theist

Yes, it would be interesting to hear direct quotes from the Gurus on this. If they clearly said that we remain as individual jivas after liberation, then it's strange that the Sikhs today do not seem to interpret this from their writings.

 

Can you imagine 500 yrs from now someone reading a book from Srila Prabhupada or another Vaishnava Acharya, and getting the impression that they taught Merging with God, and that the soul loses its individual identity. It's unthinkable that one could get that impression from their writings.

Not so unimaginable really. I have scores of conversations with new age moonbeamers where they refuse to hear what is being clearly said. It is like they have an internal mistranslator on in their head that turns everything they hear into "it's a one." Or many so-called christians who insist Jesus Christ is God contrary to Jesus's own words and life example.

But I hear your point, Srila Prabhupada so thoughoughly emphasised the point that no serious student of his could ever think otherwise. Other teachers may not have done this however.

I do not know Guru Nanak's exact teachings on Moksha. But Sikhs have the impression that he taught moksha = Merging with the formless Absolute, and losing individual identity.

 

Also, the Sikh religion is based on the teachings of 10 Gurus: Guru Nanak, Guru Angad, Guru Amardas, Guru Ram Das, Guru Arjun, Guru Har Govind, Guru Har Rai, Guru Har Krishnan, Guru Tegh Bahadur and Govind Singh.. not just Guru Nanak.

But to be in Guru nanak's line they must have taught the same thing even if they expanded the the teachings. They are the real Sikhs. So perhaps someone has some quote from the source they can share.

Great I am very curious.

I will answer the same question with I am interested in becoming devoted to awakening God conscious within myself but I have no interest in any particular religion. For me that is simply the truth. That is no compromise on my part and if the conversation progresses then I can speak more and more.

My purpose anyway would be to direct that soul to the Lord in their heart. To impress upon them the immediate access they have available to the presence of the Lord within themselves.

Since I am western by conditioning I speak plain english to people and avoid mixing in sanskrit terminology. Instead of Paramatma or caitya-guru I would refer to the Lord who is present in everyone's heart. I would mention the chanting of the Lord's names as the best way to approach Him along with prayer. And that any name for the Supreme Lord that someone has for God is just fine.

Once a sense of broadness is established I will tell them that the Hare Krsna mantra is most attractive to me and that find Srila Prabhupada's books contain the most knowledge about our Lord that I have ever found.

I never try to explain how "God has a girlfriend "etc.

Different strokes for different folks I guess "aspiring vaisnava" is fine IMO. But then please explain what vaisnava means or they will be left with the impression that you are on some "hindu" path and they will think in sectarian terms.

Sikhs seek to MERGE with God. They do not believe in Vaikuntha or that we stay as individual souls after moksha.

 

I asked about this on one of their forums. Here is the thread:

 

sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=19797

"Sikhs" can say anything. But I am interested in what Guru Nanak taught. Those that adhere to his teachings are in his line and not others. I can easily understand how Advaita's influence could be accepted by many sikhs though if they teach that God is ultimately formless. That is a hard position to maintain.

Yes the essential thing is to really do it internally. Jesus never called himself a christian for example. Even his immediate followers didn't. The term christian was given to them at Antioch by the people Paul was preaching to. He was preaching the message of Christ and therefor they called him a christian.

The problem is if we overly identify with such labels as 'Christian' or 'vaisnava' then we may start to think that just by such identification we have in fact become a 'Christian ' or 'Vaisnava' and not recognize the need for inner transformation

Cool Avinash. Do you have a snap of it? I would love to see it. I have absolutely no knowledge of such things but to have a flower blossom on the palm sounds so very auspicious.

Picture please?

suchandra what does that have to do with the yakshas being a Himalayan tribe like the Tibetans?

My feeling is that the "another kalpa" thing is just an excuse. I view the Bhagavatam as the revelation of perfect and flawless knowledge. That perfect knowledge does not include the cosmology of this temporary world IMO. I really don't care if the Bhagavatam says the universe is six billion miles across or whatever the number was and that has been proven to be woefully small compared to the actual facts.

Good story and not surprising. Did they corner you out on the street while you were in devotee clothes? I remember being semi-attacked by Jesus Freaks about mid-70's but I was in regular attire...all they did was tell me that if I crossed the street without getting saved right then and there I would get run over by a car and go straight to hell.

"Go straight to hell. Don't pass go. Don't collect $200."

