theist

I hear ya brother Mahak. Enough said. Time to retreat to my own little enclave for awhile and not waste time reacting to others posts. Thanks for the siksa.

pranams

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> The basic principle of theism is that there is a Supreme God who is in control at all times. Not to understand this in our lives is a form of atheism. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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I should write that down. What a realization.

Yes you should write it down if you have a hard time remembering it writing may help.

And yes what a realization it will be when obtained. The problem is very rare is the soul that is seeking realization. Most of us prefer to take things in philosophically and be done with it. Moving on then to what is perceived as a higher topic. Having learned the basic concepts there they move on yet again often ending up with gopi or manjari-bhava at which time they start to imitate what they conceive those pastimes to be. Looking for Krsna hiding behind some bush in Vrndavan after years of ignoring Him within the heart won't be fruitful. Some of these folks actually become cross dressers thinking they are gopis.

All the while failing to realize any of it along the way. This intellectual tower of babel that we try to build comes with one major constructural flaw. That is shown by our unwillingness to realize Krsna within our own hearts and the hearts of others. IOW's we still want to avoid becoming Krsna conscious in the realized sense and are satisfied with an imitation Vaisnava life of intellect only. We call it bhakti but it is really just a form of jnana yoga which hasn't resulted in realization yet.

My point is that a tiny drop of bhakti at least is necessary to approach the REALIZED PLANE. And it is this plane only that denotes an advanced devotee from the rest of the herd.

don't know any self-appointed ritviks. Do you?

All your friends who perform these so-called ritvik initiations are either self-appointed or ecclesiastically selected from their local association.

The only ones who could claim to have been instructed by Srila Prabhupada to continue such initiations within his Iskcon were the magnificant 11 and they certainly showed no interest in it.

Connecting with Krsna and His devotee comes via grace from the Lord and that grace is not dependent ritvik "initiation" ceremonies.

So again I ask, "Who needs a ritvik?"

So he gives some tools. At first they are rules. No-one gets the unalloyed eternal dictation from Supersoul without following the rules strictly. And that eternal dictation is not cheaply gained by a couple years of neophyte service For Most of Us. It is actually a symptom of the most exalted Vaisnava to have uninterrupted conscious communion with Supersoul.

 

But I know too many, way too many, who push this "supersoul connection" as if they already have it CONSCIOUSLY established eternally. Many of them post on this forum. If it wasn't so sad, I would say it is laughable.

 

Cheap, imitation, sahajya.

But let's not mention names. LOL. Sorry to find out that after 30 odd years of being around the teachings of Srila Prabhupada you still haven't read Bhagavad-gita As It Is. I am sure you turned the pages to that great book but apparently you read it with your eyes closed.

If you try again you will notice that Krsna describes how He as Supersoul is directing the wanderings of all conditioned souls, some to heaven some to hell and some to the teachings of His external manifestation as Guru.

Are you really so arrogant that you cannot admit you did not connect up with Srila Prabhupada by the power of your own independent intelligence? Or perhaps you think it was just dumb luck, a random happening akin to the atheistic scientists thinking all the universe has come about by the random colliding of one molecule against the other with no God in control.

The basic principle of theism is that there is a Supreme God who is in control at all times. Not to understand this in our lives is a form of atheism.

It is solely by Supersoul's arrangement anyone meets up with guru in vapu and further garce is needed to be able to hear Supersoul's voice as that guru's vani. If you are not hearing Supersoul speaking as your spiritual master and through his form I dare say you have no guru at all except maybe in the most superfical of ways. Guru may be constitutional jiva but because he is 100% dovetailed with Krsna the spiritual insight that comes from him is directly the Lord's voice speaking as the that guru. To conclude that one hears his spiritual master loud and clear but that he can't hear Supersoul is a sign that one has no spiritual connection with the spiritual master at all. All he may have is a delusion of such a connection.

Appreciating and acknowledging the presence of the Supersoul within us does not mean you have to have established a pure transcendental realization of Him yet. First we must accept it intellectualy, as per the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita, and then deepen that understanding and relationship through time and practice.

