theist

What does Praladha say?

http://srimadbhagavatam.com/7/6/en1

7.6.1: Prahlada Maharaja said: One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form of body from the very beginning of life -- in other words, from the tender age of childhood -- to practice the activities of devotional service, giving up all other engagements. The human body is most rarely achieved, and although temporary like other bodies, it is meaningful because in human life one can perform devotional service. Even a slight amount of sincere devotional service can give one complete perfection.

SB 7.6.2: The human form of life affords one a chance to return home, back to Godhead. Therefore every living entity, especially in the human form of life, must engage in devotional service to the lotus feet of Lord Vishnu. This devotional service is natural because Lord Vishnu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the most beloved, the master of the soul, and the well-wisher of all other living beings.

SB 7.6.3: Prahlada Maharaja continued: My dear friends born of demoniac families, the happiness perceived with reference to the sense objects by contact with the body can be obtained in any form of life, according to one's past fruitive activities. Such happiness is automatically obtained without endeavor, just as we obtain distress.

SB 7.6.4: Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed toward Krishna consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development.

SB 7.6.5: Therefore, while in material existence [bhavam asritah], a person fully competent to distinguish wrong from right must endeavor to achieve the highest goal of life as long as the body is stout and strong and is not embarrassed by dwindling.

SB 7.6.6: Every human being has a maximum duration of life of one hundred years, but for one who cannot control his senses, half of those years are completely lost because at night he sleeps twelve hours, being covered by ignorance. Therefore such a person has a lifetime of only fifty years.

SB 7.6.7: In the tender age of childhood, when everyone is bewildered, one passes ten years. Similarly, in boyhood, engaged in sporting and playing, one passes another ten years. In this way, twenty years are wasted. Similarly, in old age, when one is an invalid, unable to perform even material activities, one passes another twenty years wastefully.

SB 7.6.8: One whose mind and senses are uncontrolled becomes increasingly attached to family life because of insatiable lusty desires and very strong illusion. In such a madman's life, the remaining years are also wasted because even during those years he cannot engage himself in devotional service.

SB 7.6.9: What person too attached to household life due to being unable to control his senses can liberate himself? An attached householder is bound very strongly by ropes of affection for his family [wife, children and other relatives].

SB 7.6.10: Money is so dear that one conceives of money as being sweeter than honey. Therefore, who can give up the desire to accumulate money, especially in household life? Thieves, professional servants [soldiers] and merchants try to acquire money even by risking their very dear lives.

SB 7.6.11-13: How can a person who is most affectionate to his family, the core of his heart being always filled with their pictures, give up their association? Specifically, a wife is always very kind and sympathetic and always pleases her husband in a solitary place. Who could give up the association of such a dear and affectionate wife? Small children talk in broken language, very pleasing to hear, and their affectionate father always thinks of their sweet words. How could he give up their association? One's elderly parents and one's sons and daughters are also very dear. A daughter is especially dear to her father, and while living at her husband's house she is always in his mind. Who could give up that association? Aside from this, in household affairs there are many decorated items of household furniture, and there are also animals and servants. Who could give up such comforts? The attached householder is like a silkworm, which weaves a cocoon in which it becomes imprisoned, unable to get out. Simply for the satisfaction of two important senses -- the genitals and the tongue -- one is bound by material conditions. How can one escape?

SB 7.6.14: One who is too attached cannot understand that he is wasting his valuable life for the maintenance of his family. He also fails to understand that the purpose of human life, a life suitable for realization of the Absolute Truth, is being imperceptibly spoiled. However, he is very cleverly attentive to seeing that not a single farthing is lost by mismanagement. Thus although an attached person in material existence always suffers from threefold miseries, he does not develop a distaste for the way of material existence.

SB 7.6.15: If a person too attached to the duties of family maintenance is unable to control his senses, the core of his heart is immersed in how to accumulate money. Although he knows that one who takes the wealth of others will be punished by the law of the government, and by the laws of Yamaraja after death, he continues cheating others to acquire money.

