theist

Well, considering that actions speak louder than words, we could also conclude that one would therefore be prohibited from any public act of raga-bhakti, which would put a sever strain on the execution of many acts of devotion.

 

"Those who say they have raga-bhakti" could as well include anyone who manifests any public display of affection or attraction to the Lord.

 

To strip devotees of any and all acts and forms of spontaneous service and attraction seems to reduce the devotee down to a non-feeling, non-caring, non-loving robot.

 

Why should Saraswata devotees be herded into the corral of vaidhi-bhakti and deprived of spontaneous feelings?

It appears to me that you are reading WAYtoo much into a few words said in conversation. Do you know the context of that conversation?

The thought that BR Sridhara Maharaja wants to deprive everyone from feelings of spontaneous love for Krsna is absurd. It is obvious too me he was talking about people who spend time and effort on promoting themselves as spontaneous loving servants of Krsna. One who is promoting himself in such a way is clearly not in any spontaneous mood and is a fraud.

"Srila Sridhar Majaraja said, "Those who say they have raga-bhakti, we hate them". He didn't say, "Those who have raga-bhakti, we hate them". "

I believe this is why everyone should find their own level and work from there. Fortunately Beggar set it straight before a firestorm insued.

Yes gHari. As if we can take a few sentences spoken to his disciples for their development and from that suppose we know the fullness of the inner mind of such a saint.

And even as try to find some way to separate them they are no doubt both fixed in their own spontaneous loving devotion and play with Sri Krsna. Whatever their rasa I don't know, but it is not difficult to envision them together playing with Krsna.

"Customary, social or ecclesiatical conventions" is a modern expression that expands on the concept of "vyavaharika." Vyavaharika means "functional, utilitarian, or conventional."

 

The way that life works, since we are almost constantly evolving, vyavaharika and paramarthika are in constant interplay. What at one moment may be a moral imperative to some absolute value (paramarthika) may later become an unquestioned dogma and hence vyavaharika.

 

When faced with existential challenges that pierce through the carapace of our complacency, we may well be obliged to abandon functional or conventional, unquestioned beliefs, in order to adjust to newly revealed absolute values. Hence the permission, or even requirement, for many gurus.

 

Evolution is a challenge. Sarva-dharma parityajya is a warning: "Be careful of convention."

"The way that life works, since we are almost constantly evolving, vyavaharika and paramarthika are in constant interplay. What at one moment may be a moral imperative to some absolute value (paramarthika) may later become an unquestioned dogma and hence vyavaharika."

Guest, may I ask you to expand on this a little. I get an idea of the sanskrit terms but what would be a real world example of this interplay?

Thanks

Trying to understand this concept of simultaneous oneness and difference that you are speaking of. I don't completely understand how a jiva guru can be completely one with the Lord if the max a jiva can have is 78% of qualities of God. Not saying it is impossible just my brain isn't comprehending it all. Sorry that I offended you. He is partially one with the Lord and simulatneously different or by carrying out perfectly the orders of the Lord he becomes exactly the same as the Lord but still different? I understand how the Lord is simultaneously one and different than the jivas but how the jivas can ever be fully one with the Lord escapes my comprehension. Its like a drop in the ocean becoming the whole ocean.

I never said completely one as in with no distinction. The philosophy is oneness and simulataneous distinction.

I am not nor was I offended, just confused as to how your question related to my quote.

It is natural that it escapes your comprehension, as it does mind. Basically it is said to acintya. Our minds can't house this contradiction without Krsna's grace. So in no way can I explain it to anyone beyond reminding that it is the conclusion of this line of vaisnavas. Neither pure dualists of monists. So this topic of guru being a separate individual or Krsna Himself can't be understood without factoring bedhabheda-tattva. In this way we can see how guru is both separate from Krsna and Krsna.

This guy is too irrational to have a conversation with.

Believe what you like. Yeah, you are right, Krsna is cruel and mean and he gets fun picking on people. So you may as well just rot in the material world forever.

Next time you go somewhere for a conversation don't forget your ears.

a living spiritual master may not be required, but why would you not want one?