Supersoul is the missing link in all these guru/ritvik discussions. If the ecclesiastical folks in Iskcon understood this then they would see that there never was any need for them to jump in and try to direct devotees to this guru or that. They would know that Supersoul in the heart answers the sincere seeker by directing him to His own representative on earth. But because they don't accept this simple thing one is forced to conclude that they also have an atheists understanding despite their mountains of religious garb and paraphenelia. The self appointed so-called ritviks are just another form of this same faithlessness.

Just joined the board and was wonmdering where do i go to post my questions? Maybe you can help....i'm a 21 year old girl living in phoenix and recently became very touched and interested in Hinduism. How do you feel about new people going to temple that want to learn and experience? I really want to go to the local temple here but am afraid of people judging me and looking like an idiot. Can you please tell me what i should do? I have been studying very hard and reading, but i really want to go to temple. Thanks so much!

DeAnna

Just go and learn. Nobody is expected to know new tradions without time and practice. You needn't know some college course before you enter that college course. Just go looking for a new experience and don't try to look like anyone other than a newcomer. Newcomers are cool too.

To post questions like this one you should click on the 'start a new thread'

located on the top left of the page that says Spiritual Discussions.

Welcome to the board.

For those who say we blooped from Krsnaloka, how can it be???

 

What are you to prove by your apa-siddhanta???

 

You hail Srila Prabhupada as jagat-guru whilst spinning yarns and half-truths about the final conclusions of all previous acaryas.

 

Do you know better then them? Would Srila Prabhupada not know the conclusions?

 

Or do you have a selfish agenda whereby you seek false ego self-agrandisement by saying how great is Srila Prabhupada -your guru- and at the same time putting down all other's gurus at gunpoint, your self-professed manifesto of rtvik hate?

Hey krsna, I have to ask, why ask questions of others if you are unwilling to engage in some dialouge with the respondents. Especially considering the obnoxious tone of your last post. You have done this for years.

Sometimes you post just to inspire some introspection which I can appreciate but this above is of a far lower level.

Of course I doubt highly that you will respond to this, maybe just take then as food for your own introspection.

I'm not sure I can stand to hear any more of how badly Srila Swami Maharaj was treated by his 'disciples' But continue anyhow, it just makes me feel so furtunate to not have been caught up in all of that. So some of the same people are leading ISKCON now? Dear Lord.

The violence continued(s) in the form of changing his books and turning his *transcendental movement into an ecclesastical farce.

*meaning Iskcon. His transcendental movement still exists.

"CB-R;

Who is saying that ritvic is middle man? YOU, not me. I'm a follower of Prabhupada's that accepts ritvic instruction and I do not say that ritvic has anything other than sercritarial help to do with the relationship between Prabhupada as Guru and the new aspirent. I was also an origanal IRG man, I never said different then either. Ritvic's position is secritariate and Prabhupada is giver of bija, always has been in ISKCON, always will be. Remember a so-called ritvic has said like this, me!"

 

 

So why do you think someone needs "secretarial" help for their connection with Prabhupada, might be the real question. Are you saying that reading Prabupada's books would not be enough to develop spiritual understanding?

It could only be achieved if some one had a ritvik to preform an intiation ceromony for him?

It really is this simple folks.

There are so many gurus: caitya-guru, diksa-guru, siksa-guru, bhajana-guru, and

others. Why go to a bogus-rtvik guru? If our siksa-gurus are Caitanya

Mahaprabhu, Nityananda prabhu, and Radhika, why do we need to go to these

rtviks?

Exactly! Now couple this quote from Narayan Maharaja with the one at the end of this post from Srila Prabhupada and the true picture comes into focus.

Self-appointed ritviks. That's what he said. He isn't disregarding the wishes of Srila Swami Maharaj from what I understand. Are there any original ritviks left?

This is exactly the point. The original ritviks quickly took advantage of the situation for personal gain proclaiming themselves empowered links to Krsna. So after too many years some people see through the fraud and want to re-establish the ritvik system that Srila Prabhupada set up for ISKCON (and not the rest of the parampara). Problem is it is those ritviks that were the cause of the problem in the first place and in so doing screwed everything up beyond repair.

The present day ritviks says ISKCON should accept Prabhupada's last instructions and return to the ritvik system that he authorized. That would entail using the same group of personalities that screwed it all up. They were the ones that were authorized afterall. Hardly tenable.

