Beggar

One Big Impromptu Smile BY: KURMA DASA May 14, AUSTRALIA (SUN) — My parents migrated from Scotland to Australia in the 1950's, told then that Australia was the land of milk and honey and that there was plenty of money to be earned. (Little did they know it was like Gilligan's Island.) I have two brothers and one sister. We lived about 15 kilometers from the city and our father used to regularly take us by train to the City of Melbourne. We would visit the Museum, or the botanical gardens, and many other landmarks around town. My most memorable visit to the City was in 1972. I was 12 years old at the time, and we were walking along Swanston Street, on a day that happened to be the day a Ratha Yatra parade was coming down Swanston Street in Melbourne's CBD. There was all this noise of drums, cymbals, and what seemed to me at the time, to be yelling. I asked my father what are these people doing, my father said that they were probably students from the Melbourne University, performing some sort of prank, which they did regularly in those days. We moved closer to the curb to have a look. At this point I could see a large statue, which I now know to be a Deity of Lord Caitanya. Walking a little distance near the front of the Deity was a Magnificent looking man, who I now know to be Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada was wearing a saffron beanie and was turning around every so often, and looking back at the very large Deity. As the procession came very close to us, Srila Prabhupada happened to look over toward us. At this point He looked at me and smiled. As a 12 year old boy who wasn't too in touch with his emotions, I still have a vivid memory of how emotionally overwhelmed I felt from that one smile. It was like thunderbolt hit me, I couldn't understand it. In 1977 my brother, who was with me at the time in 1972, was killed in a motor car crash. He was 16 years old at the time. Our family was devastated, and never really got over it. At this point I began wondering what life was all about. I started researching spirituality and not long after in 1979, discovered ISKCON and the Hare Krishna Movement, which led to me to discover that Person who so mercifully smiled at me in 1972. Kurma Dasa (not the chef)

Here again we see evidence of the out of control projection of ego. cbrahma takes the opportunity to deeply insult Kulapavana that he is trying to "minimize Prabhupada" as if this relative neophyte is a maximizer of Prabhupada through his rejection of the different limbs of devotional service which he sees as burdensome, like "jumping through hoops."

Exactly - siksa guru parampara. But Bhaktivinoda Thakura was a contemporary of Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja. Their relationship was face to face not only through a book. The books left by Srila Prabhupada are extremely important. But in those books the importance of a face to face relationship with a bonafide guru (siksa or diksa) is explained.

We are talking about accepting the guidance of those is in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura who had an affectionate relationship with Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabupada and who are our well wishers. One could hardly dismiss them as "traditional Hindus", unless one using this as an attempt to obfuscate the discussion.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 5.131 "yāha, bhāgavata paḍa vaiṣṇavera sthāne ekānta āśraya kara caitanya-caraṇe SYNONYMS yāha — just go; bhāgavata paḍa — read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam; vaiṣṇavera sthāne — from a self-realized Vaiṣṇava; ekānta āśraya kara — fully surrender; caitanya-caraṇe — at the lotus feet of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. TRANSLATION "If you want to understand Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam," he said, "you must approach a self-realized Vaiṣṇava and hear from him. You can do this when you have completely taken shelter of the lotus feet of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu." Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: Srila Narayana Maharaja:

Jadurani dasi:

<table class="body" align="center" bgcolor="#ffffff" cellpadding="8" cellspacing="0" width="615"> <tbody><tr> <td> All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Sri Brahma-samhita Prologue written by Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaj and referred to by His Divine Grace in his informal darshan in our Dum Dum Park Temple, Kolkata, 28 April 2008 (This darshan is available as video and audio) <hr> <hr> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math, Nabadwip http://scsmath.com | Main Centres | What's New?</td> </tr> <tr> <td> <hr> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Somewhere, someone very important is smiling,

Bravo and jaya! This is the only position a sane devotee can take.

The reason Suchandra calls me a guru-tyagi is because I accept instructions from a guru other than my diksa guru, Srila Prabhupada. But I know that Srila Prabhupada and all the bonafide sadhus see it this way. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.35, Purport: gurūn — unto the spiritual masters spiritual masters is plural!

I really don't understand how your brain works Suchandra. Your last post was irrelevant. You discriminated between siksa and diksa gurus in a very crude manner. Admit it, repent and go on. Too proud? I guess so. What's it matter anyway, only a very few persons are reading this anyway.

