Ganeshprasad

Pranam One story from mahabharat comes to my mind, is off Ekalavya, he shot his arrows to shut the dog barking. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam I don’t know what the hack myavadi is, I know of no group that call it self mayavadi. The sloka that I quoted was secondary to support the primarily Bhagvat gita verse, without any commentary, as it is. It holds ground on its own. if it is contaminated challenge it. There is too much being made of the use of the word ‘it’ dare I say a baby in the womb can be referred to as it, this in no way render it formless. Rigveda is an infallible source of knowledge but I accept translation could be faulty, there was no intention what so ever to push any personal or impersonal concepts. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Prabhu I thank you for your kind words, i am sorry if i had mislead you as i do not intend to run away from the forum, only that the bye was meant for his attitude. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam all First I like to say I had not said goodbye to the forum, but there was no sensible discussion to be had with this person hence my byes. Once again I am compelled to respond as he alleges that I hounded him and that he was polite, what nonsense. 1.It was him who responded to my post 2. He trashes my rest of the post and here what he said, ‘’The rest of the argument from such a contaminated source holds no interest to me for further consideration.’’ If this was polite I wonder what is rude? Piss off, Na. All I quoted was bhagvat puran and bhagvat gita if that is contaminated I like to know why, a reasonable request I think, I am still waiting. Jai Shree Krishna

And i thought this was a spritual discussion. May Lord Krishna/Shiva Bless you and me goodbye. Jai Shree Krishna

Be cautious all you like and I be sensitive when I see misrepresentation or ridiculing the source I provided. Be objective study both the sloka from your own source and refute it if you can This thread has nothing to do with personalists or impersonalists schools. It is about Lord Shiva as Paramatma? In case you forgotten. I had provided Rigved verse in support of Bhagvat Gita slok 11.39 which clearly indicates the Lord is known by those many names. And the Bhagvat slok is actualy supporting the thread in question. SB 8.7.21: The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all devas, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds. So if you can refute both do so but don’t try deflect the truth, (for want of use of the word ‘it’) it was not presented to reflect impersonalist view. Jai Shree Krishna

Wow what a cop-out, this has nothing to do with my right or your rejection, No Acharya would reject rig Veda the verse I provided has no commentary if you fill the translation is wrong I am happy to consider it, I only provided that verse to support the Verse from Bhagvat Gita. In any case I was happy to withdraw it. If you consider Bagvat puran and Bhagvat Gita as contaminated sourse, then there is nothing further to say and if you think the translation I have provided is wrong then bring the ones you have, just don’t hide behind your personal approach but then that is your choice. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam If this is only the objection I withdraw the verse (although the Vedas are infallible) but then I suspect you find any excuse to reject rest of the argument put forward. Bhagvat the amala puran in this verse 8.7.21 is very clear about who the parmatma is don’t you think? And Bhagvat gita verse 11.39 do I see any argument? Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Krishna tu Bhagvan swayam, to deny that would be like cutting the nose to spite the face, Ista Deva, Some see Bhagvan as Shiva, and yet another as Devi and some see as Brahman one without a second. All shadhak see god through their respective Shastra. Demigods have no place in Vedic dharma, devas yes and they are all worthy of our worship. SB 8.7.21: The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all devas, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds. BG vayur yamo 'gnir varunah sasankah prajapatis tvam prapitamahas ca namo namas te 'stu sahasra-krtvah punas ca bhuyo 'pi namo namas te You are Vaayu, Yama, Agni, Varuna, Shashaanka, and Brahmaa as well as the father of Brahmaa. Salutations to You a thousand times, and again and again salutations to You. (11.39)B And the Vedas confirms above "They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutman. To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan." RV (Book 1, Hymn 164.46) It is absurd to think expansions and the different forms of one supreme lord as separated and different. As if the supreme Brahman could be fragmented, the mind boggles Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Try this link http://www.geocities.com/ramya475/Para.html http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=14366#post14366 Jai Shree Krishna

