Ganeshprasad

Pranam Hara the Man Lusting After Hari the woman, if you call lusting after Hari a flow, so be it. You will never understand this if you cant accept this. SB 8.12.39: My dear Lord Śambhu, who within this material world but you can surpass My illusory energy? People are generally attached to sense enjoyment and conquered by its influence. Indeed, the influence of material nature is very difficult for them to surmount. SB 8.7.31: O Lord Girīśa, since the Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahmā, Lord Viṣṇu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. SB 8.7.32: When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. Nonetheless, you do not know how this happens. What then is to be said of your destroying the Dakṣa-yajña, Tripurāsura and the kālakūṭa poison? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you. SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Umā, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities. I repeat do you accept what Veda Vyasdev has written here, never mind what is written in Shiv Puran, i have not even gone there, nor will i ever do that to prove a cheap point. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam I accept Now do you accept this SB 8.12.39: My dear Lord Śambhu, who within this material world but you can surpass My illusory energy? People are generally attached to sense enjoyment and conquered by its influence. Indeed, the influence of material nature is very difficult for them to surmount. SB 8.7.31: O Lord Girīśa, since the Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahmā, Lord Viṣṇu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. SB 8.7.32: When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. Nonetheless, you do not know how this happens. What then is to be said of your destroying the Dakṣa-yajña, Tripurāsura and the kālakūṭa poison? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you. SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Umā, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam I have no problem accepting what you have quoted. So the Lord is attracted by Mohini Swarup. Hara runs after Hari all fun really. Now the question is do you accept this? SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma-, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Simple really, keep it simple accept everything that Veda Vyas has given, instead of spending life time trying to reconcile apparent contradiction, were there are none, only except in our mind because we have hierarchy problem. So they pray to each other, hardly surprising depending on which verse or book you are reading. SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Shiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way. Great logic, as I said you will spend life time trying to reconcile all the srutis instead of accepting for what it is worth. Funny really, Lord Vishnu was right there, I am surprised he did not drink the poison if going by your logic that the prayers were actually addressed to Lord Vishnu. I never said there are two supreme, I have always maintained that they are two side of same coin. Try learn from Lord Vishnu himself 4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself. He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa. Sri Bhagvat 4.1-28Atri Muni desiring a son like him called upon the Bhagvan thinking of him only. But although he is far beyond the mental speculation of man, all three of you have come here. kindly let me know how you have come, I am greatly bewildered about this. 4.1-30 the three devas told Atri Muni, Dear brahmana you are perfect in your determination, and therefore as you have desired so it will happen, it will not happen otherwise. We are all the same person upon whom you were meditating, and therefore we have all come to you. Vishupuran say this 5.33-46 yo harih sa siva saksad yah sivah sa svayam harih ye tayor bhedam ati sthan narak aya bhave narah. Whoever is lord hari, he himself is lord shiva indeed any human being mistake both the lords to be different,he/she surely goes to hell yatha siva mayo vishnuh Sivasya hrdyam Visnur Visnoz ca hrdayam Sivah(Skanda puran) Just as Lord Vishnu is pervaded by Lord Shiva, Similarly, in Shivas heart Vishnu resides and Vishnus heart is abode of Shiva. Great we have some progress, thanks for the small mercy. SB 4.6/45 O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuṇṭha planets and the Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this. I agree I agree but in carrying out those function he assumes those different names which we all know. Try telling that to Morari Bapu. Try reading Sridhar Swami’s commentary who Sri Chetanya Mahaprbhu endorses, he certainly sees them as one, or go ask Rameshbhai Oza he recites Bhagvatam, he has Sandipani Ashram near Porbandar. You are simply clutching at straws, prayers are addressed at Lord Shiva and he is being called all this names that bring forth creation matainance and destruction. Ramash Bhai Oza calls this fondly, as GOD G=genarator O=operator and D=destroyer. The translation give by Prabhupada is not wrong O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation. Did Vyasdev tell you to ignore any? Are puranas in it self tamsic etc in nature? Or are this three personalities who have control over this guna, and the Puranas actually sing their glories in their respective field and place them beyond the reach of this Gunas. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Reasonable question. Veda Vyas would not give us contradictions would he? Not if you view them as part of the same coin, there are references saying Hari and Hara are one but difference in function.

