Rati

There are always the Shree Sampradaya devotees, who have built many nice temples in the West. They are very courteous to and affectionate towards Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Also, you won't have to listen to anti-Rtvik rhetoric or be given the third degree about who your guru is. Just remember to be respectful towards their beliefs, which are not all the same as ours.

There are some discussions on this topic going on in some of the other devotee boards on the net. One of the points that was brought up about VAD is that it is just adding another layer of false material identification that will just interfere with the development of one's bhakti. Another point was that, although it may seem good 'on paper', practically speaking it is never going to gain acceptance in today's world. You might be able to implement it on some small farm with a hundred or so devotees, but to even conceive of propagating it in society at large (whether we are talking about India or America or Australia) is basically a pie in the sky pipe dream. Someone even remarked that it could involve nama-aparadha for those who consider it as important as chanting the holy names. Better to focus on the essentials, like kirtan and puja and lila smaran (for those so inclined) and, as Jagat always says, try to just be better human beings and cultivate respect for others (whether Vaishnava or non-Vaishnava, but ESPECIALLY Vaishnavas). ys - Rati

atma: So you think that the dentistry over there is excellent? I find that hard to believe. My sister is a dental hygienist that has quite a few Indian patients. Just about all of them have advanced gum disease, even those that are only in their early twenties. That is not true for the Indian Americans that have been seeing American dentists their whole lives. I have discussed the issue of the practice of dentistry outside America with my own dentist (who is quite good at what he does) and apparently the only other country that has standards that even come close is Switzerland. This was surprising to hear, as I thought at least Canada would be about the same.

You are correct about that as far as the modern definition of a science, which includes verification of experimental results by empirical methods. Does it need to be an actual science to be a useful tool? - hardly If you look at the track record of the Hindu system you will be impressed, but if you look at the Western system with its bogus tropical zodiac and totally wrong positions of planets, you will only be disappointed. Here is something anyone can do at home - get a chart of gold and silver futures prices from the two big bull markets from the 1970s and 1980s. Get out your sidereal ephemeris (you must correct with the ayanamsha for those dates, if you only have a Western tropical ephemeris handy). Now see how the prices took off right after Saturn entered a sign owned by Mercury and how the top of the market was on the very day that Saturn went retrograde. After you have done that, now stand there tell me that there is no validity to astrology.

Retiring to India could work, provided you have the finances to travel to Europe or America whenever you need medical or dental attention. The thought of putting one's health in the hands of whatever medieval facitilies are over there is quite frightening.

Your concern is appreciated and not to worry - it is not lost on me (although I have not been to Radha Kund in many, many years, so could not speak authoritatively one way or the other). However, that topic was already discussed on a thread that JN Das closed down. This topic is on your idea of Vedic sanitation and how it is ever going to be workable with the current world population literally bursting at the seams. So, please respond to that, if you think you have it all solved. sevak - Rati [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-11-2002).]

I was not actually commenting on the merits of the daiva-varnashram concept, which should be self-evident. I was reflecting on the practical application of the principles according to current time and circumstances here in the West. Perhaps you were not responding to my earlier post, but to someone else's comments. It is really impossible for me to tell, without reading back through the whole thread, which I do not have time for at the moment.

Don't fret Ram. I am sure we can pull together that business proposal we have been discussing. It might be a little rough in the beginning, but the going should get easier in the near future as the U.S. economy springs back (as it always does). Radharani provides, as long as She sees that we are part of Her group.

Hey Pita das Ji! Hari Bol! Did not know you were here. Send me your latest email address to mtcorp@attbi.com. I do not want to reveal my real name here (I enjoy posting anonymously) - but did want to get caught up, as we have not exchanged emails for over a year now (I think maybe even two years).

Hi Ram. Where have you been? I sent you an email over the weekend, but no reply. Hope all is well with you. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-10-2002).]

Perhaps we just need to ladies to keep the men in line and well behaved.

I recall an incident that I witnessed at Krishna Balaram Mandir at Raman Reti in 1976, when I served there as a pujari. One morning after the snana-seva puja, the head pujari (N Das) came over to the Gaura Nitai (GP Das) pujari to give some instruction. N Das felt that GP Das had improperly dried off Their Lordships with the towel by starting at the feet and working upwards. GP Das felt that since the arotik articles are offered starting at the feet first, that he should serve in that manner, with humility starting at the Lotus Feet. N Das asserted that since GP Das would dry his own body off starting with the head and working downwards, he should do the same for the Deities. GP Das asserted that because the Lords' bodies are divine, there should be no consideration of what would apply here on earth. Was one of them right and the other one wrong, or were they both right on account of their intentions being pure - it was all for the seva and not for personal gain? When seeing arguments between devotees, we should not just sit in judgment and view them as merely quarrelsome, especially when the motives are purely bhakti-related. Otherwise, we risk commiting Vaishnava-aparAdha in mind or words or deed. It is quite possible to disagree on points of siddhAnta or practice without losing respect for one's opponent. Even professional athletes in the boxing ring maintain friendship and respect for the guy that they intend to knock the daylights out of in the ring. So, why should that be difficult for those that are supposed to be situated in zuddha-sattva-guNa? Any suggestions how we can improve relations between factions here? ys- Rati [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-10-2002).]

