theist

SB 2.2.8: Others conceive of the Personality of Godhead residing within the body in the region of the heart and measuring only eight inches, with four hands carrying a lotus, a wheel of a chariot, a conchshell and a club respectively.

SB 2.2.9: His mouth expresses His happiness. His eyes spread like the petals of a lotus, and His garments, yellowish like the saffron of a kadamba flower, are bedecked with valuable jewels. His ornaments are all made of gold, set with jewels, and He wears a glowing head dress and earrings.

SB 2.2.10: His lotus feet are placed over the whorls of the lotuslike hearts of great mystics. On His chest is the Kaustubha jewel, engraved with a beautiful calf, and there are other jewels on His shoulders. His complete torso is garlanded with fresh flowers.

SB 2.2.11: He is well decorated with an ornamental wreath about His waist and rings studded with valuable jewels on His fingers. His leglets, His bangles, His oiled hair, curling with a bluish tint, and His beautiful smiling face are all very pleasing.

SB 2.2.12: The Lord's magnanimous pastimes and the glowing glancing of His smiling face are all indications of His extensive benedictions. One must therefore concentrate on this transcendental form of the Lord, as long as the mind can be fixed on Him by meditation.

SB 2.2.13: The process of meditation should begin from the lotus feet of the Lord and progress to His smiling face. The meditation should be concentrated upon the lotus feet, then the calves, then the thighs, and in this way higher and higher. The more the mind becomes fixed upon the different parts of the limbs, one after another, the more the intelligence becomes purified.

Sriman Anadi wrote,

 

 

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The point where you say one must have some sukriti, which qualifies one to look for the mercy, to pray for the mercy, is the part where you deny the cause of the Sukriti.

 

The Sukriti comes unbidden, and is thus the first manifestation of Sri Krsna's mercy in our lives, and we were not qualified in any way to receive it except to be a lost bewildered part and parcel of Sri Krsna.

 

It is forced on us, while our free will remains in tact. Sorry, but if you really are into this philosophy you might as well get used to its ultimately inconceiveable nature. Because what I just said IS definitive, yet can still be expanded upon and glorified, just not diminished by calling some integral aspect of that comprehensive truth, the whole and correct truth itself.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

 

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The more you qualify, the more mercy you can get, this is sadhana bhakti.

Even this statement can be heard to prove our point that mercy is not earned it is causeless.

I see sadhana as a means of making ourselves proper receptacles to receive more of the mercy that is already offered and not a way of earning it.

This is also shown by the fact that some people are very expert at excecuting the forms of sadhana but who do not progress past that stage. If sadhana was the cause of their receiving mercy as in spiritual realization why are some people not progressing automatically a the same rate as their practice improves and would indicate?

It is an erroneous idea that one can buy the mercy of the Lord by offering money, building temples, pious deeds or even offering nice devotional prayers.

We can pray but the Lord remains free to respond or not as He sees fit.

Copied from the Sampradaya Sun.

....devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the "fall of the jiva" read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic. The paper came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.” Note: here is that attachment letter.

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

• "We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.
  Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.
  We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.
  So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.
  So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.
  Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.
  On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.
  Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.
  Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic."
  

You know what I really resent is people like you and there have been hundreds before you that place my postion as being one of rejecting the association of saintly person in physical form just because my emphasis is otherwise. I am sick and tired of fools arguing with me that despite my statements otherwise I am anti-sadhu sanga etc. Piss off with that.

Our conversation here has ended. Feel free to have the last word.

Stubborn huh?

Your position is absurd. I could just as easily call you a soft or covered ritvik because your emphasis on ceremonial intiation opening the gates for the acceptance of the necessity to ritvikism is someone doesn't happen to share your high estimation of your own guru.

You feel threatened because Srila Prabhupada is still potent in his commentaries. That is your problem. Please stop propagating this misconception in the name of devotional transcendentalism.

The reason I was equating your philosophy with rtivikism is because they both have the same underpinnings and tend to influence others to reject the need for higher association in apparent physcial form, the sadhu.

Well that is not in the slightest my position but even if it were you should use an appropriate word and not ritvik. Why don't you just man up and admit you were wrong in calling me a ritvik?

Yes never rejected but also always accepted with the proper understanding in the first place. If one finds they made a mistake it is only natural for them to correct the situation.

