theist

Photo in the News: Skeleton "Valentines" Won't Be Parted

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<!-- leave the Zdeck alone! --> <!--- startbody ---> February 13, 2007—In what's been called a Valentine's Day gift to Italy, archaeologists today excavated two interlocked Stone Age skeletons—leaving their "eternal embrace" intact and making it easier to analyze the double burial.

Discovered last week during construction not far from Verona, the setting of Romeo and Juliet, the roughly 5,000-year-old couple has already become an icon of enduring love to many.<!--- deckend --->

Like Shakespeare's star-crossed lovers, the prehistoric twosome appear to be young, as evidenced by the condition of their teeth. But that's about all that is known about them so far. They could just as easily be two brothers.

But dig supervisor Elena Menotti takes the romantic view.

"It was a very emotional discovery," the archaeologist told the Associated Press last week. "From thousands of years ago we feel the strength of this love. Yes, we must call it love."

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We can see alot in this photo. I see the soul's need to love and to be loved expressed. We all have that. The sad thing is that we are trying to express this need for love through dead matter and the picture above represents the most that can come from that attempt in this temporary world. It is not enough.

Soul's do not need flesh blood and bones to know love. Love is our desire, the desire of the spiritsoul. Bones don't desire to love. And love is not just a chemical reaction due to dopamine in the brain as the materialists would have us believe.

The picture above gives a perfectly encapsulated vision of the materialist's paltry ideal of "enduring love."

Devotees have a different picture in mind.

brajeshwara das, Sorry to tell you are stupid. How dare you speak about Shankaracharya. He talked and lived with God. But you only philosopical Blabberings. I keep on telling you- go and do your sadhana. The path to God is not only one, there are different paths. Even you reach him, its up to you whether you want to be the servant .

Please you like an donkey with blinkers, stating that only your right and the rest of Gurus are wrong. This is absurd. Please don't be stupid

So far this is a nice discuusion/debate. Your ad hominum attacks have no place here. Speak philosophically or don't speak.

Long time. Hope you have been well.

Saw this thread on Advaita and theist getting involved and I thought I might add something here of interest to everyone.

 

Theist - at least in the past - has been a strong advocate of "simultaenous oneness and difference". Now I have no clue what that would mean, but theist seems to be clear on the meaning. As theist understands 50% of oneness, he should be able to answer 50% of your questions on advaita - specifically in relation to oneness. Theist should defend half of Advaita....and reject the other half!

 

What do you think?

 

Cheers

Basically you are correct. As I understand Lord Caitanya's philosophy of inconceiveable simultaneous oneness and difference the first principle is that it is inconceivable by the mind. Oneness is Absolute Truth. So Is Duality. Both at the same time. Neither alone. Dualism without oneness is an incomplete realization. Oneness without dualism is also incomplete.

I accept the oneness of Advaita. We have come from Krsna therefore in that sense we are Krsna. Yet we are infitesimal parts whereas He is the Unlimited Supreme Whole.That is the eternal difference.This is not some preliberation mind set that is finally given up at liberation. This is the liberation realization itself.

I reject the notion of Advaita that perfect enlightenment involves losing the sense of individualness and personality. Quite the opposite. It means to regain our true personality in relation to Krsna the Supreme personality. This where real bhakti begins. Bhakti is the very active nature of the self in the liberated state.

Be well Shiv

Hare Krsna

Who was talking about karma? Not me. That has nothing to do with question Kishan posted and I echoed.

I just mean there isn't just one Acarya that represents our sampradaya. Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada was not necessarily the most recent, but a branch.

I agree. A tree grows in many directions all at once with it's branches extending out from many different points along the tree trunk. The branches bear fruit. I may receive the fruit from one branch on this side of the tree and you may receive fruit from a branch on the other side but the fruit will be the same. It will be natural that we will feel gratitude primarily to the branch which has nourished us but we must remain cognizant of the unity of all the branches and that the tree is one.

