shambu

I really don't know if this is any responsible advice, but you seem like a responsible and mentally mature person yourself, so I will give it anyway, the answer to your dilemma being presented in your own words: "I would rather run away to some place than getting married to some materialists or people who would not give me the freedom to do what I like." If you are really being pressured into a marital relationship you don't want—just RUN AWAY! Choose the right to be what you are. Choose YOURSELF. Choose GOD. What more can I say? God has given us our tiny independance. Use it right! Or else just try again to convince your parents...and again....

Of course one should not try to mix religious traditions, that may cause one to end up confused. There is a difference between faithfully following (and preaching) a certain religious tradition and "sectarianism." I hope you don't feel offended that I used this word...

—I doubt you can really equate baptism with diksa initiation. baptism is about washing away of the 'original' sin, diksa is about conscious acceptance of a teacher.— In both cases the underlying idea is "rebirth" in the spiritual sense, by establishing a bond between God and the individual through the medium of a guru ot teacher (Jesus). Even in the case of Vaisnava-diksa there is strong emphasis on refraining from sinful activities by promising to follow 4 regulative principles at the time of initiation (at least in ISKCON). I never heard that according to Christians the "original sin" is supposed to be washed away at the time of Baptism, but in any case the symbolism of the ritual is one of purification. In Vedic tradition the purifying element is taken to be fire, in the Essene tradition followed by Jesus water is the element that purifies. Take into account that fire in a desertlike area is mostly considered a hostile element, so the people living in such an environment will not be attracted to fire-rituals. Water on the other hand is experienced as more benificent by such people. —also, there is no reference anywhere to Jesus taking instructions from John the Baptist. — No, that's why I said he could be considered diksa-guru. —devotees often project specific meaning into elements of other traditions that suppose to paralel the Vedic system. mostly, it is a mere speculation on their part. — As far as I am concerned, "devotees" (meaning Vaisnavas) have a tendency towards exclusivism that is not always very healthy or even realistic. Probably you will find my "speculations" far over the top.... I hate sectarianism, can I help it?

I think "disciplic succession" or guru-parampara isn't a concept that is exclusive to India; it's a universal phenomenon. In all fields of knowledge, whether spiritual or material, knowledge is imparted through a chain of knowledgable and qualified persons. This must also be the case with the Judaic tradition, where Jesus is part of. The form of this chain of knowledge may differ from the Indian or Vedic concept, but the idea is the same. Amongst the Israelites there is a tradition of more or less self-manifested acharyas, called "prophets." Not to mention the numerous recognized rabbis of different schools, who impart their knowledge and interpretation of scriptures to their students etc. I think John the Baptist was recognized by his different manifestations as a Prophet connected to the advent of Jesus, and sri mahaksadasa makes a very good point by stating that he is to be considered Jesus' guru, no matter what specific spiritual lineage he may have belonged to. It was just preordained to be so. At least to me it seems clear he was Jesus' diksa-guru, so to speak. Just read this passage from the gospel of Matthew: 13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" 15 Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented. 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Note well that right after the baptism the spiritual connection was made and his spiritual identity was revealed. Isn't this the meaning of "initiation" (diksa)?

