stonehearted

Originally posted by Jagat:

I have a lot of trouble with gender neutral pronouns. Actually Bengali does have gender neutral pronouns, but English does not.

 

I have heard all kinds of proposals about how to render English gender neutral, but have yet to find a satisfactory one. To me, they all sound like very awkward English.

 

(1) One solution proposes using plural "they" instead of "he", arguing that numerical error is preferable to gender error.

 

(2) Another is the use of "one" as a gender neutral pronoun. Just write a few sentences that way and see what it sounds like. "One" as a referent to an ambiguous noun is very jarring. "The sadhaka eats one's food."

 

(3) Another solution is to mix up or alternate "he" and "she" which, as gHari observed, sounds weird. Though, in HNC, Bhaktivinoda Thakur writes "sadhaka" (male) for the practitioner in the sadhaka-deha and "sadhika" (female) for the practitioner in the siddha-deha.

 

(4) Another solution is to do, as the French have had a tendency to do here, say "he or she", "him or her", etc. I do that from time to time and could do so here, but to do so consistently is an abuse of the English language's natural concision.

 

The only elegant solution to the gender neutral pronoun problem would be to create an entirely new pronoun, but I have seen no serious effort in this direction.

 

This has actually become an exercise in audience awareness as much as anything else. Over the last 30 or so years, the bias in the general use of masculine pronouns (and other usages as well, but the pronoun problem is what suryaz brought up) has been called to public attention by feminist academics. Writing instructors have sytematically called thier students' attention to this and the range of possible solutions. The use of "they" and "their" is seen by some as a numer-agreement error, but it actually has a rather prestigious usage pedigree, including Shakespeare and Shaw. I have some citations, but they're in a box somewhere (we're not settled yet).

The use of "one," as Jagadananada prabhu points out, can be very awkward; I know of an ISKCON sannyasi who uses "one" incessantly, and it drives me nuts. Random switching or alternating the gender of pronouns for indeterminate referents is used by some academics in their writing, but it can be unsettling to many readers. (Some academics also use consistently feminine pronouns; I've tried it, and it can either feel phony or, if you approach it as turning the convention on its head, can be fun.) In the case of Bhaktivinoda's writing, I wonder if gHari was referring to was more like what Jagat mentions, where the male sadhaka becomes feminine on receiving (or being told of) a female siddha deha.

Occasionally using "him or her" or "hs or hers" often works fairly well, especially for students who, as many of mine do, have trouble keeping pronouns and their antecedents straight. However, I agree with Jagat that it undermines the English language's elegance.

There have been attempts to introduce gender-neutral pronouns in the campaign for gender equity in the language, but not one has caught on. One such attempt was "s/he," which has a bunch of problems (how do you pronounce it?).

Although I don't know Sanskrit and Bengali nearly as well as Jagat, but I know they have neuter nouns. English nouns aren't inherently gendered, as are those in Sanskrit and English, as well as French, Spanish, and other languages, But Sanskrit (and Bengali, too?) has masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns. My sense is that they use neuter pronouns for neuter antecedents. Jagat?

One solution for the book may to include a note at the beginning explaining your discomfort with the solutions and your desire to maintain the highest possible fidelity to the original. That would acknowledge those readers who might find your usage off-putting, as suryaz did.

Babhru

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-30-2002).]

Originally posted by Tarun:

Babhruji: Can we see Ojasvi Prabhu's photo? Family + yours too.

I don't have any pictures of Ojasvi; however, his son, Sri Thakur, will be putting a notice on CHAKRA and probably VNN in a few days.

My godbrother Ojasvi das passed away today, after losing a years-long battle with leukemia. Ojasvi was an artist with the First American Transcendental Exhibition in Los Angeles during the '70s. He owned an interior design business (they made high-end lamps and other accessories) in the San Diego are for many years and more recently was the brain behind GoTo.com. Ojasvi has for many yearrs been a friend and supporter of ISKCON San Diego. He left his body surrounded by his family and friends. His son Sri Thakur das led a kirtan all morning, joined by Ojasvi's wife Mollie, their daughter Tulasi, Sundari, his daughter from his first marriage, and Dravida das.

It's certainly auspicious that he left his body on Gaura-purnima, but many devotees will miss him.

Babhru das

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-28-2002).]

