stonehearted

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

This verse is part of a mangalacana (Vidagdha-madhava 1.2), and not actually part o the work itself. As you might be aware, in magalacarana the author use to praise his guru and guru-varga with statements like that, meaning only the guru is as good as Hari Himself.

 

 

Stone: This is getting really weird. Once again, Satya asks Audarya to show where Rupa has "state that Caitanya was an avatar," and once again he is shown where, but he ignores it because it's only part of a mangalacarana. Anyone who still thinks such a discussion can ever be resolved should think again.

Satya, as is his right, has openly rejected the Gaudiya line of devotion because he finds the rationalism of sruti more attractive. That's fine. Our attitide is more in line with Krishna das, who responds to Satyaraja's inquiry as to how we can accept someone as a worshipable Deity without logic and argument in this way: "If you are indeed interested in logic and argument, kindly apply it to the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. If you do so, you Swill find it to be strikingly wonderful. f one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting."

Satyaraja prefers another line of thought. That's fine for him, but it should be clear that no one here is likely to overpower him and convert him back.

Babhru das

Originally posted by Bhakta Don Muntean:

If I sound Pompus and Emotional to you it is only a 'Reflecting of what your are Projecting' to the World.....

Stone: My, my . . . we're a little worked up, aren't we? I thought the postings on this board were supposed to be civil. So far, Don, you've shown a talent for name calling, which isn't a very mature way to discuss things. Now you've resorted to a fancy form of the tu quoque fallacy. No chance that anything you say could be even a little mistaken occasionally?

Is our moderator asleep at the keyboard, or can we write any damned thing about each other as long as we include a quotation from the VedaBase somewhere in our posting?

Originally posted by Bhakta Don Muntean:

If I sound Pompus and Emotional to you it is only a 'Reflecting of what your are Projecting' to the World.....

Stone: My, my . . . we're a little worked up, aren't we? I thought the postings on this board were supposed to be civil. So far, Don, you've shown a talent for name calling, which isn't a very mature way to discuss things. Now you've resorted to a fancy form of the tu quoque fallacy. No chance that anything you say could be even a little mistaken occasionally?

Is our moderator asleep at the keyboard, or can we write any damned thing about each other as long as we include a quotation from the VedaBase somewhere in our posting?

Here's a cute quotation addressing the limitations of "science."

"Science does not know how we learn and remember, nor how we think

and communicate, nor how the brain stores information, nor what the

relationship between language and thought is. Science does not know how

living cells interact with nonliving matter. It does not know what the

origin of the universe is, nor how old the universe is, not what the

ultimate fate of the universe will be."

[Charles M. Vest, professor, president of MIT, in the International Herald

Tribune, January 16, 1996, p.8]

Stone: The moral: There's a difference, boys and girls, between science, the pursuit of knowledge, and scientism, the belief that the explanatory method used by natural science is the only way to know anything worth knowing. Jurgen Habermas calls this "science's belief in itself: that is, the conviction that we can no longer understand science as one form of possible knowledge, but rather must identify knowledge with science."

Originally posted by leyh:

Audarya:

Why waste your time with Satyaraja dasa? In the Narada Bhakti Sutras,Narada Muni instructs that:"One should not indulge in argumentative debate." (Sutra 74) It seems clear that Satyaraja dasa is only interested in egoistic arguments.Don't take his bait...

 

Stone: I'm with leyh here. This is precisely the sort of argument that will not be resolved. Satyaraja's approach is (probably admittedly) antithetical to that of the Gaudiyas, which is beyond mundane reason. Moreover, he keeps changing the rules of his little challenges to Audarya for proof from Rupa that Chaitanya is Krishna Himself: first he asks where Rupa "states" this; when Audarya answered that, S. castigates him for not having shown where Rupa has "written" this; then, when Audarya shows him some place where Rupa has written such a statement, S. rejects that because it's in the mangalacharana and therefore not acceptable evidence, since (apparently) such statements are inherently hyperbolic in nature.

No matter what anyone writes, Satyaraja will change the rules so he "wins." Since his hubris has moved him to reject Gaudiya siddhanta and pramana, perhaps his efforts to bolster his jnani's identity would be more fruitful elsewhere.