SB 7.6.16: O my friends, sons of demons! In this material world, even those who are apparently advanced in education have the propensity to consider, "This is mine, and that is for others." Thus they are always engaged in providing the necessities of life to their families in a limited conception of family life, just like uneducated cats and dogs. They are unable to take to spiritual knowledge; instead, they are bewildered and overcome by ignorance.

SB 7.6.17-18: My dear friends, O sons of the demons, it is certain that no one bereft of knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead has been able to liberate himself from material bondage at any time or in any country. Rather, those bereft of knowledge of the Lord are bound by the material laws. They are factually addicted to sense gratification, and their target is woman. Indeed, they are actually playthings in the hands of attractive women. Victimized by such a conception of life, they become surrounded by children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, and thus they are shackled to material bondage. Those who are very much addicted to this conception of life are called demons. Therefore, although you are sons of demons, keep aloof from such persons and take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, the origin of all the demigods, because the ultimate goal for the devotees of Narayana is liberation from the bondage of material existence.

SB 7.6.19: My dear sons of demons, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, is the original Supersoul, the father of all living entities. Consequently there are no impediments to pleasing Him or worshiping Him under any conditions, whether one be a child or an old man. The relationship between the living entities and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is always a fact, and therefore there is no difficulty in pleasing the Lord.

SB 7.6.20-23: The Supreme Personality of Godhead, the supreme controller, who is infallible and indefatigable, is present in different forms of life, from the inert living beings [sthavara], such as the plants, to Brahma, the foremost created living being. He is also present in the varieties of material creations and in the material elements, the total material energy and the modes of material nature [sattva-guna, rajo-guna and tamo-guna], as well as the unmanifested material nature and the false ego. Although He is one, He is present everywhere, and He is also the transcendental Supersoul, the cause of all causes, who is present as the observer in the cores of the hearts of all living entities. He is indicated as that which is pervaded and as the all-pervading Supersoul, but actually He cannot be indicated. He is changeless and undivided. He is simply perceived as the supreme sac-cid-ananda [eternity, knowledge and bliss]. Being covered by the curtain of the external energy, to the atheist He appears nonexistent.

SB 7.6.24: Therefore, my dear young friends born of demons, please act in such a way that the Supreme Lord, who is beyond the conception of material knowledge, will be satisfied. Give up your demoniac nature and act without enmity or duality. Show mercy to all living entities by enlightening them in devotional service, thus becoming their well-wishers.

SB 7.6.25: Nothing is unobtainable for devotees who have satisfied the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the cause of all causes, the original source of everything. The Lord is the reservoir of unlimited spiritual qualities. For devotees, therefore, who are transcendental to the modes of material nature, what is the use of following the principles of religion, economic development, sense gratification and liberation, which are all automatically obtainable under the influence of the modes of nature? We devotees always glorify the lotus feet of the Lord, and therefore we need not ask for anything in terms of dharma, kama, artha and moksha.

SB 7.6.26: Religion, economic development and sense gratification -- these are described in the Vedas as tri-varga, or three ways to salvation. Within these three categories are education and self-realization; ritualistic ceremonies performed according to Vedic injunction; logic; the science of law and order; and the various means of earning one's livelihood. These are the external subject matters of study in the Vedas, and therefore I consider them material. However, I consider surrender to the lotus feet of Lord Vishnu to be transcendental.

SB 7.6.27: Narayana, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the well-wisher and friend of all living entities, formerly explained this transcendental knowledge to the great saint Narada. Such knowledge is extremely difficult to understand without the mercy of a saintly person like Narada, but everyone who has taken shelter of Narada's disciplic succession can understand this confidential knowledge.

SB 7.6.28: Prahlada Maharaja continued: I received this knowledge from the great saint Narada Muni, who is always engaged in devotional service. This knowledge, which is called bhagavata-dharma, is fully scientific. It is based on logic and philosophy and is free from all material contamination.