 

some reasons:

 

- you dont want to take chances

- you dont want to take actual instructions that affect your life

- you dont think the choices represent qualified gurus

Kulapavanna,

I agree with those but those are some of the very reasons that even formally initiated disciples use to avoid accepting guru in the real internal sense. Do you think that every person sitting at the guru's earthly feet and listening to his lecture is automatically his disciple even if they have been formally initiated? That seems rather superfical. Maybe out of a group of one hundred there may be one or two real disciples.

Prabhupada's books, lectures and letters are filled with practical ways to mold Krsna consciousness into your life. Plus there are so many souls who are more advanced that we can approach for advice.

The basic instructions are very straightforward if one is sincere in wanting to follow them.

Chant Hare Krsna. Then regulate your life by following the 4 regs. (as best you can) while chanting Hare Krsna. Then try to rise early and chant etc. Add something more into your life when you can and always keep chanting. Always try to hear from someone more advanced and experienced and that inspires you.

You don't need a guru to tell you to get up in the morning and brush your teeth and shower. Any TP or TC can do that or even mommy for some.

A transparent via medium between man and Krsna is not necessary for ordinary mundane things but is indispensible when wanting to learn the truth of loving Krsna.

As far as the obnoxious term 'living spiritual master' goes it really is a misnomer. If someone is finding Srila Prabhupada's LIVING PRESENCE in his books then how can someone say he has no "living spiritual master". I find the term offensive because it implies the existence of a dead spiritual master.

What would be a good replacement for that dead term? Embodied SP. "In vapu form" perhaps. Something.

I just want to live a nice quiet life on my residence with very little chaos and when it comes my time to die I want to remember God and go home to Godhead. Not much into trying to convert people to any kind of religion as it is a frustrating exersize for me.

I feel the same way. In regards to this idea I figure it's a good idea to help promote God consciousness (not religion) to others. Afterall other souls are just as much a part of Krsna as I am. The same Krsna who dwells in my heart dwells in theirs. However much He loves me and desires my welfare He also loves them and desires their welfare. So if by seeking Him within myself I can please Him in some small way by seeking Him in the hearts of others and trying to help that jiva spiritually I can also please Him then it makes sense for me to do so.

I also find it impossible to remember Krsna apart from taking part in some effort to help others remember Him. It just doesn't stick with me.

The internet is great in that I can maintain my urban hermit type lifestyle and still try to place God conscious thoughts in many different spheres. Not to convert anyone to a religion but hopefully to place a thought seed that may help remind someone of the Lord.

When can have both worlds this way prabhu.

Why bother placing my quote there and then not dealing with it?

and I continue to say that the jiva is not guru.

 

the jiva might become a medium for the guru to speak through or work through, but the guru is Krishna.

 

it's the inspired side of the jiva, the ability to be a medium for Krishna that is guru.

 

then again that means that Krishna is guru and the jiva is simply a medium.

IMO opinion here is one point you seem to be consistently missing.

"the jiva might become a medium for the guru to speak through or work through, but the guru is Krishna."

Yes the guru is Krsna. But when the jiva is at the level of being a transparent medium for Krsna he does not lose his own individuality. So that jiva is guru. As yes guru is Krsna. Oneness and difference.

Lord Caitanya's devotees who continue to think like this are left in awkward position of vasulating between monist and dualist positions and thus constantly contradicte themselves depending on which side they want to emphasize at the moment, the oneness or duality.

Whay do Mahaprabhu's devotees continue this way? IT IS SIMULATANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE.

Not necessarily.

The guru just doesn't walk up to a person and say "HELLO, I am your guru".

 

Jiva Goswami says that one must try to find a genuine guru and ignore ecclesiastical, customary and social conventions.

 

So, first of all one must educate himself on what to look for in a real guru and then one must try to find such a guru.

 

A guru is not going to just walk up and tap you on the shoulders and say hi.

 

If you want a real guru, then you must know what a real guru is and have some idea of where and how to find him.