What is evil? Was Hiranyakasipu evil was Ravana evil, was Sisupal evil? Apparently yes ask any of theirs victims, but then weren’t they also victim of circumstance. What was their crime? Doing their job and then they chose three births so that they can be with their lord sooner. Was that evil? How can the creation which is perfect also contain evil this I don’t get. All I know is as Krishna says our mind is our friend as well as enemy. Also as he says sri-bhagavan uvaca kama esa krodha esa rajo-guna-samudbhavah mahasano maha-papma viddhy enam iha vairinam The Blessed Lord said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material modes of passion and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world.(3.37) So let us not look for evil in the world but eliminate the evil within. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Yes when we pick a sentance out of context it sounds horrible, if i read whole of his argument i find theist does not advocate violence. As much as i hate voilence but i still reserve the right to self defence. if the house is on fire we get out and then if we can, we help put the fire out. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam theist Yes this certainly is great understanding but as you point out difficult to implement, we have to interact with each other and that is why there are Yama and Niyam for a society to function in harmony, such laws are vital and if the karma is understood then one would think twice even to harm an ant. What happened than is still present now, it is not anger and resentment, perhaps not even the reminders that stand witness to the past atrocieties, the fact is the terror is still present, what I cant understand is a society whose greeting is peace to each other do not afford this to those who do not belong to their fold. What can one do except endure but we can not condone those action or fail to see the real cause of terrorism, who ever causes it should be exposed. I may have not made my point clear although it was about, despite Iskcon duplicity, we stood shoulder to shoulder to keep the manor open. I would like to make this clear Iskcon was not stopping Hindus to worship at manor but it was a fight between the authorities and the temple and we all gathered force. And I was in Sudamapuri (Porbander Gujrat) it was horrific and scary. I am glad of your final analysis, of course this place is described by Krishna as Dukhalaya full of misery, and yes no one group should be singled out yet one is guided by what one see in the world. I am sure there are good people in this group of Muslims, how could there not? Yet when one forms opinions by what one sees, I see violence, hate, and subjugation. If this is to win their heaven, I will prefer to stay on this earth. I can also see the excessive punishment mated in response to one horrific crime committed by few individuals for that wrong country bore the brunt of one country’s anger, I also feel deep sympathy for those individual who may or may not be responsible, suffered the indignation under captivity and perhaps still suffering. I wish we did not have to choose any battle my friend and if this battle of ours resulted in brotherhood I am glad, for I can see neither one of us have an appetite for violence. Hare Krsna Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam there is not much information as regards to many fring characters of Ramayan, this so far internet has provided. i have not had time to refer to Valmiki and Tulsidas Ramayan i have, if i find any more info i shell post it. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Ravana's paternal grandfather was Pulastya, son of Brahma. Ravana's maternal grandfather was Malyavan, who was against the war with Rama, and his maternal grandmother was Tataka. Ravana also had a maternal uncle, Maricha. TARAKA A female Daitya, daughter off the Yaksha Su-ketu or of the demon Sunda, and mother of Maricha. She was changed into a Rakshasi by Agastya, and lived in a forest called by her name on the Ganges

Pranam I keep moaning groaning if that is what you call truth, Hindus has been trampled over all over the world, we are used as punching bag and seen as soft target, we are the ones that has been wronged, it us who endure and endure we must, but we so much as speak about it we get branded sectarian. I have no desire to build a temple, if Ayodhya is what you mean, otherwise building a temple would be a noble cause, for the moment I am satisfied with a temple in my house. And yes I did round up my Hindu buddies in saving Bhakti vedant manor and you know what, this despite hearing in private meetings amongst devotees, addressed by senior sanyasis declaring boldly, we may call our self Hindus in this instance but in reality we are not, such deceit and yet us gullible hindus fought for our right to worship at the manor. Yes and my heart goes out to those who lost their life. Do you really know what actually happened, those whom you call demon chanting ram ram, were returning pilgrim travelling in the train and they were burnt alive by Muslims, what followed was a reaction I do not condone their action just as I do not condone what followed from 9/11. So I want take your advise and go get them but I will moan and groan to speak the truth. Jai Shree Krishna

