Rati

Not only was there jungle in Mahaprabhu's time, Raga, but Radha Kund itself was a swamp where many dangerous crocodiles were living. There was considerable effort required to make it a place even possible to visit by pilgrims, let alone habitable. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-04-2002).]

Just one more comment about sanitation worldwide. The USA and parts of Europe have developed some very high public health standards, but when you are speaking of countries in Aftrica that are very poor (and India no doubt lies somewhere in between), they are lucky to avoid hideous diseases like river blindness. Also even in the hi-tech countries, the standards for clean air and water are constantly evolving and being revised. Asbestos, for example, was not considered to be dangerous a few decades ago, and was quite ubiquitous in many building construction materials for its fire proof properties. One statistic that often hits the news media in the USA is that most cases of food poisoning occur in household kitchens from poor handling of raw ingredients and not washing everything with soap and water as needed. Are Vaishnava kitchens immune? I remember one incident in the Boston ISKCON temple where several devotees became violently ill from something they ate.

Although his intentions are noble, I do not think his arguments are very convincing. Those programs are really more group therapy than religion or philosophy. If they help the people involved, then no harm done. They are not really meant to be a replacement for church or temple in the first place. I know I may seem to be playing Devil's advocate here, but sometimes preachers of our movement tend to get carried away with the mind/body dichotomy. Sure, twelve step programs my not be as effective as chanting harinam in treating alcoholism, but they do have a pretty good track record. Are we going to attract people to the movement by belittling those programs and similar ones? Maybe and maybe not. They might just get the impression that we are playing the 'holier than thou' card again, and then the opposite effect will be obtained.

Pete1: Your assessment is not entirely accurate. You are seeing the most vocal few that are active on the internet in debating opponents from rival groups, but the other ninety percent rarely (if ever) even think about what others are up to or bother criticizing. There is also little or no interaction between rival factions. There tends to be considerable infighting within any one group, however. That is to be expected with any community, kind of like the typical dysfunctional family. ISKCON for one has had its fair share over the past three decades, and the parent organization, Gaudiya Math had such severe quarreling that the founder of ISKCON felt compelled to begin his own separate institution. What some of us here are attempting to do is open up some dialogue between rival factions with a vision of unity. That has unfortunately proven to be a formidable undertaking. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-04-2002).]

We can now throw global warming into the mix. Will the dhama be underwater in the next fifty years, should the trend continue? The Bush administration has finally admitted that the problem is real (in case you have not seen today's news stories), but has no plans to curb industry's air pollution. How much longer will world leaders shy away from addressing the threats to planet earth?

Italians love their garlic, as everyone well knows. However, they end the meal with a shot of anise liqueur to remove the foul garlic breath. Better keep a few cloves handy, in case Dracula moves into your neighborhood. Heck, even HE can't stand the smell of the stuff. We sometimes sprinkle it in powdered form in the garden to keep the rabbits from eating the flowers, but never considered ingesting the stuff. After all, you are not supposed to offer it to the Deities. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-03-2002).]

In the painting in question, there appears to be no body part of the lady revealed, and the cloth is obviously being used to shade the bhakta from the rays of the sun overhead. So, the question was raised by seeing something that was neither depicted nor intended, unless I am missing something due to the poor quality of the bitmap image.

In the painting in question, there appears to be no body part of the lady revealed, and the cloth is obviously being used to shade the bhakta from the rays of the sun overhead. So, the question was raised by seeing something that was neither depicted nor intended, unless I am missing something due to the poor quality of the bitmap image.

It seems to me that ISKCON has always had much deeper pockets (maybe not so deep now with their mounting legal fees and bankruptcy proceedings) to take care of sanitation at Radha Kund than any other Gaudiya group. If the infrastructure is not sound, then why have they not acted? Sectarian blinders on, perhaps? I am sure the costs we are talking about are mere pocket change to them. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-03-2002).]

Krishnas tu bhagavan svayam Ji: I apologize if I have somehow offended you or your line. It is my understanding that we are following Rupa Goswami, hence the term Rupanuga. Did not ACBS Srila Prabhupada himself state when he gave the babaji vesh initiation to Oudoulomi Das that the Vaishnava always wears white? I do not think I was hallucinating when I heard the statement first hand. Anyways, yes there were associates of Mahaprabhu as well that were in the sannyasa order that wore saffron, but the precedent was set by the six Goswamis and followed up until Bhaktisiddhanta's time. That is simply an historical fact, nothing more or less. We can go around in circles indefinitely and ad infinitum over this issue, and never reach any agreement. So, perhaps it is just best to agree to disagree, don't you think? For some reason, these things keep getting rehashed on the internet, and it is always the same arguments put forth. Time to move on.

