stonehearted

Originally posted by nachiketa2:

How do you give a rational explanation to non-devotees or even vegetarians why you abstain from onions, garlic, caffiene, etc. By rational I mean not quoting from SB or Gita, saying Krishna says so, or that it increases the mode of passion and ignorance. Especially when talking to non-Indians and westerners who have never heard of Krishna, most of them just get turned off.

 

Why can't you just tell them you don't care for them? (In fact, I've never liked coffee, so I never had to give it up.) That's what I've done for 33 years. People don't often ask us to explain taste. Same with meat, fish, and eggs, as well as drink. I just tell people who ask that I've been a lacto-vegetarian since 1969, and that I stopped drinking about the same time. Most people won't raise a fuss about not drinking (maybe I'm a recovering alcoholic), and your taste for other things can be easily dealt with.

Originally posted by ram:

Stonehearted, I have respect for Raga and would not insult anyone unnecessarily. For records, Raga and I are running a 108 post thread without silly mudslinging even though we disagree on issues. You may see for yourself, "niyamas of bhakti yoga". If Raga were to say that she is lifting the saree and try to defend it, I will react differently. But like a gentleman he says that it does not seem like that to him and I see no reason why I should fight. But I am pointing out what in my opinion is wrong in the picture. No one says it is a veil including Raga himself and this picture is therefore wrong as per gaudiya vaishnava literature. It has to be redone. I beg that you see that point atleast. I am not an artist and am not asking for a job -

 

After Raga gave his explanation, I again looked at the picture. But I could not see it his way. I had others look at it and got multiple answers like this group - but no one said it is a veil. Karthik sees it as lifting of bottoms much like I do. I am sure there will be 100 other people who would do that. This gives a chance to talk ill of GVV and sanatana dharma at large.

Fair enough. I understand your objection better than before; however, I was more than just surprised that anyone would see such a thing in that picture.

Yes, the "niyamas" thread is a model of civility. Thanks to you and raga.

Originally posted by ram:

Stonehearted, I have respect for Raga and would not insult anyone unnecessarily. For records, Raga and I are running a 108 post thread without silly mudslinging even though we disagree on issues. You may see for yourself, "niyamas of bhakti yoga". If Raga were to say that she is lifting the saree and try to defend it, I will react differently. But like a gentleman he says that it does not seem like that to him and I see no reason why I should fight. But I am pointing out what in my opinion is wrong in the picture. No one says it is a veil including Raga himself and this picture is therefore wrong as per gaudiya vaishnava literature. It has to be redone. I beg that you see that point atleast. I am not an artist and am not asking for a job -

 

After Raga gave his explanation, I again looked at the picture. But I could not see it his way. I had others look at it and got multiple answers like this group - but no one said it is a veil. Karthik sees it as lifting of bottoms much like I do. I am sure there will be 100 other people who would do that. This gives a chance to talk ill of GVV and sanatana dharma at large.

Fair enough. I understand your objection better than before; however, I was more than just surprised that anyone would see such a thing in that picture.

Yes, the "niyamas" thread is a model of civility. Thanks to you and raga.

Originally posted by krishnas:

A piece of advice: calling someone "petty" and "petulant" isn't likely to be too favorable to cultivating Krishna consciousness. Don't sink to hurling character attacks at me.

I spent quite a bit of time composing a point-by-point response, but I apparently lost it when I went back to look at the beginning of the thread.

Essentially, I said that if you were to read my note carefully, I didn't attack your character or person anywhere. I called into question the contentious nature of your argument (there are other, sometimes more effective, ways to argue, unless the only objective is to "win"). I also asked what biases you think are so obvious in my remarks. A bias against Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati? Show me the evidence, sir. I've never been accused of that one before. Personal sympathies? For whom? Ive neve met Jagat, raga, or Rati, as far as I know. I have not rejected BSST's line ; in fact, I really appreciate the reformist/revolutionary approach to preaching sparked by Bhaktivinoda and carried by Bhaktisiddhanta. I think that for any of us to try to meddle in affairs between BSST and Lalita Prasada is a huge mistake. However, it seems that LP's appraoach would have left me in the dark. I have access to any light only because Srila Prabhupada was inspired by BVT and SBSST to come and insist that we consider the teachings of Lord Chaitanya.

