theist

— "Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. " If someone has a meaning to this statement other than the obvious please present it.

Well Sarva we wil have to agree to disagree on many points while agreeing on others. No problem. I am certainly no ritvik which I often get mistaking for, much to my displeasure. One thing we can agree on is one is a disciple who follows the discipline. Without following the discipline there is no meaning to disciple. And that person is not me. So far in this life I am just someone whose curiousity about Krsna has lead my to accumulate some good sukriti ( for which I am thankful) and nothing more than that.

No that is not correct. It is mayavadi philosophy. Consciousness is a symptom of the spiritsoul. We are conscious of the conditon of our minds just like we are conscious of the conditions of our gross body. Their idea of liberation is to go beyond the mind and extinquish consciousness. The vaisnavas teach us that this is suicide. Mayavadis have a death wish and consider death as life. We all have mayavadi tendencies because we identify with the material bodies subtle and gross and are suffering but impersonal liberation or merging into the brahmajyoti is not an acceptable solution any more than killing the body in order to cure a headach is. Only the vaisnava knows what it really means to be alive.

The swan is a metaphor for someone who is only interested in taking the very essence of something will leaving behind that which is nonessential. Taken from a swan's eating habit of taking only the nectar from the stem of the lotus flower. That's all. Nothing to do with advaita.

No offense but your question needs some tweeking. There is no such thing as a "physical person." All persons are spiritsoul. You are talking of his human vehicle by which he made his presence known to us through our bodies senses. And the answer to that is of course. But if you ananlyze what is special about association with a pure devotee in this human form it always comes back to his vani. Even if you are sitting in the same room where he is lecturing about Krsna you are there to absorb his vani. Is that not correct. I don't discount thaat the mere presence of the pure devotee can be purifying but if we notice what Srila Prabhupada was always doing was speaking about Krsna and giving instructions about Krsna to those who found themselves in his presence. Once you stop seeing the spiritual master as a "physical person" it all becomes much clearer. I was in his presence a few times like in Ratha-yatras and Srimad Bhagavatam class so that association was in a general way though very special and personal to me. I have said on this forum many times that I lived in a temple for about six months in 1971 and left because the of several factors not the least being I was a crazy kid spaced out from all the LSD and could not handle the rigorous discipline. No I did not every take a formal intiation from Srila Prabhupada. Nor should I have seeing as I have never been able to keep up the proper practice of sadhana bhakti for more then a short period of time here and there. Srila Prabhupada is still a walking talking person. You must stop thinking of him as a human form that needs food water air and passing urine and stool and is subject to death. In those 12,000 posts I am sure you will never find one where I call myself a disciple of Srila Prabhupada either while he was here as vapuh or now purely as vani. I am certainly not qualified as anything resembling a disciple. I am just a general theist who accepts Lord Caitanya as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Unfortunately even while accepting on one level I remain envious on deeper levels. The transcendental devotee is potent because his teaching on Krsna are coming from the liberated platform and thus are transcendenbtal vibration. That is why they can not only liberate us from matter but can awaken love for krsna within us through the principle of resonance. There is no difference between the pure devotees spoken and written words. You may not care for that idea for some reason and that is your business. Perhaps you could give me a reason why what Srila Prabhupada told Paramahamsa in the quote below is incorrect. In those 12,000 posts I am sure you will never find one where I call myself a disciple of Srila Prabhupada either while he was here as vapuh or now purely as vani. I am certainly not qualified as anything resembling a disciple. I am just a general thesit who accepts Lord Caitanya as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Unfortunately even while accepting on one level I remain envious on deeper levels. Yes I am a CHEAP TALKER as you have so kindly pointed out. But I might remind you that hearing and speaking what one has heard is the center piece of the process of sadhana bhakti called sravanam kirtan. So talk is only cheap when it is sound vibration not associated with krsna consciousness or when using Krsna philosophy to pose as a devotee for cheap adoration.

