theist

Sometimes, you have to mislead them, it's for their own good. Mayavada, for instance, is to mislead asuras, which is why Shiva blessed Manimantha to propogate it as Sanyasin Samkara. There are many such instances, but you get the picture. It's alright to mislead asuras.

Well this *rap never die? After reading Tackle-berry's post I started hearing Guru Kripa saying "Pick the bone and bring it home" over and over in my head. I just hope this curse doesn't last all day.

Most of the socialists I associate with have begun to come to the conclusion that cruelty to animals is an extension of the prinicple of racism.

The best term out there is specism I think, popularized by Peter Singer.

Whilst they are cautious not to equate the violence meted out to humans as being comparable to that of animals they are recognising that as human beings we have a responsiblility not to abuse animals and to act responsibly to maintain their welfare. Lots of socialists are vegetarian for compassionate reasons.

Why such caution? Is the pain and suffering experienced by the soul in an animal form so much less significant than that suffered by a soul in a human form? How about the suffering experienced then of a human to a higher life form from another planet? How would we feel as humans towards those beings who saw their own suffering as more important than our own based on the higher form they are presently inhabitating?

This says to me that these socialists are still speciests. But I applaude their willingness to grow in this area.

In a socialist society there would still be meat eating for sure, (this is kali yuga after all) but there would be an end to the commodification and abuse of animals. They would be allowed to live a life that wouldn't involve an impedement to their welfare. This is actually an important aspect of socialism and has been brought about by engaging in a dialogue with animal rights extremists who fail to understand the root cause of animal abuse within society - capitalism.

Again it's good the socialists are learning and growing. Although I find their need to blame the Capitalist for every ill under the sun to be like the the Muslims at Haj when they have a certain stone the Satan day, or a Christian who believes everytime he gets an erection at the the vision of an alluring woman to be under the attack of the Devil. This type of thinking may be a little helpful at some stage but to progress we need to take more personal responsibility for what we experience as good and evil in our lives and give up our need for external Boogymen.

....Even fruits and vegetables have little in the way of taste due to the unnecessary oil pillaging that the ruling class is so fond of.

There are some who recognize the problem but instead of spending time railing endlessly about the evil ruling class take personal responibility for what they put in the bodies by buying locally grown produce and learning and supporting efforts to return to a sense of universal connectiveness thru the act of growing our own food in our own space as best we can.

Even a poor "powerless" resident born and raised in the heart of Brooklyn does more than these pseudo revolutionaries just by learning how to grow a jar of alfalfa sprouts in a small attempt to move towards self-suffiency.

If we really want to progress in our lives we have to move beyond mastery of a certain social/economic theory and angry rhetoric against the Boogyman.

Comradesoul

Just pray.

"But I've found that many HK's on this board seem to have a rather closed-minded outlook towards the possibility of impersonalism being the highest goal."

Well that is true. But would you not expect that from anyone who themselves have taken a positon on the debate? The impersonalist thinks the personalist is simply a sentimentalist whop needs to personify God in his mind and practice devotion to stay even somewhat connected with the absolute. And don't think members of those camps don't enjoy mocking the personalists also.

I was sitting on the beach in Hrishikesa chanting japa and along came a group of bramacharis from one of the local mayavadi schools. Seeing me and that I was a westerner they approach and one asked, "what is your sadhana?" I told him I had no strict sadhana but that I was developing a little attraction for bhakti-yoga at which point they all snickered and one said mockingly "bhakti-yoga" and started talking in Hindi so I couldn't understand. The rest responded in laughter.

It goes both ways.

yes, i don't deny that - it's just that i always get a negative vibe from many Krsna devotees when it comes to Shakaracarya and Buddha - my point is that we shouldnt look down on these things since they have come from God. It's like looking down on nursary mathematics and laughing at kids because they're trying to figure out 1+1. Buddha (Krsna) had His reasons as did other Avataras to preach the way they did. If that teaching does not appeal or apply to us, then we simply shouldn't comment - we certainly should not throw derogatory statements around. That's my 2 cents anyway.