So the present ritviks, perceiving the need for ceremony to be absolute, self-appoint from among themselves devotees to conduct the ceremony and take on the role of offical ritviks. Do they have a list of names given by Srila Prabhupada authorizing these people to be Prabhupada's ritviks? No, so they just write their own instead.

Then they go on to conduct ritvik ceremonies for new devotees and tell them that now they can have a connection with Srila Prabhupada and I might add under the impression that if it weren't for these inventive ritvik people no one could approach Srila Prabhupada. So in this oblique way they are declaring themselves to be the real links for new devotees to connect to the sampradaya. I say oblique referring to their smokscreen of only linking them to Srila Prabhupada and not as the ecclesastical set from Iskcon who proclaim they are links to Krsna.

News flash folks. A link with Prabhupada IS a link to Krsna and not one step removed from it. Ritviks are just a different version of the same ecclesiastical nonsense only.

They are all frauds in this way and thus an unnecessary disturbance to human society.

They share another thing with their ecclesiastical cousins in Iskcon. They assume they have a license to engage in heavy criticism of other's guru's from the GM or anyone else that doesn't join their little clicks. Such constant mud chucking at others teachers proves to me they have no real connection with Krsna at all.

The real violence is to new devotees who think approaching the Lord and His devotee through respectful obediance and prayer is not sufficent without their ritvik touch. You will all suffer for this fraud that is misdirecting seeking souls.

Dear Theist.

 

You state that you see I want readers to think of me as a very strict follower of Bhaktivedanta who "follows every rule and procedure to the T."

 

Bas Prabhu. I expected a better jab then that if you won't just humbly eat some crow.

 

I, like lots of others around these parts, like to paraphrase a bit based on my realization, but I will always give a reference where someone can check out what I say.

 

In that case I was simply making a point. What I spoke was the truth. I have had some glimpses of Bhakti after Vaidhi, so I can relate to what Srila Prabhupada says about this.

 

And if one follows every rule and procedure, I refer to the one's they know about. I don't know all the rules yet. For example all of the offenses to avoid during Arcana for Sri Sri Radha-Krsna Vigraha, and the method of worship.

 

But those I know of and have been shown the context to apply them in, either I follow them or I don't. And the result of following all the rules and regs that Sri Guru makes me aware of, even if they seem mechanical and monotonous at first due to my lack of transcendental awareness, if I follow them, I get Raganuga realization, and the MAIN POINT WHICH EVERYONE SEEMS TO DANCE AROUND IS THAT AS PER SRILA PRABHUPADA AND PAST ACHARYAS, THE RULES AND REGS ARE GENERALLY STRICTLY FOLLOWED, EVEN BY ACHARYAS.

 

Someone who has been around as LONG as you have should understand quite well that it is not a matter there being some generic set of rules and regs and a timeframe they must be followed or there is no effect.

 

Vaidhi Sadhana is an individual thing in many ways, but the common denominator is Surrender to Authority, and for SOME TIME, following STRICTLY any order that pertains to one's self given by said authority.

 

Have I made myself clear? No ulterior motive, I am not promoting myself directly, just want to discuss or argue the FACTS. I do not feel the need to be falsely humble and declare some miserable neophyte position in order to be accepted. My neophyte position is actually more advanced than that. LOL.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

Well you have tried to soften your tone so it appears you are the to eat crow pie. Well enough. The earth actual feels good when our bare feet connect us and ground us doesn't it. I've been knocked back down so many times I am afraid to try and jump up again.

Other than that you said nothing that is new to anyone on this forum. But the change in tone is refreshing.

It sure is easy to cherry pick when one lives atop an Ivory tower.

 

A neophyte follows strictly every detailed nuance of each order given by his Spiritual Master. Rules and Regs are the life. If someone is so conditioned that their spiritual master institutionalizes them, that should be considered the necessary mercy, and every rule and procedure followed to the T.

 

From this strict sometimes sweet and sometimes bitter Vaidhi Sadhana, one naturally makes a transition to Raganuga sadhana, apparently performing the same activities, following the same rules and regs, but subjectively that bhakta has the sense of engaging in spontaneous activity. Inconceivable but true, this is mentioned in the Nectar of Devotion.

