within the category of relative or absolute. The dictionary defines absolute as complete, perfect, and free from limitation. Following Bhagavad-gita 2.16 devotees have defined absolute as that which is satah or true in all times and circumstances. Taken at face value do his controversial comments on the nature of women conform to either of these definitions of the word absolute? Are women always less intelligent and untrustworthy in comparison to men? Are women always required to be under the direct protection of a man? The answer to these questions is no. Neither do these contentions about women conform to Bhaktivinoda's concept of paramartha, as they are all nonessential to the culture of bhakti. Therefore according to Bhaktivinoda Thakura one is free to overlook them. Furthermore Bhaktivinoda says that even scripture is affected by the bias of its author(s). He writes: "It is an obvious fact that a man is greatly devoted to his homeland and even great sages (who wrote scripture) were influenced by this tendency." Srila Prabhupada grew up at the turn of the 19th century in a culture where women were considered to be almost the property of men. In Srila Prabhupada's words, Woman is never to be given independence. According to Vedic civilization, woman should be given protection. Srila Prabhupada cites this scriptural advice throughout his writings and conversations, but did he think that it was absolutely essential to the practice of Krsna consciousness for women to be under the control of men? The answer is no. Though he considered the scriptural model ideal, Srila Prabhupada showed his flexibility in letters to his female disciples Yamuna and Dinatarini by approving of ashrams for women under their supervision. Bhaktivinoda Thakura taught that devotees should know what is essential and also accommodate the provisional nature of scripture. This is what Srila Prabhupada did when he approved of ashrams for women under the supervision of women, rather than demand that scriptural mandates placing women under the protection of fathers, husbands, or sons be observed in all circumstances. Provisional means provided for a temporary necessity with the understanding that a permanent arrangement is forthcoming. The only permanent arrangement is Krsna consciousness, which transcends the provisional nature of scriptural advice. Bhaktivinoda taught that saragrahi or essence seeking devotees should understand this point and make whatever adjustments are necessary in order to be fixed in sadhana. Only sadhana, under the guidance of an advanced devotee, will enable one to realize absolute harmony and enter the mysteries of Krsna bhakti. Bhaktivinoda's concept of saragrahi refers to devotees who are able to distinguish between the essential and nonessential and put the former into practice. In contrast he refers those who stress the nonessential at the cost of the essential as baravahi or outward-seeking devotees. Whenever there was a clash between the two Srila Prabhupada stressed the essential, adjusting his position on many relative issues. Establishing the brahmacarini ashram was one such instance, allowing his disciples to wear secular clothes for preaching purposes was another. Srila Prabhupada was devotionally perfected not perfect or infallible in any mundane sense. All considered, understanding Krsna consciousness in terms of absolute and relative is especially helpful in this information age when anyone can scrutinize Srila Prabhupada's exact words on any subject, words that in every case might not have been for consumption by the general public. In the opinion of Srila Prabhupada's esteemed Godbrother Srila B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, knowledge of the absolute and relative position of the guru is essential to a comprehensive understanding of guru tattva. This is the background of our approach to harmonizing Srila Prabhupada's spirituality with his controversial words on women. The following are the questions that you posed in your letter followed by my comments. Q: In 'Paternalistic Scriptures' you wrote that times have changed since Srila Prabhupada made those controversial statements about women and were he with us today he would surely present his message more in tune with modern times. I am a grand-disciple and can only go by what I have heard about him from others, but the idea in ISKCON is that Srila Prabhupada's words were for all people of all times. Why then do you feel that in modern times Srila Prabhupada would have adjusted his teachings on women? A: In the 1960s and early 1970s America's conscience was centered on the Vietnam war, the civil rights movement, and the 'hippie' dilemma. These events had eclipsed the issue of women's rights to some extent. When Srila Prabhupada arrived in 1965 the National Organization for Women, which was to champion the cause of women's rights, had not yet been formed and the law did not provide women with equal employment opportunity or equal access to higher educational and professional schools. Thus there were not nearly as many women doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects and politicians as there are today. Reflecting their status at that time was the fact that married women were not issued credit cards in their own names and employment classifieds had separate columns for men and women which meant that women could not even apply for the majority of jobs that were available. Also less than one out of twenty-seven girls played high school sports, as there was no facility provided for them to do so. The high school I graduated from in 1970 offered boys' football, baseball, basketball, swimming, wrestling, and track, but only swimming and cheer leading was available for girls. The ratio of girls who play competitive high school sports today is one in three. Further revealing are the results of a poll taken in 1973 showing that twenty-six percent of both men and women, (one fourth of the nation's adults) said they would not vote for a women president, the figure is only around five percent today. Religion also played a major role in thwarting equal rights for women. Thirty-plus years ago America was still largely influenced by a Christian ethic that relegated women to subservience under men. Religious marriage ceremony at that time reflected this by requiring the bride to vow to honor and obey her husband to be, whereas the groom had only to vow to honor and cherish his future wife. Support for the subservience of women was taken from the Christian Bible, the same book that Southern Baptists and others had drawn their support of slavery and racial segregation from. These examples illustrate that Srila Prabhupada faced a different preaching field than we do today. Women at that time were not as emancipated and the ideal of equal rights for women had not yet been embraced by American society to the extent that it is today. Although there was opposition to Srila Prabhupada's statements that women were less intelligent, there was at the same time still an underlying social acceptance that women were to be subservient to men. Acceptance of this today is radically less than what it was in the sixties and early seventies. Even Srila Prabhupada's own disciples and grand disciples are reconsidering this contention and its relevance to practicing Krsna consciousness in modern times. The fact that Srila Prabhupada often made practical adjustments in consideration of social norms demonstrates that his mission was not based on establishing ancient Vedic rules in Western society. Rather his emphasis was the practice of essential Krsna consciousness, which transcends social