Janus

Jesus of Nazareth, having been persecuted by his primitive society for the crime of being ‘different’ and for the crime of questioning ‘authority’, became very sensitive to injustice. This is reflected in his world view and, because of his thoughtful responses to his experiences, we have a great deal to learn from him. This should not blind us to the reality that he was living in a much simpler and less knowledgeable society. Thus as he was limited to express himself in accordance with time, place and the capacity of his listeners to understand him, he could not express himself with the clarity of which we are now capable of, and neither could Srila Prabhupada, as he also was limited in his presentation aparently by the levels of intelligence and purity of his listeners, which you viewed appropriately in one of your comments as being so immature that we are still suffering today from their premature commitment to oaths that they would have to keep for their entire lifetimes if they were to be truthful to their commitmant. I liked also the point that you made that one must actually realize, or come to the position of an actual knowledge of the absolute truths that one is iterating rather than just contenting oneself with the occupation of a parrot and repeating the words that one has heard. The comparison is meant to illustrate that a human beings conceptual understanding of the Krsna conscious philosophy has in fact no more actual understanding of the points that the words are making than a bird has of the words that it is parroting or repeating. Bhaktivinode Thakur, who I notice that you are so found of went so far as to say that the words being repeated by a conditioned soul are never true, even if they are the exact same words being pronounced by a liberated living entity. Thus the words are not the things which they are referring to, or they are the things. This statement follows the Thakurs comment that the words uttered by a liberated Vaisnava are always true, meaning that they are transcendental, meaning that they are not the symbols for the things but that they are the things and thus that they are the absolute truth. In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus speaks of this and of their transformative nature when he says that " Those who drink from my mouth shall become as I, and that I shall become them." This supports another point that you were making, that one must become transformed oneself, that one must become guru, although I liked the way that you said it much better and was wondering if you would re-post it. I originally intended this to be only a letter but it would be hiding your light under a bushel to keep such lofty spiritual insights as your posts give the example of your possessing just to myself and since the forum manager has invited you to start a new topic with the suggestion being that if a new topic is begun that he will not delete it's posts regarding spiritual matters, even if they happen to be the exact same ones that were posted on the dharma mela thread were deleted, perhaps he will make good his promise and then your light will shine out for all to see. We must learn to build upon what they understood and taught, not just cling to their expressions as to a dogma, for to do so would deaden them. Hari bol [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 01-25-2002).]

Should Mayavadi, impersonalists be banned? I don't know. Show me someone who does not concieve of themselves as a person who posts upon these forums and I might consider the question. As it is though most of us are contaminated with impersonalist doctrines due to our conditioning. For instance all of us are conditioned with the predominant view of reality which posits that we are no more than atoms and molecules, that we have no essential essential identities, that we have no souls. What could be more impersonal than this? The Mayavadis posit that there is no individuality on the spiritual level, but the materialists whose world view forms a portion of our ego identities posit that there is no paramarthic level. Our social and economic theories, the ways in which we see ourselves and realte to each other, the culture of estrangement that is present everywhere all reflect the subtle influences of the poison that we have imbibed from this demoniac world view. Hari bol

The madhyama-adhikArI therefore being compassionate Gives mercy to the innocent souls by awakening devotion in them. The Supreme Lord acts according to the will of the VaiSNavas, Therefore by the mercy of the VaiSNavas the bewildered can be awakened. 20. The VaiSNavas can awaken the sleeping world By their mercy the sinful can all become devotees. Therefore they do not perform nirjana bhajana, That is the world cheating process of the kaniSTha-adhikArI "All we are is dust in the wind." Same old song, an eternal a lament, a consumate sadness. From the topmost planetary system down to the lowest... all we are is dust in the wind. And so they come down to us, ther mercy givers. Perhaps the cuxification isn't death for them, perhaps it is birth, birth in the material world, for what is the pain an iron tipped frail, or nails hammered mercilessly through the flesh to that of separation from Krsna? Who can understand them? If we can but once say the name of Hari with the love, if we can but once in truth bow down in full surrender, but there is so much distraction, so many other things that spark our interest. Perhaps after all there is some enjoyment to be found here, some place of refuge, some eternal love, some absolute kin, but all that it is is the same old song...all is vanity and vexation of spirit, and all we are are bubbles in the foam, dust in the wind. What I considered to be remarkable, one thing, is the knowledge of quantum physics implied in the Early Prabhupada, before what is now known was even discovered, even pondered. What do they know then, these pure devotees of Krsna? What does Krsna know? Srila Prabhupada said that Krsna was directing his writing, that he only supplied the hand. Our eyes run back and forth across the pages but what do they see? Prabhupada said that everything was there, everything. His writings are interactive, alive, they see you. Krsna reveals Himself through them through the mercy of his pure devotee. In recent years some have made the comment that Srila Prabhupadas writings are limited, to basic to justify their abandonment of them for the writings of others, as if that which was written down by the pure devotee of Krsna under Krsna's direction is exhaustable, that it only has so much and nothing at all more. But Prabhupada said that everything is there for every level of advancement. So why do they come down to us? This transcendental service cannot actually be tasted by those who are not VaiSNavas. In the material body one cannot relish this transcendental nectar. One who has the material concept that the body is his self Cannot relish spiritual mellows Because we have never tasted. Have you ever tasted parbhus? Did your guru give you a taste, do you you remember? If you have ever tasted then when you look at the teaming masses of humanity all around you who have never tasted, who have never relished, who walk in darkness, who live in darkness and who die in darkness and then go down, how can you not feel happiness knowing that you are part of Mahaprabhu's mission to give them real and eternal life, to bring them up from and out of the darkness? "Oh, they are to obstinant. Oh, they aren't much interested. Oh they are so fallen." The preaching is the life. You are dust, but you are dust driven before the wind, borne upon the breath of Krsna's Holy name, God's living breath. We are beyond measurement for your momentum is that of more than a hurricane. The only limitations that you have are those that are self imposed as everyone of you have through the mercy of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga incalcuable potential and the ability to realize that potential. There is thus no estimate of your ability other than it is amazing, no appreciation of you fine enough, no garments fitting enough, no chair or seat high enough to give but the barest indicaation of your office "as good as God", and yet you don't believe it, that you are anything but dust. I know better however, you are devotees, ajita, unconcorable. Why lay you down then in such abject posture as if in defeat? [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 01-17-2002).]