 

So anyone who is "no longer interested" in some procedure that an Acharya considered important enough to include in the sadhana offered to his disciples, they have become asara or useless to that particular mission, and certainly have not passed through vaidhi bhakti sadhana, forget being in anyway authorized or deserving of holding opinions on methods of a great Acharya.

 

Hare Krsna

 

p.s. I take no liberties, I just do not speak pleasantly as if in social company, if I see the truth I talk about it, palatable or not, false ego's notwithstanding, especially in a place where people go for "spiritual discussion".

Since you like to speak in such a straight forward way I take it you can listen up in the same spirit when it comes back to you. From the first two paragraphs I see you want readers to think of you as a very strict follower of Bhaktivedanta who "follows every rule and procedure to the T."

Maybe so but I highly doubt it. I have seen so many people that think and speak like you fall down and have seen none that haven't. You can fool those around you for awhile with the ritually pure act but it is a fact that every wet dream, act of selfishness, feeling of superiority and hatred of others is seen by the Lord in the heart. We can't fool or bluff Krsna. So best to just drop the game Mr Bone Fide and return to earth. Like the Chinese proverb says, "It is the well grounded tree that grows the tallest and withstands the wind."

As to vaidih bhakti, I have stated numerous times that my position is below the standard of vaidhi bhakti and that is just a fact. No secret there.

Yes Prabhu, I was just joking. The statement "As Acharya of your own mission" was pretty was far out there, I thought is was pretty funny. You have been nothing but helpful and kind to me, I hope I caused you no offense.

No No. This has happened a couple times now. I was really using your post to address the thrust of BD's post. I should be more clear.

The funny thing is my Dr. called me the "Shaman of his own temple" a couple weeks ago. I quiz him on everything he tries to give me for my blood pressure and have rejected several of his prescribed meds. He is not used to that.

Looks like I am getting a reputation. I live in infamy.

Theist is his own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya? Sweet!

 

 

Theist knows he is not his own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya. I am simply an ant who is living under the shelter of said tree and live off the bits of fruit that sometimes fall my way.

I am just a small soul lost in a gigantic and bewildering matrix of temporary sights, sounds, tastes, sensations of touch, smells, and thoughts and concepts.

10,000 plus posts I can't remember ever saying I was a representative of GV, or a disciple of any guru, or anything like that. I am just a small soul lost in a gigantic and bewildering matrix of temporary sights sounds tastes sensations of touch smells and thoughts and concepts trying to perceive the Eternal through this display.

Nothing more.

If we read CC Madhya 15 107-108, we can see exactly Srila Prabhupada performed a formal initiation ceremony for his disciples.

I have read that section many times and have a completely different understanding then you apparently do.

CC Madhya 15.107: "Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

CC Madhya 15.108: "One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

CC Madhya 15.109: "By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entanglement in material activities. After this, one becomes very much attracted to Krishna, and thus dormant love for Krishna is awakened.

CC Madhya 15.110: "'The holy name of Lord Krishna is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that, save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krishna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krishna. When a person simply chants the holy name with his tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya

regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for any of these activities. It is self-sufficient.'"

Not all who are born in the family of dog eaters are conditioned souls.

 

Liberated souls can take the holy name and complete all 9 processes and acheive perfect love of Krsna.

I don't accept your interpretaton that only liberated souls can take the holy name and complete the nine processes of devotional service.

What it clearly says is that simply by chanting the Holy name one can complete all nine processes of devotional service. IOW's words the Holy Name contains all the other process within it.

CC Madhya 15.107: "Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

You are turning these verses on their head. I think you are the dangerous one.

Conditioned souls are mercifully given a process by which they can come to the point of chanting WITHOUT OFFENSE.

Yes and verse 107 above clearly says that that process can be completed simply by chanting the Holy Name. Anything else one chooses to include in his sadhana is his personal choice.

Proper initiation according to the injunctions in the scripture by a bonafide spiritual master is an essential part of this process, as it is a gateway to authorized arcana vigraha, the fourth process, the one that helps all the conditioned souls like me and YOU to progress nicely out of our neophyte dilemnas.