No I had blooped and happened upon a Christian coffee house which was set up to attract young people. I heard singing of praises to Jesus and as it was open to the public I wandered in. We had an interesting conversation which was all about how I was wrong in suggesting that God's arrangement was that everyone would eventually become conscious of Him and thus "be saved." I also said reincarnation was the mechanism. That really set them off. One guy who thought he knew all about that "hindu stuff" then said something about how we Hare Krsna's chanted in sanskrit and how I very well could be sent by the "Enemy" (we all know who that is) to infiltrate their group by chanting sanskrit and pretending I was speaking in tongues during prayer. It was shortly after that that they got the idea of doing an excorcism to free me free the reincarnation demon that possed me. I am laughing as I remember this... it was so damn strange.

There was this one group of Christians that started coming down to where we chanted everyday with big signs which they held up in front of the kirtana party to block the innocent public from seeing us. We would then circumambulate them and dance and sing as we made circles around them. LOL ...Oh such fun days!!! they would then leave right away. They came three days in a row. Our strategy was to "bliss them out." No arguments, no bad vibes just kirtana joyfully performed. We felt Jesus was satisfied with us.

As the Bible says "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal." Bliss wins everytime.

Who we really are, our deepest essence, is full of knowledge never-ending, exuberant and energetic vitality eternal, and full of unstoppable happiness and bliss. I mean if that is not child-like then I don't know what is.

Yes. We must become as little children to enter the kingdom of God.- Teachings of Jesus Christ

Well then please clear up Kulapavana's doubt by supplying the answer to his questions. "Just believe brothers" is not enough.

"I would also like to thank anyone who feels motivated to be concerned about children's welfare,..."

Everyone should care especially devotees. Afterall Prabhupada brought Lord Caitanya's movement to engage the entire world. Now does it make sense for us to ignore the very souls that are placed in the wombs of devotee mothers by Krsna. Not only does it not make sense it is highly offensive. With kids or without makes no difference. That soul that has taken birth is just as much my brother or sister as he is to his birth parents. Of course the relationship is set up differently for practical reasons in this world but ultimately there is only one family. Headed by Krsna, centered on Krsna and expanded without limit.

Not to have some concern over devotee children is to show no genuine connection with Krsna IMO.

I may have an extra soft spot for this issue due to sentiment. My childhood was rather hellish with my parents giving no love, no concern of my education and even denying me food. So I supposed on some level I want to heal my inner child (O god ,I am embarassed to use that term) by seeing other kids well treated and happy.

"Hope this helped. Hare Krishna!"

Sure did. That is the kind of practical specifics that we need. You are very experienced & knowledgable on this subject. I hope the original poster from the first thread is seeing this and taking notes. Hope others notice it as well.

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So the kids went to public schools, in a very rural, poor school district.

 

E-school sounds good, but who will keep an eye on the kids on your end? You always need supervision. As a community we are trying to reconstitute a local gurukula. I hope we can do it, but it is not easy at all.

I would pick a rural poor school anyday over these hellholes in the major cities.

Krsna will provide a local gurukula. If we have the will He provides the way.

The way I am picturing it is maybe 3 or 4 familes who are friends can pool their resources. Kids could study together sometimes or often and the responsibility for that shared.

The North Dakota School of Independent Study is a fully accredited distance

learning [online] institution in the United States offering instruction from Grades 4 - 12.

 

Students may submit work by mail, fax, email, or online.

 

If you google "North Dakota School of Independent Study" you can find their

website and what others think about it. Their e address is world wide web

period ndisonline period org.

 

Thank you for asking this very intelligent question.

Thanks for the info. Parents or potentials please take note.

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In Florida there is an accedited online school that is state sponsored.

 

The state knows the ecomomy of saving tax dollars with a e-school system.

 

My older kids tried it, but they couldn't get enough classes and it would have taken them too long to complete their High School diploma.

 

That was a few years ago. Maybe it has improved since then.

 

I think the idea of the e-school will become a big idea in the years to come.

 

It's better than home schooling in some ways, because the state is still offering the curriculum and it is free as best I can remember.

 

I don't know how many states are doing it, but I am sure Florida is not the only state to offer an online educational system.

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This post from the other thread struck me as maybe the best of alternatives. It seems very doable and the system may be moving in this direction anyway. No one, or govt. is going to set it up for us, nor should we expect that.

An e-system of education would remove the unwanted socialization that comes with the public school system environment and yet prepare kids for living within this society.

