Dravidian

<<The aryan invasion can not be proven really. But it can't be unproven either in my opinion. It is all specilation. The vedic people say they have literature that is supposedly 5000 years old or more, but this is all specultaion too. Why is it so important to "prove" the aryan invasion is a myth for the vedic people? Because they want to be somehow superior. It is the same with all religions. They want to convert people and be seen as the "best". It is all just another form of materialism and sectarianism. These anti-aryan-invasion people are simply interested in lording it over others and inflating thier superiority complexes. Ego is thier fuel. I say it is all specultaion, and a complete distaction from genuine spiritual developement. Give it up people! Focus on what matters. Renounce your egos!>> The guest that wrote this appears to be one not indian due the response. How would you feel if outsiders tried to usurp your ways and claim that your ancestors were nothing but tribal ignorants that knew nothing of God before they came along?! Though I may not lash out, it strikes anger in my heart and is insulting. Furthermore, it says nowhere in the Vedic literature to convert people. Hinduism is not about converting people at all, tolerance is a staple feature of following the vedas. None of this would really matter if the AIT was not put forth and held as truth. But falsity has been spoken in such a way that it slanders the heritage and name of a people. Would you not agree that truth must take it's place? We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

I'm glad that this was posted for I was going to do the same thing since there were so many discussions on it. Many scholars now dismiss the AIT. I am a University student and study religion of all kinds, but mostly Vedic religion. The scholars in my philosophy department also dismiss the AIT, and I'm sure the same goes for scholars at many other universities. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

The devatas or demigods were created after to govern over aspects of the universe. They have "jobs" in the universe to fulfill as is there duty or dharma. So God created the demigods. The devatas are part and parcel fo God, just as we are part and parcels also. Even the devatas are trying to realize the ultimate as we are. However, it is said that being human is an advantagious state to reach moksha from. For our existence has the "right" mixture of pain and pleasure so that we may learn what we must to relinquish attachment from both. Where as in the heavens or higher planets the pleasures are so great that even the great devas may become overwhelmed by bliss, if not free from attachment, and become intwined in the pleasures. In doing this they will forget their duties in the universe. This karma causes them to be born as something "lower" like humans so that they may learn to relinquish attachment again and ascend closer to God. The duties of that deva will be filled by another deva or by a being whom has ascended or evolved to that level. This is my understanding of the subject at hand. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong in this. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

I see your dilemma. You have come across an interesting argument. The word "Hindu" has become meaningless to you. However, it is quiet sacred for others. Although the name was given to the Vedic people by outsiders it is not totally meaningless to someone like me, for I still identify with it in some sense. If one were to shout out, "hey, you stupid Hindu", I would still identify with such a statement and be insulted, because they are speaking to me and to people of my "kind" in an injurious manner. In this sense I would defend being "hindu". However, when it comes to sanatana dharma, the word becomes less meaningful. For dharma is beyond the convention of any religion. Thus the meaning of the word of course is nothing without the emphasis the person puts on it. In this way language becomes something that is not able to capture Truth, and only paints a vague portrait in vain. So when one uses words to define things, one must be careful to get the intended point across, for we use words to define words. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no real problem with you holding the word "hindu" as meaningless to you. But you can only claim that it is meaningless to YOU, do not claim that it is also meaningless for others, for you do not know how they relate to it. Thank you for bringing up this topic, for I have gone through that dilemma before and I hope my sharing has helped. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

I as a respectfull reply to your claim, I would like to ask why you think that we have fair Indians as well as dark ones then? As far as our history can interpret, it was dark skinned people that lived in India before lighter skinned peoples, mostly southern. Dark people come from hot places, that is just the way it is. I did not say that the Dravidians are the only Vedic people. The Dharma handed down through the vedas have been given to people of all colours in religions that have come and gone for infinity. It seems that in India that Dravidians are some of the earliest people that have attained it in India, as far as history can tell. I don't see why it would be an insult, we are all Indians regardless. If one follows Dharma that is all that matters. Skin colour is irrelevant. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