It is so easy to say that, sitting from a distance making judgement, and yes call them both Sectarian what the heck it has nothing to do with me. Drihtrastra excuse was he was blind and he refused to hear the truth due to his love of his childrean. Bhisma pita was honour bound so he sided with unrighteous Drona and Kripacharya were loyal to the Kingdom, such great personalities’ silence and remaining indifferent to the truth, resulted in a war. Sure this is kali yuga for even a simple truth has no value. Yes let us be selfish and travel above the fray. We see no evil, do no evil and hear no evil, some how the evil will pass us by. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam If that was the case, muslims should help undo the past mistake and help build the future, unfortunately not every one accepts they made any mistakes, they came here to change us even with brutal use of force they largely failed, but their mission still remain to bring the infidels to their fold, and that’s is why I do not think an amicable solution would be found any time soon. I agree completely. I do not condone mindless act of violence what ever group that may be, what drives them, revenge for what? Politicians do not help, their greed for power to play with peoples life. Terrorists blowing up and killing innocents in thousands government un able to protect, no wonder the situation is boiling waiting to explode. So who do we apportion blame on? Wise words, human capacity to endure knows no bound in this case hindus have to wait a bit more, there may be a delay but truth always prevails in the end. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam quite right for the want of better use of the word, but it still remains ghana. even gravity is overcome but it requires a little effort. now we are digressing completely. perhaps you may want to start a new thread. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam To view karma as only tool is fatalistic, Ghana karmano gati. Not so simple. Again we speak fine words of mercy and philosophies, nothing new that is not known, an individual who takes this path is honoured but it does not solve the problems that India has. Not everyone is wise, to speak so is very easy. To give practical solution to a given problem is another. Read the context of my statement, you are way off line. This is not any thing to do with Hindu. V GV. As soon as you give a name it becomes a designation, to call Hindu dharma a false identity is your perception there is no bases to it, I can say the same about your organisation where would it lead us, perhaps you can learn a bit of humility your self. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Not even one loss of a life is acceptable, that does not stop me making an observation of injustices. You make good points on Ayodhaya about the lack of visit and interest, and eventual sufferers, I wonder how far is it because of the fear of violence and the security forces harassment. Although I do not live in India I like to visit all the holy dhams and I sure have been to ayodhaya and have had dip in the holy river Saryou. It is very desirable to sit under a tree and meditate and do the bhajan, a lot of Hindus would like to do that, we can all make such fine statements to make us feel good, false sense of ego and pride may not be the reason at all but it sounds good. Arjun also desired such an option. I may not be able grasp the finer points of logic so what, if you are so clever find a solution. Problem does not disappear sitting on sideline or always required by Hindus to give in, Muslims of India has to come up with a solution also. Unfortunately Islam does not allow any compromise to infidels Oh yes karma is a great escape root, such fatalist view, yes we all get what we deserve but how does that make Hindus responsible for atrocities of Muslims and British. Try telling a victim of rap that by the way it was your karma. Please Now I will have to start taking lesson in humility, perhaps you can tell me my arrogance, I try and mend my ways, I certainly would not like to reflect my sort comings on Hindus Time to give this back to distribution of food, a hungry stomach does not know any majab or sect. there is no reason why Iskcon can not prepare and feed un offered food to Muslims. In my mind any satvic food cooked in the mood of goodness is acceptable. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam That is very big of you, and why not you have the teachings of Vedas, but not nearly as big as what people of Bharat had to give up, nearly half the land has been carved up. But my question original was, what those so called religious people would do? As a Hindu I would not desecrate any place of worship to begin with, so it is not surprising to hear your stand. I am in no way advocating violence. isn’t it the precise reason, for so long the issue has not been resolved, the tolerance nature of Hindu against intransigent nature of Islam, still reminds us of their atrocities, this is the point I am trying to make. I am not so sure if the devotees of SP would be willing to give up the Samadhi how ever high the ideals one may have. I certainly do not have hatred for other peoples religious monuments but when it reminds you of their injustices then it becomes ones duty to speak up, what need is there for eyesore like in Mathura, Kashi Vishvanath any many other religious sites, those domes in place of Hindu temples can hardly be classified as place of worship. I do not, in any stretch of imagination have the spiritual vision of Mahatma Gandhi, nor if we are honest for those who merely consider him as a great politician, now where have I heard that. Allah is a name Lord Rama, try telling that to a Muslim. And I hear this song, in lots of Hindu temples never in a mosque. So again i stress, I have no problem, with mosque or church, but those erected on top of others place of worship, can never be classified as place of worship. To continue to hold on to those places, which serves nothing but reminder of one’s of atrocities that were committed in the past, such reminders can never be conducive to peace. Islam the religion of peace could really do them self a favour by giving it up, it would go a long way in bringing lasting peace in sub continent don’t you think? Jai Shree Krishna