Your wife may like an inversion table better than the boots. With a table you can control the angle and instead of being 180 degrees can be say 45 degrees and still obtain much benefit. Even a slant board leaned up on the side of the bed offers an extremely cheap and easy way to practice this and may be easier for her to take. Just a thought.

I diasagree.What IS shameful is having sex with your godsister who is married to your godbrother while simultaneously calling your self SDGosvami, wearing the dress of a sannyasi, posing as a sinless saint and indeed a spiritual master and even accepting worship and offerings as such while conducting this scam. I am not concerned with the acts of transgression that were commited between himself and this woman, that is none of my business but of the pretense of sitting on the vysasasana while this was going on. Calling charletons charletons for the benefit of the potential victims is everyone's duty.

I stopped reading after these offensive statements. Prabhupada's puports(vani) are of a lower gradation than his vapuh. What nonsense. The second line is just so much condemnation by cheap praise.

We should have harden hearts to falsehood and half truths. We should be critical and doubt that which is not true. We should even be critically considering the truth until we realize it for ourselves. Lack of critical thinking keeps the doors of the guru business open for business.

The difference Einstein is that the one and only Spiritual Professor lives within the heart of every living being. Not like your mundane school system. His campus is one of consciousness not a mundane location. If you think the "personal guru" is his physical form then it doesn't seem you have learned anything about spiritual life yet. Or particle physics either for that matter. Material particles are ever changing. The only particle that has any value is the atma which doesn't change. The awakened atma transmits his message through transcendental sound vibration. Transcendental sound vibration is not material sound dependent on vocal chords and ears alone. Transcendental can be coded into any language which carries it to the hearing. Is it beyond your intelligence to grasp that that same transcendental vibration can also be encoded in written language as well as spoken? s that really so difficult for you guys? You don't like it that others find guru in Prabhupada's purports. So who cares what you like. Better you mind your own business.

I refer you back to the quote I offered. That says it very clearly and I have better ways to waste my time then fielding all the questions and objections you may come up with. Take the quote at face value, or not, as you choose. I have no need to convince you of anything.

Circular logic. Hearing/reading the commentaries IS association. Please reread the conversation quote again. It IS associaiton not that it may ultimately lead to associaiton.

Don't let their confusion become your confusion. The term "living guru" is extremely offensive. It implies some guru's are dead. This is a fools conception. Guru is not the body that soul used to spread krsna consciousness anymore then the car he drove around in. Isn't the first lesson in the Bhagavad-gita that we are eternal spiritsoul and not subject to death? So is guru the only exception to this reality. We have to progress past this idea that Srila Prabhupada was an elderly Indian gentleman from Begal who walked with a cane. Yes honor the form he used. He form is fully spiritualized. But we have to understand Srila Prabhupada is not that form lying in his samadhi in Vrndavan. Just so no one thinks I am diminishing such rememberances when I was in Vrndavan attend the arotik there every evening and chanted the bulk of my rounds on the second floor. It is a sacred place but Srila Prabhupada is not lying there dead. a He is as he always was. We connect with the pure devotee and thus Krsna through the medium of transcendental sound vibration. Reading his commentaries is another form of hearing. Who in their right mind thinks this is not the sufficient to contact Krsna? We need to abandon this whole ecclesiastical guru scam. Ignore these people. Religiousity is nice but it ain't the real thing. To get to krsna we must adandon ALL varieries of religion. Let them have their baby Catholic church. Much sukriti will be spread and much good will be done but it will be mixed with all these other material conceptions. Presently most of us are just baby ducks waddling around and I am the ugly duckling to be sure. But the devotees are supreme swans. And the only way for us to experience the tranformation to swan status is to keep our eye on the swans and follow their path and this meaning ignoring the loud quacking of the ducks.