rules and norms. Srila Prabhupada said, “The acarya knows how to adjust things. The real purpose is how one will take to spiritual consciousness, or Krsna consciousness. Keeping one's aim to that point some concession may be given. As far as possible, keeping pace with the time, circumstances.” (Prabhupada lecture 2-20-73) Therefore I personally believe that had he come to America today, he would have adjusted his comments about women as he found that those who were sincerely interested in Krsna consciousness encountered them as a major stumbling block to practice. After all, his goal was to spread Krsna consciousness, not to alienate people from involvement in his movement. Another example of his flexibility is expressed in this letter where he de-emphasized statements he had made about Vedic astronomy after he understood how disturbing they were to some of his disciples. Srila Prabhupada wrote, "These things are not very important, we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations, we are concerned with Krsna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam." (Letter 72-11-07) Q: Isn't it true that Srila Prabhupada's controversial comments about women are over-generalized, making them inconclusive by objective analysis? Doesn't the growing trend of women to become financially and socially free from their otherwise decreed position of dependency under men show that they prefer this when given the choice? A: The guru's statements are not always conclusive when they refer to material issues. This is Bhaktivinoda's point about relative and absolute. Your words growing trend indicate that during Srila Prabhupada's preaching years, American women were much more resigned to dependency under men then they are today. Many women, especially those in third world countries still remain entirely dependent on men by force of culture or religion. Regardless of socio-religious ideals, the fact remains that in modern times men cannot be fully trusted to honorably protect women or to consistently supply their livelihood and spiritual education. Therefore quite naturally women will feel the need to become socially, financially, and religiously independent. Independent women are in no way barred from practicing essential Krsna consciousness, and in many cases independence from men has been helpful to their spiritual practice. Q: In Canto Four of Srimad Bhagavatam Srila Prabhupada states that women like a man who is expert at rape. Why would Srila Prabhupada write this? This statement, even if it were true, does not help the cause of bringing readers to Krishna consciousness. A: Srila Prabhupada did not always use words that were appropriate to our frame of reference. In this case I always felt that he used the word rape in error. What Srila Prabhupada is saying in this purport is that women are attracted to aggressive lovers. Rape means something else entirely. Rape is defined as having sexual intercourse with a person against their will. Indeed, how does it make sense to say that a person wants something that is against their will? Either way this statement about what women are attracted to sexually is not absolute by any means. In this case, and in many others, I personally feel that his editors, in a spirit of humble service to him, might have done him a disservice by not bringing to his attention the negative side of some of the controversial things that he wrote about women. In his book The Hare Krsna Explosion, Hayagriva dasa relates that Srila Prabhupada told him to edit his Bhagavad-gita so that it would be acceptable to the academic community. In our present social climate writing that women are less intelligent, untrustworthy, or like men who are expert at rape, is certainly not acceptable to anyone in the academic community. Therefore I believe that Srila Prabhupada would have wanted to be advised how statements like this would affect appreciation for his books, as we know that he wanted his books to serve future generations by helping to bring them to essential Krsna consciousness. Q: This brings up the point of how those who consider themselves the followers of Srila Prabhupada want to take his statements on women. Taking them verbatim for all time seems to be one reason why ISKCON is so bogged down with the problems it is having in this area. Don't you think that continuing in this way will make ISKCON more and more irrelevant to educated people as time marches on? A: I agree that the Krsna consciousness movement is bogged down with misogyny, gender bias, and fundamentalism, making it irrelevant to educated people in the west. This may be one reason why Iskcon must now largely look to members of the Indian immigrant community for support of its temples here in America. ISKCON's position on women's rights, although unacceptable to the vast majority of Americans, may still be somewhat acceptable to the Indian immigrant community, but I believe not for long. Iskcon has made some progress in the right direction, but I feel that the real solution lies in understanding and preaching the difference between what is essential and nonessential to the practice of Krsna consciousness. This dynamic preaching would help make the Krsna consciousness movement respectable to educated people. This is what Srila Prabhupada wanted. He was not interested in rigidly promoting nonessential cultural rules at the expense of spreading Krsna consciousness. Q: I have seen a number of women reject Krishna consciousness or leave even after years of practice because of the constant discouragement they face in the struggle to overcome gender bias passed off as something spiritual. What can be done to help them? A: I reiterate that the teachings of Bhaktivinoda Thakura on the relative and absolute aspects of religion are helping many devotees avoid such crisis of faith. However, we must understand that the ability to separate the essential from the nonessential and put it into practice on some level is largely a matter of one's underlying spiritual eligibility. Bhaktivinoda describes the vast majority of devotees as having komala sraddha, or tender faith. Those of tender faith will be distracted from the practice of Krsna consciousness by almost any opportunity that arises, regardless of which organization they are affiliated with. Our solace lies in knowing that life after life souls are progressing toward Krsna through bhakti. Bhakti qualifies one for further bhakti; bhakti is the means and the end. As a soul becomes genuinely attached to the practice of bhakti, material issues become less and less significant. Other than this there is no end to the problems of life. Obviously there is more to say and it may not be possible to address this matter to the satisfaction of all concerned. Still, all devotees should try to empathize with those whose practice of Krsna consciousness is affected by this sensitive issue. Mahaprabhu Sri Caitanyadeva was concerned with how even the trees could be engaged in devotional service. We are more than trees; we are human beings with diverse psychologies. According to Mahaprabhu we are superior to plants and animals not because of our ability to philosophize, but because of our ability to love. Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote that chanting the Holy Name and kindness to everyone is the essence of the religion of Sri Caitanya. Being true to his spirit requires that we try to help one another make progress in devotion. What the word help indicates will vary according to ones realization, but in all cases it is through chanting, kindness, and service to a higher Vaisnava that our love for Sri Krsna is actualized.