Although one person posted asking for advice I am sure this dilemna comes up for all devotee parents who afterall have to deal with this as a practical and often pressing real life event and not just an intellectual excercise.

Any positive ideas would be welcome.

Where I am, the evangelical Christians have the overwhelming numerical advantage...bring up alternative spiritual topics at your own risk!

So no need to risk anything. Just show them bhakti in Christ's teachings and life example. Instead of praying for a nice wife and kids they should pray for love and devotion.

The message is unmotivated devotional love for the Lord and not religious affiliation.

Say the wrong thing to some(most) of them and they'll get set off into a tirade about the devil and god knows what else.

I had several of them back in the 70's want to do an excorcism on me and cast out the reincarnation demon that had possessed me. I prayed to Jesus to save me and he kindly did. I am serious. There were six or seven of them and they were starting to circle me. Jesus got me through an opening in the group. Then I remembered His teaching about not giving pearls to swine for they will just trample you under their feet.

Nice. Thanks for that. That then is our example on how to appreciate the Sikhs.

All obeisances to Guru Nanak and those in his line.

 

if sumone ask me what i am, i tell the im a simple mystic, drawn to the vaisnava school of thaught.. but many times i just say im a believer in God and nothing more.. is it importent to call 1 self vaisnava for example?

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Doesn't vaisnava just refer to a servant and worshiper of Vishnu the One Supreme God? We have to become attached to the meaning behind the word vaisnava and not the sanskrit word itself.

Besides I feel the same way. I never call myself a vaisnava. Why should I claim to be on such an exalted platform while I am still so stuck in maya. I am also just a believer in God and find the vaisnavas the best source of information about God.

Tolerance yeah, but not acquiessence. I also am fed up with people who refuse to talk about God all the time so I avoid contact with them for any length of time. I like to think and talk about God so i should search out others of a like mind and respectfully avoid the rest. Failing that it's best to be alone in this world.

im sorry u find me and my pic creepy

but i like it, i named this pic when i took it "the mystic" and worked alot with it.. i work with grapghics and such things.. i thaught also that i whanted a personal avatar of me

Hey I don't find you creepy in the least Govinda das. Just the opposite. I see you as much more 'light' than you avatar conveys to me. But it's just subjective.

I have a similar alter ego picture of myself which i have a poster of. It is a classic Japanese flute player walking in a certain etheral setting of reeds that can easily be seen as him walking in clouds.

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First a clarification. I was not very precise in the previous post. Guru Granth Sahib (the holy book of Sikhs) was not compiled by Guru Govind Singh alone. It was started by the fifth guru. Later on the teachings of other gurus were incorporated into it. Guru Govind Singh instructed Sikhs to treat this book as Guru after him i.e. no more human guru.

Together with the teachings of the gurus of Sikhism, the holy book also contains teachings of the teachers of Hinduism and Islam. One of these teachers is Kabir Das.

 

 

 

By personalists, if you mean those who believe that Supreme has form, then Sikhs are not really personalists. They believe that can can manifest in various forms, but ultimately He is formless. This is one area where they differ significantly from Vaishnavas.

But there are many similarities with Vaishnavas. They believe in holy name, the remembrance of God always, love and devotion for God.

Another similarity is the belief in reincarnation and karma. They believe, just like Hindus, that one's next birth depends upon one's accumulated karma. If somebody is pure, then he will not take birth any more.

Many members in this forum have written on number of occasions that God is not accessible only through intellect, or scholarship or cleverness at argument; He is attained through devotion. This is exactly what Sikhs also believe in.

I have had the feeling for a long time that others who actually perceive of God as a Supreme Being may also consider Him to be formless. Islam itself sounds like that to me. I believe this comes from a lack of information in their teachings. Still they are not in the camp of the Sankarites. Of course the Vaisnava's teach us that the Lord is formless as well as possessing His own transcendental eternal form. So we can't say they are wrong but just in need of further information.

I definetly see them as allies in God consciousness.

This makes me appreciate that much more how rare this Krsna conscious movement is.

Avinash,

I believe the Sikhs are personalists and place great emphasis on the Holy Name. Is this true?

I know little about Sikhism but from my limited interaction with them I have come to like them.

Good question Govinda das.

ps I sure liked your old Avatar. This one is a bit creepy.

Please Admin., let's limit the right of posting as guest anynomously to maybe the first three or so posts. The examples on this thread is just another reason why this should be done.