And Prabhupada said his own initiation came in the form an impression he received from Bhaktisiddhanta the first time he met him. And then 11 years later he went through the ceremony. Do you see the distinction between initiation and the ceremony now?

And you can argue with Srila Prabhupada's decision to authorize ritvik priests to arrange diksa initiation completely without his involvement while he was still walking the earth, that doesn't change the historical fact of it, nor the fact that he called this ritvik representation, and appointed others to carry on that system.

What makes you think I have a quarrel with it. You take too many liberaties with others thoughts my friend. You have little idea what I think about anything so better you stick to explaining your own perspective on things.

Of course if one is starting one's own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya, then you can choose how to initiate, and "no ritviks needed" is fine with me, you go for yours. It just seems inappropriate to comment in a contradicting fashion on some other Acharya's system where his disciples are still following those rules.

Are you a crazy man? Who said anything about starting their own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya or initiating anyone.

As Acharya of your own mission, you ought to understand that neophytes faith is easily swayed, and to contradict their chosen Acharya is counterproductive to your sweet Lord's mission. Ok?

My own mission??? You are very expert in insulting others aren't you?

Einen Lehrer anzunehmen ist nicht eine jüdische Verschwörung!

adau guru padasraya

First one must accept a guru

zuerst müssen Sie einen Lehrer annehmen

adau guru padasraya

First one must accept a guru

zuerst müssen Sie einen Lehrer annehmen

First one must accept a guru

zuerst müssen Sie einen Lehrer annehmen:deal:

Well, I don't confuse a formal initiation ceremony with actually accepting a spiritual master.

I am not antagonistic towards such ceremonies I simiply have no interest.

No need for ritviks. We know Srila Prabhupada is a lover and knower of Krsna. As such we bow down before him. That will be pleasing to krsna according to our sincerity.

When Krsna is pleased to see us honor His devotee He will reciprocate by turning up the samvit dial within our hearts and help us understand the instructions left by Srila Prabhupada. Those instructions point us to honoring obeying and ultimately loving Krsna. When we follow those instructions to love Krsna Srila Prabhupada will be pleased to see us moving in that direction and Krsna will be pleased with us because Srila Prabhupada will be pleased.

This is the complete formulae and if we carry it out fully we will become perfect lovers of Krsna ourselves.

I see no need for a stamp of approval in the form of a formal initiation by either the ecclesiastical guru walas or the self-appointed ritviks. Their opinons concerning my internal affairs are meaningless to me and I consider them both to be unnecessary disturbances in society.

Re: Dvaita and Advaita: A Reconciliation

 

· Re: Dvaita and Advaita: A Reconciliation -

·

anand hudli writes:

[...]

|> At the risk of being criticized by both sides, especially by Dvaitins

|> who may find my attempt to bring Dvaita into the Advaitic fold obnoxious,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

This is akin to saying, we have what you have and more.

Certainly is not in the spirit of reconciliation.

 

The correct attitude would be let us bring Dvaita and Advaita together

under Vedanta or some other neutral framework. By opening with "bring

Dvaita into Advaita" you have already set the tone that advaita is

infalliable and where there is a need for compromise, it will be dvaita

that will take the hit and there are several instance of this in your

post as I will point out.

I understand the repliers objections to the use of the term "reconciliation" as meaning Dvaita must somehow be dovetailed with Advaita. The thought is preposterous. Vaisnava's will not move as much as the space occupied by one atom away from Krsna's lotus feet in the name of reconciliation or for any other reason. The only reconciliation that we beginner Vaisnavas seek is to reconcile or dovetail our will with Krsna's will.

Krsna consciousness as taught by Mahaprabhu and his disciples (simultaneous oneness and difference) is the already reconciled positon that includes purified Avaita in it's proper place. There will be no compromise coming from the Vaisnava sector.

From their perspective Vaisnavas are already seen to love and adore the Brahman effulgence of Krsna. They undersand that it is Krsna's aura, His radiance, and therefore it is unspeakably beautiful and glorious.