Like the froth on the sea water mixes again in the sea,MAyA's saMsAra's play is just like that. No one is mother or father, or personal relative,Just like the sea-foam they remain but a short time, Just as the froth on sea water mixes again in the sea, The body made of five elements meets with destruction. How many bodies does the embodied soul take in this way; His relatives are all simply related to this temporal body. All glories to Srila Prabhupada Poetic, but is it more than poetic? To John A. Wheeler, quantum physisist commenting on the material universe it appears to be so, for he writes in ‘Physics is Geometry’ that the fabric of space-time, or superspace can be seen as being composed of fundamental building blocks. If we could examine it under a microscope, Wheeler states, it would reveal itself as being composed of a turbulent sea of bubbles, that which he calls the ‘quantum foam’. Wheeler states: ‘The space of quantum geometrodynamics can be compared to a carpet of foam spred over a slowly undulating landscape… The continual microscopic changes in the carpet of foam as new bubbles appear and old ones disapear symbolize the quantum fluctuations in the geometry. Jack Sarfatti, expanding upon Wheelers theory views the quantum foam as being a sea of maniblackholes and miniwhiteholes. These constantly appear and dissapear in the maelstrom of the universal sea. Gravitational and electromagnetic forces impact the quantum sea, setting up patterns like a pebble tossed into a still body of water and it is these ripples that are detected by scientific measurement as subnuclear particles. Some may be protons, others neutrons and together they interact, coalesce into molecules which in turn interact to form the planets and the stars and the bodies of the living entities….. Poetry? Yes. But something more? Undoudtedly! And something more again for the concept of matter as undulations in the quantum foam promises to shed light on another mystery, that of the paradox of complementarity, why it is that subnuclear entities such as electrons and protons exhibit the properties of both particles and waves. Guru is “not much interested” in extending our knowledge of the material universe, what is much more important to Guru is how to enable us to get out of it, but it does do us well, strengthening at least my convictions to know, to observe the truth of Srila Prabhupadas claims that Krsna Consciousness is “Scientific.” It is more scientific than we know, for here it is evident that to the source of this poem that such knowledge as we are only in the early stages of understanding is evident and thus that all branches of the tree; science, art, architecture, everything can be progressed through a God centered society in which all parts are related to the whole, in which all services are rendered not to the cause of weapons production or consummate greed, but to Krsna. So why is Krsna, as Srila Prabhupada revealed to us, directing him to write in such a way as to exhibit to those who have eyes to see it that which is seen in this post? To increase our faith, to show us that which we are predisposed to doubt due to our conditioning, and which others mock us for, for our beliefs in this Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna, stands ready, advancing now to meet us, to shelter us and to defeat all argument that we are something less than on the cutting edge. They are the particles, the atoms at the lotus feet and they are also the wave, the great wave of Mahaprabhu that is destined to set all living entities free of bondage. It’s really neat. Hari bol

Hi everybody. Hare Krsna. I've been away from the Internet forums for quite a few months now and upon returning I see the same old arguments going on. Not so much here although I'm sure if I looked around the archives I could pull something up. I'm referring to the debate that's going on over on the Dharma Mela. It's the old Diksa vs Siksa guru argument that never seems to die. Why is this such an issue among so many devotees? It seems like too much time and energy is wasted on this subject. When I read through the various arguments it actually turns me off of Krsna Consciousness and begins to remind me of the strict political hierarchy of the Catholic church; as if the politics were more important than the religion. I'm just wondering why this is such a big issue with those who follow in the teachings of ISKCON and His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Who really cares whether your guru is siksa or diksa or whatever. If you're so fortunate enough as to be able to actually find a guru who is true to his beliefs and convictions and loves God/Krsna and understands the intricacies of it all and is willing to share them with you as a disciple then isn't that all that matters? I'm asking this because I truly don't know. I'm very ignorant when it comes to this so any reply to this would be most helpful. I'm just trying hard to make sense out of it. Thanks. Mark Dear Mark What I get from the recomendation that a guru should not accept very many disciples is that guru's and their small bands of disciples are autonomous, having only the shastra and their direct liniage as their spiritual authority. The idea that there should be a GBC or any establishment hierarchy seems to me to be meant only to cover the business end, the establishment of facilities for spiritual and cultural growth and for preaching purposes, not as a means to control the individual gurus and their disciples. Such an interpretation as the later presents demonstrates an attitude of distrust, not only of the guru's integrity and of the disciples common sense, but also of the process which would only have to be managed in this way if it did not work, if by following the process of Krsna Consciousness one could make no advancement even up to the point whereat one could be trusted to perform the duties of the disciple/guru relationship with sincerity. What else it could imply is that there are indeed persons who wish to institutionalize themselves in positions of power. I would not be dissuaded from persueing my own individual path to perfection by the appearance upon the road of various sights that agitate me, but the debate between Rocana das and Bhrama das upon Guru tattva has not been without attraction for me for it has strengthened my conviction and dispersed my doubts on a number of issues. Through the efforts of Bhrama das and others I have now a portrait of Guru that testifies to unity and which thus promotes harmony, excatly what you hope for, the recognition that whether siska or diksa and whenever and wherever they may appear; all are like cool water to lips parched by ages of living in the fire. Hari bol

How much are we worth to anyone? How much are we able to help others become Krsna conscious? That is our greatest value for ultimately only Krsna can save us. That is why Krsna in Bhagavad Gita tells us that there is nothing dearer to him than his devotees who help each other to understand this transcendental science of Krsna consciousness, helping others to realize their own highest value and also their own, becoming nearer and dearer to Krsna, lifes greatest satisfaction. Hari bol

I think that someone once said something very wise; "Never argue with an idiot, folks might not know the difference." Never the less in such instances as these, when your positing an absolute and not just claiming that something is a model, that you should be confidant in Lord Krsna's abilities to provide one with the information by which one can defend against all charges. Not willing then to invite and to accept controversy leaves many innocents in doubt, as we are on the platform of belief and our faith is soft. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu never refrained from accepting a challenge, and neither did Srila Prabhupada. I do not think that everyone can be tarred with the same brush, that everyone who criticizes or challenges the authority or wisdom in all instances of this one or that one are envious or wrathful. What about the guru-kulis who were abused and who now hate both Krsna and Srila Prabhupada? Or who simply now express the opposite of love, apathy towards them? Certainly some are wrathful, but to call them envious is nonsense. Some then but not all are envious. Thus I reject your easy way out and argue as Gamalial argued before the Sanherdren in support of Peter and the apostles that if their arguement is the product of human vanity that it will collapse, but that if it is of God that we risk then finding ourselves at enmity with God should we seek to oppress or stone them.