[moderator's note: We will close the thread for now. A few inflamatory posts or statements, from both points of view, have been removed. We will look into the possibility of making individual threads "registered users only" , even if the thread has already been started.]

An article that may be helpful.

A new school of thought

St. Petersburg Times, July 18, 1999

By Paul Wilborn

ALACHUA -- The principal is a 50-year-old Ph.D. The teacher has 30 years of experience in the classroom. The lines carved around the eyes and mouths of the five school administrators are silent signatures of years spent in business and the professions.

Most mornings they gather, just after sunrise, in flowing robes of fine cotton and silk, to bang finger cymbals, beat drums and chant their devotion to Krishna.

"Hare Krishna. Hare Rama. Hare Krishna. Hare Rama. Krishna Krishna. Rama Rama. Hare Hare. Hare Hare."

Welcome to New Ramana Reti, 127 acres of rolling hills and ancient oaks, 15 miles north of Gainesville, home to America's first Hare Krishna-run charter school.

The Alachua County School Board narrowly approved the Krishnas' application this month, after initially rejecting the proposal amid considerable controversy in March.

When charter school legislation passed the Florida Legislature three years ago, conservatives predicted it would sprout innovative schools and teaching techniques. Who knew one of the blossoms would be a lotus?

"I didn't expect it," said Cathy Wooley-Brown, who directs the Florida Charter School Resource Center at the University of South Florida. "We've had other religious-based groups, but when I heard this I was surprised."

Wooley-Brown had talked with the organizers as they prepared their application but didn't realize they were Krishnas. She was impressed instead by their knowledge and determination.

"It was a very strong application," she said.

And popular. Ninety-four students have signed up for the new charter school that opens in September. About 75 percent are from the Krishna community. Eventually, though, the Krishnas think their school will appeal to a broad range of parents in this hilly, oak-choked town of 6,000 where the Bible belt is easing out a few notches to make room for a fanny pack full of new age devotees.

Jimmy Swick II has watched it happen.

Born 46 years ago into an Alachua community of farmers and God-fearing country people, Swick now sells real estate in 5-acre chunks to herb-swallowing vegetarians, to middle-aged ex-hippies with baby seats in their Jeep Cherokees, and to Hare Krishnas with shaved heads and disposable incomes.

"The times they are a' changing -- who sang that?" Swick says.

On Main Street, pushed up next to The Deer Stand ("Guns, Pawn, Archery, Ammo") is the Harvest Thyme Cafe, home to Gardenburgers, the Veggielicious tortilla wrap and Mother Nature's Best fruit plate. Out on 441, set amid the signs for Clyde's Tire & Brake, Sudzee Duds launderette, and Countryside TV & Appliance, is one for Alachua Acupuncture and Massage.

Swick and his family spend Sunday mornings at the United Methodist Church, but some of his neighbors meet their maker at the Hare Krishna Temple, at the Temple of the Universe (built by software millionaire Mickey Singer), or in front of Buddhist altars.

At Angel Gardens, a store selling cast concrete angel-wing lawn chairs, health food and herbs, Chris McKee said northern Alachua County is full of people like her -- mid-40s hippies who want to raise their kids in a rural setting.

"There's a karma up here. What else can I say?" she says.

That karma, and the proximity of Gainesville and the University of Florida, also attracted the Hare Krishnas. There has been an active temple in Gainesville since the early 1970s, and in 1977, the group bought the farm on County Road 235 near Alachua.

Since the early 1990s, the farm has attracted Hare Krishnas, known as devotees, from all over the world, who see it as a haven for families and children.

Every morning more than 100 devotees gather barefooted on the black-and-white marble floors to chant to a diety-laden altar. Special occasions draw more than a thousand faithful to the hilltop temple, built of sand-colored block and surrounded by cast clay beams carved to resemble pillars outside an Indian temple.

Jaya Hari came to the farm from Tampa in 1981 and stayed. Today, she's married to a devotee and they have children of their own. After chanting at the 7:20 a.m. gathering, she sits by a three-tiered fountain in a plum-colored sari, a streak of chalky yellow clay running from her forehead down the bridge of her nose, splitting around the jewel set between her eyes.

She doesn't see herself as outside or on the fringes of anything here in Alachua.

"Just what is normal nowadays?" she wonders.

Krishnas like Seth Spellman, a lawyer who joined the movement in 1973, wince at the image of Hare Krishnas as a radical cult whose devotees were famous for pestering travelers in airports. Those images still lead some outsiders to contend the Krishnas remain a dangerous group.