—..there's no "earthly" lila... vrindavana is in the spiritual world and lilas are eternally performing— Yeah, in a sense you're right! I found this quote in Brahma-samhita, purport to Verse 2, that confirms your point: "Sri Sanatana Gosvami has told....in his Brihad Bhagavatamrita....: "He displays His pastimes here in this land as He is used to do in Goloka. The difference between the two planes lies only in their locations as high and low; that is, in other words, Krsna plays exactly the same part in Goloka as He exhibits on the mundane plane of Gokula. There is practically no difference between Gokula and Goloka save that this what exists in the shape of Goloka in the upper region is the same as Gokula on the mundane plane when Krsna showed His various activity here." And in the BS purport to Verse 37 we read: "Those pastimes that manifest themselves on the mundane plane, are His visible pastimes. All those very pastimes exist in their nonvisible form in Goloka beyond the ken [= purview] of mundane knowledge. In His visible pastimes Krsna sojourns in Gokula, Mathura and Dvaraka. Those pastimes that are nonvisible in those three places, are visible in their spiritual sites of Vrindavana. "From the conclusions just stated it is clear that there is no distinction between the visible and nonvisible pastimes. The apostle Jiva Gosvami in his commentary on this sloka as well as in the gloss of Ujjvala-nilamani and Krsna-sandarbha remarks that "the visible pastimes of Krsna are the creation of His cit (spiritual) potency. Being in conjunction with the reference to mundane function they exhibit certain features which seem to be true by the influence of the limiting potency (Maya); BUT THESE CANNNOT EXIST IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL REALITY. THE DESTRUCTION OF DEMONS, ILLICIT PARAMOURSHIP, BIRTH, ETC. ARE EXAMPLES OF THIS PECULIARITY." So this means that in His eternal pastimes in Goloka Vrindavana Krsna is not engaged in fighting demons, has no "illicit" paramour-relationships with Gopis, nor does he ever get born there. But when He manifests Himself on this plane He appears to do all this. So there IS a subtle difference between Krsna's manifested pastimes on this Earth and His unmanifested pastimes in His eternal abode, Goloka Vrindavana, even though ontologically they are non-different. So I figured that it must be so that His accepting a Spiritual Master (Sandipani Muni) is also part of this "peculiarity," and that this pastime doesn't occur in His spiritual abode as part of His nitya-lila. You confirm my opinion that Sri Krsna accepted a guru only for the purpose of setting the right example for us conditioned souls. Since there are no conditioned souls in Goloka, what would be the use of His accepting a guru in that realm? —Furthermore there is no Krishna in Vaikuntha Lokas. ..where's vrindavan if not in vaikunta? goloka vrindavan?— Goloka Vrindavan is the name for Krishna's own abode, where His eternal lila is taking place in madhurya, vatsalya, and sakhya rasa. Vaikuntha is the name for the vast Spiritual Sky where Lord Narayana is residing on innumerable Vaikuntha planets, being worshiped there in different four-armed Visnu-forms in an opulent manner by devotees who are primarily in dasya-rasa. The distinction between these two realms is that Goloka is a place of Madhurya (or: sweetness, intimacy) whereas Vaikuntha is a place of Aishvarya (opulence, awe and everence). Thus the two are situated in different spheres; in other words I don't think that Goloka can be considered to be part of Vaikuntha, even though both are purely spiritual. Correct me if I am wrong.

—"Who is the Spiritual master for Sree Krishna Baghwan in Vaikunta. I have never heard. Please enlighten me. Thanks" Sandipani Muni— Only in His earthly lila Sri Krishna has a gurudeva. To show conditioned souls the right example. Furthermore there is no Krishna in Vaikuntha Lokas. Only Vishnu/Narayana is there. He has no guru either. Being source of everything, what does He need a guru for?

