ancient_paztriot

SB 1.7.6 The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyasadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth. PURPORT Srila Vyasadeva saw the all-perfect Personality of Godhead. This statement suggests that the complete unit of the Personality of Godhead includes His parts and parcels also. He saw, therefore, His different energies, namely the internal energy, the marginal energy and the external energy. He also saw His different plenary portions and parts of the plenary portions, namely His different incarnations also, and he specifically observed the unwanted miseries of the conditioned souls, who are bewildered by the external energy. And at last he saw the remedial measure for the conditioned souls, namely, the process of devotional service. It is a great transcendental science and begins with the process of hearing and chanting the name, fame, glory, etc., of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Revival of the dormant affection or love of Godhead does not depend on the mechanical system of hearing and chanting, but it solely and wholly depends on the causeless mercy of the Lord. When the Lord is fully satisfied with the sincere efforts of the devotee, He may endow him with His loving transcendental service. But even with the prescribed forms of hearing and chanting, there is at once mitigation of the superfluous and unwanted miseries of material existence. Such mitigation of material affection does not wait for development of transcendental knowledge. Rather, knowledge is dependent on devotional service for the ultimate realization of the Supreme Truth.

SB 1.6.33 The Supreme Lord Sri Krsëa, whose glories and activities are pleasing to hear, at once appears on the seat of my heart, as if called for, as soon as I begin to chant His holy activities. PURPORT The Absolute Personality of Godhead is not different from His transcendental name, form, pastimes and the sound vibrations thereof. As soon as a pure devotee engages himself in the pure devotional service of hearing, chanting and remembering the name, fame and activities of the Lord, at once He becomes visible to the transcendental eyes of the pure devotee by reflecting Himself on the mirror of the heart by spiritual television. Therefore a pure devotee who is related with the Lord in loving transcendental service can experience the presence of the Lord at every moment. It is a natural psychology in every individual case that a person likes to hear and enjoy his personal glories enumerated by others. That is a natural instinct, and the Lord, being also an individual personality like others, is not an exception to this psychology because psychological characteristics visible in the individual souls are but reflections of the same psychology in the Absolute Lord. The only difference is that the Lord is the greatest personality of all and absolute in all His affairs. If, therefore, the Lord is attracted by the pure devotee's chanting of His glories, there is nothing astonishing. Since He is absolute, He can appear Himself in the picture of His glorification, the two things being identical. Srila Narada chants the glorification of the Lord not for his personal benefit but because the glorifications are identical with the Lord. Narada Muni penetrates into the presence of the Lord by the transcendental chanting. ............................... Insatant Replay… It is a natural psychology in every individual case that a person likes to hear and enjoy his personal glories enumerated by others. That is a natural instinct, and the Lord, being also an individual personality like others, is not an exception to this psychology because psychological characteristics visible in the individual souls are but reflections of the same psychology in the Absolute Lord.

SB 1.6.26 Thus I began chanting the holy name and fame of the Lord by repeated recitation, ignoring all the formalities of the material world. Such chanting and remembering of the transcendental pastimes of the Lord are benedictory. So doing, I traveled all over the earth, fully satisfied, humble and unenvious. PURPORT The life of a sincere devotee of the Lord is thus explained in a nutshell by Narada Muni by his personal example. Such a devotee, after his initiation by the Lord or His bona fide representative, takes very seriously chanting of the glories of the Lord and traveling all over the world so that others may also hear the glories of the Lord. Such devotees have no desire for material gain. They are conducted by one single desire: to go back to Godhead. This awaits them in due course on quitting the material body. Because they have the highest aim of life, going back to Godhead, they are never envious of anyone, nor are they proud of being eligible to go back to Godhead. Their only business is to chant and remember the holy name, fame and pastimes of the Lord and, according to personal capacity, to distribute the message for others' welfare without motive of material gain.