We all know that "Aryan" refers to the noble class of the vedic peoples, and perhaps the oldest of them the Dravidians. To my understanding, the reason why the caste system is viewed as racial and induism takes the blasm is because this is the kali-yuga. The caste system has been corrupted and twisted into a system of biggetry today. Originally, as Krishna said, the caste system was a way in which to show people how they best served there communities and peoples. It was one's dharmic duty to serve one's peoples in this way. One belonged to a certain caste based on one's virtues as a person. Nothing to do with skin colour. Do not forget that Krishna and Rama were dark skinned and they were the noblest of the noble. The term Varna or colour refers to the caste system, that is correct. But this does not refer to skin colour, but clour of virtue. When one is white in virtue this means purity and the highest of virtuous people in this world. To this class belonged the Brahmins. But the Brahmins had dark skin as well as light skin. Realize the original intent of the caste system was to provide a practical structure for people to serve one's people not racial agenda. But as the Kali-yuga dwaned and progressed, the caste system became tainted. And the virtuous were not so virtuous as there forefathers of the same caste. It came to pass that one who was born to a Brahmin was also a Brahmin...this is not how the original caste system worked. For a non-virtuous person can be born to virtuous people. So the caste system is now a way to keep one's family on top of the social structure to reap the benefits and oppress the others, for it is near impossible to move up in the caste system of today. Originally one had the right to move up or belong to the caste that one deserved to. It is no wonder that outsiders and perhaps many Hindus see the racism and discrimination in their own ways. This is because the ways are asuric and not dharmic as was originally intended. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

We all know that "Aryan" refers to the noble class of the vedic peoples, and perhaps the oldest of them the Dravidians. To my understanding, the reason why the caste system is viewed as racial and induism takes the blasm is because this is the kali-yuga. The caste system has been corrupted and twisted into a system of biggetry today. Originally, as Krishna said, the caste system was a way in which to show people how they best served there communities and peoples. It was one's dharmic duty to serve one's peoples in this way. One belonged to a certain caste based on one's virtues as a person. Nothing to do with skin colour. Do not forget that Krishna and Rama were dark skinned and they were the noblest of the noble. The term Varna or colour refers to the caste system, that is correct. But this does not refer to skin colour, but clour of virtue. When one is white in virtue this means purity and the highest of virtuous people in this world. To this class belonged the Brahmins. But the Brahmins had dark skin as well as light skin. Realize the original intent of the caste system was to provide a practical structure for people to serve one's people not racial agenda. But as the Kali-yuga dwaned and progressed, the caste system became tainted. And the virtuous were not so virtuous as there forefathers of the same caste. It came to pass that one who was born to a Brahmin was also a Brahmin...this is not how the original caste system worked. For a non-virtuous person can be born to virtuous people. So the caste system is now a way to keep one's family on top of the social structure to reap the benefits and oppress the others, for it is near impossible to move up in the caste system of today. Originally one had the right to move up or belong to the caste that one deserved to. It is no wonder that outsiders and perhaps many Hindus see the racism and discrimination in their own ways. This is because the ways are asuric and not dharmic as was originally intended. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

Let me put an end to this discussion once and for all. I am tired of people throwing the term Aryan around and bastardizing the true meaning of it. The term "Aryan" refers to the noble class of the Dravidian peoples. Krishna and Rama were both Dravidian....dark skinned. The Dravidians are a Black people with straight to curly hair. Some Tamils are still very much pure Dravidians. Aryan simply refers to the nobility who have an understanding of dharmic principles. It really has nothing to do with the skin colour. I mention skin colour here with Aryan to refer to perhaps the oldest people we know of to originally use the term, the Dravidians. As people of lighter skin immigrated into India, they also became apart of the peoples who accepted dharmic laws. The mingling of skin created a variety of skin colours from dark brown or black to lighter brown to the lightest brown or white. Those who can accept dharmic law and be noble by it's standards are Aryan. End of story! My Aryan brothers and sisters are not of one skin colour, but of those that express the virtues of dharma. DOn't let white supremacy full one into thinking that being white is aryan....that is utter nonsense and an insult to the Aryan heritage. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

I respect your ideal for tolerance, it is definitely a dharmic principle. But there is a limit to that tolerance. Just as the Pandavas could not tolerate the Kurava's threat to dharma neither can we. The Kuravas also worshiped God as the Pandavas did. But they were still cultivating asuric qualities. So that is there businiess to cultivate whatever qulities they want...agreed...ok. But when one's freedom of religion or expression of self, impinges upon anothers freedom to do the same, then they have broken the law that they themselves enjoy so much. They use the law of freedom to pursue religion, but use the same law to oppress the freedom of others to do the same. This cannot be tolerated and must be dealt with by force, for nothing else may be understood. Of course force is the last resort, for ALL other avenues must be pursued first. But if it comes to force, then so be it. Just as Arjuna had to in the end. It seems you may be dealing with the same dillemma in some sense. Himsa is never appealing, but never forget the qualities of God such as Kalki, Narashima, Rudra, Kali, Durga, Skantha...emphasizing that there is a time for force. The wisdom in a dharmic student is to know when to use it. Whether you disagree that this is a time for force or not may be a valid argument. But you must see that force is a required element at times. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