SB 7.6.29-30: The sons of the demons replied: Dear Prahlada, neither you nor we know any teacher or spiritual master other than Shanda and Amarka, the sons of Sukracarya. After all, we are children and they our controllers. For you especially, who always remain within the palace, it is very difficult to associate with a great personality. Dear friend, most gentle one, would you kindly explain how it was possible for you to hear Narada? Kindly dispel our doubts in this regard.

Copyright © The Bhaktivedanta

I couldn't afford private school, so I really had no choice but public school.

This is why I am against central governmental control of the school system and strongly support the voucher system. Presently there is very little choice out there because the NEA union donates to the Democrats so the Dem's always fight the voucher system because the public school administers fear competition. The Republicans give lip service to idea once in a while but don't fight for it so they are useless.

Home schooling is there. But for some this is not practical either for a number of reasons. Why don't devotee families get together and help each other. Two or three families working together can pull it off no doubt. No need for an "offical authorized by Iskcon" stamp of approval. In fact I think some devotees are doing this. They used to have a web site up if anyone knows about this is be great to share with the original poster.

No more to say on this one. I'll leave with this quote from one of gHari's posts above for contemplation.

"There is not even a trace of maha maya in Goloka, therefore, no room for envy or forgetfulness of Krsna (even while dreaming.)"

 

Ooops, there's that nonsense supposition again. Ain't no maya in Brahmajyoti either.

"(Wh)ooops... there it is!" Chuckle chuckle chuckle

Well, I really cannot comment on things that are beyond my perception. If there is a 4th dimension and it is stated in the Sastra, then I will accept it. But what did you think of the Himalayas example to llustrate the presence of form? Do you think it makes sense?

You will have to explain to me the actual difference between the Himalayas in India and the Himalayas on a movie screen. Actual difference means apart from how humans may relate to it, like climbing or living on vs. just viewing. I would then say that climbing the Himalayas is an illusion for the soul just as seeing the Himayalayas on a screen is an illusion.

But aside from this if you can't come up with a name besides just plain Guest then please don't bother to respond.

I have a son who ready to start school. I have a simple question:

 

 

Gurukula or karmi school?

Krsna has placed this soul into your hands to care for and guide towards the goal of life. Why then would you consider placing that soul's forming mind into the care and instruction of atheists.!?

Semantics aside.. do you believe that once we RETURN BACK HOME TO GODHEAD, we can once again fall into this nightmarish dream? Say it aint possible?

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it is semantics.

I have nothing new to add. We have to go there to find the answer. Once there you will still have the free will to stay or come back.

*Do you want to know a secret about your doubt and why you have it? You are intelligent to know that if you continue on this Krsna consciousness path you will end up fully sold out to love for Krsna. It will consume you and rule your life. That seems like final death to you. But it is not of course. It is however final death to your false ego which at the present time you consider to be yourself. You are afraid of death, non existence,of what you consider to be the endless void, for (and it's true) that the extinquishing of the free will of the jiva is the DEATH OF THAT JIVA. The free will is integral to your very being. it is the boundary line that marks your self from another self including the Supreme Self. Without it activated you are just sitting in the brahmajyoti.

It is that free excercise of the surrender of the free will through dovetailing with the will of Supreme Lord that is the basis, the foundation of love. And it continues to be even in the full fledge Prema Bhakta.

Otherwise why would Krsna even excercise a material energy to form all these universes? Why would He not just start everyone off in the spiritual varigetiness with no chance of leaving? The answer is because because He is not so insecure and lacking in Self esteem that He must try and force love. He allows us to follow our own dreams until we become exhausted at their ineventable failure after failure. We must become thoughoughly exhausted of our material dreams.

Then we break down in earnest and begin our our search for Sri Krsna.

Best use of the activated free will is the responsibility the jiva has for maintaining an existence as an individual. Otherwise we may as well go take a nap in the Brahman effulgence.

*How do I know this about you? Because I have long ago seen the very same thing within myself. I have that same ahankara and fear of extinction in my own life today. By recognizing this I haven't cured it,...just all my other feeble excuses have been stripped away. I have no need for them after seeing through them. I am excruciatingly slow in Krsna consciousness because I fear going forward. I don't love Krsna because I don't want to. I don't practice a nice regulated sadhana because I don't want to. No more pathetic made up excuses.