I have previously supplied evidence by quoting passages from cbrahma's posts from a few months back that show that he was at that time displaying very shaky faith in the entire process of Krsna Consciousness. It is also a fact that currently cbrahma is attacking the historical standing of all of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers and their good names while at the same time advocating his faith in Jesus Christ. He also continues to scoff at the entire process of Gaudiya Vaisnava diksa. It is my idea from experience over the years that such a mentality is to be abandoned for it is certainly unfavorable for real Krsna bhakti.

Again we will look at Suchandra's statement: Here he equates Srila Prabhupada's unique, excellent position with that of a messiah (or the Messiah). If you consider messiah more than an ancient Hebrew term then we could also use the word saviour. But in his English writings Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has referred to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as "the Saviour of the East" (opposite but symmetrical to Jesus Christ as the Western Saviour). So Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Caitanyite vision he sees that in the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the samasta guru in His Acarya Lila. Of course the Thakura is only following in the footsteps of Srila Krsna das Kaviraja for this is what he has given in Caitanya Caritamrta. But here Suchandra has failed to understand the oneness and difference between a real guru in the line of Mahaprabhu and Mahaprabhu, Himself, even though we offered it to him by referirng to verse number itself. Now let's look at the sloka, But Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Krsna, Himself with the bhava or mood and kanti or effulgence (or color) of Srimati Radharanai. So then is Srila Prabhupada actually Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, since he is according to Suchandra, the saviour? Srila Krsna das Kaviraja has answered this in a previous verse in the same chapter, Now here Kaviraja Goswami is referring to his guru who we know to be, Srila Raghunatha das Goswami. But Raghunatha das Goswami is not his diksa guru but rather his siksa guru and there is no mention anywhere about Kaviraja Goswami's diksa guru and here is where the idea of the siksa or Bhagavat guru paramapara comes from in our line. Again: Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.47, Purport Yet Suchandra has committed this very offense right before our eyes: And he cannot own up to it. For he would rather take the position of judging the relationship of Srila Prabhupada's direct disciples with their guru because of his highly offensive position which is has no basis in guru, sadhu and sastra.

Right and Radhanatha Maharaja and Jayapataka Maharaja have thousands of disciples because their disciples never canvas or campaign for new followers. It sounds like a double standard to me. Talk about an agenda, Several months ago cbrahma was on a mission to smash everyone's faith in Hari, guru and vaisnava. But now that his ego system has flipped over to Mr. Prabhupada-Onlyite (except for Jesus Christ) he wants to satisfy his monster ego by blaspheming the devotees who are most itimately related to the diksa line of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. These guys are so busy hurling offenses that they have no time to actually read Prabhupada's books. Or even if they do look at the words on the page their offensive mentalities block any chance of them digesting what they read. Oh, BTW, this is why a conditioned practitioner needs the association of a real guru and real sadhus at every step of the way. The Lord works in mysterious ways, so actually cbrahma is one big advertisement for why one needs a guru.

The above statement is the Suchandra Purport but it is thoroughly defeated by the Bhaktivedanta Purport to Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.47, It is also told in Caitanya Caritamrta that the diksa guru is nondifferent than the rupa of Krsna and that the siksa guru is nondifferent than the swarupa of Krsna. You can't find out the difference between the rupa and the swarupa of Krsna because there isn't any. Suchandra you should know better than this!

<center> The Sons of the Son: The Breakup of the Gaudiya Matha http://www.bvml.org/contemporary/JD_tsots.html by Sriman Jalakara dasa (ACBSP) </center> Actually Sridhar Maharaja claimed that he was reluctant to support Ananta Vasudeva as acarya and did not do so at first. Later some leading sannyasis came to him and told, "Maharaja if you do not put the weight of your endoresment behind Vasudeva Prabhu, then the Mission of our Gurudeva will splinder into myriad factions." Then he claimed that he did so with reluctance. At the end of Vasudeva Prabhu's reign as so-called acarya after his affairs became somewhat known, he is said to have abused many of his godbrothers including Sridhar Maharaja, their only offense being that they wanted to know the truth.

Very beautiful, Prabhupada is taking no credit, he also is like Vyasadeva, "How merciful he was", How merciful is the asraya tattva of the Lord.