Smaller branches may go unseen by the majority but the fruit from them will be just as sweet as that from the large branches.

It is explained exactly the same way as in Madhvacharya's and Ramanujacharya's philosophies. Since gaudiya vaishavism attempts to ride piggy back on Madhva's tradition to claim authenticity, you can check back with your own scholars on why they dodge the question.

 

Om

LOLOLOL!! AS EXPECTED. NO ANSWER. WHAT A JOKE.

You could have given me a direct answer in as much time as it took you to write the last two dodges but because you know you have no adequate answer you have to dance around while juggeling words. That is OK for the carnival but it won't help in the process of self AND God realization.

Thanks for the chat anyway.

That is not an answer to the question, it is just a typical dodge. How is such explained according to Advaita?

What do you mean by Sampradaya Acarya brajeshwara? I know of one devotee who uses this term on his web site to refer to Srila Prabhupada but I have never really understood it or heard it elsewhere.

Jivas exist as pratibimbas of Brahman, and in that state, they're not aware of their true nature on account of the limiting adjunct. Once this limiting adjunct, namely avidya, is removed, jiva/brahman identity is established. And there's no cause for this, because even according to other schools of thought, it's accepted that bondage has no beginning.

 

Hence, to posit a creator or cause and THEN pose questions on this, makes little sense. Therefore, other questions of yours are all answered once this point is understood.

Why the plurality in the first place? It is not enopugh to just say "jiva's exist as..." First explain why they exist at all.

I am not the above mayavadi. Your argument is the first, basic argument that was ever created against Advaita and has been adequately answered over a thousand years ago. If you are really interested in knowing the Advaita response you have to go an Advaita forum. Challenging Advaita on a Vaishnava forum and then concluding your arguments are spectacular because you received no response? You may as well challenge the Bahai faith and concude your arguments were excellent as no will respond to your challenge here.

I have no interest in the nature of the mayavadi response actually. I do not seek them out for anything and generally try to avoid them so no need for me to visit their forums.

"Challenging Advaita on a Vaisnava forum...", This is the wrong perspective jiva. mayavadi challenged us on a Vaisnava forum.

Over the years I have had many encounters with impersonalists (Advaitn's) although in the US where I live it is rare to meet someone who has actually studied Sankaracaya's teaching in depth. On the internet I have encountered those with much more depth in his teaching, such as yourself no doubt.

But it doesn't matter because the question in question is so basic. What was the cause of the one impersonal Brahman fragmenting itself into innumerable jivas in the first place?

That happening indicates initiative and desire in the Brahman, attributes that could never exist if there was no Supreme Personality involved.

Please give your explanation. I have heard the response before but await your contribution. I would also like to say right off that I have no interest personally in a debate but we can exchange viewpoints if you like.

Hare Krsna

Could Suta Gosvami's name not easily and properly be placed in the gap between Vyasadeva and Madhva? (by gap I am obviously refering to 'in historical time').

Suta Gosvami was a hearer of the conversation between Sukadeva and Pariksit. He then passed it on and it has come down to us.

Who among the other sages present also heard correctly and passed it on thus spreading Bhagavat Parampara in outher directions we can't say.

There is no humanly possible way of our tracing the movement of the Bhagavat parampara. That would be like our noting every possible drop of rain that fell to earth. An impossible task therefore we tale note of such outstanding accumulation as rivers and floods etc. Similarily we are told to note the prominent links. We line them up in a chronological order to make it simpler for our minds to trace.

But we must remember that not every bone fide Krsna conscious teacher is on that list and that does not mean they are not genuine and potent also.

All respects to the previous links known and unknown who have helped send the transcendental truth of Krsna consciousness down in time to us.

Good question Kishan. I have asked this question of mayavadi's many times and never received even an attempted response. The reason is obvious. You know this very well hence your asking the question. Let's see if our current mayavadi can respond.