The aim of the Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta is to put one's mental faculties in a particular position to appreciate the inner moods of the Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas such as Rupa and Raghunatha das Goswamis. The same is surely true for the Ramanuja and Sri Sampradayas etc. It is improper for those who identify with different bonfide sampradayas to sit around on the internet and argue over these differences. Best to just offer repects to each other at a distance rather than risk the inevitable offenses (aparadhas).

<table><tbody><tr><td>Ādi-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 6: The Glories of Śrī Advaita Ācārya </td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 6.79 ananta brahmāṇḍe rudra — sadāśivera aḿśa guṇāvatāra teńho, sarva-deva-avataḿsa SYNONYMS ananta — unlimited; brahmāṇḍe — in the universes; rudra — Lord Śiva; sadāśivera aḿśa — part and parcel of Sadāśiva; guṇa-avatāra — an incarnation of a quality; teńho — he also; sarva-deva-avataḿsa — the ornament of all the demigods. TRANSLATION Rudra, who is an expansion of Sadāśiva and who appears in unlimited universes, is also a guṇāvatāra [qualitative incarnation] and is the ornament of all the demigods in the endless universes. PURPORT There are eleven expansions of Rudra, or Lord Śiva. They are as follows: Ajaikapāt, Ahibradhna, Virūpākṣa, Raivata, Hara, Bahurūpa, Devaśreṣṭha Tryambaka, Sāvitra, Jayanta, Pināki and Aparājita. Besides these expansions there are eight forms of Rudra called earth, water, fire, air, sky, the sun, the moon and soma-yājī. Generally all these Rudras have five faces, three eyes and ten arms. Sometimes it is found that Rudra is compared to Brahmā and considered a living entity. But when Rudra is explained to be a partial expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is compared to Śeṣa. Lord Śiva is therefore simultaneously an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu and, in his capacity for annihilating the creation, one of the living entities. As an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu he is called Hara, and he is transcendental to the material qualities, but when he is in touch with tamo-guṇa he appears contaminated by the material modes of nature. This is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the Brahma-saḿhitā. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Tenth Canto, it is stated that Lord Rudra is always associated with the material nature when she is in the neutral, unmanifested stage, but when the modes of material nature are agitated he associates with material nature from a distance. In the Brahma-saḿhitā the relationship between Viṣṇu and Lord Śiva is compared to that between milk and yogurt. Milk is converted into yogurt by certain additives, but although milk and yogurt have the same ingredients, they have different functions. Similarly, Lord Śiva is an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu, yet because of his taking part in the annihilation of the cosmic manifestation, he is considered to be changed, like milk converted into yogurt. In the Purāṇas it is found that Śiva appears sometimes from the heads of Brahmā and sometimes from the head of Viṣṇu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Sańkarṣaṇa and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vāyu Purāṇa there is a description of Sadāśiva in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. That Sadāśiva is a direct expansion of Lord Kṛṣṇa's form for pastimes. It is said that Sadāśiva (Lord Śambhu) is an expansion from the Sadāśiva in the Vaikuṇṭha planets (Lord Viṣṇu) and that his consort, Mahāmāyā, is an expansion of Ramā-devī, or Lakṣmī. Mahāmāyā is the origin or birthplace of material nature.