I will try hard to avoid writing anything here that may appear critical of you; if I slip, accept my gratitude in advance for your rebukes in response.

This is indeed a famous story among Gaudiya vaishnavas; I heard it 30 years ago, as a member of ISKCON. And if you look carefully at the picture, it's clear she's holding a separate piece of cloth over Das Gosvami's head.

I'm as concerned as raga that ram would see something unseemly in this picture. Soem folks are so locked in self-righteous sectarianism that everyone who's not part of their party is suspect. And I'm even more concerned by ram's reluctance to accept raga's explanation.

However innocently these threads begin, they too quickly degenerate into name-calling and insults. This is low-class behavior in any company; in the company of vaishnavas (and anyone whose faith is so tender that he or she can't see anyone not part of their own group as a vaishnava would better spend their time trying to improve their chanting rather than fiddling around on these forums)it risks sadhu-ninda, and there are probably reasons why this is the first offense against the holy name.

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 06-03-2002).]

This is indeed a famous story among Gaudiya vaishnavas; I heard it 30 years ago, as a member of ISKCON. And if you look carefully at the picture, it's clear she's holding a separate piece of cloth over Das Gosvami's head.

I'm as concerned as raga that ram would see something unseemly in this picture. Soem folks are so locked in self-righteous sectarianism that everyone who's not part of their party is suspect. And I'm even more concerned by ram's reluctance to accept raga's explanation.

However innocently these threads begin, they too quickly degenerate into name-calling and insults. This is low-class behavior in any company; in the company of vaishnavas (and anyone whose faith is so tender that he or she can't see anyone not part of their own group as a vaishnava would better spend their time trying to improve their chanting rather than fiddling around on these forums)it risks sadhu-ninda, and there are probably reasons why this is the first offense against the holy name.

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 06-03-2002).]

krishnas writes:

"My acceptance or rejection is based on that evidence, and on the assumption that each of you is representing your respective traditions properly. Jagat can choose to be unconvinced, but without addressing the specifics, I have no reason to believe that he has any good reason to disagree. "

This attitude demonstrates a problem in argumentation that pervades devotees' interactions as well. We seem to love dichotomies, and we blithely assert that anyone who does not accept our version (of anything) in toto, and who doesn't surrender absolutely to our supererior understanding, is necessarily motivated by ignorance, obsticacy, or worse. We refuse to see beyond the zero-sum model, even in discussion among Gaudiya vaishnavas. This attitude makes it hard for us to really hear from and learn form each other.

I have a lot to say on this but little time at the moment. Regarding the specific complaint, that Jagat hasn't explained to K's satisfaction why he's unmoved by his own and jn's points, souuds petty and petulant. In fact, Jagat has explained his perspectives quite clearly; the fact that K can't accept that there may be different perspectives on a points shows the limits of his experience with our line of thought and feeling.

I'm not here often, largely because I find the contentious nature of most discussions annoying and distracting from my real business, which is finding company conducive to my attempts to cultivate Krishna consciousness.

Please pardon me if I come off like a crabby old scold. I don't mean to be offensive.

Originally posted by Sarasvati:

The sad reason that Iskcon kids don't go to gurukulas (usually) any more is that there was abuse that took place in so many of them. Parents are scared to send their kids away. I know I am. Another obvious reason is that there aren't many gurukulas left.

Yes, this is not even a controversial point. I know that, even back then, our kids only went to gurukulas my wife and I either managed, taught in, or both. I'd be even more cautious now.

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

On Wai Lana yoga, I do believe she has some connection with Srila Siddhaswarupananda. I've seen her program on PBS a few times, and I have heard various devotional kirtans played in the background. I once visited her website, and there was a mention that she was collaborating with 'Siddha' on some music CDs.

I just checked out her Web site. "Gold Moon Productions"? There's a big clue right there. I listened to the RealAudio samples of some of the cuts from her CDs. One, "Spritual Love," on the first CD, is a dead giveaway to anyone who has had any association with Siddhasvarupananda (mine goes back to 1969-70, before he joined ISKCON). The tune is what I believe we used to call the "Kauai tune." The pronunciation of "Madhava" is classic Siddha. And I do believe that you can hear Siddhasvarupananda's sweet voice chanting (mahak, am I correct?). The Web site is awfully well designed and complete, and she has an entire industry built around her. This is further evidence that his folks, as jn said earlier, have things very much together. Their endeavors show great diversity seamlessly integrated.