Originally posted by Jagat:

Very interesting, gHari that you should post this section of Harinamacintamani. It just so happens that I am currently doing a translation of HNC for Mandala Media. We plan to put out a "Bhaktivinoda Bhajan Companion" consisting of HNC, Bhajana-rahasya and a few other things. . . . The word adhikAra goes beyond this meaning however, and most certainly Bhaktivinoda Thakur is here talking about the “natural proclivity” of the individual (svAbhAvikI pravRtti) and not something else.

 

My translation: "When on examining the disciple’s natural tendencies, the spiritual master verifies that he truly has a taste for serving in the sringara-rasa, he informs the disciple of the eternal form that he should cultivate as a manjari in Lalita's sub-group of Srimati Radharani’s group of gopis."

I join the chorus in thanking Jagat for sharing this. It's well for us to understand that adhikara has a broader range of meaning(s) that include, but isn't limited to the extrinsic "qualifications" many of us may consider when we think of the term, i.e., which "stage" a sadhaka may have attained in terms of Rupa Goswami's description of the devotional creeper's development.

Like the others here, I look forward to the book's publication. I also hold out a little hope that I may be able to help with its editing.

Babhru

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Dear Beemasane,

 

If you are still coming here to read messages I would like to suggest a small book called Sri Guru Parampara written by my Guru Maharaja. He explores some of the issues that you are seeking clarity on in that book. Jagat is a veritable wealth of information and knows a lot about the history that you are seeking to understand.

I second both suggestions. Tripurari Maharaja's booklet is very informative and well done. And Jagat is indeed a great source for understanding Gaudiya history, especially the recent developments (last 100 years or so), from what I've seen.

As far as the substance of your inquiry, it's a natural source of curiosity for a disciple, especially one of such long standing. I'd sure never say you shouldn't wonder, or even that you shouldn't ask around to see if anyone has any information. I'm always intrigued, as are you, by comments such as Sridhar, Maharaja's and those recently attributed to Narayana Maharaja. I also wondered what Narayan Maharaja's intention was in his remarks. I've noted recntly that Dhrishtadyumna has been very aggressive (belligerent, even?) in his relations with groups not closely aligned with Narayan Maharaja, so I'd be wary of his remarks.

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Dear Babhru,

 

I think I need to enroll in one of your classes on english and how to properly convey one's message. I unwittingly offended your god brother in my attempt to share my own limited realization on who Srila Prabhupada is. Having read through my messages I can see how it could be thought of as an attack on his intentions and his standing in bhakti. This could not have been farther from my mind. This is a very important lesson for me because my words failed to convey my meaning, or intentions properly.

All we can do is our best, and beg forgiveness when communication fails. I've also made my share of mistakes, which is a little ironic when you consider all my preaching caution.

Originally posted by beemasane:

are you telling me i can't talk to and ask Bodhayan Maharaja, Tripurari Maharaja, Jagat Prabhu, Babhru Prabhu, Govinda Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, my old Temple Presidents and lets not forget Puru Prabhu either, about the Bhaktisiddhanta Lineage? . . . causal mercy interlude dedicated to Babhru Prabhu: i thot love was only true in fairy tales, then for someone else but me, then i saw his face, His Divine Grace, now i'm a believer, not a trace of doubt in my mind, i'm a believer i couldn't leave You if i tried. c'mon gimme a Prabhpada story somebody, puleeeeeze!

Look, I don't know what the heck my name is doing in the above company! I'd love to be found among such devotees, but it would be fruitless to ask me about Srila Prabhupada's internal identity.

Here's an awkward segue: I have a story about the subject here, but I'd be reluctant to repeat it, since its source may be seen as unreliable and it would only fuel speculation. But I have another story.

Srila Prabhupada visited Honolulu in August of 1970, on his way to Japan and India. We remodeled the temple room for his visit, building a vyasasana in the bay window opposite the altar. We had not yet built an umbrella over the vyasasana, so when he came for his lecture that evening, one of the brahmacaris climbed up on the shelf of the bay window next to the vyasasana and held the fancy umbrella we had made over his head. After a few minutes, Srila Prabhupada looked up at the boy, smiled his big smile, and said, "I don't think it will rain in here."

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-27-2002).]

Tomorrow many devotees on the BIg Island of Hawai'i will gather at the Temple of the Golden Volcano of Divine Love in Honoka'a for kirtan, hari-katha, and bhagavat prasad.

Babhru

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-27-2002).]