If you think your powers of deduction are that finely tuned then have at it. But how will you ever really be sure your guru is not harboring some secret desire or habit? You will have doubts until until Krsna confirms him within your heart. "By the grace of Krsna one gets guru..." Why is that so hard to accept? Not by your minds grace or the GBC's grace or even the previous acarya's grace. "...by the grace of guru one gets Krsna". Guru gives us Krsna not guru.

This is not a prescription to turn your brain off and wait for guru to fall out of the sky. We apply ourselves as best we can and depend on Krsna for the successful result.

"Jiva Goswami says that one must try to find a genuine guru and ignore ecclesiastical, customary and social conventions."

So here Jiva Gosvami tells us what to ignore. But what does that leave us with? Depending on Krsna's grace that is what.

Even if you find someone who is following all the rules and regulations perfectly still he may not love Krsna. Krsna however knows who loves Him and who is just a very disciplined person.

Krsna is directing the wandering of every living being in the material worlds. Are we to say that the only one He will not direct is the sincere soul seeking His pure devotees association? Does that make sense?

We need to accept our helpless positions. You cannot study sastra without krsna's grace. Even an ordinary mundane person needs light to read by. Krsna supplies the light. Everyone is dependent on Krsna's grace at all stages of life including revealing the guru.

Doesnt make sense at all,how can we enjoy our present lives if the GOD hasnt taken away the fruits of Karma,its like say u beat someone up and that someone was kind enough to make u forget that u beat that person up but wouldnt let it go and come up and beat u up when u least expect it and make u miserable.

If GOD was kind enough to make us forget of the past y not kind enough to wipe up the bad deeds?Truth is there is no answer for this good question,its a great question but answers r very vague and cooked up,did god tell u he was merciful to not remind of u the past deeds but still will punish u for it?

Which is better to let go of punishment or to make u forget it?Which is more merciful?Dont just cook up theories unless its told by god himself,which verse can u quote for this?

I agree with the quote you posted above. Krsna let's us go our own way if we so desire knowing that we will learn from our mistake and desire to come back to him. He has designed the material experience to teach us by our mistakes. As fools the best we can do is learn by our mistakes.

Somehow we made a wrong turn and came to wrong side of the river Viraja. This side of that river is the land of birth death old age and disease. And now we have become lost in this jungle.

God will cleanse us of our sinful natures by the power of His Holy name. He has hundreds and millions of such names. Whatever name that indicates the Supreme Person and attracts you please chant that name and pray for mercy

Don't search for reasons why God cannot save you. Look instead for the salvation.

Kanistha means one who cannot tell a demon from a devotee. Therefore, this question is no good, because if I were to list some here, they could be demons aqs far as a kanisthas understanding goes.

 

In order to find a pure devotee, this is Krsnas prerogative to lead you to such. Shastra notes that guru tattwa is invoked by the sincerity of the seeker. Krsna is omnescient, and knows the heart of the individual. One who is a pretender gets a guru who is a cheater pretender as well, but one who is actually desiring association of Pure devotees will have them come to you. Srimad Bhagavatam, in reference to the appearance (on the scene) of Sukadeva Goswami, notes that the pure devotee is "INSPIRED" to appear before the sincere soul (like Pariksit Maharaja). Thias is the descending process. To claim another a pure devotee, and tell others to ascend to the ladder of such association is not the process of gaudiya vaisnavism.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Don't add to this statement or subtract from it. It is all contained above.

Lord Balarama/Lord Nityananda is the supreme personality of servitor Godhead and yet he is Vishnu-tattva, so making a distinction here does not really change the concept any.

The referrence was not in regard to Lord Nityananda. However since I can't remeber where it was found I certainly don't expect you to just accept it from me.

Just deal the basic truth of acintya bhedabheda tattva.

The Guru is simultaneously God and not God? I havent' heard that before. Can you elaborate more please or provide reference?

 

Thanks.

I can't find the exact spot where Srila Prabhupada used the term "Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead." Others may know.

The simultaneous oneness and difference between the Lord and all other living beings is a bascic tenet of Sri Caitanya's teachings. All wii not try to elaborate as others here could do a much better job.

The simplest example I can offer is from words of Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." People cite this as proof that Jesus is God. I accept that.