It is so easy to make judgement from distance not affected by it all. Sure Christians may or may not have any reverence for Christ birth place. History of the place is very different, not helped by the Brits either. If the minority Christians had any say they certainly would do some thing. That is why I mention Vatican and I can assure those who have doubt, that the situation that prevails in Bharat would never be replicated any where in the world. All those religions are seeking conversion in nature, they have very little tolerance for others, the first thing either would do is reclaim what they consider is their own and I am sure that they would not spare a soul who would come in their way. This new age Vaisnavas taking high moral ground, I don’t buy that, of course we should make our bodies and heart temple of the lord, but then what need is there to build temples. Why spend millions of pounds making temples when that could easily be used for the poor of the world. Who is spending millions of rupees in India making the most opulent temples? Iskcon is fine example. How much money and energy was exhausted in trying to save Bhakti Vedanta temple in London, even though it original never was meant to be a temple and that is why it faced closure, yet no stone was left unturned. Let me try another example, even though I find most Hindus position indifferent to Ayodhya issue and there are many reasons for it and one of them is about bodies and heart as temple of the lord most Hindu have this notion, so no need to say it is the (new age) Vaishnav thinking (I say new age because this is not Hindu V Vaishnav, Vaisnavas are Hindus) I find Iskcon standing on the side line very peculiar. Lets say for argument sake the Krishna Balaram temple in vardavan is occupied by an x organisation, they put their flag on the place, they desecrate the murtis and the Samadhi, after some time you get back your place, what would you do? Would you let that flag still flying in the name of tolerance? would you not want to rebuild the Samadhi and reinstall the murtis? Some one said there is no reason why the two can not stand side by side, great sentiment again but would you allow that in your back yard? Tolerance is a great virtue but if one is afflicted by a thorn in the foot only relief comes from removing it. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam you tell me. what did Mr Bush do and is still doing, 3000 thousand or so killed 9/11.(horrible) what is so sad is completely wrong country, how ever bad it might have been got punished, and what amount of punishment! an eye for an eye. yet it was Ghandhi who said an eye for an eye will make the whole world go blind. What Did Krishna say; stand up and fight what does Hindu do for so long and are still doing? begged and pleaded Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam That may not be entirely correct, there has been attacks by the terrorist, aided and abated by Muslims on Hindu temples, akshar dham for one and also an Iskcon temple on Janmastmi day if I remember rightly. But that is not the point The Muslims of present can and should acknowledge the atrocity and the destruction of the temples by their forefathers, and even today the domes of mosques constructed over the temples stands as constant reminders, do you think such a situation be allowed to continue and how long? No where except the tolerance of Hindu, such a situation would have been allowed to continue after the aggressor have been ousted. So they do have some responsibility to keep the peace, would it be too much to ask for our place of worship to be given back? Does anyone here think, say hypothetical if the Kaba or Vatican were to be desecrated by some aggressor, and after due course of time, the Muslims and Christians having regained their kingdom, would they then, plead and beg with descendent of the original conquerors to restore their place of worship? I shudder to think what they actually might do. Have Germans actually been forgiven? there is still a lot of resentment around ask any Jews, or even locals there still remains a deep rooted resentment. As for the slavery no wonder we want to forget, it is such a blot on the so called civilised democratic society. No Hindu seek to persecute a Muslim for crimes committed in the past, Hindus are peace loving people, if only every one was like that, instead they come to convert us, (heathens or infidels ) dislike is a strong word, we simply need to be awake of the reality. Jai Shree Krishna