You replied to my translation of the gayatri mantra. You believe that the line about "Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light;" is "not so right". Forgive me, perhaps it is my intellect, however, i still do not understand what it is you really said in your reply to me about the mantra. I do not believe in a Knowledge and Light higher than God. I don't think that I said or implied this in any way. If I have please show me how, and accept my apologee. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

I feel for your heart felt question. I think you have the right idea about following Krishna. The word "hindu" was given to the people of the Sindhu valley by outsiders...it was not even the indians who gave themselves the name. To my understanding it was the Persians that called us so. Even Krishna says in the Gita that it does not matter what you call yourself religiously....hindu, muslim, christian, jewish, etc. All that matters is that you follow Rita, the dharma set by God, and this is the underlying spirituality beyond all religion. To classify yourself is actually quiet ignorant on a higher level. We only make classificatios to understand the world and communicate through the vagueness of spoken language. As others have said Krishna is beyond religion and convention. It is we humans that make these classification because we are stuck in the maya of duality, discriminations and structures. We need these definitions because we believe we are lost without them. There will come a time when we will outgrow them. Just as Krishna says that the Gita will become useless to those that realize the Truth that the Gita points to. Do not mistake the sign for the Truth for the Truth itself. But until then we must work with what we have and continue to grow. Slowly outgroing conceptions and structures. Until one's consciousness is expansive enough to realize that one is a part and parcel of God. Blessings dear Sirona, you have just as much right to worship Krishna as any deva. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

Vanakam....Greetings to you also my brother!

I thin kyou misinterpret what Maahdav has said. Although I do not speak for Maahdav, I think that sanatana dharma is the underlying spirituality beyond all convention...this includes religion. As convention it falls under definition as Hinduism or whatever religion that can uphold such ideals. To me Hinduism has become a religion in somw ways. And dharma is rita, the law of the universe or the divine will. Such things are beyond our petty language...but I will still profess to defend what I believe to be the closest convention to it. For it is a guide for me and others until I and they outgrow it and find sanatana dharma. No convention can teach me this, but can be a stepping stone of sorts. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

I agree with Maahdav. I wrote a similar but less eliquent message on the matter before. With my qualities I would be a kshatriya and I would bow before a Brahmana who would have me as a disciple. I bow before God Krishna and Lord Shiva. Whether on the battlefield, or on this site I would defend the honor of sanatana dharma, as is the duty of all hindus. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

From what I have come to understand, there is has been arceological evidence for some time now that points out that the Aryan invasion is falsity. The theory is crumbling and not taken seriously among scholars today. In an attempt to "save" the bogus theory those that have put it forth have changed the theory to the "Aryan migration theory" to look somewhat scholarly instead of as white supramasists. If one wants to look this up please refer to Hindu Universe, and the article written by Dr. Frawley. There has been cultural and racial imperialism that has infected the history telling of the human race for a long time. I wish people would stop trying to steal the glory of other civilizations. There is no need for that unless one is insecure of there heritage. It is apparent that "lighter skinned" people came to India eventually, but to say that they conqured is the existing peoples is quiet a large assumption that is not reasoned well. Evidence in the Mahabarata points out that there was a large war, that was very advanced technologically. The warriors used nuclear weapons, lightening weapons, fire, water and earth weapons. Lasers, and light beams, flying vehicles and ships were also used. Those which are called arrows were actually missiles. The sanskrit word "vimana", literally translates into airplane in english. Archeological evidence today points out that there is an unusually high level of radiation in the Northern parts of India where this great war would have taken place. And the ancient Indian cities which are now in the coutries of Iraq and Iran were stricken by a nuclear fall out. The ancient massive fortresses and buildings which are buried now, are singed and glazed over due to what only extreme heat could have done. evidence of skeletons of people in the streets just seemed to have dropped dead, consistent with a nuclear fall out. Here is a quote from the Mahabarata: "Gurkha flying in his swift and powerful Vimana hurled against the three cities of the Vrishis and Andhakas a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and fire, as brilliant as ten thousands suns, rose in all its splendour. It was the unknown weapon, the Iron Thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas." There are also evidence of highly advanced technology in the Ramayana. I didn't want to make this too long but there are many other quotes if anyone is interested I will post them. If poeple were to conquer the Indians, it would be after this great war that wiped out so many of our cities and peoples, leaving us weak for invasion. However, there are still theories that claim that these weapons and vimanas are still around, guarded by a secret order of Indians. Supposed UFO sightings are associated with these vimanas. However I doubt that the Indian peoples were conquered so dramatically. I believe it was a slow process, and the attacks of many different peoples have taken over India. Hence the variety of religion and physical features in the people today. In any case the Aryan Invasion Theory is bogus. The Aryans are not white, not originally anyway. Aryan is The Dravidian noble class, which later enveloped the Hindu noble class. Overtime, the caste system became prejudice and discriminatory, dur to the Kali-Yuga, and the lighter skinned peoples where the Aryans (Brahmins, some Ksatriyas). The orginal caste sytem was based on the virtues of the individual...higher virtues higher class. The term Varnas referred to colour in virtue not skin. White being pure in virtue and character. So it is said by Krishna. One was a certain clas because of one's characteristics, not because of whom they were born to. One was able to move up and down the caste system as their virtues deemed. The caste system today is a mockery and basterdization of what it was in purer times. It has become tainted and lacks integrity. As a Hindu and a Dravidian, I refuse to let cultural and racial imperialists taint and spread propaganda into and about my heritage and peoples. It is the duty of all Hindus to protect and profess the truth as they know best. If I am wrong on any of these accounts, please accept my humble apologee in advance to any I have offended. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