Spellman says the stereotypes were the work of a few zealots. Spellman is an organizer of the Alachua Learning Center -- the Krishnas' charter school -- and he thinks it reflects the new image of the Krishna movement.

"This is a maturing of the Krishna consciousness movement," says Spellman, as the morning chanting goes on in the temple nearby. "We're growing up. We want different things for our children."

To Alachua School Board member Judy Brashear, though, the Krishna charter school is a con game being run on the school system and the state by a cagey group of religious hustlers.

Brashear, who calls the Krishna farm a commune and twice voted against granting the charter, says she thinks the Krishnas want taxpayers to underwrite a new version of the group's existing private school.

"The law says a private school cannot be converted to be a charter," says Brashear. "My opposition is based on the fact that this is a conversion."

Under Florida law, charter schools can be created by private individuals or groups. The state sends the school the same per-student money that would have gone to the local school district. The schools themselves must be free and non-sectarian. Charters can be revoked for mishandling money or violating the state's rules.

The principal will be William Wall, currently a professor at Sante Fe Community College, who says the school will be a hybrid -- offering the value-based education of a religious school and the non-sectarian curriculum of a public school.

"We'll teach values like truthfulness, honesty, attention to duty, respect for all living entities," says Wall, known to fellow Krishnas as Bharatasrestha dasa.

When it opens this fall, Alachua Learning Center will siphon off about half of the 60 students at Vaishnav Academy, the private school that the Krishnas already run.

This year's boys' class at the academy could almost pass for any other school room. The students wear soccer shirts and baggy shorts and jeans. There's a blackboard, a dozen metal and Formica desks crammed with papers and notebooks, a couple of computers, an overhead projector. One wall is decorated with collages the boys made after a field trip to Ginny Springs where they encountered an alligator.

But the names on the collages are Govinda, Braja, Keshava and Subal. These are Hare Krishna children. Unlike their parents, they didn't discover the movement after a life of middle-class comforts and education, they were born into it.

Spellman, one of the board members, says teaching these children well has become a priority for the movement.

Krishna children have done well in public schools -- last year's Sante Fe High School valedictorian was Gaura Allin, a devotee's son. The Krishna children, many from Europe and South America, are stars of local soccer leagues.

But Spellman says Krishnas have struggled when it comes to running private schools for their children.

"We've had some bad reactions from our first attempts," he says. "Some children expressed later that they'd have liked a broader experience."

On the bookshelves at Vaishnav Academy are some attempts at that broader reach. There are textbooks in physical science, algebra and English. Paperback novels by Charles Dickens, Mark Twain, Ray Bradbury and George Orwell. The current conservative touchstone, William Bennett's The Book of Virtues, sits within easy reach.

The boys' teacher, a veteran of public and private school classrooms known only as Sukhada, will move to the Alachua Learning Center.

But Sukhada expects the smaller religious school to thrive. Some parents in the community will still want a religious-based school for their children, especially the younger ones.

The charter school, which will encompass elementary and middle school grades, will avoid religion while mixing reading, writing and arithmetic with practical life skills. There will be small classes with children from different ages taught together.

"We'll teach sewing, cooking, gardening, practical skills, weaving, pottery, along with the standard curriculum," she says. "We want to make education more applicable to their world."

Monitors from the local school district and Wooley-Brown's Charter School Resource Center will keep an eye on the school to see that it doesn't stray from its non-sectarian promises.

Don Lewis oversees charter school operations for the Alachua County school district. He thinks the district and the School Board members will be keeping a close eye on the Krishna school.

"I think the board members are going to be suspect if the Vaishnav Academy closes down," he says.

Even before it was proposed, the mere idea of a state-supported Hare Krishna school was a political flash point in the ongoing debate over school choice initiatives such as charter schools and vouchers.

In the heat of her state Senate race last year, Pinellas Park Rep. Mary Brennan mailed a controversial tract warning that a vote for her Republican opponent, who supported school choice, could lead to Hare Krishnas running their own tax-supported schools.

Brennan lost and was roundly criticized for her attack ad. But her prediction wasn't that far off -- a few hundred miles away, to be exact, where the growing drumbeat for school choice is accompanied by finger cymbals and ancient Indian chants.

[moderator's note: complete article added]

thx mod.'s @ 1st it looked too long but now I see it fits just fine.