Ironically, I don't think PBS in Hawaii carries her show.

With regard to an assertion on another forum, Siddhasvarupananda was never a member of ISKCON's GBC. However, in 1976, Srila Prabhupada did ask him to assume the responsibility of Honolulu temple president. Siddha asked me (among other friends, I assume) what I thought of the idea. I thought he could be effective if the other "wheels" could check their politics. As it turned out, they couldn't; they made things so miserable for him immediately that he declined the post. He had ideas for preaching, and, regardless of the strength of his desire to please Srila Prabhupada (and it was considerable), they were carried out most effectively unencumbered by the bureaucracy and politics so prevalent in the institution.

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 05-16-2002).]

I taught in two gurukulas over a period of several years and ran a gurukula (Honolulu, Hawaii, 1979-84). My wife also taught at three gurukulas over several years and managed one for seven years (San Diego, California). I think it may be fine to have an ashram program for local devotees' kids who want such training, if the community has, and can and will support, qualified teachers. The parents are responsible for delivering their, but if they can enlist qualified devotees to help by training the children, and can maintain a close, loving relationship with their kids, everything should work well. That's not how most gurukulas worked 20+ years ago, though. And it's not what Srila Prabhupada indicated he wanted either. See his purport to SB 2.2.30, for example, where he writes, "Five thousand years ago, when the social status of human society was in perfect Vedic order, the yoga process mentioned herein was a common affair for everyone because everyone, and especially the brahmana and ksatriya, was trained in the transcendental art under the care of the spiritual master far away from home, in the status of brahmacarya.") This is a tricky proposal, though, and it will probably be a long time before anyone tries to set up an ashram-style gurukula in the US.

theist, don't worry about my name (you indicated some uneasiness with using it on a now-closed thread). It works on at least two levels. One is a simple admission of my materialistic inclination, which renders me insensitive to others' needs. Another is my aspiration that my heart may some day belong to my worshipable Deities, a salagram-shila and two little Govardhana shilas. You may find pictures of them at http://www.salagram.net/sstp-Babhru.html

BTW, this is a very cool Web site. Check it out.

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 05-15-2002).]

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 05-16-2002).]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

No, I am not promoting illicit sex, but saying that better have as much sex inside the institution of marriage than having sex outside marriage. If you can have sex only for procreation, its the best. But, in whatever condition you are, continue your sadhana and pray to Krishna sincerely.

 

I do not know how it feels when one spends nearly 30yrs in grihasta-asrama. I am just 3 yrs into my married life. I wd like the senior grihastas to comment if a feeling of renunciation creeps in, or one gets bored of ones partner, or spiritual cravings take the priority. What really happens?

What really happens depends on us. I've been married over 29 years (to the same woman). I have not become bored with my wife, nor she with me. However, we encourage each other to deepen our attachment to serving Krishna and His devotees. Over the years, the drive to enjoy different kinds of pleasure wanes to the extent that our attachment to Krishna's service increases. It's natural, if we practice sincerely. That includes the humility in our service that jndas mentioned earlier.

We need to keep in mind that the goal is not celibacy; the goal is love for Krishna. The disciplines we accept are done so voluntarily. No one ever told me I could not eat meat (I was vegetarian before I joined Srila Prabhupada's mission). No one told me I couldn't smoke or have sex. Rather, I set my priorities such that Krishna consciousness was at the top of the list. I understood that not regulating sense pleasure impedes developing Krishna consciousness, so I accepted the discipline of trying to regulate my life. When I asked for initiation, I voluntarily agreed to accept the rules of a disciple and chant a fixed number of rounds each day.

Those who preach Krishna consciousness aren't emissaries of celiabcy or vegetarianism. They are emissaries of the holy name of Krishna, which exclusively awards the highest benedictions.

Originally posted by theist:

You are right about jijaji's inference of baiting.He is trying to bait us into responses so we can assume the most provocative term is what was meant.

 

Jagat don't play so innocent.