CC Antya 4.1: When Sanatana Gosvami returned from Vrndavana, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu affectionately saved him from his determination to commit suicide. Then, after testing him, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu purified his body. 4.2: All glories to Lord Caitanya! All glories to Lord Nityananda! All glories to Advaitacandra! And all glories to all the devotees of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu! 4.3: When Srila Rupa Gosvami returned from Jagannatha Puri to Bengal, Sanatana Gosvami went from Mathura to Jagannatha Puri to see Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. 4.4: Sanatana Gosvami walked alone on the path through the Jharikhanda forest in central India. Sometimes he fasted, and sometimes he would eat. 4.5: Because of bad water in the Jharikhanda forest and because of fasting, Sanatana Gosvami contracted a disease that made his body itch. Thus he was afflicted with itching sores from which fluid oozed. 4.6: In disappointment, Sanatana Gosvami considered, "I am of a low caste, and my body is useless for devotional service. 4.7: "When I go to Jagannatha Puri, I shall not be able to see Lord Jagannatha, nor shall I always be able to see Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. 4.8: "I have heard that the residential quarters of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are near the temple of Jagannatha. But I shall not have the power to go near the temple. 4.9: "The servants of Lord Jagannatha generally move about tending to their duties, but if they touch me I shall be an offender. 4.10: "Therefore if I sacrifice this body in a good place, my unhappiness will be mitigated and I shall attain an exalted destination. 4.11: "During the Rathayatra festival, when Lord Jagannatha comes out of the temple, I shall give up this body under the wheel of His car. 4.12: "After seeing Lord Jagannatha, I shall give up my body under the wheel of the car in the presence of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This will be the highest benediction of my life." 4.13: Having made this resolution, Sanatana Gosvami went to Nilacala, where he asked directions from people and approached the residence of Haridasa Thakura. 4.14: He offered his respects to the lotus feet of Haridasa Thakura, who knew him and thus embraced him. 4.15: Sanatana Gosvami was very eager to see the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore Haridasa Thakura said, "The Lord is coming here very soon." 4.16: At that very moment, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, after visiting the temple of Jagannatha to see the offering of upala-bhoga [morning refreshments], came with His other devotees to see Haridasa Thakura. 4.17: Seeing Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, both Haridasa Thakura and Sanatana Gosvami immediately fell flat like rods to offer obeisances. The Lord then lifted Haridasa and embraced him. 4.18: Haridasa Thakura said to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "Here is Sanatana Gosvami offering his obeisances." Seeing Sanatana Gosvami, the Lord was greatly surprised. 4.19: When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu came forward to embrace him, Sanatana backed away and spoke as follows. 4.20: "My Lord, please do not touch me. I fall at Your lotus feet. I am the lowest of men, having been born of a low caste. Besides that, I have infections on my body." 4.21: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, however, embraced Sanatana Gosvami by force. Thus the moisture oozing from the itching sores touched the transcendental body of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. 4.22: The Lord introduced all the devotees to Sanatana Gosvami, who offered his respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of them all. 4.23: The Lord and His devotees sat on a raised platform, and below that sat Haridasa Thakura and Sanatana Gosvami. 4.24: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu inquired from Sanatana about news of his well-being. Sanatana replied, "Everything is auspicious because I have seen Your lotus feet." 4.25: When the Lord asked about all the Vaisnavas at Mathura, Sanatana Gosvami informed Him of their good health and fortune. 4.26: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu informed Sanatana Gosvami, "Srila Rupa Gosvami was here for ten months. He left for Bengal just ten days ago. 4.27: "Your brother Anupama is now dead. He was a very good devotee who had firm conviction in Raghunatha [Lord Ramacandra]." 4.28: Sanatana Gosvami said, "I was born in a low family, for my family commits all kinds of irreligious acts that violate the scriptural injunctions. 4.29: "My Lord, without hatred for my family You have accepted me as Your servant. Only by Your mercy is there good fortune in my family. 4.30: "From the very beginning of his childhood, my younger brother Anupama was a great devotee of Raghunatha [Lord Ramacandra], and he worshiped Him with great determination. 4.31: "He always chanted the holy name of Raghunatha and meditated upon Him. He continuously heard about the activities of the Lord from the Ramayana and chanted about them. 4.32: "Rupa and I are his elder brothers. He stayed with us continuously. 4.33: "He heard Srimad-Bhagavatam and talks about Lord Krsna with us, and both of us examined him. 4.34: "'Dear Vallabha,' we said, 'please hear from us. Lord Krsna is supremely attractive. His beauty, sweetness and pastimes of love are without limit. 4.35: "'Engage yourself in devotional service to Krsna with the two of us. We three brothers shall stay together and enjoy discussing the pastimes of Lord Krsna.' 4.36: "In this way we spoke to him again and again, and because of this persuasion and his respect for us, his mind turned somewhat toward our instructions. 4.37: "Vallabha replied, 'My dear brothers, how can I disobey your orders? Initiate me into the Krsna mantra so that I may perform devotional service to Lord Krsna.' 4.38: "After saying this, at night he began to think, 'How shall I give up the lotus feet of Lord Raghunatha?' 4.39: "He stayed up all night and cried. In the morning, he came to us and submitted the following plea. 4.40: "'I have sold my head at the lotus feet of Lord Ramacandra. I cannot take it away. That would be too painful for me. 4.41: "'The two of you please be merciful to me and order me in such a way that life after life I may serve the lotus feet of Lord Raghunatha. 4.42: "'It is impossible for me to give up the lotus feet of Lord Raghunatha. When I even think of giving them up, my heart breaks.' 