We strive, our acharyas tell us, for jnana-sunya bhakti.

Babhru das

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

 

Unfortunately, due to our small size it is often difficult to create programs to engage these children. Something like the Boy Scouts (or Girl Scouts) would be good, but it really isn't very practical with just a handful of kids.

 

Stone: Actually, when San Diego temple was full of devotees in the early '90s, Sarvasatya had a Boy Scouts troop for devotee boys.

 

Originally posted by JRdd:

You're welcome!

 

I have a general question. It was always my understanding that the basil we use in cooking is a totally different (but related) plant from the tulasi plant. . . . But I noticed on the Internet in places (not among those I posted the links to) it talks of tulasi as being basil. I can not believe this.

 

Stone: It's misunderstanding, nothing more. Because it's classified by botanists as a "basil," materialists see little distinction. I've seen basil plants sold in stores as "Sacred Basil" or "Holy Basil." They're mislabeled, that's all. I have seen Indian members worship basil plants (perhaps puchased at grocery stores) as Tulasi; this past May, some Indian folks brought a pile of basil leaves to a Bhumi-puja for the future San Diego ISKCON center. "We have brought some Tulasi," they said as they handed the plate full of basil leaves to me. I smiled an thanked them, wanting to honor their intention, but since I've served tulasi for 32years, I'd never offer those leaves to my sila as though they were Tulasi.

 

JRdd: On the other hand, now I am also wondering if the medicinal qualities of tulasi are also in the basil plant?

 

Stone: I seriously doubt it. There's a "health bar" marketed by one of the "blood-type" diet gurus with "ocimum sanctum" in it (the one for type A blood--and I'd never buy them), not ocimum gratissimum. I recently visited an old friend (whose son was one of my first gurukula students in Honolulu) whose boyfriend is a tea conoisseur. He had a tea whose ingredients incuded ocimum sanctum. (I declined to drink some.) If sweet basil had the same properties as Tulasi, they'd be interchangeable. A very rough analogy may be cannabis; one variety is high in THC, while the other has a negligible amount. I'm sure the plants look very similar, but their properties are different.

Last year I harvested so much basil and tried to grow it this year in my new home, and have this intense love for basil, without remembering its relationship to tulasi, so I am wondering if my often ailing body is craving its medicinal qualitiies.

 

Jayaradhe

Originally posted by jndas:

It is likely a case of some village criminal making bombs nearby to the Mayapur temple property (which is hundreds of acres).

 

Stone: This is certainlya possibility.

 

jndas: Everyone in Navadvipa is named 'Das', it means nothing.

 

Stone: wouldn't it be more accurate to say that many people in Navadvipa are named "Das"?

 

jn: The fact that the police state these people had past criminal records make it clear that they are just local Navadvipa criminals.

Stone: I'm not sure I see how that's self-evident here. Do you mean to imply that someone with a criminal record could obviously not be an ISKCON member? I'm sorry, but I've been around too long to buy that one.

I have some experience with Tulasi, since I grew the first Tulasi plants in ISKCON (perhaps in the west--Govinda dasi planted the first Tulasis around Gaura-purnima of 1970, but I cared for them--some of which exceeded 7 /12 feet within two years--until I left for South America in 1973). In '73, some devotees in Honolulu were making Tualsi tea for medicinal purposes (we had so much Tulasi!). When Srila Prabhupada heard about it, he ordered that they stop immediately. He said that Tualsi was not to be heated. He would make sun tea by putting manjaris in a jar of water and letting it sit for a while, sometimes in the sun.

Babhru das

I was thinking recently about Brahma's stealing Krishna's friends and calves. Every day, as the boys headed out to care for the calves, Yashoda would admonish Balaram to keep His little brother out of trouble. However, one day Baladeva stayed at home for His birthday rituals. That day, Brahma stole the boys and calves, and Krishna replaced them with Vishnu-tattva duplicates. Baladeva, intrigued by the increased affection the cows and parents of Vraja showed for their offspring over the next year, guessed that Krishna must be up to something. When He finally asked Krishna about the wonderful events, Krishna explained everything to Him. A year later, with Balaram again staying behind for His birthday, Brahma came to see the results of his mischief. When he realized the truth of Krishna's position, he fell at Krishna's feet and bathed them with tears of ecstasy.