Yours is not a unique approach. Yet it seems that in your view by ommission you claiming that all may "hear Srila Prabhupada directly". You make no distinction between those who have diksa or hare nama from him and those who don't. Further you make no distinction between those who had his personal darshan and those who have not, and so on.

That is true. I make no distinction whatsoever. My common experience reveals the factfulness of my position.

I have seen those disciples who were considered "closer" to Srila Prabhupada associating with his vapu abundantly commit the most heinous of acts. I have also seen people who recently picked up a book by Srila Prabhupada and even apart fro any physical association have had their spiritual life initiated by the inspiration they received.

Why not say, All three groups operate under the same false premise of not being able to hear Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur directly and their distinctions are merely window dressing. I'm sure by now you and all the regular contributors here have read Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur's opinion about those who promoted such a statement during his time.

I do believe the same for the writings of Bhativinode Thakur. Anyone can read Jaiva Dharma and receive the Lord's grace in the form of hearing it properly. Afterall everyone advances under the tutledge of the Lord in the heart.

On the other hand you can have a roomful of 100 people hearing "directly" from the devotee as he speaks through his body and yet only 1 or 2 of those 100 may have heard him as he is actually speaking.

This idea of just having to place yourself in the same room with the devotee to absorb his message is infantile and ridiculous.

What is needed in both cases is the grace of the Lord in the heart.

As far as Bhatisiddahnta's warning I take that as directed towards those that took Bhativinodes liberal views on science and modern thiking as a gateway to distort the main body of his teachings.

The important thing here is that one's reading of past acaryas should never give rise to developing opposing views on siddahanta as expressed by the acaryas that follow him.

If you disagree with that then let me ask you why your group has bothered to translate Jaiva Dharma and attempt to distribute it worldwide? Why not Narayana Maharaja's books only?

To decry the writings of past acaryas as lacking the potency to get their message across is offensive.

We already have a major world religion based on everyone approaching Jesus Christ through their own Bible.

The same example applies to those millions that have their own intrepretaions of the Gita.

I know that you do not label yourself a "rtvik", in fact you seem rather unconcerned with the diksa concept.

Not at all. Diksa is not optional it is an imperative for every soul without exception. I accept diksa as the process (per Jiva Gosvami) whereby transcendental knowledge is imparted into the heart of the aspirant by Caitya-guru and His external manifestation as the earthly visible guru.

I am however totally unconcerned with any other definition of diksa as some formal process and other than what I just stated. I am sure you can find the word used in the way you emphasize but then again so can I. The option of where to place the emphasis lies with each of us. Take your pick and take your chances as the saying goes. I chose to pick the definition that is rooted in the eternal principle of transmission of transcnednetal knowledge. The definiton as it relates to some formal tradition has no appeal to me.

But it seems to me that it is very clear that your underlying premise and the underlying premise of the rtvik philosophy are identical.

In so much as the ritvikites say the potency is still in Srila Prabhupada's teachings then I agree. When they then after saying that push forward an offciating priest to act as the intermediary betwee that soul and Srila Prabhupada I view them as contradicitng themselves and thus I cannot identify with them.

If a newcomer was to follow your approach then still most would eventually journey into the realm of the initiation question.

Why most. My approach necessitates ALL to understand the intiation question without exception. But again your definition of intitiation is not mine. I consider diksa a process of receiving transcendental knowledge which should be emphasized from day one to every newcomer.

The most logical outcome for them would be to consider that either they had been initiated by Prabhupada through his books or to seek out a rtvik initiator and then consider themselves a direct disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

If they had followed the instructions found in the books of Srila Prabhupada and received transcendental knowledge that way then of course they have been intiated by Srila Prabhupada. Again the difference of meaning attached to initiation between us makes all the difference.

The only reason anyone would seek out a ritvik "initiator" is if they had the same view of what constitutes initiation as the one you hold. Therefore I see you as being closer to the ritvik position and myself 100% distant from it.

[quetions]To all rtviks I offer my obeisances from afar, so likewise I am doing for you, for you sir are most certainly a rtvik.

This topic is concerning points of the Krsna conscious philosophy that appear to be opposite, so therefore need to be harmonized. First we must apply Mahaprabhu's conception that the harmony lies in the fact that both poles are inconceivably, simultaneously, one and different. Acintya bheda A-bheda tattva. Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet. It is acintya, it is beyond our conception, how Krsna can tell in sastra how to qualify for krpa, mercy and then come as Sri Gaura Nitai and distribute it wholesale without any qualification. Srila Prabhupada would often make a statement and then say, "on the other hand" and give the antithesis, which would be just as true. On this thread we have the thesis attempting to cut off the hand of the antithesis and visa versa. It begins to border on some kind of aparadha for there is no search for synthesis, but rather only argumentum ad nauseum.

