stonehearted

In the early '70s, the Honolulu ISKCON center became infested with rats. We could hear them in the walls at night, and we had to be very careful with food storage. During Srila Prabhupada's visit in May 1972, we found evidence that a rat had been on the altar overnight. His advice: get a cat and don't feed it too much. Feed it enough that it would stay around but not so much that it wouldn't be hungry. When we got the cat and gave it the run of the house, the rats disappeared.

In the early '70s, the Honolulu ISKCON center became infested with rats. We could hear them in the walls at night, and we had to be very careful with food storage. During Srila Prabhupada's visit in May 1972, we found evidence that a rat had been on the altar overnight. His advice: get a cat and don't feed it too much. Feed it enough that it would stay around but not so much that it wouldn't be hungry. When we got the cat and gave it the run of the house, the rats disappeared.

uttamahaituki bhaktih

madhyama dhyana-dharana |

adhamah karma-sannyasas

tarka-carco 'dhamadhamah ||

The best is causeless, selfless devotion,

Steadfast meditation is mediocre;

Giving up works is of the least value,

The worst of the worst is argument and gossip.

stone: Can you tell us where this verse is found?

Vandanam, prayer, is one of the nine devotional activitiea recommended by Prahlada in the Bhagavatam. I have always been interested in prayer, almost as long as I can remember.

When I was about 5, my mother taught me a common children's bedtime prayer: "Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take." It freaked me out, and I ended up wandering into the living room (my folks were hosting a party that night), crying. I didn't want to die in my sleep. The right way to pray was something I wondered about a lot as a boy. (That and sex, when I got a little older.)

When I was a teenager, I was the Virginia state chaplain for a young men's organization for two or three years. One of my main duties was to open and close statewide meetings with a prayer, which meant I had to try to write several prayers each year. That really had me wondering about prayer.

A few years later, in 1969-70, when I was 22, I discovered Queen Kunti's prayers. I was ecstatic! And I was convinced the Krishna consciousness movement had the answers to all of humanity's problems. (The more I read the first canto of the Bhagavatam, the more it amazes me!) In fact, my contact with devotees seemed to come as an answer to a prayer of desperation: Dear God, if you exist, please, please give me some indication of how I can know more about you and what life is meant for.

Regarding public prayer in vernacular languages, why not? Why shouldn't members of a community develop prayers they feel would be helpful and recite them together? This is somehting that needs to grow organically, I feel, and not be instituted by fiat. Moreover, I think the best prayers would be artful translations of those found in the Bhagavatam, or those of Narottam, Siddha Krishna das, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, and other Gaudiya saints. They know what's worth praying for! The first bhajan I learned in 1970 was Narottam's Lalasamayi-prarthana (Gauranga bolite . . .) and it is still one of the first songs on my lips. What more is there to want? It's all in there.

Thanks for bringing this one up. I look forward to devotees stirring things up with a discussion of their realizations regarding the practice of prayer.

bhaktivaibhav.net wrote: "Personally, I'd imagine it very difficult for a Krishna devotee to get a foot in the door to talk about Krishna and Bhagavad Gita for starters.

I'd like to know if any devotees are endeavoring to do this method of preaching. The encounters would probably be more interesting than those found in airports and the like."

Somehow, I just now picked up on this part of the thread. From early 1971 into '73, door-to-door preaching was an important part of our program at the Honolulu ISKCON center. Turiya das, Siddhasvarupa, and I went out one Sunday afternoon in Manoa Valley, our neighborhood, to test the waters. After that, the entire temple went out just about every afternoon for the next couple of years. Of course, many folks weren't home, and we were turned away from many doors, but we had thousands of interesting encounters. Many folks invited us in, offered us water, juice, or milk, and asked us lots of questions.

We had a Thomas Brothers map of the island and kept track of every block we covered. We did the same on Kauai, Maui, and Hawaii. It was quite wonderful. I remember that one afternoon in Kalihi Valley, we stopped to pick up a Godbrother named Kanva. He was walking down the road with a kritan party of about a dozen neighborhood kids, tears streaming down his face. When we stopped to pick him up he asked if we could please let him go to two or three more homes. "I just want to let them keep chanting," he explained. When he went to the door, the kids would stay out by the road, chanting Hare Krishna.

Here's a link to an essay by a Godbrother, Bhakti Bhavana Vishnu Maharaja. I concur in the perspective in this essay.