<table><tbody><tr><td>Canto 10: The Summum Bonum</td><td class="m">Chapter 14: Brahmā's Prayers to Lord Kṛṣṇa</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.14.38 jānanta eva jānantu kiḿ bahūktyā na me prabho manaso vapuṣo vāco vaibhavaḿ tava go-caraḥ SYNONYMS jānantaḥ — persons who think they are aware of Your unlimited potency; eva — certainly; jānantu — let them think like that; kim — what is the use; bahu-uktyā — with many words; na — not; me — my; prabho — O Lord; manasaḥ — of the mind; vapuṣaḥ — of the body; vācaḥ — of the words; vaibhavam — opulences; tava — Your; go-caraḥ — within the range. TRANSLATION There are people who say, "I know everything about Kṛṣṇa." Let them think that way. As far as I am concerned, I do not wish to speak very much about this matter. O my Lord, let me say this much: As far as Your opulences are concerned, they are all beyond the reach of my mind, body and words. PURPORT This translation is quoted from Śrīla Prabhupāda's Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līla, Chapter Twenty-one, Text 27.

Dark Warrior, go back and looi at posts 39 - 42 on this thread and you will see the Gaudiya siddhanta on this topic by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

I don't believe there is anything discussed about it in the verses (slokas).

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Sri Brahma-samhita 5.29 cintamani-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vriksha- lakshavriteshu surabhir abhipalayantam lakshmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami SYNONYMS cintamani -- touchstone; prakara -- groups made of; sadmasu -- in abodes; kalpa-vriksha -- of desire trees; laksha -- by millions; avriteshu -- surrounded; surabhih -- surabhi cows; abhipalayantam -- tending; lakshmi -- of goddesses of fortune; sahasra -- of thousands; sata -- by hundreds; sambhrama -- with great respect; sevyamanam -- being served; govindam -- Govinda; adi-purusham -- the original person; tam -- Him; aham -- I; bhajami -- worship. TRANSLATION I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, the first progenitor who is tending the cows, yielding all desire, in abodes built with spiritual gems, surrounded by millions of purpose trees, always served with great reverence and affection by hundreds of thousands of lakshmis or gopis. PURPORT By the word cintamani is meant "transcendental gem." Just as Maya builds this mundane universe with the five material elements, so the spiritual (cit) potency has built the spiritual world of transcendental gems. The cintamani which serves as material in the building of the abode of the Supreme Lord of Goloka, is a far rarer and more agreeable entity than the philosopher's stone. The purpose tree yields only the fruits of piety. wealth, fulfillment of desire and liberation; but the purpose trees in the abode of Krishna bestow innumerable fruits in the shape of checkered divine love. Kama-dhenus (cows yielding the fulfillment of desire) give milk when they are milked; but the kama-dhenus of Goloka pour forth oceans of milk in the shape of the fountain of love showering transcendental bliss that does away with the hunger and thirst of all pure devotees. The words laksha and sahasra-sata signify endless numbers. The word sambhrama or sadara indicates "being saturated with love." Here lakshmi denotes gopi. Adi-purusha means, "He who is the primeval Lord." Shreela Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvati [shree Gaudiya Math, Calcutta, the 1st August, 1932]