Beautifully said and what is said is a fact. It is the like the endless debate between the advaitins and the dvaitins. One concentrates on oneness and other other on separation. The debate was resolved by Lord Caitanya with His acintya bhedabheda-tattva.

It is a fact mercy is above justice. It is a fact that grace cannot be earned as in so much pious merit = krpa at some determined point.

This is how it is harmonized for me. The law of cause and effect which rules the desitinies of all souls living in matter is certainly not grace when see as a cold impersonal law of universal governess.

Yet when view it from a broader angle we see that it is also grace because the Supreme Designer has structured it in such a way as to correct the wayward soul, humble Him and eventually cause him to seek the grace and mercy of the Supreme Lord, everyone's eternal Friend.

So this is a broader view of grace but is not fitting most discussions because we need to see clear distinctions between operating under karmic law and placing ourselves under the influence of the grace of the Lord.

Please, let's keep this thread out of the the gossip gutter. Most of Srila Prabhupada's thousands of formally intiated disciples have fallen away in one form or another also. They could all leave for some mayavadi sect even and it would not effect Srila Prabhupada's fixed position as the eternal loving servant and friend of Krsna.

Thus sort of inquiry is obviously designed to bring discord to the forefront. It is not at all edifying. Do not take the bait. It will only kill this interesting thread causing it to die off like so many others.

Without hearing Prabhupada's teachings from the lips of pure self-realized sadhu gurus we face the present ISKCON polemic of covered rtvikism, 'the death of the sampradaya' wherein the Absolute Truth is relativized by mere institutional considerations.

Well let's see where this idea leads us. It is undenienably true we need to hear about Krsna from a pure realized sadhu. Who could object to that? But here we have the idea that one must hear the words of the self realized sadhu from a self realized sadhu.

Where does that end? What makes hearing from the second SRS more potent then hearing from first one? Accepting this logic would then mean that I need a third SRS to hear properly what the second SRS said concerning the teachings of the first SRS. Then a 4th, and 5th etc.

In this way the conditioned souls are locked into a mind set whereby they themselves never become a SRS but are instead perpetually searching for another SRS to hear from. This means that one never really finds (recognizes) guru at all. The endless search for guru and never hearing one.

One can get the full benefit from associating with and understanding the message of the SRS directly from associating with and properly hearing the first SRS as the SRS is self-effulgent and so are his teachings.

What is not realized in his association today will realized in the future by the grace of the Lord in the heart which is also contained within the instructions of the sadhu as well as directly obtainable directly from the Lord Himself.

Srila Prabhupada's teachings are self effulgent. The need is not for another SRS's explanation of what they mean but the spiritual ears to accurately hear them. Those ears comN from the Lord in the heart and can be received simply by reading Prabhupada's own commentaries.

We needn't feel we have to face the opposing forces of ritvik or the present Iskcon eccleasiasticism. Neither one have bearing on the life of any soul who wants to hear from Srila Prabhupada. They are both based on the same erroneous idea as previously discussed only they are trying to substitute their ideas in place of the the second SRS.

All three groups operate under the same false premise of not being able to hear Srila Prabhupada directly and their distinctions are merely window dressing.

I received rebirth through the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. Because he taught monotheism I am a monotheist. The Bible and Koran have scant knowledge about the Supreme Lord whom Jesus worshipped obeyed and served. Lord Jesus Christ wants us to have the same understanding of the Father and relationship with Him that he himself has. So to try to fullfill that desire of his for me I had to look outside the Bible and most certainly what presently constitutes Christian theology which has no resemblance to the teachings of Christ.

raga, are you sure you are hearing brajeshwara correctly? I reread his post and it seems to me he is saying exactly what you are saying.

SB 11.8.17: A saintly person dwelling in the forest in the renounced order of life should never listen to songs or music promoting material enjoyment. Rather, a saintly person should carefully study the example of the deer, who is bewildered by the sweet music of the hunter's horn and is thus captured and killed.

SB 11.8.18: Becoming attracted to the worldly singing, dancing and musical entertainment of beautiful women, even the great sage Rishyasringa, the son of Mrigi, fell totally under their control, just like a pet animal.

