shambu

"Third eye" or "Ajna Chakra" isn't the highest. On top of the head is the seventh chakra called Sahasrara, that is ultimately to be "opened" by raising the Kundalini, and also when a person's soul leaves the body this is supposedly the best doorway, towards liberation.

I think it's hard to say for sure what is the "Inner Circle" of Hinduism. Vaisnavas will say it's meditation on Radha-Krsna pastimes (the essence of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, I would say), Saivites will probably say it's Tantra (TANTRA) that is the essence, while Jnanins will maybe say that studying Vedanta and becoming a pure detached person is the essence. This confusion is caused because of the multi-facetted nature of "Hinduism". First give us a definition of what is Hinduism, and then we will be able to tell what is its essence, prabhu.

I can hardly believe that "Swami J" is saying these things, and even advocates them on public seminars. Ridiculous! Does he want to turn iskcon into a hardcore snobbish society, floating with their feet 5 miles above the ground? To denounce the distribution of prasadam to the poor and needy as being a superfluous material activity, is a crude unjustice. How can anyone think of God when his stomach is empty and his senses are weakened? Poverty doesn't make a better human being. In fact it can turn humans into animals. Personally I witnessed how several people were raised from an animalistic platform to the human standard by eating FFL krsna-prasadam, and even became devotees! So prasadam-distribution is preaching, and nothing less than that. Or at least it is a mighty tool for preaching, and will increase the popularity of Mahaprabhu's movement amongst the masses, as confirmed by Prabhupada. I think all will agree on that.

"Srila Prabhupada is talking about the consciousness, not just the word." Yes I realize that. Mother Theresa was also a mother. And my sister was just my sister. Never considered calling her mother. But this is another thing.

Isn't Vedic per definition already "Aryan" by nature? Just a quick remark...

But to what extent is it possible for people in this day and age to follow Vedic culture? Is it natural? The standards are very high and there are so many do's and don'ts, rituals, etiquettes etc., that hardly anybody can meet the proper standard. The attempt to follow this tends to become somewhat external, and perhaps causes one to become distracted from the actual goal of religion, rather than playing a supportive role in this. Also the danger seems to me to become rather puffed up, instead of humble. Just like in the case of smarta-brahmanas who are so proud of following all the rules of shastra, that they go about feeling like kings of the world or divine incarnations.

I thought this was maybe an interesting topic for an in-depth discussion: Since bhakti transcends Varnashrama-dharma, could one say that bhakti transcends even Vedic Culture?

and I wanted to add that it is not asmuch the word one uses while addressing ladies; more important is the consciousness that goes with it. For some "prabhus" ("masters"), "mataji" may mean "venerable mother." For a lot others the word mataji may have quite different connotations, such as for immature brahmacaris, for whom it may mean "something untouchable." And for lusty persons the word "mataji" may even evoke thoughts of sex-indulgence.

....about affectionately addressing Godsisters and other sisters as Didi, as is the practice in most circles of Gaudiya Math? Is "didi" the same big Maya as "bahiniji"? And are girls also to be addressed as "Mother"? Calling all females "mataji" sounds like part of rigorous vaidhi bhakti sadhana, not spontaneous.

U want me to be born again, he?

In reply to: "Do we conquer them or by divine grace it happens?" Both, of course. "As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly." [bg. 4.11] Nothing for nothing, there is always the exchange between jiva and Isvara. At least, that is the bhakti concept: mystic yogis or jnanis may think otherwise. Or as the Christian proverb goes: "God helps those who help themselves." The fact is, however, that God is always helping, and that help is causeless. The problem seems to be that we are either too numb or covered to be aware of His helping gestures, or simply refuse to be helped according to His plan. We chalk out our own schemes, being led by false ego and polluted intelligence, and thus proceed towards our doom. The bhakta-program means to act acording to the bhakta-leader's directions. The bhakta-leader is Krsna. Or His representative, the Guru. Or the representative of the Guru, the devotee. And for the advanced soul EVERYTHING is representative of Krsna, as he sees nothing seperate from the Lord. In reply to: "Is it true that actual spiritual life is at first most painful and horrible, and thus we are not supposed to be feeling nice and happy in the beginning? Or maybe that happiness is not genuine?" No, kind of a cruel picture here of bhakti-yoga! How would anyone come to Krsna-consciousness when the initial stages would be so tough already? Actually, I think the opposite is true. In the initial stages He showers His mercy abundantly and causelessly tends to remove all different obstacles, just in order to enthuse His newly won devotee and attach him to the service of His feet. Only in the later stages, real troubles may pop up like wildfire, and the hard work starts... Maybe a crude example, but it can be compared to purchasing some software on the internet for your computer. You can use it for a while for free, as shareware, but in order to keep using it, sooner or later you have to pay the price. But once you have payed the price, the downloaded program runs like anything and you have the disposal of even extra facilities like free updates and everything. Something like that. You may be right where you say that the happiness experienced in the beginning of spiritual life is not genuine. One may just be overwhelmed by different external features like good-tasting prasadam, lovely incense, nice clothes, whatever. Krsna may even trick His devotee with some specific maya to attract him, such as offering him an honourable position. Besides being all-powerful and majestic, He is also a very cunning personality. /images/graemlins/blush.gif BTW: In Bg Krsna Himself uses the words su-sukham kartum, "very happily performed" to describe the process of spiritual life. Prabhupada confirms this by stating that "the process of devotional service is a very happy one," and that it is "simply joyful." One devotee once said, when asked why devotees weren't happy, that "there must be something wrong then." I guess he's right /images/graemlins/smile.gif There always seems to be something wrong. At least most of the time...