Krishna is very playful, very cool.

Babhru das

Originally posted by melvin:

THEY SAY THAT TRUTH IS STRANGER

THAN SCIENCE FICTION. HENCE, IF

YOU BELIEVE IN TELEPROMPTING

 

Stone: I do believe in teleprompting; it has made many presidents (especially GW) look good. And, as someone who grew up reading science fiction, I also find the prospect of teleportation great fun.

One hting all must concede about "Forbidden Archeology" is that it has not been ignored, as evidenced by Drutakarma's follow-up book. He has given presentations at scientific conferences around the world, and the book has beenboth reviled and lauded by folks with respectable credentials. Most recently, he has given this report:

"I have just received a nice letter from Ana C. Martins, vice president of

the Portuguese Association of Archeologists. I presented a paper on the

"forbidden archeology of the European Paleolithic" in a section organized

by her for the 1999 European Association of Archeologists annual

conference in Bournemouth, England. She tells me that the paper is being

published in a conference proceedings volume by British Archaeological

Reports at the end of November. Also, she has asked me to be co-organizer

with her of a session on history of archaeology for the World

Archaeological Congress to be held in June 2003 in Washington, DC."

He andSadaputa have successfully planted what many call a "media virus," which replicates itself in many places and forms.

A further innovation is the mridangas made by Pavamana das in San Diego. He has worked out a way of stringing leather heads on fiberglass shells, so you have durability and the (I believe) superior sound of the leather drum heads. As much as I appreviate the Balarama drums, I still prefer clay khols.

A further innovation is the mridangas made by Pavamana das in San Diego. He has worked out a way of stringing leather heads on fiberglass shells, so you have durability and the (I believe) superior sound of the leather drum heads. As much as I appreviate the Balarama drums, I still prefer clay khols.

This is a potentially wonderful thread. I'm also disappointed that there haven't been any responses--real responses in the same mood, where the writer tries to share some appreciation for Krishna's name, form, qualities and pastimes. I was hoping to drink some nectar. Instead, I'm getting something else when I click on this thread. That means I'm going to have to take time out from thinking I'm a teacher act as if I were a devotee by bringing some Krishna meditations of my own to the table. How dare you folks put me in such a position?

Originally posted by Tarun:

Oh! Oh! 2 paramahaMsa birds with one zalagram-zIla stone.

Are you the same Hawaii-Babhru Bhadri-NArAyan spoke to me of?

I'll email you. Hariharibol!

Stone: Yes, probably. I'm the only Babhru I know of, especially from Hawaii. I look forward to hearing from you.

I just received an email from Mani-manjari's husband in forming me that she passed away yesterday just after noon. The devotees from San Diego's Gaudiya Math temple preformed the ritual preparation for cremation. Now nothing will obstruct her kirtan ecstasy.

Babhru

Tarun, their email address is shommani@hotmail.com

Babhru

Originally posted by Tarun:

Speaking of Manjaris, Mani-manjari dd is very ill.

She may be leaving her body very soon.

She's very young. Only around 27.

She's so so talented.

Looking at her externally, you'd never ever guess.

I've been fortunate to have performed kIrtan & bhajan with so many.

All around, she was/is one of the very, very best.

Like Baseball's Triple Crown Winner.

Few and far between.

Maybe she's in/near San Diego?

 

Stonehearted: I saw Mani-manjari often before I left San Diego. They were living in a motor home, sort of taking things easy. Syam didn't mention that she was ill again (she had an eye removed because of cancer a few years ago). I'll see if I can dig up their email address for you. If you like, you can send me your email address (to williamr@hawaii.edu) and, if I can find it, I'll send it to you.

 

She is indeed one of the most enthusiastic and energetic people you'd ever see in kirtan.

 

Babhru das

I hope my comments above didn't sound cruel or merciless. I was trying to explain why some devotees may have seemed to respond impatiently to Sanjay's "What if . . . ?" inquiries. I also did not intend to excuse any rudeness, but to share an insight into possible motives.

Originally posted by FaithlessDevotee:

Doesn;t anyone have mercy in this thread?