In fact I am not trying to go forward at all. I am just trying to tread water and remain where I am. The wonderful thing is that by nature Krsna is the ultimate force of attraction. Like a secret rip current that pulls us in a certain direction even while we think we are maintaining our space in the water.

ps please add an identifier to you rname as guest. Not to do so after the first post or so is rude.

I personally am not trying convince anyone of the rightness of my thoughts on the matter. What I do want to do is show that those who mock the Iskcon position really have no argument that holds up to prove their position is absolute. Therefore as a subject for debate this one is a non- starter and should be dropped. All we can do is engage in some philosophical speculation on it until Krsna gives us the realization.

The joke seems to be on everyone, Theist. I don't see any contradiction between, " Nitya baddha souls have never been to Vaikuntha - so they are perpetually in illusion. Nitya baddha" and "when you understand that the time conception is illusory you can understand it further". Both concepts seem simultaneouly one and different. But the statement that "no one ever falls from Vaikuntha" is quite straight forward.

I see a big difference. The point is there is no past or future in the spiritual world. This subject cannot be understood by thinking sequentially. Because of the fact that there is no time conditioning there we can say no one ever falls.

If you dream that you are falling into a fiery volcano does that mean you are? When you wake up you see that you never left your bedroom and are thankful that it "was only a scarey dream."

I am convinced that we have to catch this by inspired intuition and not by mental speculation.

The forms on the screen are not real. For example, you may see a huge rock crash into a building but there really is no rock or building there.

 

On the other hand, the things in this material world and real and have form. A mountain such as Mount Everest, for example. If Mount Everest didn't have a form, we could'nt say it is 8,848 metres tall. The forms are not permanent because everything in this material world is temporary but the temporary nature of thngs doesn't take away the fact that the forms are there to see.

So you are saying that only 3 dimesionally perceived forms are real?

I read this on a lot of sites but not sure what the 3 worlds refer to. I know the physical world, and I assume world 2 is the astral world. So what is the 3rd world? I don't think they mean Vaikuntha, since I have heard about the 3 worlds being destroyed, and Vaikuntha cannot be destroyed.

I have heard the term 3 worlds used in referrence to the heavenly plantetary systems, the middle planetary systems, and the lower or hellish planet systems. Which corresapond to the three modes of nature whose interplay results in the manifestation of universal phenomenon.

heaven -- mode of goodness or sattva

middle -- mode of pasion or rajarsic

hellish -- mode of ignorance or tamas

This referrs to the predominant mode as in reality they are mixed to varying degrees.

Earth is a middle system planet which means we inhabitants can choosew to cultivate heavenly qualities and rise up in our next birth or descend by hellish qualities. We can remain in the middle for some time more also.

This is a great benefit in that cultivating goodness from a passionate state is easier than from a tamasic state. But the reverse is also true. it is easier to fall into ignorance from passion than it is from goodness. So the middle planets can be see as transit points from which we can make large changes in our fate. It's a great responsibility and oppurtunity.

I see the forms of matter in the same way as I see the forms on a movie screen. Are those forms really there on the screen? They appear to be. But are they really?

So far as I know, matter does have form. It is temporary and lifeless but not formless. If matter were formeless, we wouldn't have a well structured universe(s).

Of the eternal there is no cessation. Of the non-existent there is no endurance.

Like a hallucination one has while in a fever. We cannot say there was no hallucination, but when the fever breaks where is it now? So the material world has it's existence in a similar way.

We have no need to try and negate the idea of material form just the assumption that it is real as displayed. It is all based on our perception. When we look in a mirror we take our human form to be a solid structure and therefore real. But that is a very superfical perception on our part. If we look deeper we see the skin is not a solid one peice structure at all. It is made up of cells that are constantly dying off and replaced by new ones. And those cells themselves are just a collection of molecules that change position at every moment either entering the cell of being sent out from the cell. There is no endurance.