"There are many things below, the charm and reasonableness of which is enough to convince a person to come this side. And the higher things should be left high above our head."

Don't the Puranas tell a story about some cow being killed and it's blood flowed into the earth becoming red vegetables or something like that? I know some devotees consider that some of these red vegetables as meat citing the Puranas. There was such a thread here years ago to that effect otherwise I never heard of it before. Were they wrong in that there is no such story?

:D:D

I hear you brother soul. Perhaps one day we will meet on the eternal side dancing playing and worshipping the Lord together.

Our other brothers and sisters who are presently caught up in the mukti bhukti cycle will also one day join us when they become dissatisfied with the loneliness of sayuja-mukti and turn to Krsna. The necessity for an eternal loving relationship with the Lord as the only position that can satisfy the soul is there inherent in every living being. IT MUST COME FORTH eventually.

I am sure most of us went through similar illusions in this life or past ones so we can empathize with the mayavadi's and wish them well but now that we are past that stage we cannot look back or linger with that philosophy for a moment more. We must press forward in bhakti.

Who would ever consider the suicidal sane?

Indeed. Only other death-wishers would follow their path. We are life-wishers and thereore must follow the ways of Life as our path, illuminated by the Living through their transcendental teachings.

Can there really be nothing beyond just divine conciousness?

Nothing beyond Divine Consciousness sounds good but I like the Vaisnava angle on this, which is, as I understand it; There is nothing beyond the Divinely Conscious One.

Afterall what is the meaning of divine consciousness apart from the one whose consciousness that is?

The mayavadi's assertion and vision of mukti is one of UNconsciousness and not divine consciousness at all.

They are not much different than the Buddhist's really. One says you are nothing and the other says you are everything which amounts to nothing because there is nothing to be conscious of if you are everything.

That means both groups totally ignore Narayana, Who Himself is everything and yet simulataneously always independent, and one step beyond being everything. Just being everything is a limitation the mayavadi's try to impose on Narayana.

The Lord is more than everything, He is Krsna. The Supreme Object of Love as well as the Supreme Lover.

Vaisnavas consider the impersonal conclusions of the Buddhists and Sankarites as morbid and another form of hell. They both are actually driven by a death wish as a way to escape samsara.

I am sticking with hearing from the Vaisnavas no matter how many births it takes me to reach love for God. I want to live eternally and not be eternally dead. I want that eternal life to be filled with knowledge and bliss and ever new and expanding realizations of the Divinely Conscious One. I want to know love and be loved. Not just as a salve to temporarily ease the pain of samsara but as a transcendental experience that stands on it's own merit.

Only Vaisnavism offers this and I see no reason not to try for the highest no matter how long it takes. Who could ever be satisfied with nonbeing.

Please don't be seduced by the mayabadi word juggelry. Stick with Ramanujacarya. He will see you safely to your highest destination.

Why exactly do some devotees consider red foods forbidden. Is it because of the effects on the mind or is there some other reason given?

I have never heard of someone becoming all agitated after eatting a tomato or carrot. There must be another reason given.

And my understanding for astrological basis is that it's a matter of vibrations influencing thought, mode of life, and synchronicity (something even some psychologists such as Carl Jung take very seriously).

I have the same belief. Afterall the word astro in astrology refers to astral matter or IOW's, "vibrations influencing thought...".

When we consider the fact that everything in the universe is somehow or another interconnected and has some effect on something else then why should we be surpeised that the planets in our immediate solar system may have an effect on our minds similar to what the Moon has on our ocean tides.

The universe is built on the strength of Krsna's intelligence therefore we should not be surprised to discover meaning beyond the obvious in what we consider ordinary things.

I always thought the idea of astrologically pairing couples before marriage up was very intelligent and insightful. My opinion is that if the practice is to be given up it should only be because of the lack of qualified astrologers in this age.