Don. We become easily stuck in our linguistic grids mistaking our manipulation of symbols by their game rules to be something more than linear, sequential, reductionist and abstract thinking, but you were also trying to make fun of me. Actually I wasn't expressing myself in a holistic, simultaneous, synthetic and concrete way, or "muttering" as you put it, I was writing. I consider that the meaning of what I was talking about was obvious. Perhaps you would have forgone also making fun of my punctuation, or the lack of it however if it had been as obvious as I considered it to have been. One thing that I was saying relates to something you said in your last reply as well as to my prior post. You are wrong, i am not a spirit soul and neither are you, not that we have any realization of this. We are both conditioned living entities, that is obvious, about me to you and vice versa. It does not seem however that you are aware to this, that we are in all actuality asleep to our actual identities, not even dreaming of them, that we are totally oblivious to who in fact we actually are and that thus we are not spirit souls but our own false egos, having no other place to "hang our hats on", so to speak. We are all of us students of transcendence, we do however still suffer from the four conditioned defects, one of which is to regard our conceptual understandings as the actual thing or "true knowledge", we are still very prone to self delusion, constantly laboring against it, we hope. PS The dragon that serves me has a problem with Hemingway's grammer, to whom mine has been compared favorably to by critical review. I am a very powerful speaker, i was a Company Commander once (one guy got his hand chopped but everyone made it home) and according to some devotees one of the best singers in the movement. Srila Prabhupada liked me anyway. But I wasn't argueing that, and I think that he liked George Harrison best, I know that I did. Hari bol [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 12-09-2001).] [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 12-09-2001).] [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 12-09-2001).] [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 12-11-2001).]

Are you saying Shrila Prabhupada made a mistake? Oh yes, most definitly. He trusted "you", sorry, but I'm sorry that I wasn't there to inform him that a rope that he had holding close to his heart was a snake. Now if you don't like it you can take your whole dog and pony show and entertain someone else with your fantasy that you are worthy to chant Krsna's name. At least I know that I'm not Bhakta Don. It is the right however of anyone who is not a disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to say what they may, ann only your right to defend him against any allegations. That none of you have shown yourselves capable of doing, and your lame ass attempts at trying to do so I ownly find humiliating. Humiliating because I just so happen to share the same species with you. That does not mean however that I do not consider that it is beyond one of you to call into the tomb and bid Lazarus to come forth or some other miracle, for that is just exactly what it is going to take. Do I believe in miracles? Yes, but then again I also believe that God is just and that sets me trembling and not for myself Prabhu's. Hari bol [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 12-08-2001).]

So, we can conclude that Prabhupada for certain knew the theory very well, but when a theory is put in practice... God's tears caught in Krsna's hands, wept from the eyes of Srimati Rahdharani. Other's may make of it as they will. Imagine Krsna's rage that the trust of the spiritual master was betrayed. All glories to Srila Prabhupada Hari bol

Just like we all consider George Harrison to me master of the guitar similarly I’m sure that we all consider Srila Prabhupada to be the master of the devotees of Krsna. I however am most unfortunate dear Vaisnavas, for I am not a devotee of Krsna, but I try to be devoted to the hearts best wishes of the Vaisnavas. I must use my mind to do it however and thus I find your Gurudeva’s instructions very useful to me. Here, inside of my mind and here in yours, present before you within this linguistic grid, the illusion of my autonomy, and yet I was there backstage, helping everyone of us, the whole world by chanting Hare Krsna, and loading up the books, for the success of your masters mission. And so I am a servant of a servant of a servant so many years removed. A lot of hearts are breaking tonight, another great devotee has seemingly passed away beyond our touch, but he is even closer to our hearts today, living everywhere, everywhere in the sound of his music, in his lyrics and in his chanting of Krsna’s Holy Name. Tonight again all over the world, in every town and village they are playing Georges music, they are hearing again My Sweet Lord, and they are thinking about God again. This is a sad time, but it is also an auspicious time for by the mercy of these great devotees of the Lord we have been given again a great opportunity, to give peace a chance again, and to turn the world around towards another direction, towards Krsna. Let us pray that we don’t miss it. Hari bol