The form we see is based on our perception. An ordinary man sees the body in one way while a biologist may see something different and a physicist may envision it as a collection of even smaller subatomic particles.

Some say that between the gross physical collection of matter and the subtle astral plane lies the "plane of forces" where the very subtle forces of matter are visible to one who has this ability to see. So a metaphyscian may even see just the forces at play while not perceiving the so-called form at all.

We can't say that any of them are wrong. But we can say that none of them is perceiving all the various interplays of matter at work.

But this dismantling itself does not offer the full picture either. Buddha said, (so they say) " I see the petals..I see the stem...I see the leaf ... but I see no lotus flower." The lotus flower exists only as our perception of the combination of the petals, leafs and stem. So in this way they deconstruct everything down to a state of absolute void.

But this is incomplete. We see the lotus flower and can offer it to Krsna and accept it back as prasadam meaning that Krsna also saw it as a lotus flower, if not they how could He accept it?

So Vaisnavas complete the whole circle. From lotus flower through no lotus flower and back to lotus flower again without denying the truth of any of it. Apparent contradictions and all.

So the individual perceptions of forms in the material world have no real existence because they have no endurance. But when what we call matter is perceived correctly we see that it is also eternal because it is one of Krsna's energies and therefore nondifferent from Himself.

I read where BR Sridhar Maharaja referred to Krsna as being the greatest hypnotist. A man on stage under the influence of the hypnotist may conceive of himself as a dog and bark loudly while the audience laughs. The hynotist has altered his perception of himself as a human to a dog. He may even see others as dogs until the hynotic spell is lifted. This is our position under maya's spell. We take the unreal for real and vice versa. We take the formless and perceive form according to how maya tells us to accept it.

Our position is a million times more tragic than a man who thinks he is a dog sad to say.

A question. If the Bhagavatam is not correct about cosmology will that destroy your(general) faith in all of that great work? Will you lose knowledge and faith in the transcendental reality by admitting there may be a flaw somewhere? Is that not faith miss placed?

I don't read the Bhagavatam looking for detailed knowledge of the universal structure. The nature of the self, the Superself and our relationship still stands no matter where the moon is.

Can only offer encouragement. Been there big time. As a "child of the sixties" I use to feel sorry for people would had never taken LSD and had their minds properly expanded. By 17 yrs. I was burnt out and crazy from by two or three years of very very heavy LSD and ganja abuse and had graduated to injecting heroin and morphine. At some point in year 18 I receive a drop of mercy from Jesus Christ and the desire from nictotine to all illegal drugs just lifted. A miracle for sure. Along with my desire for drugs the desire to associate with anyone that had drugs lifted and then I met the Krsna kirtanaparty.

No drug problems for the next six years but then I relapsed and become addicted to ganja really heavily...more than before. Also started eatting loads of pysilicibin mushrooms which grew in my area. I went literally crazy for 5 years or so and barely ate solid food other than ginseng. I mean I became a madman, almost ghost like (and definetly haunted) although still chanting some everyday.

Quit again and have been repairing the brain damage now for the last 20 years drug free. And still if I found some buds on the sidewalk tommorrow I know i would light it up.

It has been an imperative for me NOT to become familar with anyone that has or does drugs. Better to be alone. But better than that is to befriend Krsna's active devotees and become influenced by their energy.

But please don't despair so much as to become overly harsh with yourself. that will just make it worse. It is just a passing bad dream and one you will wake up from.

You are eternal knowledge and bliss by constituiton. This material mind fog will lift by the Lord's grace. May Krsna please guide us all back to Him.

The souls in the material world are called nitya-baddha or eternally conditioned.

 

Souls in Vaikuntha are called nitya mukta.

 

What meaning is there in the term, "nitya" in the phrase "nitya mukta" if those souls can fall down into samsara.

 

Further, why would there be a distinction in scripture, where the Acharyas tell us there are two types of souls, nitya mukta and nitya baddha, if souls who are right now "nitya mukta" may, in the future, fall down into samsara?