First of it devotee in his commentaries IS association as the quotes state. But beyond that of course if one wants to advance well in Krsna consciousness then he needs all forms of association. I don't know anybody that can just read all day. Here is the theing, at least as I see it. One can reading the commentaries of the acarya and still not really be associating with him beyond a certain level. I mean, look at those that had the most intimate (so-called) association with Srila Prabhupada and how they wasted no time in hijacking his Iskcon immediately after his body was no longer visible. What was the real depth level of their association? The river of bhakti is not only wide it is very deep. A river that is a mile wide but only an inch deep may look good from the shore but try to swim in it. Big surprise. Who knew it was that shallow 'eh. So someone can memeorize all the words, have been in those special places at the special times (like Matchless Gifts in 1967)know all the right devotees and that is all wonderful and a great blessing and that is the width but those blessing must be allowed to enter deep into the consciousness. What I am trying to say is there is association shallow and association deep. The depth of pure devotee association runs all the way to the source which is the toe of Krsna. And that is not diminished in commentary form.

For myself, I am fully satisifed with what is said above.

Well dicovering Krsna is a gradual process and in fact an eternal adventure being that Krsna is eternal and His qualities are ever unlimited and ever expanding. So how did I discover the maha-mantra or more precisely how did the mantra find me? It was late in 1970. I was becoming disillusioned with the so-called revolution and anti-war movement and especially the hippie counter culture. For me the shine faded quickly and what appeared to be beautiful and hopefull was quickly losing it's shine. There was a certain corner in the heart of the city where I always went to sell my underground anti-war, pro commie proaganda and hang out. One day I went there as usual only to find "my" corner occupied by the strange sight of the Hare Krsna's chanting. They had just arrived in town and my corner was a naturally preaching spot. I stayed around and watched listened for quite some time. I was attracted and had a lot of questions. I started going there over the next few days just to see and talk to these people again. About the third time as I stood opposite the kirtan line I started chanting along very quietly. And a moment later it occured to me thqat if I was going to chant too I may as well stand with them instead of a few feet away so I just joined the line with the four or five devotees. I happened to stand next to this one mataji who handed me a mantra card, repeated the mantra to me pointing to each name separately as she went and when finished she simply said, "Krsna is non-different from His names." That was a form of initiation for me and Krsnavilasini then became my vartmapradaksa (forgot the spelling) guru pointing the path out to me. It's been an internal roller coaster ride ever since. I had just dropped out of high school and I started going to this kirtan everyday. Some weeks later I found the temple and added the Sunday feast. I really couldn't follow the philosophy very well. More of a childlike attraction. Thank you Krsnavilasini. Please accept my obeisances.

Great link. I just went there and heard a wonderful Vishnujana bhajan. Thanks soul.

I did not get the impression that the professor was from Gaur Govindas camp.

I've been looking for that picture of the first SF Ratha yatra with Jayananda Prabhu and the Deities on that flat bed truck. Can't find it.

Actually the more I think about it the more I like the idea of a continous series of Ratha-yatras flowing one after another across the world.

Yes apparently these people think they own Lord Jagannatha. They will show him to the people or not at their discrection. They really take themselves way too seriously. Bt it appears Lord Jagannatha wants to roll around the world on His own time schedule. He may even want to start rolling in one city as He stops in another city and we may find the Lord on continually tour around the world 24/7 in this pastime.

And herein lies the deciding factor. If you want to woship God the Almighty then by all means worship Him as Narayana. You are to respected as a great vaisnava if you give your heart to Narayana. Others though are more attracted to the Supreme Lord in His feature as shown in Krsna-lila. It is a question of intimacy. Now the Krsna devotee may ask if Narayana is really Supreme to Krsna then why is the Krsna form more attractive? The Narayanite would say He is not more attractive as they are attracted to awe and reverence and where is the awe and reverence in Krsnalila. And thus the debate has little if any meaning. We will be pulled to the Lord by which ever one of His qualities attract us the most and base our theology around that.

Bravo Murali! The view is always better from the high road.

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