Pranam No where in Bhagvat Gita Deva worship is condemned, in bg 7.20-23 the material desire of Jiva and futility of its endeavor which is temporary is condemned not the Devas. Just see what Lord Krishna says in Chapter Three and Seventeen in this regard. Brahmaa, the creator, in the beginning created human beings together with Yajna and said: By Yajna you shall prosper and Yajna shall fulfill all your desires. (3.10) Nourish the Devas with Yajna, and the Devas will nourish you. Thus nourishing one another you shall attain the Supreme goal. (3.11) Men in the mode of goodness worship the devas; those in the mode of passion worshipthe demons; and those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits. (17.4) The worship of Devas, Braahmana, guru, and the wise; purity, honesty, celibacy, and nonviolence; these are said to be the austerity of deed. (17.14) Makes me wonder if we are reading the same Bhagvat Gita. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam My sentiment exactly, although polytheist in appearance and worship of various devas does give that appearance never the less Vedas do not admit of another. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Goswami Tulsidas is a great devotee of Sri Ram had tremendous respect for Lord Shiva and maa Bhavani in fact he addressed them as embodiment of faith and confidence,This is what Lord Ram had to say in Lankaakaandda. 336 Chaupaayi: Linga thaapi bidhi-vata kari poojaa: Siva-samaana priya mohi na doojaa:: Siva-drohee mama bhagata kahaavaa: so nara sapanayhu mohi na paavaa:: Sankara-bimukha bhagati chaha moree: so naarakee moorhha mati thoree:: L/2 336. After installing Shivalinga, a symbol of Shiva, and worshipping it, Shree Raama said, "There is none as dear to me as Shiva. One who wants to be called my devotee but is opposed to Shiva, cannot reach me even in one’s dream. One averse to Shiva, but who wishes devotion to me is stupid and goes to hell." Shree Raama demonstrates the importance of symbolism in Sanaatana Dharma. He followed the traditional sequence for the installation of Shiva’s symbol. He first made the symbol of sand on the seashore, worshipped Shiva in it and then offered prayer to him. Shree Raama’s prayer shows that Shiva and he are one. The devotion to either is devotion to both. Tulaseedaasa is pointing out that the reality of God, gods and deities is one in all and all are one in reality, regardless of differences in perspectives even among some followers of sampradaayas are Shaivites, who treat Shiva, and Vaishnavites, who claim Vishnu as the Supreme. Not the name or form in which we worship God Almighty, but our yearning for Him matters to him. 337 Dohaa: Sankara priya mama-drohee, Siva-drohee mama daasa: Tay nara karahin kalapa bhari, ghora naraka main baasa:: L/2 337. Shree Raama continued, "Those who love Shiva and are opposed to me or are against Shiva and devoted to me, will live in hell for a full kalpa." The Shree Raamacharita Maanasa repeats the oneness of Shiva, a god of the Indian trinity, and Shree Raama, an Incarnation of Vishnu. (See 241[35]) By treating Shiva as a guru and as the personification of enlightened faith, Tulaseedaasa made him the foundation of devotion to Shree Raama. Shiva is Shree Raama’s bhata, master and friend. It is a peculiar relationship of oneness between an Incarnation of God and gods. Shree Raama installed and worshipped Shiva’s symbol. Shiva always repeats Shree Raama’s name. This verse is from an excerpt on 'Bhakti' written in 'Uttara Khanda' spoken by Lord Ramacandra Himself. Lord Ramacandra said: " aurau eka guputa mata sabahi kahaum kara jori, shankara bhajana binaa nara bhagati na paavai mori " With folded hands I now lay before you one MORE SECRET doctrine: WITHOUT ADORING Lord Shankara NO MAN can ATTAIN loving DEVOTION to ME. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam No thank you, I see no contradiction to say so would be to insult Veda Vyas who apparently gives contradictions according to you. This could only happen when one start with a notion what Brahman is and then anything else that don’t fit with our ideology we need interpretation, to the extent we will kill off Vedic gods just to prove our point. So I will use my brain and accept what Sri Vyasdev says literally, I see no contradiction in his writing I don’t reject Shiv Puran for that matter other purans based on anyone’s assertion, to do so would be to accuse Vyasdeva that he did not know srutis. Well don’t bother and just for the record, I stayed well away from Jesus thread. There is no problem posting Sanskrit verses from Bhagvatam thanks to Srila Prabhupada. In any case verse numbers were given. The purpose for those verses were that Prajapati are praying to Lord Shiva there is no