However later in the same chapter Jesus says, "The Father is Greater than I." Ohers will cite this to prove Jesus is the servitor of the Father. I accept that also.

Both statments although appearing contradictory as true at the same time. This is identical to Lord Caitanya's philosophy.

What's the point of karma if we can't remember our mistakes.

 

that means all these people who sin in this life can go about doing the same thing in the next without any remorse...afterall, you can't remember what was right/wrong.

 

there is no free will if don't have the freedom to learn from our mistakes.

What is presently held as memory and is accessible to our conscious mind is not even 1% of our real memory. Memory in this regard is not just a collection of facts from many many past lives. These memories in the form of deep impressions on the mind are what has formed our present living situations, mental patterns, fears and hopes and aspirations. We learn by being able to read this impressions and grow beyond them.

Beyond this the soul comes to understand that the whole material experience has been one bad trip, the details are no longer of any interest because we see it was all just a bad dream we mistook for reality and that the awakened Krsna consciousness platform of conscious experience is the only one worth thinking about.

Intellectually sifting through each individual material experience and evaluating each segment individually would be a collassal waste of time and practically speaking an impossiblity because from the intellectual platform only one would continue to implicate themselves in the material duality thus adding to what they needed to evaluate.

The truly intelligent will simply evaluate the whole material experience as a waste and then cultivate Krsna consciousness to replace that material experience with spiritual love for God.

Like Maharaja Yudhistira who never looked back once he desired to renounce the world of matter. He just did it.

The Supreme Personality of Godhead.

The Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead.

One and different simultaneously remember, not either or.

We have all been there many many times before. "For one who is born death is certain and for one who has died birth is certain."

I have no desire to convince you of anything. Believe what you like. I also have no desire to continue any conversation with you. I was speaking to someone else and you burst in telling me to shut my mouth. You lack common human manners so it is no surprise you also lack any measure of advanced knowledge as to transmigration.

prove it,prove it,prove it,did u c people being judged after they r dead,did u hear them tell u what happened to them after they r dead,if not just keep ur mouth shut and wait till u die..no one knows for sure what happens after death.just because it makes sense to think there is judgement for ur actions doesnt mean it exists..dont talk like uve been there and seen it....just because u belive in it doesnt mean it exist,same way like how u say it applies for aethist too,this applies to theist too..without proof nothing needs to be assumed

You are a funny guy. The problem with waiting for my death before I can open my mouth is that I will never die and I like to talk. not possible. Better you close you ears to anything I have to say.

:D

That's quite a loaded statement, and quite misleading. You have obviously turned a blind eye to the mean-spirited, strong-armed tactics utilized by Iskcon for the past 11 or 12 years in this connection. The Sadhu you refer to has no desire whatsoever to be any type of "successor acarya" to Ikscon. He is 85 years old, and simply wishes to travel, preach, and translate books, despite apparent health issues. Yes, you may be able to find a couple of out-of-context quotes wherein he said that he is "the successor." However, he is merely making a point, that despite Iskcon's rather vicious propaganda, he is indeed in line with Srila Prabhupada and that he does have an intimate connection with him, and that Srila Prabhupada would not approve of Iskcon's strong-armed tactics to attempt to demonize him and discourage devotees from seeing him. That's all.

 

If you're not interested in his sanga, that's fine. Really, it is. All I ask is that it would be nice if you could avoid using offensive adjectives such as "foolish" in your depiction of this Saint. That is offensive. It serves no productive purpose. Please be respectful and Vaishnava-like in your dealings. Surely you can disagree without being disrepectful. How 'bout some harmony amongst the Vaishnavas! Can I see some love?! Oh, wouldn't that be nice.

Guest of post #46.

You protest too much. What everyone Narayana Maharaja may think or say his disciples have been pushing the idea ad nausem for years that without his personal siksa in their lives Prabhupada's disciples cannot really hear Srila Prabhupada. Of course it is a farsical and nonsensicle idea but nontheless the fact. This is what inspires the negative comments that come in return. His disciples are the main cause of this negative banter directed towards him. Which really makes their motive in continuing with it extremely suspect.