Dear Bhakta Don I wrote this a week or so ago before I read your use of the same particual quotation “Krsna Consciousness Movement is for training men to be independently thoughtful and competent in all types of departments of knowledge and action, not for making bureaucracy. Once there is bureaucracy the whole thing will be spoiled.” Srila Prabhupada – 1972 letter to the GBC We can go on and on and on discussing the lamentable results of that spoilage which is still attending and which the children of the movement are the inheritors of. “The sins of the fathers.” And we can talk about whose to blame, this one and that one, the betrayers of our innocence, of our trust, but talking about what can be done about it, even to this day requires that we pay now attention to the first part of the first sentence. It indicates that there is something very wrong with things from the inception, did you notice? “Krsna consciousness movement is for training men…” The thing that’s very wrong can be indicated by replacing the word “men” with “children”. Most Americans…everyone. Everyone born in any country in the world today, everyone born within the last…one, two, three centuries and continuing share some major assumptions, some considerations about the world and about themselves. They are in other words conditioned. What they believe then in regards to themselves they even accept to be natural, part of being human, part of their very own natures. Examples of such beliefs are that the world is progressing towards a more perfect state through the steady accumulation of human knowledge and techniques, that scientific observation is objective, and most insidious, the belief that each and everyone of us exists as an autonomous entity. This later assumption actually precludes the chance of arriving at a position where independent thought is possible, because we are not capable of thinking independently as how we think is a direct result of our conditioning, we then must be trained to recognize our conditioning and how it effects us.. Surprisingly the assumptions which we universally share have not always been those of civilized cultures and are not in fact the consideration of our own Krsna Consciousness view of reality, but they are ours nevertheless for we are conditioned with the one World View, that of the Machine Age, and not the other, the World View of Krsna Consciousness. In general we separate the two but it remains obvious in the way that we think and act and react to one another the strength and the power of our conditioning over us as well as the supreme necessity to over power it and that we cannot do as long as it remains invisible to us. “Krsna Consciousness Movement is for training men to be independently thoughtful..” The power of our conditioning, of the strength of any world view is proportionate to the degree that it is internalized, completely invisible as water is invisible to fish and air is to the birds, and yet is that which they swim and fly in. We do not possess the world view of an agrarian God centered society, but of a Machine age Godless society. We have to start from scratch and be trained ourselves as men, then and only then can the Krsna consciousness movement provide adequate training to our children. Srila Prabhupada commenting upon the result of our conditioning when he described us as ALL being atheists, not a single exception. Because we are not autonomous, because we are the products of our conditioning, of our internalized world view. Do you think that anyone who truly believed in Krsna could have committed such crimes against our innocent godbrothers and godsisters, against our friends and families, against even women and children who were not really atheists, and these criminal perpetrators were considered to be the crem dela cream of our Krsna Conscious society at one time? Like an iceburg whose sheer massiveness and most destructive potential is hidden beneath the water line while only a small tip of it is in view similarly the effects of our subconscious internalized world view is much more powerful over us than our conscious acceptance of any competing world view. Not even aware of the one upon a conscious level we separate the two with desasterous. One cannot serve two masters. Integrity is the key and for this that which lies beneath must be revealed and integrated so that we subscibe to only a single world view, that of guru, sadhu and shastra. Otherwise we set the stage for psychosis, this is evident by the history of our movement in the last 30 years behind us.

Why the Jews? The question has been asked as to why it is that the Jews have gotten so much blame and mistreatment, why such horrific crimes have been committed against them. I was surprised to see that anyone, especially upon a Vaisnava forum attempt to justify such atrocities, but to get back to the question, the answer is quite simple. The reason that the Jews have been the recipients of such horrors as have been perpetrated against them is simply because the Jews are evil…according to Christian MYTHOLOGY. According to the New Testament the Jews are responsible for the murder of Christ “His blood is on us and on our children”. The full blame for the death of Jesus was laid upon the Jews by the writers of the New Testament which hundreds of millions of people in the world today still accept as true, instead of being the B.S. that scholarly research and investigation has proven it to be along with the assertion that Christianity was every anything that Jesus intended or that it was created by him, but back to the matter. Jesus’s mission execution was politically motivated and had nothing to do with the Jewish community, only with the Romans and their Sadducee quislings, while the majority of the Jews were sympathetic to Jesus and his mission as is demonstrated by Gamalial’s defense of Peter and the acquittal of Peter before the full Sanhedran by a majority vote. This would not have been the case if it were true if it had been the consideration of Gamalial that Jesus had intended to do away with the Torah or that he had been representing himself as being divine. Far from being a lone voice, or a secret Christian sympathizer Gamalial was in actuality the head of the Pharasies, and Jesus himself was most probably also a Pharasee. Whatever there is nothing in Jesus’s presentation that stands up to examination as running counter to Jewish philosophy and he neither claimed or intended to abolish the Torah or to claim for himself that he was God. Yes he did accept himself later on in his mission to be THE Messiah, but the word Massiah does not carry the same connotations in Hebrew as it’s Greek translation Christos (from Crestos, a title meaning “Good” and an appellation addressed to Pagagn deities). What The Messiah meant to both Jesus and to the Jews was simply that he was King of the Jews. Since Rome had abolished Hebrew royalty such a claim was considered to be seditious and that is what Jesus was tried and executed for. That it was ok in the eyes of the Jews for someone to proclaim themselves King, and that they even hoped that such a claim would be true is again testified to by the speech of Gamalial before the Sanhedrin when he makes mention of two such other previous claimants to Massiahood; Theudas and Judas of Gallalie, both of whom had also been executed by the Romans. Paul, the real creator of Christianity was a liar, this he himself admits to being and demonstrates of himself to be in his own writings in the New Testament, but the extent of his deceptiveness has never been the subject of investigation until the last century. His transference of blame for the execution of Jesus from being the responsibility of the Romans onto the heads of the Jews was a lie that he created in order to make it seem that Jesus execution was for religious reasons rather than political purposes. This lie institutionalized the hatred of Jews, the greatest Irony, since Jesus himself was a Jew, and being only a better Jew was all that he ever meant or conceived himself to be. To those interested in reading more about this I refer you to the book review at http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/maccoby.html Hari bol [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 11-28-2001).]

If one gets a missionary activity and he is gathering so many people in different stages of evolution in the name of a church, or a institution, what one should expect so find? For certain those institutional leaders, new converted people, won’t be at the upper stages of the sanatana-dharma evolution. They won’t even know how to discriminate such stages. Rules meant for niskama-karmis such as celibacy would be artificially imposed to sakama-karmis. Niskama-karmis would be placed as jñanis, jñanis as muktas and gurus, and one will have a mess. Well we certainly have that, don't we? What your post brings up is a question far more controversial than the one you brought up in your thread as to whether Krsna Consciousness, as it was given to us by Srila Prabhupada was a Hindu sect or not. Since your post here pretty much describes what ISKCON was/is, the question that comes up is whether Srila Prabhupada even understood what you in your post make clear, and that if he did then what? That is why sanatana-dharma does not recommend proselytism. These artificial institutions forcibly might deteriorate into real concentration camps meant for fanatics. [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 11-23-2001).] [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 11-23-2001).]