If he was playing innocent, it was to create a pretense for his (not-so-innocent) pun.

Jayaradhe,

I have offered a few prayers for your health. I hope everything works out and we'll be able to continue benefitting from your good company. (See? My selfishness wins out!) Please do let us know when there's some news.

Babhru

I remember that after Siddhaswarupananda moved into the Honolulu temple at the end of 1970, he had a lot of health problems--immune system and nervous system, maybe. As I remember it, they were due to ill effects of his earlier experiments with Kundalini yoga. I suspect he's still feeling some residual effects more than 30 years later.

Frankly, although $600 is a lot of money, the VedaBase is worth it, and the project is worth supporting, whatever your views about copyrighting spiritual texts. As Jagat says, it has all of Srila Prabhupada's works in the Archives' possession, and the search feature is wonderful. It's good for reference.

Originally posted by Tarun:

When is the next Beatle's birthday?

We all know George left end of Nov, John 8Dec.

I ask because Strawberry Fields is such a special place where great musicians gather on such special occasions.

I could've sworn I saw Chaingang Cheney there strummin' a 6 string, singin' "Give Peace a Chance" a few days back.

Any chance?

Another undisclosed location?

Originally posted by JRdd:

Wow this is great news! And this morning I could not believe the treasure I unearthed, that I never listened to before. It is an audio tape made at Bhaktivedanta Manor in 1993, in Srila Prabhupada's rooms, of George leading a wonderful simple Hare Krsna kirtan. I never knew that was on the tape and never got around to listening to it for some crazy reason. Listening to it, I was thinking that George's voice is so sweet, like it was made for chanting Hare Krsna. What a humble special person.

Jayaradhe

Whoa! What about making a copy and sendiing it to the archives (or someone else) for publication? I'd like to have a copy of that myself.

Originally posted by Tarun:

How's your daughter now?

It's kind of you to ask. She's on the mend. She sometimes feels a little despondent at the slowness of the mending and the inactivity it requires.

Seatbelts: My folks were in a head-on collision in June '65, about two weeks after my high-school graduation. Two things saved their lives. One was that they were driving a Mercedes; even then, they were incredibly safe cars. The other is that they had their seat belts on. That apparently got my mom an extra 32 years.

Bicycle helmets: My older daughter (25) was run over by a car or truck last month. Her helmet was destroyed, and I'll always be happy she's a fanatic about wearing it. She got off with broken bones and a really bad concussion.

Originally posted by skeptic:

Hi. Can anybody suggest a nice book by Swami B. V. Tripurari? I'm looking at purchasing one now but I'm not sure which one to get. I'm very interested in his point of view and I've heard many nice things about him but I think that many of his books are rather exorbitantly priced. So if you could suggest one on the cheaper side that would be great. thanks.

 

Why not Ancient Wisdom for Modern Ignorance? It's under $12 and presents essays surveying several topics of interest. Rasa: Love Relationshsips in Transcendence is less that $11. I haven't read this one myself, but I've seen excerpts, and it looks quite good.

Is $20 for his Bhagavad-gita exhorbitant? It's a good-sized book and seems more than reasonably priced to me. On the other hand, I haven't bought Form of Beauty only becuase of its price. It's a wonderful book, but my budget has no room for a $100 book.

Oops! I meant to edit the above post, but I apparently replied. I wish there were a way a poster could just delete a message altogether.

Babhru

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 04-02-2002).]

Originally posted by JRdd:

As for neglecting friends, I also feel regret over the same. . . . I remember in the temples how we were taught to feel the importance of not wasting a single moment, and I long to get that realization back. I remember one time there was a big to-do over a couple about to get married, and I knew nothing about it, and devotees affectionately said something like "She always is absorbed in Krsna pasttimes and doesn't talk any prajalpa". I remember feeling surprised at this assessment as it seemed so natural to be that way, I assumed everyone was the same. I wish for that focus to return.

That remark reminds me of what Srila Prabhupada wrote Satyaki, my wife, when he initiated her. He said that Bhakta das, the TP, had written that Satyaki never spoke any nonsense. He told her that this is the best quality and encouraged her to keep it up and be a good example for all the other devotees. (I'd use exact quotations, but our letters from Srila Prabhupada are packed away in a box.)What's frightening is the effect on her consciousness of living with me for almost 30 years.