Stonehearted (which would indicate that I'm obviously excluded): That would depend on how you define mercy. You should be aware that the culture in which most participants here perceives both blind following and absurd inquiry are perceived as essentially useless. I don't use "absurd" to insult you, but to point out that the questions you've asked in this thread seem incongruous, even unreasonable. To many here, they sound like, "What if water were stone?"

As far as a lack of mercy here, I remember that a couple of weeks ago many posted messages meant to encourage you. You certainly seem to have become emboldened, and your posts seem to have taken a turn we may not have expected earlier this month.

If your intention in asking these questions is to challenge our faith, please note that many of us have endured challenges beyond anything you can probably imagine right now. If it's to confide your misgivings, this may not be the right place. If you want to know whether Krishna consciousness is genuine, you need to make the experiment yourself. Ultimately, it's a subjective experience. The proper way to perform the experiment, according to Lord Krishna, is to find a vaishnava in whom you have confidence and practice sahdana bhakti under his (or her) guidance. It's quite practical; if someone wants a good education, the standard practice is to find a good teacher and study under his or her guidance. The teacher will help you when you run into difficulty. The formula Krishna gives in Chapter 4, verse 34 of Bhagavad-gita is submission and service. Why not give it a try?

Babhru das

Originally posted by Tarun:

11th Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Get Caught

If ignorant public & media ever find out who really downed Manhattan's Twin Towers...

Nah! They won't get caught.

They won't get caught because it's so obvious.

So obvious that everyone (almost everyone)is determined to remain illusioned by it.

Kaliyuga is so so amazing. So amazing.

Duh, maybe we should have a Warren-type Commission to investigate?

They did such a great job back in Nov'63.

Why not hire'em again?

Oh, man--Oswald did this, too? I would have sworn I saw him get shot to death on TV in '63.

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

I wasn't offended, nor do I equate the sankirtan movement with the mundane hippie/commie peaceniks. I just needed an excuse to post some humor...

 

Stone: And we're glad you did! But this leaves me wondering a couple of things. One is how the heck do you do this (get the cartoons into yoru posts)? The other is amazement that you're here. I understood you were riding out to kill bad guys. One of my old gurukula students is a a Navy SEAL. The last time I saw him was a couple of years ago, when he was teaching at their jump shool in Arizona. I've lost touch with him, so I'm not sure where he is or what he's up to.

 

And, speaking of SEALs, a true story of Sept. 11:

 

My older daughter, who works and studies in San Diego, has a 6:30 am swim class at Mesa College. Among the students in that class were a couple of SEALs. Krishnamayi doesn't have a TV and whenshe gets up at 4:00 am, she chants japa and serves her Jagannath Deities, then hps on her bicycle and rides the 7 miles (mostly uphill) to school. So she had no idea of what had happened in NYC and Virginia when she went to swim class. In the middle of class, a couple of uniformed SEALs came and pulled their shipmates out of the pool. One of them approached the instructor and said, "Ma'am, you need to drop them from this class."

 

RandOM: sankirtan yagna ki jai!

Stone: Megadittoes from Hawaii!

Babhru

Tarun, if you like, write me privately at williamr@hawaii.edu

Originally posted by Tarun:

Jan1999, on Watseka Bhadri approached me & said,

"You know Babhru? He mentioned how he recalls you from..."

I remember your name; can't recall your visage.

Hmmm. . . now I'm really puzzled. Is Tarun your real name? I know two Taruns: Tarun Kanti, an old friend from my brahmacari days (and later, householder days, too--he and his wife are old friends, and their kids are both 3 weeks older than our kids) and Tarun Krishna, whom I met in Mexico City in 1973. So are you Tarun Krishna? If so, I can't imagine what I might have said to Badri, except that I had met you a long time ago and admired your preaching in Mexico.

Babhru

Originally posted by Tarun:

Babhru: r u the same Babhru who spoke to Bhadri-Narayan in Hawaii?

 

Well, I've spoken to Badrinarayan many times, but not in Hawaii that I can remember. I lived in San Diego for several years and just moved back to Hawaii in August. Badri and I have been friendly for a long time (our daughters were friends). When was I supposed to have spoken with him in Hawaii? And what did I say?

 

And as far as I know, I'm the only Babhru, although I've heard that Harikesh had a disciple named Babhru in Moscow