I agree 100%. I think it is some false bravado or something that makes us try to take enjoyment out of others misfortune. And not just Buddhists and Mayavadis but karmi's also.

A Vaisnava takes no pleasure in the pain or ignorance of others, he is concerned with helping them.

Insecurity also in our position I believe to be at the root of a lot of that.

We offer our respects to Srila Prabhupada for coming to the western world to free us from impersonalism and voidism. So in our efforts to serve his mission we must challenge all the no-self philosphies like Buddhism and materialistic science and the various "I am God" versions of Sakaracarya's teachings. In doing so however we should stick to making superior and persuasive points on why Vaisnavism is best and grow beyond the mocking stage.

From the material side we get a material and limited view of communism which is woefully inadequate. I am thinking of the animals specifically. In materialistic communism the humans see no wrong in slaughtering billions of cows for their flesh and hides and torturing them beyond belief in the process. Animals are seen as mere objects of exploitation rather than as citizens.

Vaisnava communism on the other hand recognizes that the same spiritual spark that animates the human form animates the cow, bird and tree forms and further, that the same Supreme Lord is dwelling in all of them.Therefore they are all worthy and deserving of protection from the state and allowed their proper place within nature and society.

Vaisnava's in relation to material culture and societies are the true revolutionaries.

Viva la revolution comradesouls.

Guest in post 9 said:

"NO CALLS FOR RAPE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Also, someone noted that, " I don't remember any calls for rape in the New

Testament."

This is because during the years of Christ's life that the Bible chooses to ignore, approximately ages 12 - 30, some scholars believe that he went to India, studied yoga and Indian thought and was profoundly influenced by Bharata Varsa and the precepts of Sanatana Dharma.

Some people did not know that, so I have included information about this

book for those who do not realize how much even Judeo-Christian thought

has drastically changed since Jesus' years in India."

To think the reason for Lord Jesus Christ not promoting rape was due to His having traveled to India as a young man shows a remarkable level of ignorance and is precisely the problem with hearing from those that are not , at least theoretically, liberated from identifying with their land of birth as being the only source for any wisdom that exists on the planet.

Just as the Old Testament is filled with the misconceptions and prejudices of some of the Jewish leaders in those times who wrote while thinking "I am Jewish", so do any people, eastern or western, interject and impose their own misconceptions and mistakes onto anything they happen to say or write.

Srila Prabhupada has said that Lord Jesus Christ came straight from the Spiritual Sky. To think that such a person as that would not know that rape was wrong without having to travel to India first is ridiculous.

If it disturbs you, don't read about it. Stick to what makes you happy.

 

i don't think anyone here can tell you for sure Lord Siva's intentions when He incarnated as Shankara. Maybe people needed an alternative following. I do think it is wrong that you should call the predominant belief at the time "Buddhist lies" though - it's kinda hypocritical (no offense) since Buddha is accepted as a bona fide incarnation, thus His teaching served a purpose which is BOUND to have been successful (God does not know failure!!). There is a grand plan on this planet and God is the director - i think it is presumptious of us to deny or judge other's teachings including Buddhism and "Mayavada". They have their place in this world otherwise Buddha and Lord Siva would not have started them in the first place.

 

Re Padma Purana - not a clue, sorry... i though all Puranas had their root in Vyas?

Krsna is the greatest cheat. He can lie and still produce a successful outcome.

Wrong heading above, meant to say for that post, "To what gain?"

I am disturbed by the Mayavada teaching that denies the individuality and preciousness of each jiva-soul.

 

I heard the Padma Purana predicted that the Mayavada teaching would come and spread, and it was taught by Lord Shiva who incarnated as Shankara. He taught this distorted version of Vedantic philosophy to save people from Buddhist lies, for one thing, and return the people of Bharat back to the Vedic religion, even if it was in a distorted form. It was a form of Vedanta that could "convince" those of a Buddhist bent, to turn away from Buddhism. Is this correct? Correct me if I am wrong on anything I said.

 

Who composed the Padma Purana, and where can I read it?