Again the same cynical eye that was doubting the very process of Krsna Consciousness that was first successfully given in the West by Srila B.V. Prabhupada is now suggesting that what he calls the Gaudiya Math, are "scam artists " albeit in an indirect manner. It's obvious that in this mentality the Gaudiya Math plays the role of the boogey man. This is part of the societal aparadha of misunderstanding that was passed down to him by ISKCON circles. This societal aparadha goes back as far as the late 1960's. In their world the "Gaudiya Math" devotees are an underclass of unfortunate beings to be scoffed at and perhaps to await a Final Solution. Such ignorance masquerading as God Consciousness is so full of prejudice that it compares to the racism of the Jim Crow era in the American South. Well at least they should be "ignored". But the most close spiritual relatives of Srila Prabhupada, his godBROTHERS and their disciples and grand-disciples are not seen as part of an extended Krsna Conscious family but rather "true" Christians are. This is a profound hypocrisy. Perhaps this is part of what other posters have recently called the "Hare Christian" phenomena. Of course what partly obscures this truth is that some of those oppossed to Hare Christianity fail to see the universality of the human spiritual experience. But in their blindness the Prabhupada-Onlyites cannot see how that universal and specific general experience of spirituality and specific experience of Caityanite spirituality can possibly be there in those most intimately related in Sri Caitanya's line. Then the Prabhupada-Onlyites condemn the so-called "Gaudiya Math" for not preaching but deeply resent it when their present day disciples travel and preach all over the world. Because they misinterpret certain statements by Srila Prabhupada and fail to see them in their overall context they believe that they have carte blanche to commit Vaisnava Aparadha, 1) To blaspheme the devotees who have dedicated their lives for propagating the holy name of the Lord. [Nectar of Devotion, BBT] In their superficial approach to what is given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu they tend to ignore the confidential teachings (even after so many years) such as what is given in Caitanya Caritamrta and the Ramananda Samvad. They want to stick to analyzing the material elements through the applied Sankhya of the Bhagavatam and obsess about WWIII, make plans to break up the worlds population into the four varnas and feel comfortable in their club by villifiying the outcast, "Gaudiya Math". And then they wonder why the preaching is going poorly and long for the "good old days". Who cares why Srila Rupa Goswami pleased Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu so much for knowing his inner heart, his mano-bhistam. Who cares about the inner heart of Srila Prabhupada? Who cares about the fact that Srila Prabhupada idenified himself as the sevant of Srimati Radharani in the Krsna Book. Let's just use what we think is Srila Prabhupada to bash everyone who is not of our mentality.

How do you define being a follower of A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada? What does it mean to be a follower of any bonafide guru? It appears that you are saying that this experience is based on faith. But what do you mean that one can become Krishna conscious instantly? Do you mean that he can bless one with his mercy. Do you believe that you are already Krishna conscious? This goes to one of my previous questions, do you believe that Krsna was like a puppeter and ventriloquist and was making Srila Prabhupada move and talk. Or does by saying that Krsna really wrote his books, did he mean that Krsna is coming through the guru paramapara and that he was perfectly connected by the intensity of his surrender to his guru and his line? Whether I am personally a follower or not, do not consider that when pondering this: Do you believe that other devotees in the disciplic lines coming from Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers can also appreciate his unique contribution or are they somehow barred? Would you like those in these lines to appreciate him or would you like to restrict it to a particular formal consideration? You statements in the above paragraph are confusing to me. I really am not sure what you are driving at exactly or really why you are saying what your saying. You're certainly not answering my question about Prabhupada's humility.