Very funny experience, but it shows some of the stupidity that exists. A year latter pretty much everyone was drinking 7up...sprite as well I had sex with a bhramacharini once. I guess that alot of other guys were doing it. Of course that was many years after I had left the movement, and it was for magickal purposes, while I was in the movement I never even thought lustfilly about any of the bhramacharine even once. Anyway even this one was a special circumstance, she just got tired of waiting for the temple authorities to arrange a marriage for her. Ramesvara didn't like Rshabhadeva, telling her that Srila Prabhupada had said that he was a snake, and the nazi devottee PadhmaGharba that he tried to fix her up with instead...well she never much liked him anyway so when GadhaGaraj rubbed her feet with sandlewood oil that was pretty much it, he was forced to shave off his sika and both were force to leave the temple. She'd been pretty much on her own after that, except that she once got married to a karmi but he liked to beat her. When I ran into her it'd had been twenty years since I had introduced her to Krsna consciousness, and just a day or two less than that from the night when I drove her down to the temple and she joined up. I hadn't heard from her in almost 15 years, and hadn't seen her except for a glance in the almost twenty, but when she tapped me on the shoulder at the Rathyatra amongst the crowd of tens of thousands and I turned around to see Great Jaganatha towering over me and to hear a voice asking "Do you remember me?" (I had forgotten my promise till that moment), well that was pretty much it. And I never sought or asked for Initiation in Krsna Consciousness but am an Initiated Witch and sex magick is something that we do. Anyway I helped her and now the man that she considered to be her perfect match is with her boyfriends sister (I told her that she had to follow directions) and she's pretty much still miserable. After that I pretty much swore off practicing sex magick with bhramachari's. Don't know what that has to do with anything, just trying to think of something that I had ever done that might be worthy of the degree of condemnation that you were the benificiary of and couldn't come up with anything for I was very self disciplined. No one ever reprimanded me and no one ever scolded me for I pretty much was a model citizen. There was that one single time that I pisced off Srila Prabhupada and he glared at me, but that wasn't for breaking any of the regulative principles, it was for something much, much worse, it was for ironing my dhotti in the temple room, it was for being vain. [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 11-23-2001).]

"This kind of feelings, however, cannot be imposed as a religious discipline. They should be spontaneous." But there was such imposition, or attempt of it and it's still going on today. And you know, I'd say that most of it probably didn't fit then and that it doesn't fit today, that it never fit, that it never applied, that most of the people joining the movement were just like their mothers, pious souls. That we they were abused in this manner was the only crime that anyone should feel remoseful of. I have heard in recent years some persons complain that the women and children to were raped, tortured in our movement had no business complaining because it was simplu their karma and that the perpetrators of the abuse were actually only helping them to expiate that karma and that therefore they were not responsible and that they shouldn't thus be held accountable...that Srila Prabhupada knew what was going on and yet that he did not stop it out of such type of consideration...and these "arguements" have been made by people high up in the various camps, including by one whose disciples fancy him an uttama-adhikari. Talk about a sick and twisted religion.

When I first entered Krsna Consciousness movement, the first male devotte that I met tried to get me to accept some similiar guilt trip, commanding me in an authoritarian tones to say that "I am a fool and a rascal." Of course I wouldn't. He was persistant however and wore down my patience thus after several days I finally relented and when he came to me agian and hepeated his command I said "OK YOU are a fool and a rascal." Bewilderingly this however did not appease him and he became angry and offensive towards me. There was a lot of abuse in the movement back then, a lot of people going around telling other people that they were worms in the stool and other things and in general torturing them and making them feel like crap about themselves. It became physcically abusive too and whatever sick and depraved attitude that it represented was in fact the origin of how we could tolerate such abuse of woment and children as we did (I didn't, i left rather than put up with this bs)thinking that since we were such crap that the abuse was good for us. Anyway I never said that I was a fool and a rascal. The guy kept it up and finally went to far in my estimate. getting physical. Since I was big and strong, trained in the same style of Karate as 007 James Bond (Sean Connery) and was also a student of Blind Master Po's from the TV series Kung Fu third seaon stunt double Kam Yuen this was not the best idea. Under judicious application of similiar pressure as he meant to apply to me he finally relented and said "I am a fool and a rascal). It must have worked for him personally for he seemed to advance spiritually immediately, no longer needing to perform deity worship in the temple he left immediately after that to become a wondering mendicant preaching Krsna Consciousness I suppose. I never accepted that my parent or that the karmis were demons either, all that I accepted was that this type of bs applied to us was just a bunch of crap. Finally a couple of years ago I had my satisfaction when I read on one of the BB's that Srila Prabhupada had stunned a meeting of the assembled devotees by telling them that all of their mothers were pious, even though they were meat eaters. How much more pious were all the devotees who were tortured amd made to suffer, exploited and victimized due to the attitudes that they were all nothing but piles of crap? It's a shame.

