Rati

Is the issue chastity or sexism? Those extremist Islamic rules that force their women to suffer under those ridiculous outfits has no basis in religion, but are merely a tool to keep females in submission, and indicate the attitude that they are merely property. It is a return to the dark ages, plain and simple: another symptom of kali-yuga.

Your faith in the Goddess has never been in question, nor has your strong devotion to our friends the space aliens.

Its just my plan to infiltrate them and subtly turn them into zAktas. They will become my disciples in devotion to Durga. Jai Kali Ma!

Jazzananda Swami said: To impose your truth upon others, to develop dogmatic elaborate systems with hard-line rules and regulations (ALL RELIGIONS HAVE THEM) and a system for official belief is to dis-allow the freedom of discovery of 'Truth' in and of itself as an individual experience. Shakta Rati's response: Let's take jazz for example: The soloist has the rules of music theory down pat: He knows his scales and his thirteenth chords second nature, yet he breaks out into this free-form wild frenzy of a lick that seems to break all of the rules, but yet at the same time has an aesthetic quality that defies description. The practitioner advanced on the path of rAga-marga is like that jazz artist. His bhAva has moved him into this new space where none of the rules apply any longer. It seems that rAgAnugA bhakti fits the ideal that you are describing perfectly, whereas vaidhi bhakti seems to fall short. Just as the jazz mentor only brings the apprentice artist to the point of finding his own self expression, so the rAgAnugA guru merely guides the sAdhaka to his own personal bhAva, distinct from anyone else's bhAva. In the end all of your arguments actually support rAga-mArga, despite your efforts to undermine it. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-26-2002).]

Jijaji Jazzananda Swami: Its OK, amigo. Hey dude, where's my spaceship? Don't worry. Some of us are with you. Like yourself, we also pay homage to the master race from outer space (the same agents that planted that righteous weed you're tokin' on earth) and await the mass migration off planet when the time is ripe. Its not the earthlings fault that they turned the pure religion, as taught by the space aliens when they built the Sphinx ten millenia ago, into the tower of Babel of religions we see today. Everything will be made right and the faithful will get safe passage off of the planet when it gets over populated, too polluted to breathe and nuclear holocaust lays waste to the land. The void of outer space is the only truth. The void is everything (I mean nothing, actually). Hail the void! [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-26-2002).]

I remember seeing somewhere once the explanation that the 8.4 million species refers to levels of consciousness rather than distinct forms. Modern science has been constantly refining the definition of what is living. There have always been new gray areas, such as viruses and prions. The Vaishnava siddhAnta is that the paramAtmA resides in every atom, so based on that there is no question of actual inanimate matter, just certain objects that do no qualify as living organisms (in this sense organisms being single or multi-celled life forms of either the plant or animal kingdon). Is my keyboard that I am typing on a living being? Is the moss growing out on the tree in the back yard? It is not really that problematic, when you really think about it. I doubt you are going to be able to come up with any examples of living things mentioned in any scriptures (other than supernatural beings like gandhArvas, bhUtas, pretas, or pizAcas) that would be considered non-living by any modern scientists. An interesting question, however. The knowledge written down by ancient persons is not always easy to reconcile with what is more recent, especially when it comes to scientific discoveries and theories. What one tends to find, however, is that certain truths emerge that speak to us across the ages and do not lose their relevance over time. If that were not true, then the philosophical writings of Aristotle and Plato would no longer be read and discussed, and there would be no continuity of any religious faith, just new ones being invented with each new generation. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-26-2002).]

quote: -- Originally posted by Rati: I never thought I personally was the living proof of anything. Just because I never took up the practice of lila smaran and only really have experience with japa meditation does not preclude me from ever successfully taking it up in the future. The jijmeister> Yes I have heard this before as well from those who have taken diksha but do not have much of a practice i.e. jij-o-rama>"Well I have that connection and can always take it up later" gee-oh-gee> That just makes my point regarding belonging to a certain line/group etc as a replacement for realization. I think Jijacarya has me confused with someone else. None of my own diksa or siksa gurus gave any instructions on lila smarana practice, just on chanting mantras. I have heard about it from other individuals and read about it in various places. It just seems to me like the way to go to really make advancement, but then again that is just my own personal opinion. It may not be shared by everyone else, however. Some hipsters may like to mix bhajan w/rock n roll, which is cool as well. I heard recordings of songs done by Visnujana Swami years ago that are very much a fusion of Bengali kirtan songs w/a strong rock influence, enough to make one swoon. Hey, you could even perform disco kirtan to inspire people to dance up a storm. Looks like the jijAnanda bumped into a bunch of people that were unable to adhere to whatever practice it was they took to and were inititated into. I guess that just demonstrates that it requires some effort and maybe even some struggle to have any staying power, and is not just a matter of wishful thinking: Many steps along the way, which only we can take. What is really hard to understand is the mentality that teachers are unable to help in any way. I thought that was the nature of teaching: That someone has some knowledge to impart to someone else who does not. If that were not the case, then why would someone have to go to all those years of medical school to be considered qualified to practice medicine?