Originally posted by beemasane:

i am nothing but a bhakta with a heart of stone

Because you remember me as a nice guy, and have said so publicly, I'm kind of on the spot: I guess it would be awkward to charge a license fee on the claim of stoneheartedness. ;-)

I agree with Citta Hari that we should understand that the problem is not that there's no one fit to initiate, but that many devotees may not have met those fit to initiate them--yet. Ultimately, this is all arranged by Krishna. There's a story, unfortunately buried too deep in my memory, of one of our acharyas who kept barely missing associating with Mahaprabhu, Nitai, Gadadhara, Rupa, etc. Ultimately, I believe, he was able to connect with Jiva Goswami. (Can someone help me here? I'm a great example of how much can become buried by professional aspirations.) We also see the Lord making the arrangement for Dhruva to meet Narada.

Babhru

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-27-2002).]

Originally posted by beemasane:

hey hey we're the Vaisnavas, we're to busy chanting and relishing siddhanta and glorifying Vaisnavas,to put anybody downnnnnnnnnn.

We're just tryin' to be happy

By chanting the holy names.

So come on and join in our kirtan,

And give up your silly games!

Originally posted by Jagat:

"The important thing is Krishna."

 

I agree with this point. However, it seems that the real unifying point for Gaudiyas was always Mahaprabhu. During the Goswami period, there appears to have been quite a bit of harmony between the different Radha-Krishna sampradayas, but this camaraderie broke down at some point.

 

I have not been able to pinpoint the exact source of tension, but by Krishna Das Kaviraj's time it appears to have been solidly established. The incarnation of Mahaprabhu is the central issue, but there are others.

I had some lengthy discussion with a pusti-marg teacher some years ago. Without getting into too much detail, the falling out between the gaudiyas and the Vallabhas seems to have occurred shortly after Mahaprabhu's disappearance. For some time they worshiped Gopal together. The Vallabhas became incensed that the gaudiyas wanted to worship Srimati Radharani with Gopal; they felt, apparently, that Bengalis were inveterate shaktas. The tension between these two groups was reflected in, and perhaps exacerbated by, Krishna das' account of Vallbacharya's encounters with Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers.

Babhru das

Originally posted by westcoast:

For example there is a devotee saying that pure devotees are not within the jurisdiction of the Srila Prabhupada's Vani.

 

Huh? Fortunately, I haven't heard this one--at least recently enough that it sticks out in my mind. Such an idea is indeed piipi (or, more colloquially, peepee). Do we want to know where you've heard this "'devotee' saying"?

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-26-2002).]

Originally posted by mahak:

Opihikao, now there is a way cool place. Much bettah than little chicago (honomu), eh, stony. Give me luvin regards to di big bird, his family and all di friends oveh dere, eh.

 

Will do, brah. BTW, Honomu seems a better place to live than when Satyaki and I lived there in the mid '70s. Get plenty little artsy shops 4 da tourist. Still, cheaper stay Puna. We're in the process of buying a place out toward Garuda's in Paradise Park.

Originally posted by beemasane:

hello Babhru. dang! busted!(possibly) is there anyway i can stall you for just a bit with regards to the "auld lang syne" stuff about who i am? we got to cut a deal here somehow tho'...as i'm dying to hear this kanti mala story...what an intro huh? i'm just a little skittish on my particulars, as this is the first time i have been in any forum where i don't know who everybody is who's looking in. i remember you being nice to me tho'! Tell ya' what, your kanti mala story for a snippet of a story of my own, a very short exchange between Srila Prabhupada and me...in Hyderabad. hmmmmm? i remain for now, your anonymous well wisher...beemasaneX. (p.s. i won't hold it against you if you think this is just to wierd and don't even respond, i'm harmless tho', ask gHari.)

beemasane, it's up to you when and how you let me know who you are. I'm not entirely comfortable with the anonymity of these forums, and I used this silly name because it seemed part of the forum's culture. I've made no bones about my identity, though, and I admire Citta Hari, Audarya Lila, and the others who use their own names.