I have heard the same reason given and another one on increasing the population for kali-yuga. Someone that understands that point clearly can elaborate, I cannot.

One thing we know for certain is that the practical result was that Buddhism was pushed out beyond India for the most part and the Vedic religion,with it's acceptance of Brahman as the Absolute, was reestablished by Sankara.

The question I have is, by reestablishing the situation as it was before the advent of Buddha does that not make the incarnation of Lord Buddha an excercise in futility?

By that I mean if the vedic religon that people returned to was the same mix of polytheism, animal sacrifice for sins and an impersonal view of Vedanta then where is the gain? What is the benefit to Vedic religion really short of vaisnava mono-theism?

I believe the position of the illiterate monotheist who is a vegetarian on top of it, to be far far superior to any "vedic" animal sacrificer, polytheist or impersonalist no matter how scholarly and cultured he may be.

But then if we include the appearance of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and see Sankara as a type of bridge between Buddhist voidism and Lord Caitanya and His acintya bhedabheda it makes sense.

To remain falsely identified with any material designations after taking such a fortunate birth as Bharta-varsa is to have missed the oppurtunity that taking such a birth offered.

My birthland, my culture, my language, my race, my religious designation=my illusion.

Bhakta Abdul makes some persuasive arguments. I could only disagree with his characterizations of Christians thinking Jews are of a religion that worships the devil. Actually they consider the Jews to be the chosen people of God who are unfortunately still trying to live the laws of the Old Testament instead of accepting His grace in the person of Lords Jesus Christ. But anyway that is a minor point in the context of the article.

The fact that Muslims pray regularily 5 times a day is wonderful and instructive to me. Other than that I can't think of one spiritual reason why it should even exist today. There is just too much barbarism in it and practically no transcendental knowledge. That is not a good trade off.

I have even come to the opinion that there should be no more Mosques allowed in the US. Under our constitution that would be impossible but it's on my wish list and to come to such an opinion was not easy for me but these Jihad freaks are demon's of the worst order.

I didn't read the article in question by Satyaraja but Bhakta Abdul is right on when he fingers PC appeasement talk as dangerous naive. Unfortunately the whole world seems to be stupified by the "Islam means peace" rhetoric of the limp-wrist crowd. What is really needed is a "Jihad" against the jihadis of equal fervor to the one they have declared on the rest of us.

Guru is everywhere already as the Caitya-guru within our own hearts is the same Supreme Lord who lives in the heart of every living being and thing. It then becomes a matter of our being aware of His presence and open to receivng His instructions.

"Blessed are those with ears to hears and eyes to see." -Lord Jesus Christ

One who is desiorus of pleasing Krsna's beloved representative cannot help but receive the mercy of the Lord in the form of continual enlightenment and even spiritual contact with his transcendental guru who remains commited himself to seeing his disciples full immersion in Krsna prema.

Q. What is the difference between gossip and speaking the truth,no matter how unpleasant, if it needs to be said in order to protect others?

Surely it doesn't mean keeping our heads stuck in the sand.

I have a little note pinned to my bullitein board, "Gossip is Poison".

And it surely is poison, Not just in regards to Iskcon but also to our own personal lives.

Sheep also have past lives, perhaps they are formerly very depraved humans, and now are dealing with certain samskaras in this sub-human incarnation, causing them to be attracted to other male sheep? aren't animals under the control of samskaras (psychic impressions from past lives) too?

Yes but by birth in a sheep body they are not developed to a degree to for karmic reactions from what I understand. Of course it is possible that some lonely sheepherder somewhere started having relations with his flock and developed a special attraction to the same gender as himself but in sheep form and thus was born as a homosex sheep. hehe anything is possible in this whacked out dream.

Animals are supposed to be on some kind of automatic progression through the species towards human life but I have longer wondered why some souls take dog births in Beverly Hills while others are left to wander starving and diseased.

It's a mystery.

What i was trying to say is that we can alter genes but we cannot alter fate by altering genes.