On important consideration that some people seem to miss entirely is the fact that in ancient times the population worldwide not only was much tinier, but was situated mainly in rural areas. Also the urban centers were far smaller than our current ones. Hence, what might have worked well under those circumstances will not necessarily be practical or feasible today. As far as any archaeological evidence to indicate the sanitation arrangements, we have the buildings with the indoor plumbing excavated at the various Indus Valley civilization sites, but anything to substantiate the use of fields as outdoor latrines would have to be potsherds at best. Perhaps our amatueur paleontologists have something to add on this. Another point that has already been raised is the impracticality of outdoor facilities in colder climates. When you started getting up near the arctic circle, you're talking danger of frostbite and water freezing before you can even pour it out of your lota to wash yourself. Sorry for the graphic detail, JN Das, but if we are to address the Radha Kund situation that BVI is concerned about, we need to consider all aspects and options. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-03-2002).]

I want to see one of those cutting edge organic sewage treatment plants built, as well as a respectable infrastructure that includes medical facilites, phone lines, decent electric power, etc. This does not need to encroach on the area immediately surrounding the two kunds, however, in fact it shouldn't. Also, since the crowds get quite huge at certain festival times, there should be a separate bathing gath built nearby for pilgrims, and a little Radha Kund jal can be added to it. That way the kund itself is not overtaxed with bathers. I agree with BVI that any measure that can improve conditions in any of the holy places should be a top priority, but I think they should be sensible and practical as well. The picture of those tens of thousands of pilgrims trying to find a place to go potty in some field is not a pretty one. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-03-2002).]

So, BVI claims to have the low down on 'Vedic' systems of sewage. Curious that he thinks that stool fields were the norm, when in fact the Harappan sites all have indoor plumbing, like our modern system. He spreads his propaganda, which is very anti-technology, but what he offers us in return is some organic 'let nature take its course' methodology, that in the past was responsible for horrific infant mortality rates and water borne diseases. I will respect JN Das's wishes and not insult the man's intelligence, and only deal with his theories. For one, modern sewage treatment plants purify the water to the point that you can actually drink it safely. There are also even cutting edge plants that utilize bacteria instead of chemicals (so they obviously do not violate BVI's 'Vedic' principles). It is only reasonable to assert that the problem in India is lack of infrastructure as we take it for granted in the West. I would be curious to know BVI's 'Vedic' solution to the malaria problem. In case anyone is not aware, the disease has killed many times more people than actual fighting in all of the wars fought in written history. If he thinks he has some model to demonstrate the waste management as he describes it that actually does work, that would be interesting. However, some small community like Mayapura ISKCON is hardly the same as some large metropolitan area, neither population wise nor logistically. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-02-2002).] [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-02-2002).]

There is one thing that always reminds me of India: Whenever I visit the zoo and my nose is assaulted by the overpowering stench of animal manure. If BVI had his way, we could all enjoy that 'lovely' experience 24/7 worldwide. But then what do I know? Perhaps he is the acharya of waste management waiting to be recognized for his self-effulgence.

BVI, perhaps the best solution is the approach they have taken in other parts of the world with respect to ancient archaeological sites: Only allowing people in on guided tours and not allowing anyone to reside on the actual site. Of course, that might upset your friends the Brajabasis when they have to find somewhere else nearby to live. I personally do not have a problem with such restrictions, for it still gives the devotees the opportunity to spend their waking hours on the site for bhajan, and having to hike it to a WC is an inconvenience we can all live with.