If some individual souls wish to merge into that effulgence and take a rest from their material misery we can surely understand and are sympathic. Those of us who are beginners on the Vaisnava path also desire liberation from samsara. We just see a higher more perfect way of accomplishing that. A way in which liberation itself which looks so big to us now will become insignificant as our attraction to loving service to Krsna dawns and grows. We see no need for seeking an eternal death like state and prefer the path of eternal life instead.

Ah, so is 'love' in the material world. They could have bought flowers for Krishna and given to Him together.

Ahhh yes. The devotees perspective. Indeed in that way their love would be eternal. Which brings up the question of amorus love between two jivas in the spitirual world with Krsna in the center. Why not? There must be some place in Vaikuntha for such expressions of love as long as it is 100% Krsna centered. Never heard for sure though. What do you think?

Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

THIS is Srila Prabhupada's conclusion on the whole debate.

Even after several answers, you're not able to understand that there's no cause for a beginningless entity. If there were, it wouldn't be a beginningless entity. This is accepted EVEN BY YOUR GAUDIYA SCHOOL.

Gaudiya School teaches that Krsna is the Cause of all causes. We are beginningless but yet we have a cause. The sun and the sunlight appear simulataneously yet only a fool would ignore the fact the sun globe is the cause of sunlight. acintya bhedabheda tattva.

Please stop telling us what our schools think instead of answering the question directly according to Avaita. It is clear you have no answer so why do you keep embararassing yourself with these bluffs.

Advaita doesn't say Brahman is everything. What you call "everything" is mithya, according to advaita. Brahman alone is satya. So your idea that Brahman is everything is flawed.

Oh are you saying then that something exists that is not Brahman? Even if you think that only Brahman exists as impersonal spiritual energy then that is everything is it not?

Don't concern yourself with what you think I mean by this and that and just answer according to Advaita. The fact that you don't do this shows me that you don't have faith in Advaita at all.

According to Gaudiya school, Krishna has auspicious qualities and is everthing. How then do you account for any inauspicious things existing anywhere at any time?

Because Krsna has gifted jivas with an eternal free will. Free will is the boundary marker between you soul and another. Free will would mean nothing without the ability to choose between committing auspicious acts and inauspicious acts. The material field is here for those jivas that want to commit inauspicious acts, such as claiming that there is no Supreme personality of Godhead for example.

Krsna says in the Gita "In one sense I am everything, but yet I am independent." Krsna is never touched by inauspiciousness yet it exists in the field of one of His energies.

Even according to your gaudiya school, beginningless phenomena do not have a cause, so your questions do not arise for people who understand this. People who don't understand this make up stories as to which being created this, or whether there was an official date when the dream world was launched, and so forth!

Covered in question one. We say Krsna is the Cause of all causes. Stick to you own philosophy when we want to learn what GV's accept as truth we know from whom to listen.

No one here wants to hear your lecture on what we believe. You jumped in to defend Advaita so that is what you should be trying to explain. I suspect you at one time were interested somewhat in GV siddhanta but choose Advaita istead. That is all right as that is your Krsna given right to ignore Him in what ever way you choose.

Even after several requests you have not been able to directly account for the presence of the jivas existence in the first place so how can you continue to talk of jivas? First establish your foundation then build upon it.

Secondly everyone here knows that the jivas are dreaming. Dreaming is going on no dispute. However dreaming itself is an action. Advaita says Brahman is everything and INACTIVE. So how do you account for any action existing anywhere ever?

Vaisnava's also say the cause and effects of this material world are the results of the dreams of illusioned jiva's. But who has provided the necessary field for the living out of our dreams? Before Brahma there existed all the necessary ingredients for the jivas to construct their dreams from. The maha-tattva is the result of Vishnu's dreaming in His yoga nidra. The differnce being, Vishnu does not ever falsely identify with the dream He manifests. We do. That is the difference between the jiva and the Supreme Lord.

Hahaha!

Too cheap to pony up for some flowers and chocolate and look what it got him.

Definitely. The material world is one in which we don't let the facts don't get in the way of our cherished illusions.

The material world is certainly a dream. A dream has it's own reality as a dream however. Illusion does exist as illusion.

That is not the main controversy. It is your complete inability to describe the dreamer that is most unsatifisfactory.

Please explain the nature of the dreamer as espoused by Sankaracarya.