Thanks for the lucid explanation Gauracandra. 1900's huh? These were men gifted with remarkable foresight.

Swimming against Niagra...today more than ever. The soul travels on to it's new destination at death according to the tendancies it has acquired here on Earth. So to work in such a way that is in harmony with the Lord's plan for humanity can never be futile even though from the earthly angle the endeavor may seem fruitless.

Gauracandra prabhu,

I was wondering if you might give us a short synopsis on the Catholics Distributism. I had never heard of it before.

Got my weekly newsletter from PETA and this part stuck out.

"Just when you thought animal experimenters couldn't get any lower, along come new cruel and pointless "gay sheep" experiments. That's right; Charles Roselli of Oregon Health and Science University (OHSU) and Frederick Stormshak of Oregon State University (OSU) are killing homosexual sheep and cutting open their brains in an attempt to find the hormone behind homosexual tendencies so that these tendencies can be changed. And guess what? Roselli plans to "cure" humans of their homosexual tendencies next."

Scientist's may identify a problem but that is not very hard, their attempts to cure the problem once identified always remains on the superfical bodily level. They remain blinded by Maya's molecular display and can't see into the metaphysics of any condition. They may or may not find success with sheep but with humans past karmas and impressions will have to be taken into account and in that field mere hormonal manipulation will never be sufficient.

Danielle,

This is not an Iskcon site. Many have different affiliations other than Iskcon and many of us have no specific affiliation. No need to overly censor yourself.

Radhe! Radhe!

In the panchangam it is written that Sree Lakshmi's birthday falls on this day that Gaudiya Vaishnavas celebrate as Radhashtami. So we are praying to Mahalakshmi and Sreeman Narayana while ISKONS pray to Sree Krishna and Sree Radhe. Anyways both are same.

Never knew that. Yes both are gloriously the same and different simultaneously.

She will bless us in whatever loving mood we approach Her.

i read about the medecine, and it says that it is bacterias that are grown in labs.. so its life.. but then i will start eating the medecine then.. thnX

So are my probiotics.

I think the more important thing about not eatting animals is the fact that want to have the compassion and respect not to slaughter them for the taste of their flesh. Devotees won't eat animal products because they can't offer the foodstuff to Krsna. My reasons are not that elevated yet truthfully.

So we are careful but not obessively so. Having OCD tendencies I can really relate to this subject. I went through a period in the early 70's when I would hold my breath and hurry past any fast food place because I didn't want to smell cooking meat. I still don't but my reasoning then was I feared meat molecules by entering my nose were then competing with prasadam for room in my cells. It made me feel contaminated. Then when I realized the same principle applied when exposed to someone else's farts I really freaked out. LOL!

The true self cannot be contaminated by these insults to the material body.

The material world is constructed in such a way as to always demand compromise. We have to weigh factors against the greater good. I read a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and some of his disciples where they brought up that soccer team that crashed in the Andes and to survive they had to resort to eatting the flesh of the comrades who had died...cannabalism.

Srila Prabhupada understood their position and refused to condemn them saying that what they ate was just atoms.

Crazy circumstances sometimes require compromised responses. It is not that you are going out and killing and animal and eatting it's flesh for sense gratification. It may even by by a syntheic version of something that was orignally found in an animal form.

I would take the medicine. Just make sure you use that leg in doing service by walking to a place where Krsna is being glorified and dancing in kirtan.

At least this is what I would do and I am a very strict vegan who avoids even honey.

One habit I have gotten into is chanting Sri Vishnu Sri Vishnu Sri Vishnu before I take medicines or even supplements. I am trying to remember that every atom comes from Vishnu and thus has a spiritual origin and purpose.

Thanks for getting back to me. I'll try and clear a few things up. To Theist who spoke a couple of entries ago I'd like to say I'm aware of the floors with the varieties of existing "socialism" that we have seen in the world and I'm no advocate of socialism in one country. When this happens the country itself tends to become nothing but a corporate state in which all the activities of the state function as a large company within the wider capitalist system. Capitalism is a global system and only when it has been overthrown globally will socialism in truth be realised.