quote: -- Originally posted by Janus: "What is PBS?" Ah, that is better. Submissive and relevant inquiry. -- Janus What makes you believe "relevant inquiry" is "better" when a "submissive" component is present? What is wrong with impartial, reasonable, unbiased and/or objective relevant inquiry? Why promote as “better” a behaviour that when promoted functions to, and/or leaves room for the dis-empowerment of another. "From wonder into wonder existence opens" The Tao of Lao Tzu Mathmatical information theory maintains, roughly, that information is something new and always a bit surprising, that it is something that you havn't encountered before. Under this theory, according to Norman Weiner, one of it's inventors, something that you have already seen, already heard, like a painting or a lecture, or even the Gita or the Bhagavatam contains new information if you are open and eager "submissive" in other words, not imposing a static grid of your own expectations between yourself and your perception of the experience. Scientifically speaking each of us are receiving around 100,000 bits of data simply from our sensory perceptors every single minute of our lives. The very small bit (10 out of 100,000) that we actually attain to any conscious perception of we lable then as fact and often regard as the "whole truth" and nothing but the truth, and all that there is to be gotten from the experience. What determines what bits of information that we recieve is to a large degree what we are looking for and also what we are able to recognize as having meaning by our ability to fit it into our linguistic grid. In a very real sense then we edit and create the "facts". This all takes place subconsciouly at lightning speed between the moment that the energy from a space-time event impacts our sensory perceptors and the nanoseconds later when it makes its appearance within our minds eye, our image making faculty or imagination as a precept. When we are sitting at the feet of Guru we are often forgetting that while we are sharing the same existential moment that we are presuming simply through our act of regard, simply by the fact that we are sitting there, listening, hoping to get something, that the implication is that we the person sitting and he the guru are situated in two very conditions, two very different perceptual conditions and that it is only he that sees and is a realized resident in another dimension that we are oblivious to. Yet what is our expectation? Our expectation is that whatever there is to be learned or gotten is to be learned or gotten intellectually. Thus we are considering the words of the guru to be false, mere metaphors, symbols for that which they represent as our words are. "He who drinks from my mouth will become as me." Jesus Christ - The Gospel of Thomas The words spoken by an uttama adhikari are not mundane sound vibrations but spiritual substance, a condensed stream of Krsna consciousness, superjubjective and cognizant, apprehending at every moment your mentality. If you are eager and submissive, service mentality then the relationship is an active dynamic while if you are experiening the situation as being objective and thus reacting passivly then you become inert and it is not through the Gurus unwillingness to communicate, or through Krsna's that you don't get it, but through your simple lack of interest to get it, or through your opposition to it which isn't something that you may be conscious of. Hari bol

quote: -- Originally posted by Janus: "What is PBS?" Ah, that is better. Submissive and relevant inquiry. -- Janus What makes you believe "relevant inquiry" is "better" when a "submissive" component is present? What is wrong with impartial, reasonable, unbiased and/or objective relevant inquiry? Why promote as “better” a behaviour that when promoted functions to, and/or leaves room for the dis-empowerment of another. "From wonder into wonder existence opens" The Tao of Lao Tzu Mathmatical information theory maintains, roughly, that information is something new and always a bit surprising, that it is something that you havn't encountered before. Under this theory, according to Norman Weiner, one of it's inventors, something that you have already seen, already heard, like a painting or a lecture, or even the Gita or the Bhagavatam contains new information if you are open and eager "submissive" in other words, not imposing a static grid of your own expectations between yourself and your perception of the experience. Scientifically speaking each of us are receiving around 100,000 bits of data simply from our sensory perceptors every single minute of our lives. The very small bit (10 out of 100,000) that we actually attain to any conscious perception of we lable then as fact and often regard as the "whole truth" and nothing but the truth, and all that there is to be gotten from the experience. What determines what bits of information that we recieve is to a large degree what we are looking for and also what we are able to recognize as having meaning by our ability to fit it into our linguistic grid. In a very real sense then we edit and create the "facts". This all takes place subconsciouly at lightning speed between the moment that the energy from a space-time event impacts our sensory perceptors and the nanoseconds later when it makes its appearance within our minds eye, our image making faculty or imagination as a precept. When we are sitting at the feet of Guru we are often forgetting that while we are sharing the same existential moment that we are presuming simply through our act of reagard, simply by the fact that we are sitting there, listening, hoping to learn, that the implication is that we the person sitting and he, the guru are situated in two very different situations, two very different conditions of the self in reality and that his is superior or more seeing, more self empowering than ours and that we are hoping for elevation to that position and that we are expecting this through some process of desemination, or reaching or flowing down. If however we are regarding the event as objective, processing it through some static grid, seeking for only those bits of information that aren't new information, not at all surprising instead of being open seeking more and more signals every second, being eager and open or submissive, then we will react passively and nothing will infiltrate through our passive surface. If however we are indeed eager and open, submissive then it is much more likely that the guru will be able to communicate to us more clearly than if we are being obstinant. One of the misunderstandings that we frequently are deluded by is the consideration that communication from guru to chela is at the same level, upon the level of mentation, or that it is of the mind. This presumption in and of itself makes us think that whatever information that we are going to get is conceptual, that it is linguistic. We do not even expect that much information will be communicated through other sensory channels such as eyesight, such as the raising of an eyebrow, the fiery glance of an eye or even other qualities associated with hearing such as tonal vibration, inflection, we are instead expecting that all of the info witll be communicated via a linguistic grid. This all is an example of not being eager and submissive or open. We presume that the words uttered by an uttama adhikari are material sounds not a spiritual substance that carries with it Krsna consciousness. We cannot get it if we are not eager for it and submissive to its reception, just the way it is. Hari bol

"Only a mayavadi could possibly twist such sweetness into mayavadi philosophy. What nonsense, start to finish." By your own words. You are the one who twisted my comment that the horses drawing Lord Krsnas chariot were beautiful into an explanation that rendered Krsna up as being a metaphor for the human mind just for the sake of winning an arguement which was based upon another witless assumption of yours. I contested your assertion and later you posted up the proof that I was right. I naturally thought that since you posted it that you understood it. Now it appears that you don't even realize that you lost the arguement by the proof that you posted even though it's glaringly evident. YOU are really to stupid to deal with GHari. I thank then Krsna and not you for compelling you to post up the sure proof of your own error. Let those who have eyes see. As far as whether you read my posts or not, I don't care but I am somewhat at a loss for words when the situation arises in which silence is the only response appropriate to someone who can't hear. PS. Yes, my name is George Smith, so what? There is also a George Smith club. Who cares? I am spirit soul, that I know, now that's special. What, do you think that your name is GHari?