What you say sparks some interest. From what I have come to understand, The Aryan's are the noble class of the Dravidian people. It really has nothing to do with "white" or caucasian people. Overtime the term was basterdized by white supremasists to say that they are the noble race (Hitler). The Word comes from the Dravidian language and root word Arya wich means noble. The Dravidians are a black people with curly to staright hair, and were an advanced civilization that spread from South India (around present day Kerala) to Sri Lanka and to the North of India, in those times up to present day Iraq. Of course there were people of "other" phsyical feature that also inhabited these parts at this time also especially in the North. From what I have read of scholars, they could have been the most original people of India as far as our history records can assume. The Dravidians also spread to Africa, and are related to present day Ethiopians. If you look at a Tamil and an Ethiopian the features are quiet similar...indicative of common ancestory. There are also theories on how Dravidian languages like Tamil, Telegu, Malayali, etc. are older than Sanskrit and are foundations for Sanskrit. So from what I understand, "Aryan" is a very old term, and it was used as a class title, nothing to do with race, or colour. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

preserving our ways is of utmost significance, but at the sametime we must also learn and grow. Hinduism will change and grow on this planet if we believe it can and act with that respect. As for those religions that are trying to wipe us out, there are those that are trying, that is just a fact we must face. Such religions are a contradiction to their own beliefs. Muslims are supposed to be tolerant of others according to the Koram. And according to Christianity flesh is not to toil with flesh. According to Hinduism, ahisma is emphasized, as the great Mahatma emphasized. However, in the Gita it says that one must do what is necessary. Doing what is necessary is an act that does not acrue karma and is the highest act. Just as Arjuna and Krishna, and Rama fought the unrightious, so too must we protect rightiousness. Those Supposed Christians and Muslims that would try to wipe out Hindus are Hypocrites to their own faith. And those Hindus that would fight in vain are a shame to their ancestors and heritage. Hindus must remain strong and united, we have a great and proud lineage. We must also recognize that people of other religions are our brothers and sisters. But those that attack us vainly shall not be delt with kindly, they have forsaken that right. This is just my personal convictions. We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect.

I write this with respect and no animosity. If one does not know that is fine, but do not imply that others do not know also. All you can really calim is that YOU do not know. According to Vedanta one can Know...anyone who searches shall find. There have been those that have come to know the Truth in the past and there are those who will come to Know in the future. But I would like to ask a question of you, why do you believe that one doesn't (or cannot) know? "We meditate on the glory of the Creator; Who has created the Universe; Who is worthy of Worship; Who is the embodiment of Knowledge and Light; Who is the remover of all Sin and Ignorance; May He enlighten our Intellect."

Brahman is beyond conception and atman is soul. But when Brahman is realized, Atman and Brahaman are identicle. They are one and the same both only understood in some kind of experience beyond convention.