4.43: "Upon hearing this, we each embraced him and encouraged him by saying, 'You are a great saintly devotee, for your determination in devotional service is fixed.' In this way we praised him. 4.44: "My dear Lord, the family upon which You bestow even a little mercy is always fortunate, for such mercy makes all miseries disappear." 4.45: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "There was a similar incident concerning Murari Gupta. Formerly I examined him, and his determination was similar. 4.46: "Glorious is that devotee who does not give up the shelter of his Lord, and glorious is that Lord who does not abandon His servant. 4.47: "If by chance a servant falls down and goes somewhere else, glorious is that master who captures him and brings him back by the hair. 4.48: "It is very good that you have arrived here. Now stay in this room with Harida¯sa Thakura. 4.49: "Both of you are expert in understanding the mellows of Lord Krsna's devotional service. Therefore you should both continue relishing the taste for such activities and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra." 4.50: Having said this, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu got up and left, and through Govinda He sent prasadam for them to eat. 4.51: In this way, Sanatana Gosvami stayed under the care of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He would see the wheel on the pinnacle of the Jagannatha temple and offer respectful obeisances. 4.52: Every day Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would go there to meet these two stalwart devotees and discuss topics of Krsna with them for some time. 4.53: The offerings of prasadam in the temple of Lord Jagannatha were of the highest quality. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would bring this prasadam and deliver it to the two devotees. 4.54: One day when the Lord came to meet them, He suddenly began speaking to Sanatana Gosvami. 4.55: "My dear Sanatana," He said, "if I could attain Krsna by committing suicide, I would certainly give up millions of bodies without a moment's hesitation. 4.56: "YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT ONE CANNOT ATTAIN KRSNA SIMPLY BY GIVING UP THE BODY. Krsna is attainable by devotional service. There is no other means for attaining Him. 4.57: "Acts such as suicide are influenced by the mode of ignorance, and in ignorance and passion one cannot understand who Krsna is. 4.58: "Unless one discharges devotional service, one cannot awaken one's dormant love for Krsna, and there is no means for attaining Him other than awakening that dormant love. 4.59: [The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, said:] "My dear Uddhava, neither through astanga-yoga [the mystic yoga system for controlling the senses], nor through impersonal monism or an analytical study of the Absolute Truth, nor through study of the Vedas, nor through austerities, charity or acceptance of sannyasa can one satisfy Me as much as by developing unalloyed devotional service unto Me." 4.60: "MEASURES LIKE SUICIDE ARE CAUSES FOR SIN. A DEVOTEE NEVER ACHIEVES SHELTER AT KRSNA'S LOTUS FEET BY SUCH ACTIONS. 4.61: "Because of feelings of separation from Krsna, an exalted devotee sometimes wants to give up his life. By such ecstatic love, however, one attains the audience of Krsna, and at that time he cannot give up his body. 4.62: "One who is deeply in love with Krsna cannot tolerate separation from the Lord. Therefore such a devotee always desires his own death. 4.63: "'O lotus-eyed one, great personalities like Lord Siva desire to bathe in the dust of Your lotus feet to drive away ignorance. If I do not get the mercy of Your Lordship, I shall observe vows to reduce the duration of my life, and thus I shall give up bodies for hundreds of births if it is possible to get Your mercy in that way.' 4.64: "'O dear Krsna, by Your smiling glances and melodious talk, You have awakened a fire of lusty desire in our hearts. Now You should extinguish that fire with a stream of nectar from Your lips by kissing us. Kindly do this. Otherwise, dear friend, the fire within our hearts will burn our bodies to ashes because of separation from You. Thus by meditation we shall claim shelter at Your lotus feet.'" 4.65: Caitanya Mahaprabhu told Sanatana Gosvami, "Give up all your nonsensical desires, for they are unfavorable for getting shelter at the lotus feet of Krsna. Engage yourself in chanting and hearing. Then you will soon achieve the shelter of Krsna without a doubt. 4.66: "A person born in a low family is not unfit for discharging devotional service to Lord Krsna, nor is one fit for devotional service simply because he is born in an aristocratic family of brahmanas. 4.67: "Anyone who takes to devotional service is exalted, whereas a nondevotee is always condemned and abominable. Therefore in the discharge of devotional service to the Lord, there is no consideration of the status of one's family. 4.68: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, is always favorable to the humble and meek, but aristocrats, learned scholars and the wealthy are always proud of their positions. 4.69: "'One may be born in a brahmana family and have all twelve brahminical qualities, but if in spite of being thus qualified he is not devoted to the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, who has a navel shaped like a lotus, he is not as good as a candala who has dedicated his mind, words, activities, wealth and life to the service of the Lord. Simply to take birth in a brahmana family or to have brahminical qualities is not sufficient. One must be a pure devotee of the Lord. Thus if a svapaca, or candala, is a devotee, he delivers not only himself but his entire family as well, whereas a brahmana who is not a devotee but simply has brahminical qualifications cannot even purify himself, what to speak of his family.' 4.70: "Among the ways of executing devotional service, the nine prescribed methods are the best, for these processes have great potency to deliver Krsna and ecstatic love for Him. 4.71: "Of the nine processes of devotional service, the most important is to always chant the holy name of the Lord. If one does so, avoiding the ten kinds of offenses, one very easily obtains the most valuable love of Godhead." 4.72: After hearing this, Sanatana Gosvami was exceedingly astonished. He could understand, "My decision to commit suicide has not been greatly appreciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." 4.73: Sanatana Gosvami concluded, "Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who knows everything — past, present and future — has forbidden me to commit suicide." He then fell down, touching the lotus feet of the Lord, and spoke to Him as follows.