You "thought". Where did Srila Prabhupada instruct you to finish your thought? Thank you, you posted up the proof of my assertion that the horses are beautiful, but what was all that other guff when you were trying to proove your arguement and when in the service of that desire you rendered the Supreme Personality of Godhead to the position of just being a metaphor for the human mind. How many persons read that post but will never come back to read this your own refutation of your erstwhile claim? Even one? Even one who from now on will forever after consider Krsna to be nothing more than than a symbol for his own mentality? For my part I didn’t mean to suggest that you were conscious of your editing Ghari, just that you were “contaminated” as Srila Narayana Maharaja put it by Mayavadi philosophy, which everyone born into the Western World is, and that you were motivated by a desire for false prestige. Since if I recall correctly you are a disciple of Srila Prabhupada I would have been very much surprised if you exhibited the capacity for deep thinking. Most of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada became disciples at an early age in their emotional and intellectual development and unfortunately once they became nominal initiates had satisfied their emotional needs by that act and thus afterwards never had to be troubled by whatever feeling of uncertainty had propelled them to that nominal acceptance. Thus they never had to “think” again. You were only carrying on that tradition and continuing to imagine that you are good little disciple of Srila Prabhupada while doing so, even though your ability and capability of progressing the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, yours and almost the entirety of Srila Prabhupadas nominal initiates can be measured in the nil. Perhaps Srila Narayana Maharaja was right in considering that he could have done better, that if he’d had been in charge of the movement in the West at its inception that you would have gotten better training and that thus our movements history would not have to suffer so terribly from the reputation that you and your God brothers have bequeathed to us. But then again perhaps Srila Narayana Maharaja is not conversant with some vital information, perhaps Srila Narayana Maharaja is wrong. After all why didn’t Srila Bhaktisidhanta’s mission to the West meet with better success? Yes, upon considering time and place and circumstance and that Srila Prabhupada is a mahajana, the fact that you didn’t get it then, and the fact that you still don’t get it now, and furthermore that you havn’t the slightest desire to get it comes as no surprise. Happily though not everyone is so encumbered by their own self estimate that any attempt to communicate to them that the human brain, from the viewpoint of perception theory, appears much like a very unique self-programming computor, and that it chooses – usually unconsciously and mechanically the quality of consciousness it will experience and the world view that it will employ to orchestrate the incoming signals from the experienced world – is not always in vain. I do not consider “Duh-votees” to be anything more than a detriment. Sentimentality is a sign of laziness in the intellectual sphere. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur in his purport to the vyavasayatmika buddhir verse of Bhagavad Gita instructs that the disciple must make the guru’s order his life and soul and that thus he must set himself to work indefatigably for that orders accomplisment. So what I once was part of the movement and worked my butt off doing phyical labor both night and day for the satisfaction of Srila Prabhupada? So what if you did? Those days in which I could indefatigably work physically both night and day are far behind me, and by your so frequent appearance here and there upon this or that BB it appears that those days of physically working your butt off are behind you too. So what does that leave us? Are we now allowed to sit back upon our “realizations” and dispense from out position of grand haughtier our considerations as if it would be insane for anyone to regard them as anything other than axiomatic truths? No. There is no “resting upon ones laurels”. Since the days of physical labor in the society of devotees is far behind us what then should be our sphere of prodigious endeavor? It should be only one thing in my estimate, and that is to “get it”, and to get in in the regaurd of both Srila Prabhupada and of Sri Krsna means for us one thing and one thing only, that we must follow finally become Krsna conscious. Prabhupada: If you want to please me, distribute my books That I helped to do Ghari, tons and tons of them. Devotee: What pleases you the most Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: I am MOST pleased when I see you becoming Krsna conscious. Sastra-yuktye sunipuna drdha-sraddha yanra Uttama-adhikari sei taraye samsara “One who is expert in logic, argument, and the revealed scriptures and who has firm faith in Krsna is classified as a topmost devotee. He can deliver the world.” Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Srila Prabhupadas order to his disciples if I recall correctly was for them to become Guru and thus to deliver the world, and as is indicated by this explanation of the qualities of such a world wide deliverer intellectual development, keen discrimination is a necessary development. So now that we can no longer work our butts off we must work with our minds. If you don’t want to use your brain Ghari that’s ok, but that doesn’t mean that anyone should follow your own bad example. Integrity is the key. Next time before you follow your assumption to the degree that you are willing to make it appear before the innocent that Krsna is nothing more a symbol for their own puny brains stop yourself and do some thinking. You want empathy be a little less self centered yourself. for Hari bol P.S. Thank you for posting that, that was a very good sign to me that there is hope yet for this world, that was in fact integrity, yours.

Vaisnavanum yata Sambhu " Is this the Region, this the Soil, the Clime, Said then the lost Arch-Angel, this the seat That we must change for Heaven, this mornful gloom for that celestial light. Be it so, since hee who now is Sovran can dispose and bit what shall be right: fardest from him is best Whom reason hath equall'd, force hath made supreme Above his equals. Farewell happy Fields Where Joy for ever dwells: Hail horrors, hail infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell Receive thy new Possesor: One who brings a mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time. The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heaven." Milton - Paradise Lost It's been over 25 year since I left Paradise, that temple on Capitol Hill in Seattle, that happy blissful time rather than stay for what even then before his disapearance that Sril Prabhupada or Lord Krsna revealed to me was innevitable. "Janusji: U'r right on target. Don't be discouraged. Srila Prabhupada told me this also, sending out letters to every temple in the entire world telling to provide me at a difficult moment with such reassurance. "Your mahAjan Lord Ziva takes it to the maxi, saying: "parataram... tadiyAnAm samarcanam" The further from Vraj, the better. The further from "Homebase" your worship, the more potent. The further away your bhajan, the more pleasing to Him & Her. Certain gurus may not agree & that's good. Easier to identify their level and/or their audience's." Srila Prabhupada or Krsna gave me a gift, an eyesight, an actually faculty of awareness that strenghthens me for this sojourn untill some lifetimes from hence I can return to my paradise and again busy myself in the most blissful of occupations, cleaning the floors. Thanks for the encouragement Tarun. Hare Krsna