If you want to write privately, outside the forum, please feel free. My email address is williamr@hawaii.edu

Babhru

Originally posted by beemasane:

hello Babhru. dang! busted!(possibly) is there anyway i can stall you for just a bit with regards to the "auld lang syne" stuff about who i am? we got to cut a deal here somehow tho'...as i'm dying to hear this kanti mala story...what an intro huh? i'm just a little skittish on my particulars, as this is the first time i have been in any forum where i don't know who everybody is who's looking in. i remember you being nice to me tho'! Tell ya' what, your kanti mala story for a snippet of a story of my own, a very short exchange between Srila Prabhupada and me...in Hyderabad. hmmmmm? i remain for now, your anonymous well wisher...beemasaneX. (p.s. i won't hold it against you if you think this is just to wierd and don't even respond, i'm harmless tho', ask gHari.)

beemasane, it's up to you when and how you let me know who you are. I'm not entirely comfortable with the anonymity of these forums, and I used this silly name because it seemed part of the forum's culture. I've made no bones about my identity, though, and I admire Citta Hari, Audarya Lila, and the others who use their own names.

If you want to write privately, outside the forum, please feel free. My email address is williamr@hawaii.edu

Babhru

Thanks, as usual, for posting this summary. I have been occaisionally going to the Sunday evening program at Garuda das' farm near Opihikao, here on the Big Island. The kirtan is great--he'll chant one easy-to-follow tune for 45-50 minutes and give a short, basic lecture. The coup-de-grace is the prasadam, most of which is simple and healthy, and includes the best pizza on the island. I've known Garuda and his wife Mukunda dasi since 1976, when we lived on Maui. They have been solid devotees for many, many years, and their farm is quite nice.

Originally posted by gHari:

Beemasane Prabhu,

 

We may have another jpon us here who was there that day. "Stonehearted" who I have renamed "Braveheart" is actually Badhru das (please forgive me if I have mispelled thy name).

Yes, it's Babhru. beemasane, I may remember you, but I may need some help--your name and maybe some other clues.

My wife and I actually lived on the Big Island of Hawaii (where we live once again) in 1976 and went to Honolulu to see Srila Prabhupada. I have a nice story (what happened to the kanthi mala?) that I'd be delighted to share.

Some godbrothers who were also visiting from the Big Island got permission to sleep in the temple's front yard the first night they were there. But they didn't sleep. Instead they spent the night chanting japa and watching Srila Prabhupada's window. He was up all night working, if I remeber correctly, on Srimad-Bhagavatam. Occasionally he would stop to chant some bhajans, accompanying himself on harmonium, but most of the night he was dictating. When the visiting devotees went in for mangal-arati, Srila Prabhupada was still working.

When I read Hari-Sauri's diary for that period, I remember that he noted that each day the counter on Prabhupada's dictating machine had several times the amount of dictation they were used to seeing.

Babhru

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-25-2002).]

Originally posted by gHari:

Beemasane Prabhu,

 

We may have another jpon us here who was there that day. "Stonehearted" who I have renamed "Braveheart" is actually Badhru das (please forgive me if I have mispelled thy name).

Yes, it's Babhru. beemasane, I may remember you, but I may need some help--your name and maybe some other clues.

My wife and I actually lived on the Big Island of Hawaii (where we live once again) in 1976 and went to Honolulu to see Srila Prabhupada. I have a nice story (what happened to the kanthi mala?) that I'd be delighted to share.

Some godbrothers who were also visiting from the Big Island got permission to sleep in the temple's front yard the first night they were there. But they didn't sleep. Instead they spent the night chanting japa and watching Srila Prabhupada's window. He was up all night working, if I remeber correctly, on Srimad-Bhagavatam. Occasionally he would stop to chant some bhajans, accompanying himself on harmonium, but most of the night he was dictating. When the visiting devotees went in for mangal-arati, Srila Prabhupada was still working.

When I read Hari-Sauri's diary for that period, I remember that he noted that each day the counter on Prabhupada's dictating machine had several times the amount of dictation they were used to seeing.

Babhru

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-25-2002).]

Originally posted by gHari:

Left? For sooth, good brother braveheart, thou hast cut the airs above my head.

Yes--it looks like a right as you see it from the beach, but we turn left as we take off. Those of us who ride with our right foot forward (called goofy foot) generally prefer lefts because we're facing the wave; the rider in your very cool picture is not a goofy foot.

Now, what's this forum called--Spiritual Discussions? See what happens to the tenor of any conversation I enter?

Originally posted by gHari:

Left? For sooth, good brother braveheart, thou hast cut the airs above my head.

Yes--it looks like a right as you see it from the beach, but we turn left as we take off. Those of us who ride with our right foot forward (called goofy foot) generally prefer lefts because we're facing the wave; the rider in your very cool picture is not a goofy foot.

Now, what's this forum called--Spiritual Discussions? See what happens to the tenor of any conversation I enter?