I wonder why this girl didn't run away from home instead of committing suicide. She could have taken full shelter of Krsna as her only husband. Family-dharma is pretty heavy in India, isn't it? She could have taken Krsna's advice: sarva-dharman parityajya / mam ekam saranam vraja "Abandon all varieties of religion [or: worldly duties] and just surrender unto me." I do realize that this is the hardest thing to do...but suicide is the other extreme and not beneficial in any way. She must have felt she had no other option.

A bad (or actually very good) example of a military officer who declined to do his duty is that of Commander Karremans, in charge of the Dutchbat division of UNPROFOR (United Nations Protection Force) that was appointed to protect the Bosniac Muslim enclave of Srebrenica back in 1996 against the assaults of the Serbs under command of the cruel General Mladic. When they were under attack of the Serb forces and Air-support from French UN-divisions didn't come about, as they had hoped for, they immediately surrendered to Mladic and his troops - realizing they were outnumbered by the enemy - without even firing one bullet. In a personal encounter with his opponent soon afterwards, the named Commander Karremans said: "I am just the piano-player. Don't shoot the piano-player." These words (quoted from "LUcky LUke") were translated to General Mladic, to which he replied: "You are a very bad piano-player." Immediately after this commemorable scene they had a drink together. This was filmed and the images were broadcasted worldwide. The result of this sweet surrender was that about 7000 innocent Bosniac Muslim men were brutally killed by the Serb forces. Long debates ensued over "what went wrong and who was to blame..." I think it would have been better if they had at least tried to do their duty (dharma) as soldiers, namely to protect citizens against danger. Even if they would have all been killed in the battle, that would have been a more honourable plight than to survive as cowards. Am I right? Of course I can also understand that there wasn't such a high level of personal motivation in this case, them being just military personel employed by UN for "peace-keeping purposes," but anyway... Just the idea, you know.

In reply to: —What constitutes suicide? Is a battle where you are heavily out-numbered, where you believe that there is every chance of dieing but proceed because you believe it to be correct dharma count as attempted suicide? or does the slim chance of survival discredit it from suicide?— For a member of the Ksatriya order, to die on the battlefield for a just cause, is part of their duty, or dharma. "Oh son of Kunti, either you will be killed on the battlefield and attain the heavenly planets, or you will conquer and enjoy the earthly kingdom. Therefore, get up with determination and fight." [bG 2.38] In the Purport AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada remarks: "EVEN THERE WAS NO CERTAINTY OF VICTORY for Arjuna's side, he still had to fight; for, even being killed there, he could be elevated into the heavenly planets." "In the battlefield, a king or ksatriya, while fighting another king envious of him, is eligible for achieving heavenly planets after death, as the brahmanas also attain the heavenly planets by sacrificing animals in the sacrificial fire." [Purp. to BG 2.32] "It is said that two kinds of men, namely the ksatriya who dies directly in front of the battlefield UNDER KRSNA's PERSONAL ORDERS and the person in the renounced order of life who is absolutely devoted to spiritual culture, are eligible to enter into the sun globe, which is so powerful and dazzling" [Purp. to BG 1.31] "One who lays down his life on the sacrificial altar, or in the proper battlefield, is at once cleansed of bodily reactions and promoted to a higher status of life. So there was no cause for Arjuna's lamentation." [Purp. to BG 2.23] and: "O Partha, happy are the ksatriyas to whom such fighting opportunities come unsought, opening for them the doors of the heavenly planets. If, however, you do not perform your religious duty of fighting, then you will certainly incur sins for neglecting you duties and thus lose your reputation as a fighter. People will always speak of your infamy, and for a respectable person, DISHONOR IS WORSE THAN DEATH." [bG 2. 32-34] The Purport to this final verse concludes: "So, the final judgment of the Lord was for Arjuna to die in the battle and not withdraw." So a ksatriya is supposed to happily sacrifice his body in battle, and this is not considered to be suicide or sinful, but on the contrary to be the perfection of his life. Unfortunately there are no more real ksatriyas, like ~Arjuna, nor are there religious or just wars. We should sacrifice ourselves on the sacrificial altar of the Holy Names, and thus become cleansed of all sinful reactions. Hare Krishna!