Looks like they have you over a barrel on the Brajbasi side of the equation, BVI. I am sure you are correct about the majority of the residents born in the dhAma (or at least a third of them - don't really know), but what about those that make dacoit their occupation? We are supposed to respect the monkeys too, but they have been known to attack sAdhus sitting peacefully and taking kRSNa prasAda and biting them in the jugular vein (an obvious attempt to kill the humans for food). A little bit of information on septic tanks, for the plumbing impaired. When properly designed, they hold waste in a tank and have a septic field overhead. In the USA they are by law to be installed a safe distance from any wells. The tanks are maintained by a service that empties them periodically. Seems like quite an improvement over stool fields where the waste is lying out in the open and liable to be spread around with each heavy rain, spreading cholera and other nastiness. Obviously the type of sewers with pipes (actually used in anient Egypt) are superior, but far more costly to build and maintain. Your vision of plumbing free outhouses or open latrines (whatever your technologically impaired mind has concocted) is a throwback to horrible times and a prescription for hell on earth, BVI. I suppose you keep a small herd of those scrawny Vrindavan hogs to follow you around and tidy up whenever you feel a call to nature. Hah! [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-02-2002).]

Just one brief comment: You are not really being honest, krishnas (whoever you really are), if you maintain that the 'Sarasvata' line is not something new and different. Just because it borrowed from traditions outside the one started by Mahaprabhu Sri Caitanya, in order to incorporate those vestiges of varnashrama that the six Goswamis discarded long ago, does not mean that it should not be considered a reformist sub-movement of the main movement. Of course YOU are going to be the reactionary when it comes to that point (and NOT Raga), and cry 'foul', even though pointing that out is hardly an indictment, just a statement of fact. I am also not in the line of Lalita Prasad, so cannot claim any membership in the LP club (unless of course they are handing out free CDs ). [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-02-2002).]

For female attendants, you can also call the Rati Escort Service: 1-800-4SAHAJA. With our service, you get 15% discount coupons for Ragababa siddha dehas, and all rasik paraphernalia, including rental kunds with jacuzzi jets. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-01-2002).]

There are really three different objectives in inter-faith dialogue. Whether or not they are mutually exclusive is a matter of opinion. 1) To gain respect for one's own faith and erdicate persecution by those of other faiths. 2) To win converts. 3) To broaden one's own and others' horizons. Someone may have one, two or all of these goals in mind. Also, there may be others I have not listed above, but I think these are the main ones. We can either take a lot of baggage (in the form of prejudices and pre-programmed attitudes) to such discussions, or we can leave it behind. Do different religions actually have different purposes? Don't they all pretty much deal with the same material: Rites of passage, the afterlife, a Supreme Being, the nature of the soul, codes of ethics, etc.? Don't they all have practitioners at various levels of piety and realization? Perhaps we need to re-title this thread. How about "The Variety of Religious Expression" or "World Religions 101"?

Mythology can be analyzed in various ways. I really do not have the time right now, but if anyone wants to look at the Puranas from the standpoint of the work of Joseph Campbell and others, that could be very interesting. Several years ago I attended a one day seminar on the Magician figure given by Robert Moore (a leader of the men's movement along with Robert Blye) in which he discussed how mythical archetypes are literally hardwired into our biology. Was an interesting lecture, although the group participation event at the end was kind of flaky (no smoking of peace pipes or native American sweat lodges - nothing that exotic - just kind of lame). [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 05-31-2002).]

Typical. What can I say? Legal threats. What next? Sending over some goons to rough them up? Taking hostages? Suicide bombers? Where does it end?

You can do all the comparative studies you want, but ultimately people generally to whatever faith they were born into and raised in. Those that venture far afield are a very small percentage. Many Americans take classes in haTha yoga (currently a very hot trend), but remain Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, etc. I do not see that it is a question of multiple purposes, but certainly there is a variegated array of faiths, and studying the common patterns as well as the unique features of them is a fascinating endeavor. Hopefully those who have the time and inclination (I would like to get more involved, but my schedule does not allow) will provide some interesting material along these lines (there are sources aplenty in the existing body of literature and new insights built on those should be even more interesting).

In many parts of India, Christian missionaries use the approach of converting one family member, then getting that person to go into the homes of relatives and smash the Deities. So much for respecting the faith of others. And we wonder why the Hindus want to throw them out of the country.

Here's one thing you can do to respond to rude behavior: Tell them there is a spot on their shirt, and when they look down to see, quickly swing your index finger up and catch them under their nose and say, "Gotcha!" (Of course wash your hand afterwards). [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 05-20-2002).]

Happy Jahnava Thakurani's appearance day to one and all! May we all obtain Her blessings on this most auspicious of days.