 

It is absurd to call them nitya mukta if they are capable of falling from Vaikuntha and becoming cockroaches who eat stool. If there is a prospect that they can fall, the word "nitya" is meaningless.

 

Nitya baddha souls have never been to Vaikuntha - so they are perpetually in illusion. Nitya baddha.

 

The absurdity of this whole issue is laughable.

But the joke is on you.

When the soul is in the material dream it is totally cut off from it's realization of it's own spiritual existence. It remembers only small portions of it's material existence. So in that sense it is as good as eternally conditioned. Just like in a night dream one has no knowledge of the awakened state. Nitya-baddha.

When absorbed in Krsna consciousness that same soul has no sense of the material world in a similar way. Nitya-mukta.

Then when you understand that the time conception is illusory you can understand it further.

Forced misplaced will never stop WAR although it will win individual battles that we call wars. To get to the genesis of what causes war we have to trace back to the original offending karma's that cause the reactions we call wars.

What is needed is kysatriyas to apply force against those that slaughter cows and other animals by the billions just to taste their blood. We need leaders who will by force shut down the evil abortion mills, and etc.

Nasty deeds bring nasty results...war being one of them.

Who should I trust on the biological effects of Vit.C on the human body, the great sages of yesteryear or even today or Linus Pauling?

I believe in the principle of giving every person their due credit where credit is deserved.That includes the atheists.

2. Prabhupada is saying that first we fell down from Vaikuntha, then - and only then - we fell down from Brahman. That resolves the first part of apparent inconsistency with the pretty much universal view of the previous acharyas as presented in the quote from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (we all fell from Brahman).

In a sense falling through the brahmajyoti. Afterall as I understand it the spiritual form is based on one's desire to relate to Krsna in a certain mood. Cowherd boys are boys and not gopis. All based solely on Krsna's pleasure. If one desires to be the enjoyer instead of the enjoyed how could he maintain a form based totally on a particular rasa with Krsna? I believe at this point he falls into the brahmajyoti.

But it is not that someone suddenly disappears from Goloka and then in some great distant furure reappears. There is no such time consideration in the Spiritual Sky.

Souls from the material side can rise up into brahmasujya and then fall again to earth many times. In a similar way I believe that souls who fell into the Brahman from the Spiritual Sky side can reenter the Spiritual Sky from the Brahman without ever coming to the material side.

Falling into the Brahman from Vaikuntha is the real fall. Much more so than the fall from the Brahman into the material side.

Again PHILOSOPHICAL SPECULATION ONLY for conversation sake.

A lot of us view this differently and see the opposite to be true. Iskcon has made a huge issue over this, beginning in the early 80's, using it to discredit Srila Sridhara Maharaja, even going so far as to call him a mayavadi. They used it against one of "their own" in Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja, and they have also used it more recently in their position papers against Srila Narayana Maharaja, despite the fact that he rarely preaches on the topic. Devotees in Iskcon since the early 80's have been banned and/or made to feel most unwelcome, simply for not accepting the official GBC's version of jiva tattva. On the bright side, if these forums are any indicator, it seems that devotees within Iskcon, over the past year or so, have eased up just a bit and are at least willing to accept the possibility that the whole controversy is inconceivable, and not something to justify "spreading the hate" and causing sharp divides within the greater Vaishnava community.

My apologies to Guest. I did not intend on disturbing your mind. I have never been an Iskcon insider and after 1978 have never discussed these matters with anyone in Iskcon, occasionally going for Deity darshan and nothing more. I became aware of the controversie on the advent of the internet and from there it seemed that one group in particular was aggressively challenging Iskcon's position.

For anyone to call BR Sridhar Maharaja a "mayavadi" is a horrendous offense IMO.

After your post above and Babhru's confirmation of the facts I realize my mistake in even referring to this point of contention between parties. My bad. I certainly don't want to start this up again here.