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/ritvik/index.html

I never attempt to persuade anyone of my position on this issue; rather, I just try to explain it as clearly as I can, while communicating that I'm actually listening and sympathetic to their concerns. I appreciate the tone of this thread so far.

But watch out for any true believers on either side.

What Shiva said is perfectly consistent with my understanding, especially, " Legitimacy is flowing through anyone who is sincerely following the instructions of the Guru parampara."

One problem I have with most of the ritvik shcools is the question of accepting responsibility for the initiation.

Devotees live in Merced? Cool! One of my Navy friends (in the '60s) was from Merced, and we used to drive past it when we lived near Three Rivers.

Prabhupadanuga wrote: "Have you read "The Final Order"? It is a very well presented and documented position, thats for sure."

stone: I've read this tract several times. It is rather cleverly presented, but it doesn't convince me. I've also spoken with its author, Krishnakant Desai. He's a bright young man, but the depth of his devotional convictions is questionable. As Srila Prabhupada often said, example is better than precept. As far as its documetation, lawyers argue mutually exclusive positions in their briefs, and both positions are supported by judicial dicta. I witnessed the San Diego ritvik "debates" of the early '90s. I was not impressed with either side. Actually, it's more precise to say I was deeply disppointed, even depressed, by both parties' conduct. They argued like lawyers, listening only to find flaws in the other side and score "points." I found no evidence that either side was willing to really discuss with the other with an eye to uncovering the truth; rather, all parties seemed convinced they had The Truth and that the others were simply miscreants. Ick!

P: "I read Prabhupadas last communication on the subject of initiations and it doesn't anywhere state that he appointed anyone as guru, but only as "ritvik" representatives of himself.So it seems to me he did clearly state this."

I've read this letter from Tamal Krishna Goswami dozens of times. In it he conveys instructions from Srila Prabhupada formalizing something he had done for years, and adding one extra element: the decision of who would be accpted. I consider myself a fairly sophisticated reader: I've been trying to follow Srila Prabhupada since 1969, and I've been teaching English at the university and college level since 1989. This letter, written by TKG and countersigned by Srila Prabhupada, makes clear how new disciples would be initiated through the duration of Srila Prabhupada's illness. So I don't see that TKG's letter mandates what has come to beknown as the "ritvik system" as clearly as you do.

P: "I have also read numerous statements by many esteemed disciples of SP wherein they state that this is indeed what Prabhuapada set up and that the other systems were deviations."

stone: I know many of these devotees. They are old and dear friends. Unlike the ISKCON bureaucracy, I don't doubt their good motives. In fact, however, this idea was proposed in the late '80s or early '90s in response to continued serious problems with ISKCON's leadership (or, perhaps, its lack thereof). I believe Nityananda, now also notorious for his advocacy of the poison theory, was the first public ritvik proponent. Nityananda and his wife are friends of ours, and we visit with them from time to time.

I also have old and very, very dear friends who believe that Srila Prabhupada was poisoned and that ISKCON will be saved as a result of the investigation. I don't see how this could help. I feel the time, money, and energy spent in this endeavor would be best spent finding ways to present Lord Chaitanya's teachings to the world. That in fact is the legacy of Srila Prabhupada and our entire spiritual family, especially that branch growing form Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

I've read all their stuff. I've talked to dozens of them. Many of my oldest, dearest friends to the ritvik and/or poison ideas. I'm sympathetic to the concerns that spawned these schools; however, their arguments, clever as some of them appear to be, don't convince me. Back in 1970, I heard from sources I considered impeccable, that Srila Prabhupada was told, while walking in the LA SRF gardens, that the then-leaders of SRF were initiating new members as disciples of Yogananda. Srila Prabhupada snorted in disgust, according to this account, and remarked that we require to be initiated by a living guru. If you actually want to follow Srila Prabhupada, read his books carefully. Listen to his lectures carefully. What you'll find is that he presented the Krishna conscious movement withour concocted deviations. If he intended that we initiate new members as his disciples until whenever, he would have clearly communicated this.

It's fair, however, to note that I also don't buy ISKCON's system of (not) appointing gurus, or whatever it is. They have some strange bureucratic system for not disapproving gurus (or whatever the heck it is), but they accept no responsibility for those who turn out to not meet the standard. No wonder folks have found other association, or have come up with the ritvik and the poison theories.

I have to say the video looks better than I remember. However, when I visited the temple, it was nighttime, so I didn't have the benefit of the natural light. Still, I echo your verdict: cold, sterile.

JRdd asked: Isn't one strand enough? I thought two was for first initiates and three for brahmin initiates but I am not sure about this.