Many definitions may be possible, as Theist writes. What came to my mind is "to face one's own deficiencies," as dry as it may sound. One should face one's own deficiencies first, and perhaps accept them for awhile, before being able to conquer them. I guess "deficiency" here is not the exact equivalent of anartha, more somekind of inability. I am sure you can think of some you have, since no one is perfect. Personally I am struggling with the demands for "perfection," a word often used by Srila Prabhupada, as they are too high for me. So I have to face my imperfection and deficiency without necessarily being "defeated." An other thing that comes to mind is that the higher one rises, the lower one feels. As in the case of the uttama-adhikari devotee, who sees that everyone is serving Krsna nicely, while he is in such a lowly and fallen state. He is actually uttama, the highest, most advanced, but is feeling himself patita, the most low. Not meaning that whenever we feel "low" we are actually "high" I guess, since this would be a questionable standard because it occurs often in ordinary circumstances. Only within the divine context is this applicable and to be understood. Knowledge by revelation (perhaps translated as vijnana, realized knowledge) sure makes for advancement, where compassion would be estimated as the most advanced symptom of a devotee, since it embodies complete selflesness and as such practically equals love of god. As the Old Bible said: Love God with all thy might, strength, and intelligence, and secondly and equally so, love thy neighbour as yourself, or something likewise... You can't love One without the Other! So compassion is certainly very high, and most rare to find, at least on a spiritual level.

Nice picture, only the bearded figure hardly looks like Shiva to me... I never saw Shiva with beard! To me he looks more like Sri Vyasadeva dressed up like a Shivaite. Strange. What is this pastime of ...uh... Shiba holding baby Krishna? Oh! It must be this pastime where Shiva enters Braja dressed up as a travelling mendicant, in order to have Krishna's darshan!

You wanna know how many 10ths of a second it would take to get benefitted looking at a picture of Lord Krsna? I think it was one tenth of a second, but I am not sure. Where's the damn quote!

Because he's sooooo coooool sitting high up there in the Himalayan Mountains!!!!!! Any other reasons? Ain't Krsna cool enough?

.....it doesn't make no sense to ask a pure devotee and or guru if he's a pure devotee and / or a guru, or to ask an impure devotee or a fake guru if he is a pure devotee and / or a guru, since the answer will probably be NO! But I understand your point and dillemma. Actually I know one who is accepted by many to be a pure devotee and guru, who is constantly advocating himself to be a pure devotee and guru and even an acharya! Is that funny! Prabhupada also was asked the question if he was seeing Krsna, and he closed his eyes and said: "Yes! 24 hours a day...." I think the real criterion is not what a certain person speaks, since words can be delusive. The real criterion is what you FEEL in someone's association. When you are in the association of a real holy 100% Krsna-conscious realized person, YOU are bound to experience Krsna directly, whether you "deserve" it or not. The only question here is whether you deserve his association or can practically bear it...

...exactly what you mean by "the symptoms of one who has developed his rasa with Krsna." Because there are so many symptoms according to different rasas a devotee can have with Krsna, that describing them would take several lifetimes probably... In NOD (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu) Ch. 18 however, Rupa Gosvami describes the characteristics of a person who has ACTUALLY DEVELOPED HIS ECSTATIC LOVE FOR KRSNA in a very basic and practical manner as follows: 1)He is always anxious to utilize his time in the devotional service of the Lord. He does not like to be idle. He wants service always, twenty-four hours a day, without deviation. 2)He is always reserved and perseverant. 3)He is always detached from material attraction. 4)He does not long for any material respect in return for his activities. 5)He is always certain that Krsna will bestow His mercy upon him. 6)He is always very eager to serve the Lord faithfully. 7)He is very much attached to the chanting of the holy names of the Lord. 8)He is always eager to describe the transcendental qualities of the Lord. 9)He is very pleased to live in a place where the Lord's pastimes are performed, e.g., Mathura, Vrndavana or Dvaraka. As far as actual symptoms of rasa is concerned: an advanced devotee will try to not display them in public, because they will be mistaken for cheap imitations or symptoms of mental disease...