Originally posted by gHari:

<CENTER><IMG SRC=http://www-ee.eng.hawaii.edu/~cca99/surfer.gif WIDTH=556 HEIGHT=333>

 

 

<H3> <FONT COLOR=BLUE>EVERYBODY'S GONE SURFIN' - SUFFERIN' U.S.A.</CENTER></FONT></H3>

 

Possibly that very afternoon on May 8th '76 in Honolulu in a SB 6.1.7 lecture, Srila Prabhupada uses the suffering surferers to preach:

Actually, it was the Bhagavatam class that morning; he was commenting on his observations earlier that morining during his walk at Magic Island, near Ala Moana Beach Park.

(BTW, gHari--nice left!)

Although he made a serious point, we should not that Srila Prabhupada was also laughing at his pun; he was poking fun at us, and those of us in the room who had been (and still were) addicted to surfing laughed with some embarrassment. Still the mood was mostly light.

Also during that visit, on an ekadashi, the devotees brought Srila Prabhuada a plate of cookies to distribute after guru-puja. He raised his eybrows and asked if it wasn't ekadashi. When the devotees proudly replied that the cookies were made with potato flour, Srila Prabhupada explained that ekadashi means eatinjg only roots and fruits which have fallen from trees. After a moment, he laughed at us and distributed the cookies.

Ekadashi is not a challenge to see what we can get away with, but what we can do without for one day.

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-24-2002).]

Originally posted by gHari:

<CENTER><IMG SRC=http://www-ee.eng.hawaii.edu/~cca99/surfer.gif WIDTH=556 HEIGHT=333>

 

 

<H3> <FONT COLOR=BLUE>EVERYBODY'S GONE SURFIN' - SUFFERIN' U.S.A.</CENTER></FONT></H3>

 

Possibly that very afternoon on May 8th '76 in Honolulu in a SB 6.1.7 lecture, Srila Prabhupada uses the suffering surferers to preach:

Actually, it was the Bhagavatam class that morning; he was commenting on his observations earlier that morining during his walk at Magic Island, near Ala Moana Beach Park.

(BTW, gHari--nice left!)

Although he made a serious point, we should not that Srila Prabhupada was also laughing at his pun; he was poking fun at us, and those of us in the room who had been (and still were) addicted to surfing laughed with some embarrassment. Still the mood was mostly light.

Also during that visit, on an ekadashi, the devotees brought Srila Prabhuada a plate of cookies to distribute after guru-puja. He raised his eybrows and asked if it wasn't ekadashi. When the devotees proudly replied that the cookies were made with potato flour, Srila Prabhupada explained that ekadashi means eatinjg only roots and fruits which have fallen from trees. After a moment, he laughed at us and distributed the cookies.

Ekadashi is not a challenge to see what we can get away with, but what we can do without for one day.

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-24-2002).]

All I get is the saffron screen, too. No links or anything. If some computer whiz could explain what the deal is, Suryaz and I would be grateful.

Originally posted by Love:

Whenever I am next in india I could try to quote something really surprising from theier. One of them as it was written in Hindi was:

 

Make friends wiht non-believers if you have to, but remember to stab them in the back when the opportuninty comes. A non-believer is doomed for hell (dozakh) where he will be eternally punished for not believing ALlah and his only messenger Mohammad. (Now which Hindu rishi says that I ma the only one sent by God). We believe that it is possible for all beings to go closer to God provided they endeavour for it.

 

A man can give up his woman simply or even kill her if even as much as he suspects her of being unworthy.

 

I am sure you will not find things like these in the Hindu scriptures as they are really philosophies while neither Bible nor Koran are philosophical works but laws that tell you what to do. The closest in Hinduism to these would be Manu's book. It is strange that no one sees through the thing when it is all clear in the Koran as to what it is all about. It is the book of adharma.

 

Tell me one thing - have you ever read Koran yourself. If not, I sincerely suggest that you do go out and read it.

Well, let's not dare bring out any of the things in Manu-samhita which may also be a little shocking.

Yes, I've read quite a bit of Quran.

Originally posted by gHari:

Here are two Koran gems. More are HERE.

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 03-06-2002).]

It may be better to read these in context. We could find some nasty sounding verses in the Bible, especially the Old Testament. I can't think of anything from "Hindu" scriptures offhand that would be comparable, but I'd guess such verses wouldn't be too difficult to find for those strongly motivated.

But I asked, and you repsponded, so I owe you thanks.

Enjoy your jihad.