I saw Srila Prabhupada insist on three strands of neck beads for new intitates (harinama) on several occasions. He wanted intitated devotees to wear three strands, and second-initiated men to wear sacred threads.

From what I remember, neck beads weren't worn by devotees who hadn't received initation. I remember hearing or reading (I maybe wrong) that Bhaktivinoda was criticized for lecturing on Bhagavat philosophy withour wearing neck beads. His reply was that he had not yet received the mercy of a bonafide spiritual master and so was not qualified to wear them.

Herne wrote: This was the first Rathayatra since the site was re-landscaped by the city. . . .

stone: Actually, this is the second year. My family and I attended last year, and there were a lot of devotees in attendance, but the new design gave the impression of more room. I appreciate your comments about the devotee attendees' attitudes and activities. Your comment about the young woman who couldn't explain the significance of her tilak says a lot about the state of ISKCON, at least in the US. (That was probably not one of my daughters; I think they could answer that one.)

My wife and I attended the Rathayatra we had Saturday here in Hilo, on the Big Island of Hawaii. Our cart, designed and built by Vidagdha Madhava prabhu, was a float in the annual Festival of the Pacific parade, and it won third prize. In attendance was Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Maharaj, who gave a wonderful lecture afterwards at our festival at the Puueo Community Center.

jndas wrote:

I have removed those titles. They were default settings built in.

stone: Thanks for that. I'm sure that, once I get used to the changes, I'll be able to appreciate the improvements more fully. I think we owe jn our gratitude for his hard work on this site.

I find the "titles" or ranks of users a little distracting, maybe even silly. I'm aware that others may really like this, but since you asked . . .

We can see from this exchange how Sarasvati Thakura was both repectful of his audience and firm, unwavering in his teaching Gaudiya vaishnava siddhanta.

Originally posted by theist:

The fact that women like to be "taken" is understood.

 

This is a very interesting sentence. First, you posit this attitude as factual. "The idea that women like to be 'taken'" might be more neutral, don't you think? Further, the passive voice in this sentence makes me want to ask, "Understood by whom? By women?" Any women like to comment?

Originally posted by popkern:

Babhru das,

 

Haribol! forgot to thank you for visiting the site, pls. do come back again and don't forget to sign in the guestbook or recommend the site to your friends, so we can encourage other spirit souls to chant God's Names!

I will. Thanks again for your service.

Babhru

I saw some more recent pictures of Siddha on one of the devotees' Web site a couple of years ago, but as has been noted, they're pretty much gone now. There are also a couple of recent pictures at Garuda'a farm in Opihikao; he looks older but quite well.

Originally posted by krishnas:

If I could go back and live in India, I might check out this Narasingha-Chaitanya Matha in Karnataka. It looks like Gaudiiya Vaishnavism with a Vedic/South Indian twist. Maybe the Bhaktivedanta Ashram people would also be more to my liking.

 

If I were going to live in India, Narasingha-Chaitanya Math would be the first place I check out. Narasingha Maharaja and Vishnu Maharaja were recently here on the Big Island. South Indian brahmanas send their sons to them for training and initation. They present Gaudiya Vaishnavism in a way those folks can appreciate. Looks good to me.

Put me shoulder-to shoulder with my old friend Mahaksa here. To say that Siddhasvarupananda doesn't care for his godbrothers is more than inaccurate: it's repeating an old lie. In fact, he was chased out of ISKCON two or three times. What did you give up when you joined--a motorcycle, a stereo, a couple of huindred dollars? Siddha came with a hundred disciples, several expensive properties on two Hawaiian islands, and a bunch of money. He turned everything over to Srila Prabhupada's representatives, slept on the floor next to us, stood in line with us to shower early in the morning with a garden hose, washed our dishes, and ran himself into the ground every day on sankirtan. He, Turiya das, and I began Hawaii's dor-to-door preaching one Sunday afternoon in Manoa Valley. He went to Kauai and with nothing but his faith in Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Prabhupada and started a Krishna conscious community there, later installing perhaps the most beautiful Deities of Gaura-Nitai, I've ever seen (Gaura-purnima 1977), and has since preached all over the world. He has cooperated with his godbrothers when they have made it possible. His devotees in Poland helped greatly with the court case there, even after I saw ISKCON members complain bitterly about the huge number of devotees he and Tusta Krishna prabhu made there. His disciples have told me of how he's instructed them to receive some of his sannyasi godbrothers when they come to Honolulu.