In his discourse Rocana dasa mentions: "Srila Prabhupada never, ever made the statements that Narayana Maharaja has made in this article, namely that he considered that Narayana Maharaja's Spiritual Master, who was Srila Prabhupada's Godbrother, is a member of the bhagavata parampara. While Srila Prabhupada took sannyasa initiation from Kesava Maharaja, from the time that he started ISKCON onward we find no reference to the fact that Srila Prabhupada considered Kesava Maharaja to be in some exalted position as the other Sampradaya Acaryas and bhagavata parampara members." I think this is nonsense. Would Prabhupada ever have accepted any sannyasa-guru who is outside the Bhagavata Parampara and not as exalted as other known members of the same parampara-system? Just read this lecture he gave at the occasion of his beloved sannyasa-guru's disappearance, that is more than just a formal speech. Seattle, October 21, 1968 Lectures & Classes 681021DK.SEA Prabhupada: One has to accept the renounced order from another person who is in renounced order. So I never thought that I shall accept this renounced order of life. In my family life, when I was in the midst of my wife and children, sometimes I was dreaming my spiritual master, that he's calling me, and I was following him. When my dream was over, I was thinking. I was little horrified. "Oh, Guru Maharaja wants me to become sannyasi. How can I accept sannyasa?" At that time, I was feeling not very satisfaction that I have to give up my family and have to become a mendicant. At that time, it was a horrible feeling. Sometimes I was thinking, "No, I cannot take sannyasa." But again I saw the same dream. So in this way I was fortunate. My Guru Maharaja (Prabhupada begins to cry, choked voice) pulled me out from this material life. I have not lost anything. He was so kind upon me. I have gained. I left three children, I have got now three hundred children. So I am not loser. This is material conception. We think that we shall be loser by accepting Krsna. Nobody is loser. I say from my practical experience. I was thinking that "How can I accept this renounced order of life? I cannot accept so much trouble." So... But I retired from my family life. I was sitting alone in Vrndavana, writing books. So this, my Godbrother, he insisted me, "Bhaktivedanta prabhu..." This title was given in my family life. It was offered to me by the Vaisnava society. So he insisted me. Not he insisted me. Practically my spiritual master insisted me through him, that "You accept." Because without accepting the renounced order of life, nobody can become a preacher. So he wanted me to become a preacher. So he forced me through this Godbrother, "You accept." So unwillingly I accepted. And then I remembered that he wanted me to go to the Western country. So I am feeling now very much obliged to my, this Godbrother, that he carried out the wish of my spiritual master and enforced me to accept this sannyasa order. So this Godbrother, His Holiness Kesava Maharaja, is no more. He has entered Krsna's abode. So I wish to pass a resolution of bereavement and send them. So... And I have composed one verse also in this connection in Sanskrit. So you all present, you sign this. I shall send it tomorrow. The verse I have composed, it is in Sanskrit. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yogam. This Krsna consciousness is vairagya-vidya. Vairagya-vidya means to become detestful to this material world. That is called vairagya-vidya. And that is possible simply by this bhakti-yoga. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yogam apayayan mam. So this... Just like medicine. The child is afraid of taking medicine. That also I have experienced. In my childhood, when I became ill, I was very stubborn. I won't accept any medicine. So my mother used to force medicine within my mouth with a spoon. I was so obstinate. So anyway, similarly, I did not want to accept this sannyasa order, but this Godbrother forced me. "You must." Apayayan mam, he forcefully made me to drink this medicine. Anabhipsu andham. Why I was unwilling? Anabhipsu means unwilling. Andham, andham means one who is blind, who cannot see his future. The spiritual life is the brightest future, but the materialists cannot see to it. You see? But the Vaisnavas, the spiritual master, they forcefully, "You drink this medicine." You see. Apayayan mam anabhipsu andham sri-kesava-bhakti-prajnana-nama. So this my Godbrother, his name is Kesava, Bhaktiprajnana Kesava. Krpambudhi. So he did this favor upon me because he was ocean of mercy. So we offer our obeisances to Vaisnava, krpambudhi. Vancha-kalpa-tarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eva ca. The Vaisnavas, the representatives of the Lord, they are so kind. They bring the ocean of mercy for distributing to the suffering humanity. Krpambudhir yas tam aham prapadye. So I am offering my respectful obeisances unto this His Holiness, because he forcefully made me adopt this sannyasa order. So he is no more in this world. He has entered Krsna's abode. So I am offering my respectful obeisances along with my disciples. On the first day of my sannyasa, I never thought, but I remembered that I'll have to speak in English. So I remember on that sannyasa day, when there was a reception, so I, first of all, I spoke in English. So it is all arrangement of Krsna, higher authority. We are writing like this, "Resolved that we the undersigned members and devotees of International Society for Krishna Consciousness Incorporated, in a condolence meeting under the presidency of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, today the 21st of October, 1968, at our Seattle branch, express our profound bereavement on hearing the passing of His Divine Grace Om Visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, the sannyasa guru, preceptor of our spiritual master, and on October 6th, 1968, at his headquarter residence in Nabadwip, West Bengal. We offer our respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of Sri Srimad B. P. Kesava Gosvami Maharaja with the following verse composed on this occasion by our spiritual master." This verse I have already explained to you. So I wish that you all sign this and I'll send it tomorrow by air mail. Have you got pencil? HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Maybe Rocana das Should chant more rounds instead of wondering what devotees 'really mean'. ____ I wonder what U mean by saying this. By chanting more he will realize more; or: stop wondering - just chant hare krsna!? Just wondering...