Gossip is a form poison even materially. Malicious gossip pointed to a Spiritually realized devotee of Krsna is certain suicide for the speaker of it and willfully drinking of poison to those who try to enjoy it as some form of nectar. We wish to be in neither position.

Sold

If you can tell me where Srila Prabhupada says this very clearly in His books, I believe it, otherwise its just a dangerous speculation.

Guest, it makes no difference to me what you believe in this regard. Reread my previous posts if interested and you will clearly see I am talking on the platform of philosophical speculation and make no pretense as to final realization on the subject.

The heading on your post read, "there and here in the same time?"

I would ask you to consider the word time in your sentence. There is no illusory conception of time in the spiritual world. In the material world everything is sequential. Yesterday this was done and so now today must be done and tommorrow this other thing must be done. Therre is no past or future in the spiritual sky. Can you not conceive of that!? Well neither can I. Neither can any other time conditioned soul. That is the whole point. therefore this debate with some people challenging ISKCON's view and making a big stink over disagreeing with it as well as ISKCON's need to depend what they believe in this regard is a foolish disturbance and nothing more.

One who does understand it will tell enquirers that "they have to go there" to understand.

That should end the debate right there. The most we can do from our position is to try and go there as instructed and we may or may not want to philosophically speculate with others on the way, as we are doing here.

Thanks again to gHari who always posts The Crow and Tal-fruit Logic letter. gHari wasn't there another paragraph or two in the letter?

This is a great point. And this is wherein all the confusion lies. We keep plodding along trying to understand all these most subtle concepts with the dull and crude English language of the early 21st century. What a daunting task! Consequently most of these threads are mired in devotees arguing with each other over merely semantical points. It's kind of sad when you think about it, but then again it is Kali Yuga. The entire English language is based on duality. In our paradigm and language the tatastha is either a geographical place or it is not a geographical place. And then of course we are concerned as to whether the jiva is from the spiritual world or not from the spiritual world. Black and white, on and off etc. A great language and way of thinking for computer science and all technology but not Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja has said, "there is gradation everywhere". We have to deeply ponder this, as we need to ponder Mahaprabhu's concept of acintya bhedaabheda tattva, simultaneous oneness and difference.

For sure. Trying to fit spiritual truths into material languages of any type will always fall short but yet such is what bridges to higher thought are made of. Fortunately just an honest attempt to understand is pleasing to Krsna and His truth can reach us no matter.

English must be sorely limited considering it has arisen from a spiritually impoverished society. Srila Prabhupada however has enriched it much.

Guest,

Thank you for your contribution. I have read Bhagavatamrtam, the older Gaudiya matha version. I got a copy of Gopipranranadhana's part one and was blown away. It is very nice. I take it from your post that part two is out so I will have to get a copy.

Eternity is eternity. Room for anything to happen I figure. It is all rather inconceivable to me. We shall see.

Theist prabhu,

 

You ask some good questions. I remember reading on this forum something along the lines of what you have written- "Is the tatastha region then a state where the sleeping souls in the Brahman effulgence immediately arise to as they (re)gain or claim their individual natures and just prior to their desiring to be servant of the Enjoyer or the enjoyer themselves and sealing the direction that they will follow?"

 

That is pretty much what I read on this forum a few months back but it wasn't clear if the decision making of the jiva (servant of enjoyer or enjoyer) occured within the Brahman effulgence or a separate region called tatastha (I really don't know what that is except that it is contained within the body of Sri Visnu).

That was probably my post you read as I have never met anyone who thought the same way on this issue. I have been bringing it up on forums occasionally since the old VNN days. At first people mockingly laughed and then just ignored it for the last 6 or 7 years. I am very happy to have at long last two souls who are willing to track along with me in philosophical speculation on this. Since this subject it only understandable by those who are freed from the limitations of thinking in terms of space and time we should not think we will come to a conclusion here. But what we can do is learn to look for the answer to come into our awareness through spiritually inspired intuition if the Lord in the heart is pleased to tell us. IOW words we have to each go there to know.

Is tatashta a region or integral to the nature of the individual soul? Maybe an example would be an electron which is both a particle and a wave in that it depends on how we are viewing it.