But to go even farther than astrology is the real goal. Krsna can change anything if he likes including so-called destiny. Only His will is all-powerful. I had experiences of this that I am sure qualifies and I imagine all those that try to turn to God have them also recognized or not. After an aborted attempt at bramacary life and living in the local temple I had a job that kept me in a truck picking up donated items from peoples homes.

One day it was snowing and the roads were icey. We came to a stop and I jump out of the truck to run across the street and didn't look for traffic. I slipped on the ice in the street and was lying flat on my back and a car was approaching headed right for me. The elderly man behind the wheel hit his brakes but the were not much good on the ice. His car came to a sliding stop with the tire LESS THAN 1 INCH from my neck. One more revolution of the tire or six more inches and it would have severed my head from my body. Inwardly I laid there in a state of incredible peace the lacks of which I wish I could have all the time. The elderly couple were freaked out of the minds because they thought they may have killed me. I became worried for them and had a hard time calming them down.

Either Krsna changed my karma or even the experience itself was destined to teach me that my fate and all others as well, lies directly in the hands of God.

We are so small and are helpless without Krsna.

Oh sorry. I have no idea then how to help you. There are many other mantra cd's listed on the link I gave you so perhaps one of those. You may also try the more Hindu centered forums here at Audarya Fellowship where such practices are more common place and maybe there you can get a more defintive answer.

Hare Krsna

The Maha-mantra. Looks like you have already found it. But for cd recording you can go here and check out the audio cd section.

http://www.matchless-gifts.com/

Happy Chanting

This morning I watched a telecourse program on geography put out by Community colleges for distance learning to earn credits. (Something tempting there but that's another subject )

It was very interesting and beautifully filmed. They were describing the principle of convection as it applied to the movements of the earth and shifts in platetectonics and volcanism.

As I was watching this, half awake from my sleeping mat on the floor, I couldn't help but marvel at the Supreme Intelligence behind it all. I surely could not understand all the concepts they were talking about having no background in geography but yet because I accept that God is the active principle and intelligence behind all physical phenomena a little appreciation for the Lord came through. I was a little open to His revealing Himself in that way and He kindly showed a reflection of one fragmental portion of His spark of splendor in nature.

It then became obvious that what is needed to reach those who are truly engrossed in the field of geography, or any other of the natural sciences, is a devotee who understands that material science as well as the science of Krsna consciousness. He/she could explain Krsna consciousness to such people by taking advantage of their own intense interest in the subject. Such a devotee would have their ear as that devotee would be recognized as speaking their language

Teaching to the level and pyschological temperment already present in one's students is what teaching according to time place and circumstance is all about.

Spending energy and time trying to convince them they have to accept what they consider to be mythological stories about earth formation rather or not those stories are true is counterproductive. Counterproductive because afterall the goal is to expose Krsna's presence behind matter and exalt Him as the ultimate controller is the real point behind Krsna conscious teaching and not to get everyone to believe such stories.

I am hoping that devotees who are well trained in this and similar fields will not hold onto the fallacy that God realization and material science are two separate fields divorced from each other by their very constitutions but are in fact perfectly compatable because Krsna is equally accessable to the scientist as He is to the philosophers and religionists. He is afterall Omnipresent and Omniponent. All that is required is to be a little open to hHs presence and willingness to reveal Himself to us.

Grace is the basis of all our experiences. This may not be readily visible in the interim as we traverse through the experiences of the material world but from beggining to ending up at Krsna's lotus feet it's all grace. I say it's all grace because every hard knock we endure in the material field is meant to turn us to that adventual and glorious outcome.

I say beginning also because our very existence, our very being is a gift from the Lord. Did anyone here earn the right to exist before Krsna cause you?

The thought is absurd. We have so much to be thankful for.

If you had just read Crow and Tal Fruit Logic posted above I doubt you would have these questions.

One thing for sure,hopefully all can agree with is we are better advised to approach the Lord seeking mercy and grace rather then coming before Him trying to display our list of pious credits as an entrance fee into His favor.