In essence the Amish are devotees of the Mother Goddess. They just do not know it yet. Kali Ma Ki Jai!

The yuga dharma is to always remember our Divine Mother. Kali Ma Ki Jai!

The answers to all questions can be found in the Devi-bhagavata Purana. Kali Ma Ji Jai!

Every year during Durga Puja, the Vaishnavas in Bengal come out in large numbers to reveal their true colors: As devotees of the Mother Goddess. If you don't believe it, go and see for youself! Kali Ma Ki Jai!

In the words of Seinfeldacarya: "Who ARE these PEOPLE?"

The group dynamic in religion is an interesting topic. Consider the rituals that involve group participation. They are by and large ceremonies either for rites of passage or for sacrifices to the gods (or God). Take any person for example and chances are that person follows whatever religion was passed down in her/his family. Yes, there are the rare adventurous souls that investigate other traditions, but they are hardly the norm. The religious institutions and the women and men of the cloth that run them have their own group dynamic, yet they are part of the same community as their congregation (unless they truly are monastics walled up and isolated). The average person may practice to the point of little bit of prayer (big in the West) or brief meditation (big in the East) and attending whatever congregational activities periodically occur, but makes little study of finer points of theology. The type or politicking that tends to occur, wherein doctrine is debated and propagated, occurs in its own arena - that of those movers and shakers that either emerge as religious leaders or fall into step behind the leaders. No doubt ethical standards in any society are very much shaped by religious beliefs. The golden rule ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you") is found in virtually every religion as the main guiding ethical principle. The bhakti traditions are comprised of aspects with mass appeal as well as those that appeal only to the highly devoted few. The same group dynamics will still be found, despite the finder points of doctrine that set those traditions apart. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-26-2002).]

Jijaji is just waiting to be beamed up to the mother ship and wants to get everyone else ready for the same thing.

A true confessions thread. What fun! I have to admit that I found trying to live in India virtually impossible, even though I felt the power of the holy places and had a strong desire to remain there. That is no doubt my being cast out from those places on account of not being fit to reside there. Due to being bewildered by maya, I just rationalized it as the austere conditions and the health problems that resulted (mostly allergies in my case - although I saw a bunch of Americans contract malaria).

Of course many may gravitate to the path of bhakti for the wrong reasons. However, they are bound to derive the benefits, nonetheless. Does the zAstra not state that even if one inadvertantly chants the holy name, and even if one does so unknowingly, that it still purifies that person? So the tourist driving in his car that says, "Oh look, there's a Ramada Inn", is in fact making spiritual advancement. No complex process or rituals involved there.

I never thought I personally was the living proof of anything. Just because I never took up the practice of lila smaran and only really have experience with japa meditation does not preclude me from ever successfully taking it up in the future. If I had attempted it and it turned out to be too difficult, then perhaps that might have proven something. That is still all a bunch of hypotheticals: If this, if that. Besides, who has ever advocated raganuga bhajan for the masses? Nobody I have ever heard of. Rup, Sanatan, Jiv or Visvanath propagated harinam sankirton for the masses, but never the esoteric practices, nor have any recent Gaudiya gurus. You waste time arguing against persons that do not even exist. OK, if you want to spend your time that way, that's cool with us. As far as your comments about repression of women, that was as rampant (if not more so) in the West as it has been in the East. It may not seem that way, only because the women's movement that began with the struggle for the right to vote in America got under way here first and now is fairly new in India. But, you will have to admit that progress has been made in India. Most women work outside the home, which is not so commonplace in the Arab countries. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-25-2002).]

Write to me at: mtcorp@attbi.com

This mentions fossil evidence 3.6 million years old: http://www.sciam.com/explorations/121696explorations.html

This site dates the first humans (although not homo sapiens) at 3 million B.C. http://members.aol.com/Donnpages/EarlyMan.html

This URL gives an estimate of 200,000 to 300,000 years ago. http://park.org/Canada/Museum/man/sapiens.html

I searched a couple websites that put the estimates for the appearnce of homo sapiens at 130,000 years ago. I thought I read about other earlier estimates recently made by paleontologists. Anyone have any info. on this? [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-25-2002).]

So, since you're that close to India (a fairly inexpensive plane ticket), why not travel there in the near future to seek out the assocation you desire? Just a thought.