His disciples do engage in simple Deity worship; here on the Big Island, at Garuda and Mukunda's farm in Opihikao, they have a very nice, but simple, old-style, altar with pictures of Gaura-Nitai and our disciplic succesion, gorgeously decorated with flowers they grow on their farm. When, during the Sudnay feast kirtan, the arati starts, Garuda has trained the devotees to stand to receive the Lord. (I have seen at least one ISKCON center where devotees and guests have developed the habit of sitting through the evening arati. That has become their standard there, and I'm embarrassed by it when I'm there.)

He works outside ISKCON because, despite his sincee efforts to do whatever Srila Prabhupada asked him to do, he was never accepted by ISKCON's big guns. TKG, Rupanuga, and others, did everything they could to drive him away. Hansaduta's people in the Philippines wanted to kill him and Sudama Vipra. So let's back off. If you can't appreciate what he has done, at least leave him alone. If you think working within ISKCON is the only (or at least the best) way to serve Srila Prabhupada, fine: set that example and show us your success at reforming the institution.

Sorry if this reads harshly, but I've long been fed up with the self-righteous devotees who claim that only their approach to service pleases Srila Prabhupada. Here's a story from Fiji, recounted in Bhurijana prabhu's "My Glorious Master":

Guru-kripa Swami sat a Prabhupada's feet and asked Prabhupada a pointed question: Prabhupada, what about some devotees who are not intersted in book distribution? These devotees don't seem to be carrying the mood of their spiritual master. They are not into preaching, but instead get into other projects, like farms."

Prabhupada replied firmly, "Do you think the spiritual master is adumb stone who cannot instruct defferent disciples in different ways?"

I really like this site. Regarding Srila Prabhupada, he's mentioned several times as Siddhasvarupananda's guru. Because I lived with him as a brahmachari since he surrendered everything to ISKCON in 1970, I can attest to the veracity of the bio.

This site's success is assured by its dedication to Lord Chaitanya's mission. Great work!

Babhru das

Originally posted by krishnas:

I am wondering where one might find good Gaudiya Vaishnava association in the United States. . . . The major stumbling block is where I can find good association. This is not something I take lightly. . . . I have just come to the realization that I need to be somewhere in close proximity to mature devotees who will be a good influence on me and my loved ones. As I come from a conservative Indian family, I can't emphasize "mature" and "cultured" enough.

Why not check out the community growing around Tripurari Swami's Audarya center in the Bay area? I haven't lived there, but this is one place I would be interested in exploring further. I'm not sure you'll find the kind of company as at ISKCON Houston (professionals of Indian descent), but, from what I know of Swami and his assoiciates, it seems you should be able to find mature, thoughtful devotees.

You can find his Web site at http://www.swami.org/

Yours in service,

Babhru das

Originally posted by bhaktashab:

Do you know Maharaja? Or do you come to that conclusion simply from my statement about a class he gave?

 

In fact, I met Maharaja in 1982, when he was a brahmachari. We attended the annual gurukula headmasters' conference, which was held that year in Vrindavan during Kartika. He seemed a serious devotee who was intent on assimilating Bengali culture and values. I have known several men trained by him as well.

However, based on the quotation you posted, I said his knowledge of our life here seems (appears to be) limited. I hope you don't find that offensive; if you read it carefully, you'd see I was pointing out how that quotation appeared, not making an assertion about Maharaja's character.

Originally posted by bhaktashab:

Haribol,

Recently I heard a lecture by H.H.Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja and he said that a Grihastha should only dedicate eight hours of his day collecting funds to maintain his family. He mentioned that people that work longer shifts are simply borrowing from their future earnings, money that they would have received regardless of their extra effort. He said that we are alloted a certain amount of wealth due to our karma and that we only get that much regardless of how much we over-endeavour. What I forgot to ask was does that mean we should only work eight hours a day seven days a week? Six days a week? Or five days a week? Any ideas?

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but this sounds to me as though it's the specultation of someone who, as far as I know, has never had to work for a living and support a family. Part of the karma is the kinds and amount of work we must do to earn that "allotted" amount. With all due respect, Maharaja's knowledge the conditions of life in developed countries seems severely limited.

It would be great to be able to work only 40 hours a week and live nicely; 20 hours would be even better. Throughout history, however, many folks had to work many hours a day, every day, just to get by. This is especially true since the advent of capitalism.

If you're not willing to sacrifice for others, don't get married and have a family. Also, if you're not willing to sacrifice for others, don't take sannyasa.