<table><tbody><tr><td>Madhya-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 14: Performance of the Vṛndāvana Pastimes</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 14.122 svarūpa kahe, — śuna, prabhu, kāraṇa ihāra vṛndāvana-krīḍāte lakṣmīra nāhi adhikāra SYNONYMS svarūpa kahe — Svarūpa replied; śuna — please hear; prabhu — O my Lord; kāraṇa ihāra — the reason for this; vṛndāvana-krīḍāte — in the pastimes of Vṛndāvana; lakṣmīra — of the goddess of fortune; nāhi — there is not; adhikāra — admission. TRANSLATION Svarūpa Dāmodara replied, "My dear Lord, please hear the reason for this. Lakṣmīdevī, the goddess of fortune, cannot be admitted to the pastimes of Vṛndāvana. Madhya 14.123 vṛndāvana-līlāya kṛṣṇera sahāya gopī-gaṇa gopī-gaṇa vinā kṛṣṇera harite nāre mana SYNONYMS vṛndāvana-līlāya — in the pastimes of Vṛndāvana; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; sahāya — assistants; gopī-gaṇa — all the gopīs; gopī-gaṇa vinā — except for the gopīs; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; harite — to attract; nāre — no one is able; mana — the mind. TRANSLATION "In the pastimes of Vṛndāvana, the only assistants are the gopīs. But for the gopīs, no one can attract the mind of Kṛṣṇa." Srila Narayana Maharaja: HERA-PANCAMI [CHAPTER SEVEN OF THE ORIGIN OF RATHA-YATRA]

As previously quoted on another thead, Srila Narayana Maharaja: The same is true of Srimati Radharani and Her expansions. They are one "but by rasa-vicara (the consideration of transcendental mellows, humors or relationships) they are different." This is how the lilas or pastimes of the Lord unfold.

Srila Narayana Maharaja ONE POINTED BHAKTI

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Is it really important if the line the jiva is standing on, is really a line (or place) if indeed this description is from the viewpoint of the jiva manifesting which is a thought couched from the viewpoint of past, present and future - not the eternal present? The same is true of the statement that the jiva, "came down from Goloka millions of years ago" despite the fact that it was uttered by Srila Prabhupada himself. "Millions of years ago" is a concept of time, not the eternal present. These thoughts are just tools, the tools to engage us in sadhana bhakti to get out of this world, and go home back to Godhead - or realize that we are already liberated and then endeavor to act on that level of conciousness. Until we are seeing Krsna face to face what is the real importance of our words? ...only then will we really "know".

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

Then why is your avatar picture, a picture of Sri Sri Radha Krsna? I never heard of Sri Narayana playing a flute? CC Madhya 23.84-85: "'Above Nārāyaṇa, Kṛṣṇa has four specific transcendental qualities — His wonderful pastimes, an abundance of wonderful associates who are very dear to Him [like the gopīs], His wonderful beauty and the wonderful vibration of His flute. Lord Kṛṣṇa is more exalted than ordinary living beings and demigods like Lord Śiva. He is even more exalted than His personal expansion Nārāyaṇa. In all, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has sixty-four transcendental qualities in full.'