Wishful thinking I believe Danielle. Even if Capitalism were to be overthrown globally, which is not going to happen in the next thousand years, human nature being what it is, the overthrowers would just enthrone themselves as they became addicted to the sense of power they have gained,i.e. Mao, Stalin, Castro etc.

Let's not think of these Red "revolutionaries" as selfless beings come to save the day and who work only for good of all others. They are not. The problem I see with this ideology is that it has no metaphysics. If you want to combine socialism with Vaisnavism then you will have to apply the truths of Vaisnavism into the mix. I don't hear you doing that.

Socialism means nothing when it is not an expression of the will of the mass of people and so any enforced regime of socialism is a mockery of the concept.

Here is an example of what I said previously. The will of the mass of people is to be number one and so ultimately you have the mass of people in agreement on that point at least but the result will be as chaotic and unsatisfying as it is now as they all jockey for a better position.

Service to God and others as parts of God is integral to the living being and not the false attempt to be #1. No material scheme including socialism will ever cure this. You would end up with 6-7 billion people agreeing they have the best shot at being happy in the material wold through socialism but the problem is not one of them will achieve their goals. The living beings only real happiness comes from loving and serving Krsna.

What I think this analysis is indicating is how, when certain people are freed within society to speculate upon philisophical matters human society gains access to higher levels of knowledge and technology which enable greater insights to be made into the workings of consciousness the more people are freed from the mundane struggle for existence.

Right but that freedom to think on spiritual things you and I enjoy now and the world is not socialist.

As I heard one time when Srila Prabhupada arrived at an Indian airport after becoming famous through his mission in the west a reporter asked him if he was dvaita(dualist) or advaita (monist). Srila Prabhupada scoffed at the question and said a "hungry man does not want to discuss philosophy." India was at that time beset with famine (Bangladesh). So your point is well taken that as humans we must have our basic material needs met or we risk losing sight of spiritual life due to poverty. The rich man has a similar problem. He is also distracted away from spiritual life by over accumulation of material goods. Without the Vaisnava understanding as the basis for socialism the genuine goals of human life will never be realized no matter what the governing system happens to be. It is the absence Vaisnavism in Marx and Engles that renders them meaningless despite their many good ideas.

Krishna is knowledge and any advancements which allow for greater insights into knowledge and technology can be used to spiritually advance the greater populace.

Yes anything can be used as tools to search for Sri Krsna. But they are not essential. I don't need a Phd in neuroscience to analyze neurons in hopes of finding consciousness someday. That search all happens within by the grace of the Supersoul. Marx has nothing to say about the Supersoul so why should anyone be his follower?

I do feel uncomfortable doing this but I must so please forgive me. Prabhupada says we should be focused on agriculture and not industry and this may be true, but as far as I see it, unless there is some great cataclysm that destroys large sections of the world's population we are not going to return to feudal forms of organisation.

If you really want socialism to overtake the planet you will have to have some prototypes. And once established small local collectives will still make up the mass of the planets living and production arrangments. And the prime necessity will always remain grains and not nuts, bolts and Ipods. I don't hear Srila Prabhupada advocating for a return to feudal society. He does advocate simple living and high thinking. Factories are not simple living despite there being set up under Capitalist or Socialism .

According to the Bhagavad Gita labour is sacred. It engages our bodies in activities that bond us in Union through devotion with the Lord.

Agreed, most definetly. But you find that in the Bhagavad-gita and not the Communist Manifesto.

However, capitalism doesn't allow people to reep the benefits of this method of organisation. We are still trapped in the form of economic distribution of a previous age in which people worked as apprentice for a master, produced goods for that master, recieved payments and maintenance whilst the master reaped profits. Capitalists do nothing to engage in creative processes and yet reap most of the rewards. I'll have to go and continue tomorrow.

No argument here. But Marxism without Krsna is as much dead energy as large scale Capitalism without Krsna. Vaisnavism is transcendental to them both.

My friendily offered critique is that you are putting the cart before the horse.