Are they only dreams or also act in our karma?

 

 

Hare Krishna

Chant and Be Happy:pray:

They are only dreams and they act in our karma. Our karmic life "apart" from Krsna is one long dream (nightmare).

Dreams are the results of various sanskaras or impressions that we have picked up through past live experiences and it is from this pool of impressions that various dream segments arise most often in disjointed form. Like dreaming of a golden mountain . We have never seen a golden mountain but we have experience of gold and mountains. In the night dream these may combine as a golden mountain.

It is also from this mind pool that we draw our inclinations and material desires which motivate our actions or karmas. Actions bring reactions which cause more actions and they all leave impressions on the mind subtley ever changing it's form and this is the wheel that we must escape from.

Of course the Lord and/or His devotees may appear to you in a dream. If they do then that is reality entering into our dreams to inspire us in some way. But then the Lord or His devotee entering into our waking life is the same thing really. Reality entering into our dream.

It is as if a totally awakened soul took a form that allowed him to appear in your dream at night and interact with you. We are dreaming so we take the setting of the dream itself to be real. The awakened soul knows you think like that so he plays along but at the same time directs you in so many ways to focus on Krsna and thus become awake to reality in the midst of your dream.

It is like a lucid dreamer teaching ordinary dreamers to wake up from inside their own dreams. This strikes me as "very very far-out ..man".

Krsna consciousness is the perfection of lucid dreaming.

Jiv Jago! Jiv Jago!

---------

From lecture on Sb 1.1.4

"So Vedic culture is very old. It is not a concocted thing or a new pattern. It is eternal. Therefore it is called sanatana. Sanatana means eternal. It has no beginning, no end. Sanatana. So Vedic culture means sanatana, eternal. Krishna is eternal. We living entities, we are eternal. And our relationship and exchange of loving service with Krishna is also eternal. Krishna is eternal, we are eternal, and our dealings with Krishna is also eternal. But sometimes it becomes interrupted by the maya, which is called svapna. Svapna means dreamlike. As dream has no fact, it is all hallucination, similarly our detachment from Krishna is also a hallucination. Actually, there is no detachment. And when we are covered by this hallucination... Just like in dream we cry, "Oh, here is a tiger! Here is a tiger!" Tiger. Where is tiger? Similarly, this forgetfulness of Krishna is like that. So if we simply follow the rules and regulations given by the great acaryas, then immediately we can revive our Krishna consciousness. It doesn't take even second. The method...(?) Just like you are dreaming, crying, "There is tiger, tiger." And if somebody pushes you, "Why you are doing that?" And if you immediately become awake "Oh! All tiger finished." (laughter) "All tiger finished." So one has to give the push that "There is no tiger." Then immediately the whole hallucination will go.

So this pushing method is given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally, Krishna personally. Jiv jago jiv jago gauracanda bole. Gauracandra, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, is asking everyone, "Wake up!" The same dreaming. "Wake up."

then you have missed their point prabhu.

 

They say that there is ONLY one sadhu left on the planet and if you don't surrender to the rightful heir to ISKCON then you cannot get any good association.

 

they have been saying this for years.

 

There is only ONE sadhu on Earth.

 

You must surrender to him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I meant I have never heard anyone who accepts the LIVING PRESENCE of Srila Prabhupada in his instructions say there is no need for good association. Souls are free to determine for themselves where to find what they consider to be good association. Agree or disagree that is everyone's God-given right and needs to be respected.

It's okay I have some Ganga jal at home. Now and again i drink from the bottle, and sometimes I even put some on my head, I guess I read somewhere Lord Shiva does this, I'm only imitating Him.

Whew...that was close.

Golden cobra going up a tree. Black cobra coiled hood raised before the altar. I would be too much a sissy to deal with that on a daily basis.

Like Beggar said: "Just more evidence of the need for good association" rather than this "all we need are his books" nonsense that is becoming quite the trend here lately.

I have heard this complaint before and am always mystified by it. I have never heard anyone claim that good association was to be avoided and one should just read books.

Perhaps an example can be given.