That Krishna = Durga and Durga = Krishna seems somewhat agreeable when U consider that Both were "born" at exactly the same moment according to Bhagavatam at the time when Vasudeva Krishna appeared from Devaki's womb in Kamsa's prison, there appeared a cute little girl from Yashoda Mata's same womb, and this was Durga Devi and I guess She is blackish too, just like Krishna. I once met a Durga devotee and he actually had the same realization, namely that to worship Durga is to worship Krishna. He worshipped a blackish doll as if She was Durga. And he talked to the doll as well.

"yes talk privately.. we are in a gaudya vaishnava forum... not in an erotic chat line." I was already wondering what I'm into.

Radhe Krsna Radhe Krsna Krsna Krsna Radhe Radhe, Radhe Shyam Radhe Shyam Shyam Shyam Radhe Radhe This is mantra from Nimbarka Sampradaya, also called Yugala-Mantra. Nimbarkacarya supposedly received this mantra from 4 Kumaras; for story read: http://www.salagram.net/parishad72.htm It is a bonafide mantra, but not for Gaudiyas. It has nothing to do with concocted mantras like: Nitai Gaura, Radhe Shyam, Hare Krsna Hare Rama! Haribol!

Somebody sent me this link: http://www.rense.com/general56/place.htm I'm not using a cell phone myself, but for those who do it may be a warning.

God's Name makes any book holy.

If Jesus were an "incarnation of Brahma," then he should be worshipped as identical to the original source of Vedic knowledge of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya-Vaisnava-Sampradaya. Lord Jesus - the soundvibration of the Vedas in the flesh. Interesting perspective! Probably that's the reason why Prabhupada showed such a high degree of reverence towards him. Without intending to either "ridicule" or "denigrate," but is there any more fantastic speculation on the subject of Jesus available? Some devotees (Krsna-bhaktas in the above-named sampradaya) also say that the God of the Bible is actually Lord Brahma, not even Visnu, since His worshippers address Him as the Creator. There are so many theories and speculations. Actually this sounds even more reasonable to me than Jesus being Brahma...sorry.

on "Prabhupadanuga." http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20040518a.shtml Comments or questions?

"Love is to show what the sastra says, to open the eyes of people who are not so abstinate in their speculation, people who are very attached to these speculation. How can they love you? They will try denigrate you, as you yourself are trying here by implying: "oh you speak about asociation with devotee, but where is your love?" and you continue denigrating by saying: "Oh, you are qouting from from the translation by BV Narayana Maharaja (which explains a lot...)." How can you possibly think that someone is out to denigrate you? You are undoubtedly an advanced devotee, impeccable in both good character and behaviour, endowed with the highest and purest conception of tattva-siddhanta. Please forgive us our offenses and teach us some more!

No, what's he saying there?

...did you read Bhaktivinoda's article? He says: "Oh God! Reveal Thy most valuable truths to all so that Your own may not be numbered with the fanatics and the crazed and that the whole of mankind may be admitted as "Your own." Thank you!

Although I am completely unqualified to take part in this discussion (mostly I am just trying to be a total nuisance as you have noticed) I cannot restrain myself to make an ignorant remark. 4th Shloka of Upadesamrta is about loving exchanges between devotees, with the stress on loving. In your personal exchanges with devotees on this forum this loving aspect seems to be completely absent. In fact you show hardly any respect at all and dismiss any sincere reply as "speculation." For example, first you seem to praise somebody by telling him he is a "senior devotee" and next you show your utter disrespect by suggesting that this very same person is not chanting enough (at least a number of 35 rounds, which is ridiculous). If you feel that the only persons who are worthy of being taken serious have to chant at least half a lakh of rounds, then practically nobody will meet this requirement. By the way, I notice that you are quoting from the translation by BV Narayana Maharaja (which explains a lot...): "revealing to devotees one's confidential realisations concerning bhajana" Prabhupada's translation reads somewhat different, namely: "revealing one's mind in confidence" (to devotees) Probably you will remark that Prabhupada's translation is on a "more neophyte platform" since his devotees were "not yet so mature" when he wrote this, or something likewise. Whatever you may think or remark, I don't care at all. Personally I don't have any "confidential realisations concerning bhajana" so there is nothing to reveal to you. I am not even a devotee, really. Maybe you should try to learn something from Jesus' example of pure humility. He is also guru, you know...