Sri Guru and His Grace God Consciousness vs. Society Consciousness Responding to the necessity of the times Srila Sridhara Maharaja lucidly explains the absolute societal conception of Krsna consciousness: Devotee: Within a religious mission, sectarian policies may appear to bar the path of progress and pragmatic concerns take precedence over spiritual ideals. Should one risk leaving the formal institution or should he try to remain within and work out the problems? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Progress means elimination and new acceptance. So, when there is a clash between the relative and the absolute standpoint, the relative must be left aside, and the absolute accepted. The example is given of a socialist in a country of capitalists. When there is a clash, one will not express their creed for the sake of peace. But to maintain the purity of their faith for the socialists they will try to leave and join the socialists. Higher Ideal So, the absolute and the relative are two different classes of interest. And we find more importance in the absolute interest. We must be sincere to our own creed. The form is necessary to help me in a general way to maintain my present position. At the same time, my conception of the higher ideal will always goad me to advance, to go forward, and wherever I do, I must follow the greater model, the greater ideal. Spiritual life is progressive, not stagnant. We are in the stage of sadhana, and we want to go ahead, not backwards. The formal position will help me to maintain my present status, and my extraordinary affinity for the ideal will goad me towards the front. The search for Sri Krsna is dynamic and living, so adjustment and readjustment is always going on. And we should also change our present position accordingly, so that we may not have to sacrifice the high ideal for which we have come. Einstein had to leave Germany and go to America for his high ideal of life. And so many similar instances may be found in the world. The ideal is all in all. The highest ideal in a man is his highest jewel. Our most precious gem is our ideal. Many things are recommended in the scriptures, but they are meant to promote us towards the truth in an indirect way (sva-dharme nidhanam sreya ). [bg 3.35] It is recommended at a certain stage that for the sake of our close friends, we should give up our ideal. But in the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna's final instruction is sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: "If it is necessary to maintain the highest ideal, you must give up your friends. Surrender to me. I am the real purport of the scriptures." The highest kind of idealists give up their country, their family, their friends, and everything else, but they can't give up their ideal. In the Bhagavad-gita, [3.35] Krsna says, "It is better to die while performing one's duty that to try to do another's duty." That is one stage of understanding: the relative consideration. The absolute consideration is also given in the Bhagavad-gita: sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [bg. 18.66]. Krsna says, "Give up everything. Come to Me directly." This is the revolutionary way. This is absolute. And this is relative: "Stick to your own clan. Don't leave them." That is the national conception. There is nation consciousness and God consciousness; society consciousness and God consciousness. God consciousness is absolute. If society consciousness hinders the development of God consciousness, it should be left behind. This is confirmed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.5.18): <center> gurur na sa syat sva jano na sa syat pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat daivam na tat syan na patis ca sa syan na mocayed yah samupeta mrtyum </center> Even a spiritual master, relative, parent, husband, or demigod who cannot save us from repeated birth and death should be abandoned at once." What to speak of ordinary things, even the guru, may have to be abandoned. One may even have to give up one's own spiritual guide, as in the case of Bali Maharaja, or one's relatives, as in the case of Vibhisana. In the case of Prahlada, his father had to be given up, and in the case of Bharata Maharaja, it was his mother. In the case of Khatvanga Maharaja, he left the demigods, and in the case of the yajna patnis, (the wives of the brahmanas ) they left their husbands in the endeavor to reach the Absolute Personality. We need society only to help us. If our affinity to the society keeps us down, then that should be given up, and we must march on. There is the absolute consideration and the relative consideration. When they come into clash, the relative must be given up, and the absolute should be accepted. If my inner voice, my spiritual conscience decides that this sort of company cannot really help me, then I will be under painful necessity to give them up, and to run towards my destination, wherever my spiritual conscience guides me. Any other course will be hypocrisy, and it will check my real progress. If we are sincere in our attempt, then no one in the world can check us or deceive us; we can only deceive ourselves (na hi kalyana-krt kascid durgatim tata gacchati ) [bg. 6.40]. We must be true to our own selves, and true to the Supreme Lord. We must be sincere. Disappearance of the Guru Devotee: After the disappearance of the spiritual master, how should the disciples continue the mission? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: You must not neglect your conscience. Otherwise you have no faith in your own cause. There may be disturbances but we should not leave the preaching of Mahaprabhu, despite all differences. Disturbances must come, and we must undergo them. Still, we must remain sincere; we must face the difficulty in a proper way. It has come to train us to go in the right direction. The Fire has Come to Test Us What we have received from our spiritual master we understood only in a rough estimation. Now, things have come in such a way that we have to scrutinize ourselves in every position. We have to analyze ourselves. Atma-niksepa, self-analysis has begun. We are under trial. What we have received from our spiritual master, in what way have we received it? Properly, or only showingly? The time has come to purify us, to test whether we are real students, real disciples, or his disciples only in face and confession. What is the position of a real disciple? If we live in a society, what is the depth of our creed? In what attitude have we accepted his teachings? How deep-rooted is it within us? The fire has come to test whether we can stand. Is our acceptance real? Or is it a sham, an imitation? This fire will prove that. So, this is the real field of sadhana, or practice. Our practice, our advancement needs these difficulties. Otherwise, we may not know what is progress, and we will become hypocrites, and give the adulterated thing to others. So, to purify ourselves, it is necessary that so many disturbances come. And God has no error. He commands