>>Prabhupada relates in As It Is that the Upanishads show that the chariot is the body, which is drawn by the senses (horses): By the five senses GHari. Although you mentined that there are five senses near the end of your post you do not mention it now at the beginning. Why? Because you cannot count? I can. In the picture that you posted up of Lord Krsna, Arjuna and the chariot there are only four horses, one, two, three four. Essential to the appearance that you are succesfully countering my assertions (which you are only seeking to do out of egoism) is that others do not recognize that you are not talking about the same thing that I am talking about, that and that you have Srila Prabhupada in your pocket. Had you begun with "...the chariot is the body, which is drawn by the FIVE senses (horses" instead of just: "...the chariot is the body, which is drawn by the senses (horses) people might have suspected that we were naot talking about the same chariot or the same horses. That you mention that there are five senses or horses near the end of your post indicates that by that time you have you think that you have succesfully duped the innocent reader and that you no longer have to take such care at editing. The problem with your arguements are numerous, most powerfully is your equasion which refutes the existence of Sri Krsna as being anything other than a metaphor for ones own intelligence. "The individual is the passenger in the car of the material body, and intelligence is the driver. " Sri Krsna is driving the chariot in the picture that you posted up, but if we are to accept your explanation then Sri Krsna is only a symbol for our own intelligence, for our very own minds. You are spouting Mayavadi philosophy just in order to win some brownie points. The problem is is that your posts appear to some to be those made by someone who represents Srila Prabhupada and thus the innocents may go away from a reading of your post with the impression that Krsna is as your misuse of Srila Prabhupdas words make Him appear to be, just a symbol for ones own mind. "In the original edition there is also a painting of the five chariot horses reeling wildly, each with a different sense, like eyes, nose, ear afixed to their harnesses. The poor chariot driver is in total panic for the chariot is out of control. Hence, the question: Hey, who's driving that chariot, anyway? gHari" This shows how crazy you have become in your persuit of your own egos agenda. If we are to apply your reasoning as you suggest that we do to the chariot of Lord Krsna then the chariot is out of control, the horses reeling and the chariot driver who is Krsna Himself in a panic. Whose driving your chariot GHari? Whoever, you should get a new driver, one perhaps who values service to the guru to whom he professes to be a devotee of more than he values his own quest for false prestige. You can make only one reply to this post that will satisfy me that you are sincere in your claim that you are Srila Prabhupada's devotee or any servant of Krsna's devotees at all, and unless you make it I will account you just to be a Mayavadi and not anyone to address mano e mano. I will of course reserve the right to alert persons to your abuse of Srila Prabhupadas philosophy in the manner of a devil quoting scripture for its own ends. Hari bol -- BG 9.34 For the mind is restless, turbulent, obstinate and very strong, O Krishna, and to subdue it, I think, is more difficult than controlling the wind. PURPORT The mind is so strong and obstinate that it sometimes overcomes the intelligence, although the mind is supposed to be subservient to the intelligence. For a man in the practical world who has to fight so many opposing elements, it is certainly very difficult to control the mind. Artificially, one may establish a mental equilibrium toward both friend and enemy, but ultimately no worldly man can do so, for this is more difficult than controlling the raging wind. In the Vedic literature (Katha Upanisad 1.3.3-4) it is said: atmanam rathinam viddhi sariram ratham eva ca buddhim tu sarathim viddhi manah pragraham eva ca indriyani hayan ahur visayams tesu go-caran atmendriya-mano-yuktam bhoktety ahur manisinah "The individual is the passenger in the car of the material body, and intelligence is the driver. Mind is the driving instrument, and the senses are the horses. The self is thus the enjoyer or sufferer in the association of the mind and senses. So it is understood by great thinkers." Intelligence is supposed to direct the mind, but the mind is so strong and obstinate that it often overcomes even one's own intelligence, as an acute infection may surpass the efficacy of medicine. Such a strong mind is supposed to be controlled by the practice of yoga, but such practice is never practical for a worldly person like Arjuna. And what can we say of modern man? The simile used here is appropriate: one cannot capture the blowing wind. And it is even more difficult to capture the turbulent mind. The easiest way to control the mind, as suggested by Lord Caitanya, is chanting "Hare Krishna," the great mantra for deliverance, in all humility. The method prescribed is sa vai manah krsna-padaravindayoh: one must engage one's mind fully in Krishna. Only then will there remain no other engagements to agitate the mind. -- In the original edition there is also a painting of the five chariot horses reeling wildly, each with a different sense, like eyes, nose, ear afixed to their harnesses. The poor chariot driver is in total panic for the chariot is out of control. Hence, the question: Hey, who's driving that chariot, anyway? gHari

I picked up a second book today by a second author who had also pretty much made a convincing case (as the first author had done), that Christianity wasn't started by Jesus, but was invented by Paul. The first book didn't try to picture Paul as a Shaman however, but more as an "innovator", creating something new and not at all anything that Jesus himself had intended. This new proposition that Jesus was a Shaman, that he was possessed of a spirit is pretty much in accordance with the general view of him held by Christendom and pretty much supports his own claim that Paul was a Shaman for a Shamna must have at least one spirit at his or her beck and command. The problem is that Paul started a new religion that Jesus would have regarded as being idolatrous, claiming as it did that a man was God. What then was the true nature of the spirit possessing Paul? Was it indeed "holy"? I found it interesting that Paul considered that there was another spirit laying about besides the spirit possessing him, but although he did upon occaision mention the devil he reffered to this other spirit as being Sin rather than personifying it. Is there any reference in the Vedas to a Jesus avatara?

The chariot and the four horses driven by Krsna are not under the direction of the material energies, not are they the horses themselves material energies, As Srila Prabhupada explained to us the artists of our movement were painting windows for us to see into the Spiritual Sky, into the pastimes of Sri Krsna and His devotees. Thus the only thing that one can question is the nature of our apprehension. Viewing the deity as being made of stone or wood is pretty much the same as considering Krsna's paraphenalia, his friends or the gift of horses (animal friends), it is pretty much the product of our atheistic and hopeless mentality which still regards Krsna Himself even as a myth. So I am getting attitude because I referred to the horses drawing Krsna and Arjunas chariot as being beautiful, wheras if I had said that Krsna was beautiful, or even Arjuna I would have not been the object of such attitude. Why? Because the persons expressing such attitude did, before this post consider themselves as being unbewildered. What's interesting to me is that if I had said that a flower held by Sri Rahda was beautiful I doubt that I'd have got such an attitude, or if I'd referred to the feather in Krsna's cap as beautiful. It seems that we hate more the nature that's closest to us, fauna, and that also our conception of what's associated with Krsna ends when it doesn't touch his skin. Someone can tell us the difference between Krsna's nara-lila and human like pastimes much better than I and anyone who knows can correct me if I am wrong. Hari bol