What Srila Sridhar Maharaja gave was based on what the sastras say about the origin of the jiva soul. We can't find anywhere the question posed to him about "the eternal present". Also he really didn't care to talk so much about this topic and advised those who heard from him to not give this topic so much focus. He certainly used to tell Srila Prabhupada's disciples and followers, "back home, back to Godhead"! Perhaps those who compiled the talks by Srila Sridhar Maharaja into books had some agenda back in the early and mid-eighties. Those persons had just recently been embroiled in some very heavy ISKCON politics. What is difficult to understand is that the sastric version is really just a series of analogies used to give some approximation of reality as if the soul originates or manifests or expands from Godhead or His energies. But the branch of the tree is not the moon for which we are ultimately looking, for the moon is not really sitting on the branch after all, it just appears that way.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Jaiva Dharma Table of Contents <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Preface [by Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja] (written for the third Hindi edition) <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Gaudiya Vaisnava Guru Parampara <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Introduction [by Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja] <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 1 -- The Eternal & Temporary Dharmas of the Jiva <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 2 -- The Nitya Dharma of the Jiva is Pure & Eternal <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 3 -- Naimittika-Dharma is to be Relinquished <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 4 -- Vaisnava-Dharma is Nitya-Dharma <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 5 -- Vaidhi-Bhakti is Nitya not Naimittika-Dharma <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 6 -- Nitya-Dharma, Race & Caste <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 7 -- Nitya-Dharma & Material Existence <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 8 -- Nitya-Dharma & Vaisnava Behavior <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 9 -- Nitya-Dharma, Material Science & Civilization <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 10 -- Nitya-Dharma & History <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 11 -- Nitya-Dharma & Idolatry <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 12 -- Nitya-Dharma, Sadhana & Sadhya <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 13 -- Pramana & The Commencement of Prameya <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 14 -- Prameya: Sakti-Tattva <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 15 -- Prameya: Jiva-Tattva <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 16 -- Prameya: Jivas Possessed by Maya <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 17 -- Prameya: The Jivas Free from Maya <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 18 -- Prameya: Bhedabheda-Tattva <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 19 -- Prameya: Abhidheya Tattva <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 20 -- Prameya: Abhidheya – Vaidhi-Sadhana-Bhakti <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 21 -- Prameya: Abhidheya – Raganuga-Sadhana-Bhakti <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 22 -- Prameya: Prayojana Tattva <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 23 -- Prameya: Sri-Nama-Tattva <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 24 -- Prameya: Nama-Aparadha <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 25 -- Prameya: Namabhasa <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 26 -- Introduction to Rasa-Tattva <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 27 -- Rasa-Tattva: Sattvika-Bhava, Vyabhicari-Bhava & Rati-Abhasa <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 28 -- Rasa-Tattva: Mukhya-Rati <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 29 -- Rasa-Tattva: Anubhavas in Santa, Dasya, & Sakhya Rasas <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 30 -- Rasa-Tattva: Anubhavas in Vatsalya & Madhurya Rasa <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 31 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Krsna’s Svarupa, the Nayaka, & Svakiya-Nayikas <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 32 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Parakiya-Nayikas <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 33 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Sri Radha’s Svarupa, Five Types of Sakhis, & Messengers <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 34 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Sri Radha’s Svarupa, Five Types of Sakhis, & Messengers <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 35 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Uddipana <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 36 -- Sthayibhava & Stages of Rati <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 37 -- Srngara-Rasa: Srngara-Svarupa & Vipralambha <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 38 -- Srngara-Rasa: Mukhya-Sambhoga & Asta-Kaliya-Lila <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 39 -- Entering Lila <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Chapter 40 -- Attaining Prema – the Supreme Wealth <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Glossary of Terms <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Glossary of Names Glossary of Places <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> General Index <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Index of Quoted Slokas <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Contacts Around The World <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> <!--[endif]--> <hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"> Return to

Here is Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's (Babaji's) answer to your question, and here is the same question being posed in slightly different manner by his character Vrajanatha:

All Glories to the eternal Theist inside all of us, and his original form:

So why the fighting over the origin of the soul? ...the soul is eternal and from that viewpoint - the viewpoint of the eternal present - has no origin. So why the fighting over the "origin"? But then again the soul does have an origin, but that's from the angle of vision of time. We cannot pretend to be in "the eternal present" if really we are still so attached to our bodies and minds. The sastra have given so many analogies like the sun and particles of the sun's rays, but that's just an analogy. And anyway we are told that we cannot really understand these things in our present state of consciousness, so why should we pretend that we do? There is no Gaudiya Math conspiracy to drag us back into impersonalism. This is an old ISKCON myth that has no connection with reality. The only thing that can really drag us down is Vaisnava aparadha.

But Babaji had just finished saying, and, You have Babaji Maharaja and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur at war with themselves. Yet everything is answered there, including what you have to say, only Babaji Maharaja (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur) says it much better than you! Think, what does he mean by,