the environment. It is not our responsibility. The responsibility of the environment does not rest upon us. If I am sincere, then I have to adjust myself with this environment and put my faith before Him. "Everyone may leave me, but I shall stand alone!" With this attitude we must march on, whatever the circumstances may be. Then the recognition may come in my favor, that "Yes, under such trying circumstances he is still there." Our superiors will be pleased with us. The relative and absolute considerations are always coming in clash. The absolute should be accepted and the relative sacrificed. Still the relative is necessary. After graduation from primary school another teacher is accepted for higher education, but that does not mean that the primary teacher is neglected or insulted. For our own interest, whatever we find which is akin to what was given to us by our guru maharaja, whatever we find that will enlighten us further, and whatever will help us to understand more clearly what we heard from our guru maharaja, must be accepted. Is my realization a living thing, or is it dead? Anyone who has come in connection with the infinite cannot but say this: "I am nothing." That should be the salient point. We have left all social concerns and so many other shackles. For what? For the Absolute Truth. And wherever I shall find that, I must bow down my head. And if a great soul shows us, "This is the path to where you will find your thirst quenched. The line is in this zigzag way," we must accept that for our own interest. We are worshipers not of this form, but of substance. Wherever I feel the presence of my Lord in an intense form, I must be attracted to that side. Krsna says, sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. Wherever we shall find Him, we must run in that direction. My interest is with Him. Not that we can challenge, "Why did Krsna appear here, and why is He appearing there?" If a man in a boat is passing through the current and finds himself in danger, then from whatever side help may come, he must run to that side. If we are worshipers of Siva, when we understand the special superiority of Narayana, should we stick to Siva? And then Krsna? In the Brhad-bhagavatamrta the story is told of how Gopa-kumara, by chanting his Gopala mantra, gradually leaves one stage and progresses to the next. There, the gradation of devotion is traced from the karma-kanda brahmana, to a devotee king, then to Indra, then to Brahma, then to Siva, from him to Prahlada, then to Hanuman, then the Pandavas, then to the Yadavas, to Uddhava, and finally the gopis. In this zigzag way he is passing. In the sincerity of his quest, his thirst is not being quenched until he goes to Vrndavana. So, the Brhad-bhagavatamrta has shown us the line of guru parampara, or the real line of our quest, of our search. Sincere Hankering for the Truth is Our Guide If we are sincerely searching after real truth, then wherever we go may be a contribution to our experience for further preaching in the future. We may cross many guru paramparas before ultimately attaining the Vraja-lila of Krsna, as given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sometimes the father may not be our guardian. Our uncle may be our guide, and not the father. It is possible. The line of interest is to be considered the most important. So, our line is the siksa guru parampara. I am thankful to those that are helping my spiritual understanding not only in a formal way, but in the real sense. Whoever is untying the knots of our entanglement in this material world, giving us light, and quenching our thirst for inner understanding and satisfaction is our guru. In this way, we live on the contribution of all these spiritual masters. They are all our siksa gurus. All the Vaisnavas are more or less our instructing spiritual masters. And our own sincere hankering for the truth will be our guide. That is guru parampara. So the real disciplic line provides practical knowledge in support of the divine love which is coming down. We must bow our heads wherever we find support of that. We should not become formalists, but substantialists; not fashionists, not imitationists, but realistic thinkers. That should always be our temperament. And what sort of saintly persons shall we try to mix with earnestly? In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.91) Rupa Goswami has said, sajati-yasye snigdhe sadhau sangah svato vare: Those who are in our line, who have the same high spiritual aspirations as we do, and who hold a superior position. To associate with such saintly persons will help us the most to progress towards the ultimate goal. There may be some obstacles, but if at heart we are sincere, the environment cannot deceive us, because God's inner help is there, cooperating with our sincere, inner need (na hi kalyana krt kascit durgatim tata gacchati) [bg. 6.40]. What we want from our innermost hearts cannot but come true, because Krsna knows everything. There may be some obstacles, but by Krsna's help, they shall all be eliminated and our innermost aspiration will be crowned with success. The formal societal position helps one to maintain their present status while our affinity for the high ideal will always push us to advance in Krsna consciousness. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.18 it is stated that whatever hinders our advancement must be left behind, even society consciousness. The society is there to help us, not hinder us. Our process is Krsna consciousness not society consciousness.

If Srila Prabhupada didn't believe in diksa, IOW giving the diksa mantras to his disciples (the different lines of Gayatri) then why did he perform this function? It is Srila Sridhar Maharaja who said that the Gayatri "mantra retires at liberation" and that the Mahamantra is eternal and continues even after liberation. In recent years this has been misunderstood by some so that they disparage the diksa process but was not the intention of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. If cbrahma wants to have an opinion these substantive and historical topics then he needs to the research and not just shoot from the hip. Of course the kind of research I mean in this context would require one to step back to some kind of neutral and dispassionate postion. One should not pose as if they know everything when they really don't. BTW, I certainly don't know everything and am learning a little bit every day.

Well theres clearly different ways to see this. Does he mean that Krsna is directly dictating to Prabhupada what to write? Is Krsna dictating what to write through the parampara line of commentators who came before Sri Prabhupdada? Are we to see it as just his humilty but really that although he says it's not his book, it really is? And how do you understand this? And why did you post it? How do you think that it relates to what I recently wrote on this thread?

Honestly, I don't understand your response.

First of all you forgot to capitialize Beggar. My full name is Beggar das Mleecha.