Yes, however I think we were discussing the idea of institution varnrashram in a purer form worldwide - or did I miss something? It is kind of walking a fine line, IMHO, between being aloof from the material world and focussing on spiritual advancement and getting actively involved in any kind of politics, without losing one's suddha-sattva platform. Look at the example of those siddha mahatmas that would not even handle money or take prasad that was financed by materially motivated persons (caste Hindus even). Then again, we must be pragmatic. Something of the magnitude of a varnashram system is going to require massive planning and maharaja scale resources, if it is ever to be ported from the small agrarian community to the world at large. It is also not likely to be done in one step, but rather phased in gradually - after all people grouped in organizational hierarchies have this inherent inertia and resist any kind of change to the status quo. Just some thoughts. I really have not pondered the details as of yet - rather just reflected upon the subject abstractly.

There is a book I have heard of entitled "Free Agent Nation". I have not read it yet, but it could be good. If you can freelance and work from home, you are much better off and can set your own hours and time off without dealing with some top heavy bureacracy.

What ever happened to the eight hour work day and the two day weekend standard in corporate America? I know that the Europeans only worked thirty hour weeks and had several weeks of paid vacation instead of the standard 2 and 3 after five years of service, etc. I wonder if they still have that relaxed pace. This is just another device of corporate greed - to get employees to put in the longer hours at reduced pay and at the expense of their personal lives. It is starting to come back to haunt some of them already, with lawsuits pouring into the courts over unpaid overtime. I say it serves them right for exploiting the workers and padding their pockets with millions in the process. Capitalism has its benefits, no doubt, but it also has its dark side. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-07-2002).]

I think we need to start with an overhaul of the whole political machine (at least here in the USA) first, then maybe we can think about how to introduce such a lofty utopian system. There has been this move to control campaign contributions, ostensibly to curb the tide of corruption, however, the problems run much deeper than that. There is this whole miasma of special interest groups and political action committees controlling the elected representatives via the purse strings. I do not advocate a Marxist overthrow of the leaders, since we saw how badly that went in Czarist Russia, rather a cleaning of house working within the system. Not such an easy task, by a long shot, but worth striving for. I use to have good health insurance when working for the big fat cat corporations, but now that I own a small business I have had nothing but trouble getting coverage on an individual policy and currently am stuck on a horrible HMO and its insidious bureacracy. Clinton said he was going to address the whole health care mess, but those good intentions quickly fell by the wayside in his first term in office. Now many state governments are severely in the red, which only is portentous for the already crumbling infrastructure. Wars have generally been good for the economy in the past, but this current campaign against Al Qaeda (don't get me wrong - I am fully behind Bush's efforts on the military front - just skeptial of his stance on the environment) has yet to show any positive effects along those lines. What else can we do for now but focus on our own bhajan and pray that we don't get nuked in the near future?

Au contraire - I was not comparing the dhAma to anything else. There have been statements that have referred specifically to Braj Mandal and statements about the global situation planet wide. This thread tends to drift around a bit, as they all do around here. I do not have a problem with that. Yes, the dhAma is special (we all are acquainted with the theology), but it is also affected by macrocosmic events, like a huge influx of pilgrims from outside, at least as far as the material conditions we are presented with when we visit there. At any rate, I think we are in agreement about those with the resources and what they should be doing to address the problem. If I were a Bill Gates, which I most certainly am not, then I could personally contribute the funds needed - and most certainly would without a moment's hesitation. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-05-2002).]

Here's one Srila Prabhupada would no doubt have enjoyed: The ongoing problems with toilets on the space shuttle, due to the weightless conditions. Should we just view our planet in the same context as some closed system like a spacecraft? Is it merely a matter of recycling of waste, or should we be relying on the forces of nature as BVI suggests? I personally think a much worse problem than sewage facing us globally is that of garbage that keeps mounting daily. All of that packaging being discarded is really quite absurd. What our hi-tech society needs to do is either come up with some materials that are quickly biodegradable or an efficent and cost effective means of reuse. Plus we as consumers are forced to pay more for shrink wrap around our CDs that are already neatly packaged in their plastic jewel cases. When will the insanity stop?

It was not actually meant as a criticism. Even if he is right (and I have not reason to believe he is not), it is a question of what is accomplished in actuality by such an approach. There is such a thing as diplomacy. My point is that preachers might want to develop some to add a little panache to their lectures and dialogues.

I just have one question for you: If Bhaktisiddhanta was right about the need for varnashram, then why did not the six Goswamis express that? It appears that the sankirtan movement was founded on a principle of breaking out of that mold, unless I am somehow missing something. Besides, to think that such a system is ever going to be acceptible in the West is quite a stretch. If you overlay it on the existing capitalistic representative form of government, then you are going to end up with something quite different - but then it might actually be tenable. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Ram: I understand your point. There is much that can be problematic when considering the sankirtan movement and that which came before. Should we be concerned about continuity as all important? If our faith is that Rupa, etc. were manifesting some new revelations, then we may not feel the need to corroborate those with scriptural pramana. Just some thoughts to ponder.

I believe they are actually crocodiles in that part of the world (different from alligators). The question arises: Are they encroaching our territory or we on theirs? Did Radharani gather them their to guard her kund?

I am surprised that you are being so pedantic on this subject, Ram. Is it not enough that recognized Gaudiya acharyas instituted and propagated the practice of siddha pranali?

PETA does some good work, no doubt. When devotees told Srila Prabhupada that they did not like using refined white sugar because sometimes charred beef bones are used in the processing, his reply (supposedly) was, "Everything in kali yuga is contaminated, so we just make do and offer to kRSNa."

Heck, I've seen plenty of corporate offices in the USA over the past ten years with appalling filth in the rest rooms. I won't even mention the facilities in gas stations across the land. The problem is hardly indigenous to India, my friend. Vishnu maintains & Vaishnavas are supposed to leave a place cleaner than they found it. [This message has been edited by Rati (edited 06-05-2002).]