To Love God Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura [Tajpur journal, Friday, August 25, 1871] It was Christ Jesus who first said "Love God with all thy heart, with all thy mind, with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and love man as thy brother." This is an absolute truth indeed; but different men put different interpretations to this noble expression. The expressions of all great men are nice but somewhat mysterious - when understood they bring the truth nearest to heart otherwise they remain mere letters that "kill." The reason of the mystery is that men, advanced in their inward approach to the Deity, are in the habit of receiving revelations which are but mysteries to those that are behind them. The stages of progress are very much the same as the circles of spiritualism which, though not true themselves, explain a great deal about the gradual development of the soul. We have understood some spiritualists to maintain that matter when sublimated converts itself to spirit. This theory is indeed against any inward conviction. Matter is matter, and spirit is spirit; one of them cannot form the other. Spirit is certainly of superior existence; though we cannot fully understand in our present state of material imprisonment, what relation spirit does exactly bear to matter, space and time. Metaphysics apart, we decide that the human soul rises higher and higher and can understand things of which we have no idea at present. Subject to this important rule, Christ Jesus of Nazareth received and uttered these words quoted above. To readers who are a little above the scale of ordinary men, these expressions of Jesus teach, that man should love God with all his heart (meaning the affections of the heart perceivable in all children as opposed to hate), with all his mind (meaning the intellect which knows, as opposed to igorance of, good things), with all his soul, (meaning the principle of the human constitution which worships the Almighty and feels its own immortality) and with all its strength (meaning all active work). To the inspired, however, more things and better and sublimer meanings appear beneath these holy words of the inspired Jesus. He teaches man to love God and not to know, infer, hate or think of God. He tells us that man in his absolute state is not the intellect or the body but is the pure soul itself. The essence of the soul is wisdom and its action is love absolute. The absolute condition of man is his absolute relation to the Deity in pure love. Love then alone is the religion of the soul and consequently of the whole man. The pupil asks here "What have I to do with the heart? - my heart loves to see the 'sun to smile', 'to eat the sweetest dishes and to see a dance'". Jesus profoundly replies "Yes, you must love God with all thy heart. Your heart now runs to other things than God, but you must, as you train a bad horse, make your feelings run to the loving God." This is one of the four principles of worship or what is known in Vaishnava literature as Shanta Rasa. Then the pupil says "My Lord, the intellect takes me elsewhere from God, i.e. it wants to take me to Positivism; please instruct me what am I to do?Yes," replies Jesus"you must love god with all your mind, i.e. when you perceive, conceive, remember, imagine and reason, you must not allow yourself to be a dry thinker but must love. Love alone can soften the dryness of the intellect, you must develop the intellect on all good and holy things by means of love of truth, spiritual beauty and harmony." This is the second phase of Vaishnava development which passes by the name of Dasya Rasa. The pupil then enquires whether the development of the affections and the intellect is quite enough for him. Then says the Lord, "You must love God with thy soul also, i.e. you must perceive yourself in spiritual communication with the Deity and receive holy revelations in your sublimest hours of worship." This is called the Sakhya Rasa of the Vaishnavas - the soul approaching the Deity in holy and fearless service. The disciple apprehends that he will be lost in such a position and will be unable to act. Then the Saviour tells us these words, "You must love God with all thy strength or will - you are wrong to conclude that you will loose your active existence - you will get it the more. Work for God and to God, proceeding from no self interested views but from a holy free will (which is alone the strength of man) and identifying itself with pure love, will fully engross your attention." This description is of Bhakti in general. Then Jesus proceeds to tell us "You must love man as thy brother." From this is inferred the fourth phase of love which is a feeling that all men are brothers and God is their common Father. This is Vatsalya Rasa in its first stage of development. Bhakti (love) is thus perceived in the very first development of the man in shape of heart, then in the shape of mind, then in the shape of soul and lastly in the shape of will. These shapes do not destroy each other but beautifully harmonize themselves into a pure construction of what we call the spiritual man or the Ekanta of Vaishnava Literature. But there is another sublimer truth behind this fact which is revealed to a few that are prepared for it. We mean the spiritual conversion of the soul into a woman. It is in that sublime and lofty state that the soul can taste the sweets of an indissoluble marriage with the God of love. the fifth or the highest stage of Vaishnava development is this, which we call Madhura Rasa, and on this alone the most beautiful portion of the Vaishnava Literature so ably expatiates. This phase of human life, mysterious as it is, is not attainable by all, nay, we should say, by any but "God's own." It is so very beyond the reach of common men that the rationalists and even the ordinary theists cannot understand it, nay, they go as far as to sneer at it as something unnatural. Oh God! Reveal Thy most valuable truths to all so that Your own may not be numbered with the fanatics and the crazed and that the whole of mankind may be admitted as "Your own."