escaping that, there is no doubt about that. I don’t need no interpretation I accept just as given by Vyasdeva. Self proclaimed victory does not wash with me, purpose of spiritual life is not about victory over my god against yours, which seems to preoccupy you. It is about transcending this Tamas that is why we pray Lead us from this deep darkness to light. I have already admitted to this but it does not change anything as regards to the actual prayer. I don’t know why you say hypocritical I do not follow Prabhupada, I certainly do not read biased purport from any one. I am interested in Bhagvatam and what Vyasdeva is saying, I have my own version in Gujarati but English is readily available By Srila Prabhupada. I am no Hare Krishna nor do I think they be interested in what you have to say with your brand of humility. You cant even if you tried. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Thanks for your concern but I have nothing to learn from you. How convenient you forget the word Devine and the fact Arjun is asking In what form are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17) It is true one only wants to see and hear what one has learned, sad really. Externally Arjun has already described various devas who are bewildered, and praying but this specific verse follows from You are the primal God, the most ancient Person. You are the ultimate resort of all the universe. You are the knower, the object of knowledge, and the supreme abode. The entire universe is pervaded by You, O Lord of the infinite form. (11.38) You are Vaayu, Yama, Agni, Varuna, Shashaanka, and Brahmaa as well as the father of Brahmaa. Salutations to You a thousand times, and again and again salutations to You. (11.39) Note the word infinite form and Arjun is saying You are so and so, it is vast different from being part of the virat rupa, where Arjun saw other Devas praying to him. If you are honest you would at least see them as Devine and not Jiva. Rest of your post is gibberish and has no value. What you so fondly call satvic puran has eulogised Lord Shiva in his benevolent act of drinking the poison, he is clearly mentioned as being prayed to by Prajapati as supreme, the fact that you like to ignore is because of your obsession of denigrating Lord Shiva, who is beyond tamas, unfortunately obsessed by his tamas you can not see the light. Goodbye my friend be happy in your knowledge Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam don’t forget this answers were off the cuff and I had presumed Jada Bharat, formaly Bharat Maharaj the son of Ṛṣabhadeva. Is obvious to me now that is not the same as Bharat of shakuntala and king dushyant. Thank you for correcting me. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam oops, sorry i got no 5 wrong Utra is actually Abhimanus wife, of course Pariksit Maharajs Mother. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Very nice, i was thinking in line with Jada-Bharat who of course is the same person, can you think of his parents name? Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam In a way yes, one’s shadhna should be directed to one’s ista deva, but then such a person is not bothered by some else mode of worship. My lord is not supreme at the expense of other divine manifestations of the supreme brahman. A simple fact what Lord Krishna says can be understood easily, such is the unity in diversity. This is Hindu Dharma. Some worship Me by knowledge sacrifice. Others worship the infinite as the one in all (or non-dual), as the master of all (or dual), and in various other ways. (9.15) Truth is only one, some see the Zebra, white with back stripe and others as black, in any case the Zebra remains the same, will not change or care. Lord Krishna says hardly any one knows me in truth, and if one is stuck in hierarchy problem then the truth remains very elusive Cheers Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam You can talk, anything you say can not be taken seriously, all you are doing is giving opinions and look at the contradiction in your statement one minute Lord Brahma has intelligence next he is prone to make mistake, all our knowledge is coming from him, so based on your assertion that Brahma is prone to make mistake your knowledge of Vedas are faulty. Again as I said your opinion in what Lord Krishna is saying has no value, Krishna is saying My prominent divine manifestations. beside Arjun is asking what various forms,? and then he sees them in his universal form. Bhagvatam verse I quoted does not come from Saviate or Advaita acharya but none other then Srila Prabhupada. Like it or not that is who Prajapati are praying to, Lord Shiva the husband of Uma. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Good questions, although I don’t think if Indulekhadidi be too happy to be called dadi, on other hand she does display great maturity for her age, so dadi could be taken as a compliment. i see you have wisely changed dadi to dasi. Some of the answers that has not been ansered yet 4. Dharma arth kaam and moksh based on satya, pavitrata, tapa and ahimsa 6. Six months I think 8. Because having seen the lord he did not want the rajya 10. That he become chiranjivi. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Why the truth is hurting? There are devas but there is only one Mahadeva. Problem with your argument is Rudra when extolled we will claim that to be Vishu, does not wash with me. People like you claim all names belong to Vishnu but if I ask you to chant those names then it would be big silence. Rudras appeared from the mind of Brahma, so did Vishnu appeared from his nose, you are proving nothing. Krishna takes birth Ram takes birth, so what, only our faulty understanding prevents us to see the truth. Unlike you I am not doubting Lord Vishu. On this bases everything you write must be rejected, if there is any doubt in Lord Brahmas wisdom, then anything you have learned off him and his writing must be suspect. Now there is no need to get personal, dumb that I am but it is easy enough to see how wise you are, getting knowledge from faulty Brahma, your words not mine. Comments and opinions are based on doctrines, many twists and turns are adopted but the facts are very clear to see just check out Prajapati praying to Lor Shiva. SB 8.7.24: You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, PBrahman, which is originally Parabrahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation. SB 8.7.25: O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [r?ta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om?, which consists of three letters a-u-m. SB 8.7.26: O father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varun?a, master of the waters, is your tongue. SB 8.7.27: O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head. SB 8.7.28: O lord, you are the three Vedas personified. The seven seas are your abdomen, and the mountains are your bones. All drugs, creepers and vegetables are the hairs on your body, the Vedic mantras like Ga-yatri- are the seven layers of your body, and the Vedic religious system is the core of your heart. SB 8.7.29: O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord S'iva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Parama-tma-. SB 8.7.30: O lord, your shadow is seen in irreligion, which brings about varieties of irreligious creations. The three modes of nature — goodness, passion and ignorance — are your three eyes. All the Vedic literatures, which are full of verses, are emanations from you because their compilers wrote the various scriptures after receiving your glance. SB 8.7.31: O Lord Giri-s'a, since Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma-, Lord Vis?n?u or the King of heaven, Mahendra. SB 8.7.32: When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. Nonetheless, you do not know how this happens. What then is to be said of your destroying the Daks?a-yajña, Tripura-sura and the ka-laku-t?a poison? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you. SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma-, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities. For a faithful not a difficult question but then people like you are only stuck in hierarchy problem and thus forget fish incarnation. Again all you are giving is opinion with lot of pain, but I don’t care, this is what Lord Krishna is Saying, in response and i quote again. How may I know You, O Lord, by constant contemplation? In what form are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17) The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19) Says it all really My prominent divine manifestations No not my logic remember I am dumb, but this is what Vedas says and Arjun confirms it. इन्द्रं मित्रं वरुणमग्निमाहुरथो दिव्यः स सुपर्णो गरुत्मान | एकं सद विप्रा बहुधा वदन्त्यग्निं यमं मातरिश्वानमाहुः || indraṃ mitraṃ varuṇamaghnimāhuratho divyaḥ sa suparṇo gharutmān | ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadantyaghniṃ yamaṃ mātariśvānamāhuḥ || "They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutman. To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan." RV (Book 1, Hymn 164.46) vayur yamo 'gnir varunah sasankah prajapatis tvam prapitamahas ca namo namas te 'stu sahasra-krtvah punas ca bhuyo 'pi namo namas te You are Vaayu, Yama, Agni, Varuna, Shashaanka, and Brahmaa as well as the father of Brahmaa. Salutations to You a thousand times, and again and again salutations to You. (11.39)BG Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam There is a strong desire by many to dominate being 'right'. We can see this again and again. Yet many times this 'right' is not built upon personal experience, but by what others have told the individual, or what was taught. With that, there is little flexibility to reason - this is the root of jalpa no doubt 'argumentative debate' with no concern of the outcome - it can bring only this poison. I pray Lord Shiva to save me from this. yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha tasmai rudrAya namo astu Prostrations to that Rudra who exists in fire, water, and air, herbs and all the worlds Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. Yajur Veda i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. Yajur Veda i. 8. 15. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu How can any one take you seriously in what you have to say? Vedas are given to us by Brahma but then you say, <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Brahma, owing to his long life, often gets mixed up with chronology and sometimes, the details of Puranas vary, due to Yuga Bheda. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> If Brahma is prone to make mistake what chance have you got to tell us the truth. Ved Vayas gave us many more puranas he has eulogised Lord Shiva as well as Lord Vishnu, as supreme but no we have to listen to your opinion and kill off Vedic gods. Just contemplate what you write and I quote, <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>For instance Rudra possesses auspiciousness. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> And then you say <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Pramana - Read Shathapatha Brahmana. When Rudra was born, he cried to Brahma, asking him to remove his (Rudra's) sins. Only a jiva has sins. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Can one who is all auspicious be sinful ? only one who has no shame conclude so, this is not my opinion but Bhagvat puran says so SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma-, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities. I take the words of Lord Shree Krishna, when asked by Arjun (Therefore), You alone are able to fully describe Your own divine glories, the manifestations, by which You exist pervading all the universe. (10.16) How may I know You, O Lord, by constant contemplation? In what form are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17) Now you may argue or interpret however you want but is clear to anyone who is honest and neutrals that lord Krishna is responding to this question, and here what he says. The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19) O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20) We all know who brings forward the beginning , middle and end, just for you in case we are reading different Shastra. S.B 8.7.23 O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation. I am Vishnu among the (twelve) sons of Aditi, I am the radiant sun among the luminaries, I am Marici among the gods of wind, I am the moon among the stars. (10.21) I am the Sama Veda among the Vedas; I am Indra among the Devas; I am the mind among the senses; I am the consciousness in living beings. (10.22) Note; indra among devas where do you get jiva? I am Shiva among the Rudras; (I am) Kubera among the Yakshas and demons; I am the fire among the Vasus; and I am Meru among the mountain peaks. (10.23) Kill them off if you like call them jiva but I take Krishna’s words any time no where in Gita he has called them Jiva. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam There is a strong desire by many to dominate being 'right'. We can see this again and again. Yet many times this 'right' is not built upon personal experience, but by what others have told the individual, or what was taught. With that, there is little flexibility to reason - this is the root of jalpa no doubt 'argumentative debate' with no concern of the outcome - it can bring only this poison. I pray Lord Shiva to save me from this. yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha tasmai rudrAya namo astu Prostrations to that Rudra who exists in fire, water, and air, herbs and all the worlds Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. Yajur Veda i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. Yajur Veda i. 8. 15. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu How can any one take you seriously in what you have to say? Vedas are given to us by Brahma but then you say in another thread If Brahma is prone to make mistake what chance have you got to tell us the truth. Ved Vayas gave us many more puranas he has eulogised Lord Shiva as well as Lord Vishnu, as supreme but no we have to listen to your opinion and kill off Vedic gods. Just contemplate what you write and I quote, And then you say Can one who is all auspicious be sinful ? only one who has no shame conclude so, this is not my opinion but Bhagvat puran says so SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma-, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities. I take the words of Lord Shree Krishna, when asked by Arjun (Therefore), You alone are able to fully describe Your own divine glories, the manifestations, by which You exist pervading all the universe. (10.16) How may I know You, O Lord, by constant contemplation? In what form are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17) Now you may argue or interpret however you want but is clear to anyone who is honest and neutrals that lord Krishna is responding to this question, and here what he says. The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19) O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20) We all know who brings forward the beginning , middle and end, just for you in case we are reading different Shastra. S.B 8.7.23 O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation. I am Vishnu among the (twelve) sons of Aditi, I am the radiant sun among the luminaries, I am Marici among the gods of wind, I am the moon among the stars. (10.21) I am the Sama Veda among the Vedas; I am Indra among the Devas; I am the mind among the senses; I am the consciousness in living beings. (10.22) Note; indra among devas where do you get jiva? I am Shiva among the Rudras; (I am) Kubera among the Yakshas and demons; I am the fire among the Vasus; and I am Meru among the mountain peaks. (10.23) Kill them off if you like call them jiva but I take Krishna’s words any time no where in Gita he has called them Jiva. Jai Shree Krishna

For a start we can stop making mistakes and leave it to higher authority. It is very convenient to hide behind kali yuga, there is no bases in Shastra to assign Verna on an individual whims. There is no bases in Shastra, infact Krishna warns us against it as Raghu has already mentioned which I repost here <DIR>Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 18.47 śreyānsva-dharmo viguṇaḥ para-dharmātsv-anuṣṭhitāt svabhāva-niyataḿkarma kurvan nāpnoti kilbiṣam It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one's nature are never affected by sinful reactions. Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 18.59 yadahańkāramāśritya na yotsya itimanyase mithyaiṣa vyavasāyas te prakṛtis tvāḿniyokṣyati If you do not act according to My direction and do not fight, then you will be falsely directed. By your nature, you will have to be engaged in warfare. </DIR>Why did Lord Krishna say it was Arjuna's nature to fight? And that too despite Arjuna offering to give up everything and take to begging? Because Arjuna was born a kshatriya and he was obligated to follow kshatriya dharma. Arjuna did not get promoted to brahmin status because of his compassion for his family. What we think is of no consequence even today if you went to a village we will find different quarters for each varna,that is how vedic society worked, so my point was how would you accommodate different family members it is just not practical. No more than that, family tradition like raghukul rit chali aiyi Kula means lineage, race, family etc. which is more or less ones varna Besides Arjun was concerned for varna Shanker i.e. destruction of his varna. Going by your logic if varna was changed by our whims we may end up with possible four varna in our ancestry therefore the question begs which kula dharma would Arjun was concerned about, do you see the point? Why would I want to do that? Thankfully hindu dharma is not about Proselytization If some one enquires than it is spirituality that would interest them, why would they want to join a varna system. At the end of the day we must transend all the differences The final stage in the matrix of Hindu society is saMnyAsa, which only occurs in the context of brAhmaNa dharma. The brAhmaNa varNa is dedicated to spiritual instruction, and their greatest wisdom is embodied in the Ashrama of saMnyAsa. In saMnyAsa itself, there is no distinction, and the saMnyAsa dIkshA involves the renunciation of varNa and every previous Ashrama ~ indeed, saMnyAsa involves the renunciation of attachment to the three worlds! The highest knowledge of saMnyAsAshrama declares that all men are equal in the eye of god, and that varNa, Ashrama, and ultimately even dharma, are superfluous constructs. But this esoteric wisdom has unfortunately become exoteric dogma in some non-brAhmaNa circles, and the dismissal of varNAshrama dharma is especially favored by aspirants who were born without dvija varNa (by Sarbhnga) Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam It would not have been difficult to work that out, the verse was given with English translation since you queried that verse, I thought it was obvious, here it is any way SB 8.7.24: I said it was important, since it is personal I keep to my self. Coming back to the thread as to who is a Vaishnava, Narsinhmehta sang a great Bhajan in this regards, check it out might just help. II Vaishnav Jan to tene II वैष्णव जन त Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam I would not have entered in to this discussion of who is a vaishnav, it is easy to see there is enough strife and I for one have no appetite for such discussion, but when some one makes a major statement ,not pertaining to actual thread, calling Lord Shiva a mere jiva I could not just stand by. Here is the verse tvaḿ brahma paramaḿ guhyaḿ sad-asad-bhāva-bhāvanam nānā-śaktibhir ābhātas tvam ātmā jagad-īśvaraḥ You are correct there is no Impersonal Brahman but the auther has somehow inserted this, which makes the verse even more important, the auther is none other that Srila Prabhupada, I have no other source of Bhagvatam other then my Gujrati version. As I said I have no desire to enter a debate on Vishu V Shiva on this thread, so if anyone interested could open which already exist. Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam Thankfully it is just your opinion above, as such it don’t count, I take the words of Lord Shree Krishna, when asked by Arjun (Therefore), You alone are able to fully describe Your own divine glories, the manifestations, by which You exist pervading all the universe. (10.16) How may I know You, O Lord, by constant contemplation? In what form are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17) Now you may argue or interpret however you want but is clear to anyone who is honest and neutrals that lord Krishna is responding to this question, and here what he says. The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19) O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20) We all know who brings forward the beginning , middle and end, just for you in case we are reading different Shastra. S.B 8.7.23 O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation. I am Vishnu among the (twelve) sons of Aditi, I am the radiant sun among the luminaries, I am Marici among the gods of wind, I am the moon among the stars. (10.21) I am the Sama Veda among the Vedas; I am Indra among the Devas; I am the mind among the senses; I am the consciousness in living beings. (10.22) Note; indra among devas where do you get jiva? I am Shiva among the Rudras; (I am) Kubera among the Yakshas and demons; I am the fire among the Vasus; and I am Meru among the mountain peaks. (10.23) If that is not enough SB 8.7.24: You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, impersonal Brahman, which is originally Parabrahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation. SB 8.7.25: O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [r?ta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om?, which consists of three letters a-u-m. SB 8.7.26: O father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varun?a, master of the waters, is your tongue. SB 8.7.27: O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head. SB 8.7.28: O lord, you are the three Vedas personified. The seven seas are your abdomen, and the mountains are your bones. All drugs, creepers and vegetables are the hairs on your body, the Vedic mantras like Ga-yatri- are the seven layers of your body, and the Vedic religious system is the core of your heart. SB 8.7.29: O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord S'iva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Parama-tma-. SB 8.7.30: O lord, your shadow is seen in irreligion, which brings about varieties of irreligious creations. The three modes of nature — goodness, passion and ignorance — are your three eyes. All the Vedic literatures, which are full of verses, are emanations from you because their compilers wrote the various scriptures after receiving your glance. SB 8.7.31: O Lord Giri-s'a, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma-, Lord Vis?n?u or the King of heaven, Mahendra. SB 8.7.32: When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. Nonetheless, you do not know how this happens. What then is to be said of your destroying the Daks?a-yajña, Tripura-sura and the ka-laku-t?a poison? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you. SB 8.7.33: Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma-, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities. I can quote a lot more because Sri Vyasdev in his wisdom wrote other Shastra eulogising lord shiva and his shakti as devine but I know its no use. Jai Shree Krishna