If the awakening individual souls are viewed collectively then it would be seen as a region from which an individual soul arises. But when looked at closely the whole region is composed of only individual souls who are marginal in nature.

Depending on what decision the jiva made, his direction would be sealed. It just seemed a little strange because without actually seeing and experiencing Vaikuntha, how can a Jiva make a proper decision. If the Jiva had remembrance of vaikuntha at the time of making the decision, why would he ever choose the material world?

I know what you mean, I have wondered the same thing. This is what occured to me. When the soul while lying sleeping in the Brahman has no awareness of himself as individual he IS STILL an individual soul. Krsna knows every sleeping soul. He does not lose track of even one of His living emanations.

But what happens to cause that soul to stir and regain a sense of individuality while in the Brahman. There is no outward object to disturb his slumber. I believe that the soul does that himself by desiring to be. The most primal desire I can think of. The raw desire to be. Purely naked and at the souls most simple state of indiviual awareness.

Someone might call this the origin of the soul but we know this is not true because Krsna had already conceived him and had his eye on him.

Now there is no desire in the Brahman so at this point I believe the soul, just by the desire to be, has left the Brahman effulgence and is now in the region of other souls who have left the Brahman like himself, or the tatastha region. Also I believe this is why this region is said to lay(ly?) next to the Brahman effulgence as a separation between the Spiritual and material worlds.

I think of this as the PERFECTION of free will. Krsna's ways are so incredibly perfect that He not only gives us the choice of what to be but before that has given us the choice to be individual or remain in not being aware of that aspect of ourselves.

Now from this region of tatashta, we, after already having chosen to be, need to choose what we want to be. I don't believe this really entails the need to see into the spiritual sky and material sky and weigh our options. How could we? Just by such a calculation alone would mean we have have already chosen which path we want to follow. The path of "My will Lord and not Your will," not "What will make You pleased Lord but what will please me." That is the path of the soul deciding to be himself the prime enjoyer and not the enjoyed energy of Krsna.

What I believe happens is that form that holy place of free will each soul expresses a desire to serve or be served in some way. Remember the soul has no experience at all of the varieties of individual life experiences. No way then to weigh one against the other trying to decide which way is best to go. It must be almost as primal as the raw desire to be.

Finally, you say the Brahman effulgence is also the spiritual world. Is that true? Because nobody ever falls from the Spiritual world, be it the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka Vrindavana itself. I'm thinking (speculating) that i must be somwehere between the material and spiritual worlds. What do you think?

Well here is a thought in that regard. There is no consideration of past or future time in the Spiritual world that rules over the lives of the inhabitants. So if we did "fall" from Goloka even when we returned we would have no consideration of ever having left. So what fall are we talking about?

Another interesting thought is that just as beings may go from this material variety into the Brahman perhaps they can go from the Spiritual variety into the Brahman also.

Considering a "fall" from Vaikuntha; what does that entail? The spiritual worlds are based on active rasa with Krsna. So to fall away from that rasa would mean the entire spiritual form of cowherd boy or gopi or tree etc. would not be present any longer. Those forms only have their existence in rasa with Krsna.

So if these were to be done away with what would be the nature of the soul but a pencil point of consciousness. That is the Brahman effulgence.

So if the soul fell from Vaikuntha he would by necessity pass through the "formless" Brahman and then tatastha "region" on his way to the material worlds.

Please remember this is not me saying that this is the absolute truth. I am only bring out questions and thoughts for philosophical speculation. All through this we can the illusory influence of time in how I said what I said. I know this. This is my limit on this one. The final understanding needs to be yet realized in a way beyond my present words and thoughts. I have NO desire and will not debate this subject with anyone.

I do however hope people will take the time to express their thoughts on this subject whatever those thoughts may be.

I am not very experieced having been there only one time. I did however learn that it is not always safe to use ATM's there. There is a bank and post office at Krsna Balarama mandhir and I would feel much safer dealing with them.

Also take a money belt and use it without fail.