This advice is just as applicable and more urgently directed to the devotees living in modern society where this form of sound pollution is coming at us from all angles. Thanks to the misuse of Krsna's technology we are bombarded constantly with varying styles of music all carrying the central theme of loving the female form.

If we want to be engrossed in that sensual energy we need do nothing but go about our ordinary lives, but if we want to transcend to a higher sense of pleasure in relationship to Krsna we must be scrupulously careful about what enters our ears. This is not optional, it is essential.

Thank God for Krsna conscious tapes, cd's & headphones, which help us to be not of this world even while working within it.

Prabhu, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote the last post.

There is no harm in understanding the different types of fruitive work. That is unless we lose sight of transcendence along the way. Otherwise I think devotees that are intelligent should analyse such things as the different ways the modes of nature manifest etc. I am not so good at that type of study myself but I am glad there are devotees who are. Scholarly devotees who keep their eye on Krsna while engaged in scrutinizing study develop strong minds and offer a protective shield to guard against attacks by those envious of Lord Caitanya and who would undermine devotees faith if they could. Good for preaching. That is just one more distinction between the Krsna Consciousness movement and all these other sentimental New Agey groups. We have strong philosophy.

Prabhupada's use of the word karmi was always understood to be used in a generous way.

A devotee is empowered by Lord Nityanada to spread the Holy name around this fallen less then human world and which he does at an advanced age and at great sacrifice to himself and still some want to criticize even if they have to resort to nit-picking over some insignificent word usage.

Sheesh

Dear qHari, dandavat pranam,

you asked:

How does Krsna then show His mercy this way (Madhya 22.47) to someone who will never meet a guru?

 

There is no never. There's always a chance.

Chance. I don't believe in chance myself, I believe in Krsna the Supreme Controller.

perhaps face-to-face association with a living devotee

This is what I object to. The phrase "living guru" carries the offensive connotation that, in this case, Srila Prabhupada, must be something other than living as in dead. Srila Prabhupada the dead guru...does that makes sense to you? Can you see now the need to discard that offensive term and use something like "embodied guru" instead.

As soon as someone shows they consider Srila Prabhupada as something other than living I know they have no real connection with transcendence.

I am not saying that I do either but on the intellectual plane we must correct this widespread false idea.

"...thou art living still in sound."

Nice post mahak. When we come Down to Earth from all our lofty talk (and often lofty thoughts about ourselves..ahem) and back to where we are all presently liivng

and acknowledge that we have much more in common with the "common folks" around us then we like to admit sometimes, it becomes so much easier to see that Our Lord is the Lord of everyone without exception.

Just as rain falls on the ocean as well as dry land so does our Lord inhabit and love the sinner as well as the saint.

Perceiving the Lord in all means seeing past all the outer coverings of the soul and recognizing the true equality of all beings both in their happiness and distress.

By recognizing the true equality of all beings we clear our minds of prejudices and all manner of false conceptions about the nature of the self and are more prepared for the revelation of the Superself which follows as the next progressive step in God realization.

SB 11.8.10: Just as the honeybee takes nectar from all flowers, big and small, an intelligent human being should take the essence from all religious scriptures.

If we can't appreciate Krsna's devotee in his words then we can't perceive him in his body either. Rarely is Krsna's devotee actually revealed to someone as he is. How many of us view Srila Prabhupada as an elderly Indian gentleman who was short and walked with a cane? LOL!!

Same misconception exists when we view his teachings about Krsna as just words in a book.

We will never get a proper view of Srila Prabhupada, THE LIVING SPIRITUAL MASTER , by entertaining such a dead way of viewing transcendence.

Resolved.

The specific quote he objected to was "By the grace of krsna one gets guru and by the grace of guru one gets Krsna".

Apparently the thinking is we cannot be sure Srila Prabhupada was speaking according to GV siddhanta when he said that and anyone who quotes Srila Prabhupada must be able to show it's roots in the old books for it to be valid.

To me the quote is self-effulgent. To each his own.

1) I found it to be really depressing. I mean, yeah, even though Srila Prabhupad is ever-present through his words, its simply not the same than meeting a real devotee.

What are you saying!?!? This is an absurb statement. Sorry to be so blunt.

All this means is that you never appreciated the presence of Srila Prabhupada in his words.

"Srila Prabhupad is ever-present through his words, its simply not the same than meeting a real devotee."

Please rethink this GuestAdas.