Thanks for reminding us all of this important principle.

Your aspiring servant,

Babhru

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 04-02-2002).]

Originally posted by gHari:

Braveheart, how is your daughter? I hadn't heard of this until now.

She's on the mend, and is mostly improving in spirits. She's a really active woman who has just spent a few days in the hospital for the first time in her life and who has been put out of commission. She was riding her bicycle to Mesa College for a 6:30 am swim class and was run over. She was found lying unconcious in the road. She got off with a couple of broken bones and a terrible concussion (her helmet was destroyed). We all know how lucky she is. The passing of TKG and Ojasvi helped create some perspective.

Thanks for asking.

Originally posted by JRdd:

Well, it was kind of like the doc gave me a death sentence, standing at the foot of the bed. Five-sixths of my liver is gone, and he wanted me to know how serious it is. The day before that, the guys in ER handed me some info on living wills, before transferring me to a bed, and it didn't click in at that time.

 

 

When I first started eating again, I told my Kanea "See? You get nice things to eat when I feel better", hoping He is bribe-able.

 

But now, I am feeling hope for surviving longer, as there is a new form of treatment which actually cures, and removes the scar tissue, so the liver can regenerate, and this is what I hope they offer me, after I see the specialist in April. My doc thinks they will put me on a year of injections a few times a week, and also have me on a transplant list at the same time. I realise I have the spirit to try to keep living (a feeling I did not have when in the throes of the illness through winter; at that time, if it hadn't been for my daughter, death would have been very welcome).

 

If there is anything I can ask of you, or anyone else reading this, that is to pray to Krsna or Radharani that I remember Krsna more and more in my daily life, and at the time of death. And I will pray the same for you, for we are all dying. I need this prayer because I am constantly forgetting Krsna.

Jayaradhe, I'm sorry to read that you've been so ill. I feel as though I've neglected many of the friends I've met online. We've had so many reminders lately of the truth of our situation here: my daughter being run over by a car, Tamal Krishna Maharaja's passing, my friend Ojasvi's passing, and now I find out how seriously ill you are. You're right, of course; we're all dying, and if I were at all serious about spiritual life, I'd find these incidennts sobering.

Tell you what: I'll pray both that the cure works and that you'll remember Krishna more. And remember that Krishna isn't just bribable, but he becomes completely under the control of those who love Him.

Babhru

Originally posted by gHari:

I think the solution is to use feminine pronouns.

stone: I think that, in terms of the ultimate siddhant ao four sampradaya, this has a wonderful logic. As I mentioned before, I also found it fun as a way to turn a convention on its head, or as gHari says, to put the shoe on the other foot. In practical terms, it's a way to alienate yet another part of an audience. I thought of the group referred to as GHQ among ISKCON devotees--some devotees who seem to many to think they are men.

In reality, perhaps the use of the singular inaccurate pronoun is just sometimes incorrect English usage - the slothful use of a pronoun where a noun is required.

Yes, and this is where my students often have touble. There's also another problem: the slothful avoidance of pronouns, which, as we saw in the sample from Kusakrata's translation, can also create awkward prose.

If we really think about it, since the pronoun can be referring to both males and females, it is really plural, and so is the noun, even though the usage is singular. "The sadhaka experiences their svarupa when Krsna reveals His original three-fold bending form of Syamasundara." Here we actually expect many sadhakas, and indeed sadhakas in general to experience the same result. The sentence is really saying "All sadhakas will experience the sadhaka's svarupa when Krsna reveals His original three-fold bending form of Syamasundara." Therefore "they" is much more accurate than "he" or "she", although as pointed out in the book, "he" turning into "she" has a certain scary truth to it too.

Another common solution, then, is to use plural constructions when it's not too awkward or inaccurate to do so: "The sadhakas experience their svarupa when Krsna reveals His original three-fold bending form of Syamasundara."

Thanks, gHari for the usage notes from the American Heritage dictionary. Of the several dictionaries I use, it's the one I use most frequently because I like the usage notes. I have several other books I use for usage, which, as I have noted aren't particularly useful at the moment becuase they're packed away.

Babhru

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-30-2002).]