"I am from India, born and brought up and to my knowledge nowhere in India including the tribes accept and pray to Indra as supreme." On the thread about Aryan-invasian theory I followed a link and found the following quote: The Aryan gods are proudly presented by the Vedic sages as the destroyeres of cities. Of these Indra, later considered an incarnation of the God Vishnu, is the prime culprit. Indra is called Puroha or Purandhara, `sacker of cities' - [ S & T 366 ] Indra overthrew 100 Puras made of stone ( asmanmayi ) for his worshipper Divodasa [ RgV 4.30.20 ], evidently belonging to Sambara who is a Dasa ( non-Aryan/demon ) of the mountain [ RgV 6.26.5 ] -- [ Chanda ] [ S & T p.364 ] So from this I inferred that god Indra was once worshipped as supreme being by at least some Aryans. I may be totally wrong in my conclusion, and the quote may be wrong too.

What is the implication of this? Wrong siddhanta pertaining 1. sambandha jnana - knowledge about bhagavan tattva jiva tattva guru tattva shakti tattva maya tattva... and their relations 2. abhideya tattva - knowledge about shuddha bhakti, the means to attain the goal 3. prayojana tattva - the goal, prema, pure love for bhagavan Sri Krishna or one of His expansions in the category bhagavan-tattva. Your head is stuffed with words! Doing too much reading lately?

—Jesus Christ said, “Thou shalt not kill.” So why is it that the Christian people are engaged in animal killing?— Srila Prabhupada is wrong here. Jesus Christ never said: "Thou shalt not kill." Why he is saying this? Probably he was more inclined to study Sanskrit on his Scottish Church College than to attend Bible-classes. Obviously this is one of the Ten Commandments of Moses. Jesus' mission was not to impose laws, but to fulfil the law, as He Himself declared. He represents the pillar of mercy, not the one of law. Laws had already been given when He came. It really annoys me to read this argument over and over again, or to hear it from the mouths of immature bhaktas. "Thou shalt not kill" in the Bible actually applies to humans only. Bible is "mleccha-shastra" so it abounds with prescriptions of what meat can be eaten and which meat not. Furthermore in the same Biblical book there are many references on how to perform animal-sacrifice, as was the custom. So how you can reasonably assume that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" applies to ALL living creatures??? It is illogical. Sorry Prabhupada. I want to challenge you in this connection to give me one reference from the Vedas where it says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" or it's equivalent. I know one statement, and I really don't know it's source, that reads: "Ma Himsat Sarva Bhutanam." This means: "Don't inflict unnecessary violence on any living entity." Unnecessary violence doesn't imply "no killing." In fact Lord Krsna, the Adi Purusa, is encouraging Arjuna on the battlefield to fight and Kill, even his own relatives. It is only the material body that's killed, He says, and goes on to describe the difference between body and soul. So my question is — why bother the poor Christians by imposing a commandment upon them "not to kill" when even such a rigorous "commandment" doesn't exist in the very high-class Vedic literatures? I don't understand. Ksatriyas are allowed to kill and eat meat - why not Christians? Better to point out to them in a friendly manner what are the specific advantages, materially and spiritually, of being vegetarian. Their Jesus tells them to be "meak of heart" —that would be a good encouragement to them not to kill innocent animals unnecessarily. Sorry for being so terribly offensive.