The site from where I managed to download 3 splendid pictures: http://www.madhoo.com/archives/003165.php Hope you are lucky this time.

One time it was ALMOST like I saw a Little Blue Boy (Krsna) coming out of the mouth of my Gurudeva while he was chanting the Hare Krsna mantra in front of the Deities during mangala-arati. But I never experienced anything similar while chanting Hare Krsna myself. Practically after many years I still don't know what chanting really is, and almost gave it up. I just can't force myself to sit and chant. Someone said that: "From quantity comes quality." In other words, even if you have no taste, if you FORCE yourself to chant a particular (rather high) number of rounds, automatically taste will come. But I just can't force myself. My point was that actually only quality matters in regards to chanting. Better chant 4 rounds with some taste, than 16, 24, 32, or 64 without any. And how can someone chant so many rounds without even a little taste? It is not possible in my opinion.

You mean you are living apart from your family, and still you get the same disease as they get? Otherwise the disease is transmitted by bacteria and viruses through the air by sneezing, coughing and/ or transpiration, touching etc. Funny would be if they loose their teeth and you also are loosing your teeth. That would be really funny.

This is exactly what I meant by flat denial. Just close your eyes for that what you don't wanna see. Prabhupada said that "blind following is never encouraged." By the way, that the link presents a "religious website" is simply accidental. Actually these people are "creationists" as opposed to "evolutionists." Is there something wrong with that? And if you don't like these people, just check out any other website on this subject. And these are not "Inca stones" but Ica Stones, named after the place of discovery. These people belonged apparently to the Nazca-culture, who created the famous "Nazca Lines" that are only visible from great heighth from an airplane or balloon. Incas are from later date. If you find this is all nonsense, that is your conclusion. Hare Krsna!

What I was trying to say, was that dragons and dinosaurs are actually the very same thing, the one being presented in the myths and histories of mankind, and the other one being presented in the form of fossiles. Double proof. So there are no descriptions of such things in the Vedas? Pity, there are also no descriptions of them in either Bible or Quran as far as I know, so don't be upset. Should we loose our faith in Sri Krsna or God because holy scriptures fail to mention these things? Are they a fraud just because of that? Ahem. And should we simply deny the findings of modern science or other evidence because they are not in line with Vedic conclusions and close our eyes and mouths, not seeing and not talking? To become blind and numb followers, simply accepting that which is pallatable to us? There seems to be a problem here, no matter how hard you try to deny it by saying: "Oh, as long as I believe that Sri Krsna is Supreme Godhead, which is the esssence of knowledge, I don't care about all the other things. They are irrelevant — let's chant Hare Krsna." Maybe there has to be made a distinction between material and spiritual knowledge as presented in the Vedas. Some things as presented in Vedic scriptures are simply unacceptable for modern man as they seem to be conflicting with common sense and tangible evidence. I could mention numerous examples, but I won't, since we try to focus here on dinosaurs. Modern science is also partially a hoax. There is something like "forbidden archaeology"—things that just shouldn't be there, and for that reason are swept under the carpet. An example of this are the famous Ica Stones of southern Peru. How old they exactly are, nobody knows, but a sure thing is that one third of all of them (there are thousands) depict dinosaurs IN THE COMPANY OF MEN. Please have a look at this and tell me what you think... It's pretty amazing. Check this out: http://genesismission.4t.com/dinosaurs/Ica_stones.html or just enter "Ica Stones" on any search machine like Google.

I was wondering about dragons... In practically all cultures amongst all peoples of the world we find stories and descriptions about these fantastic beasts. Sometimes they have one head, sometimes more, up to seven even, and sometimes they are said to spit fire. Are these the product of mere phantasy? They could be the reflection of some collective memory stored in the mind of mankind from the time that dinosaurs were roaming the earth. Some terrifying creatures they must have been... And big too..... But are these stories also going around in India? And if not, why is this so? Are they typical for asuric people only? He he.... I even tried to look up the word "dragon" in a Sanskrit dictionary, but to no avail. Collective human subconsciousness non-including India?