SB 1.3.24 Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana, in the province of Gaya, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist. PURPORT Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gaya (Bihar) as the son of Anjana, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas. At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him. Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. People claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas are not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad-gita a comment has been made on such foolish scholars (avipascitah). The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. According to the Bhagavad-gita (15.15), vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah: the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relation between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life or going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is thereby checked. To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal killing. The animal killers are dangerous elements on the path going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal killers. The soul is also sometimes called the "animal" or the living being. Therefore, both the slaughterer of animals and those who have lost their identity of soul are animal killers. Maharaja Pariksit said that only the animal killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated to the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyasis have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga who preach animal killing under the garb of the Vedas. The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Shaheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal killing in the Vedas, Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas. This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted in order to save people from the vice of animal killing as well as to save the poor animals from the slaughtering process of their big brothers who clamor for universal brotherhood, peace, justice and equity. There is no justice when there is animal killing. Lord Buddha wanted to stop it completely, and therefore his cult of ahimsa was propagated not only in India but also outside the country. Technically Lord Buddha's philosophy is called atheistic because there is no acceptance of the Supreme Lord and because that system of philosophy denied the authority of the Vedas. But that is an act of camouflage by the Lord. Lord Buddha is the incarnation of Godhead. As such, he is the original propounder of Vedic knowledge. He therefore cannot reject Vedic philosophy. But he rejected it outwardly because the sura-dvisa, or the demons who are always envious of the devotees of Godhead, try to support cow killing or animal killing from the pages of the Vedas, and this is now being done by the modernized sannyasis. Lord Buddha had to reject the authority of the Vedas altogether. This is simply technical, and had it not been so he would not have been so accepted as the incarnation of Godhead. Nor would he have been worshiped in the transcendental songs of the poet Jayadeva, who is a Vaisnava acarya. Lord Buddha preached the preliminary principles of the Vedas in a manner suitable for the time being (and so also did saìkaracarya) to establish the authority of the Vedas. Therefore both Lord Buddha and acarya saìkara paved the path of theism, and Vaisnava acaryas, specifically Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, led the people on the path towards a realization of going back to Godhead. We are glad that people are taking interest in the nonviolent movement of Lord Buddha. But will they take the matter very seriously and close the animal slaughterhouses altogether? If not, there is no meaning to the ahimsa cult. Srimad-Bhagavatam was composed just prior to the beginning of the age of Kali (about five thousand years ago), and Lord Buddha appeared about twenty-six hundred years ago. Therefore in the Srimad-Bhagavatam Lord Buddha is foretold. Such is the authority of this clear scripture. There are many such prophecies, and they are being fulfilled one after another. They will indicate the positive standing of Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is without trace of mistake, illusion, cheating and imperfection, which are the four flaws of all conditioned souls. The liberated souls are above these flaws; therefore they can see and foretell things which are to take place on distant future dates.

SB 10.87.37 Since this universe did not exist prior to its creation and will no longer exist after its annihilation, we conclude that in the interim it is nothing more than a manifestation imagined to be visible within You, whose spiritual enjoyment never changes. We liken this universe to the transformation of various material substances into diverse forms. Certainly those who believe that this figment of the imagination is substantially real are less intelligent. PURPORT Having thus defeated all attempts of the ritualists to prove the substantial reality of material creation, the personified Vedas now present positive evidence to the contrary—that this world is unreal in that it is temporary. Before the creation of the universe and after its dissolution, only the spiritual reality of the Supreme Lord, along with His abode and entourage, continue to exist. The srutis confirm this: atma va idam eka evagra asit. “Prior to the creation of this universe, only the Self existed.” (Aitareya Upanisad 1.1) Nasad asin no sad asit tadanim: “At that time neither the subtle nor the gross aspects of matter were present.” (Åg Veda 10.129.1) One can understand the relativity of creation by an analogy. When basic materials like clay and metal are processed and shaped into various products, the created objects exist separately from the clay and metal only in name and form. The basic substance remains unchanged. Similarly, when the energies of the Supreme Lord are transformed into the known things of this world, these things exist separately from Him only in name and form. In the Chandogya Upanisad (6.1.4–6), the sage Udalaka explains a similar analogy to his son: yatha saumyaikena mrtpindena sarvam mrn-mayam vijnatam syad vacarambhanam vikaro namadheyam mrttikety eva satyam. “For example, my dear boy, by understanding a single lump of clay one can understand everything made from clay. The existence of transformed products is only a creation of language, a matter of assigning designations: the clay alone is real.” In conclusion, there is no convincing evidence that the things of this world are eternal or substantial, while there is overwhelming evidence that they are temporary and conditioned by false designations. Therefore only the ignorant can take the imaginary permutations of matter to be real. Srila Sridhara Svami prays, mukuta-kundala-kankana-kinkini- parinatam kanakam paramarthatah mahad-ahankrti-kha-pramukham tatha nara-harer na param paramarthatah “Transformations of gold such as crowns, earrings, bangles and ankle bells are not ultimately separate from gold itself. Similarly, the material elements—headed by the mahat, false ego and ether—are not ultimately separate from Lord Narahari.”

How Your Illusory Energy Works Render Potent Loving Service to You" SB 10.87.32 The wise souls who understand how Your Maya deludes all human beings render potent loving service to You, who are the source of liberation from birth and death. How, indeed, can fear of material life affect Your faithful servants? On the other hand, Your furrowing eyebrows—the triple-rimmed wheel of time—repeatedly terrify those who refuse to take shelter of You. PURPORT The Vedas reveal their most cherished secret—devotional service to the Personality of Godhead—only to those who are tired of material illusion, which is based on a false sense of independence from the Lord. The Vajasaneyi-samhita (32.11) of the White Yajur Veda contains the following mantra: paritya bhutani paritya lokan paritya sarvah pradiso disas ca upasthaya prathama-jamrtasya- tmanatmanam abhisamvivesa “After passing beyond all the species of life, all the planetary systems and all the limits of space in all directions, one approaches the original Soul of immortality. Then one receives the opportunity to enter permanently into His domain and worship Him with personal service.” The proponents of various contending materialistic philosophies may consider themselves very wise, but they are in fact all deluded by the Supreme Lord’s Maya. Vaisnavas recognize this pattern of general delusion and submit themselves to the Supreme Lord in the devotional moods of servitude, friendship and so on. Instead of the heat and strife of philosophical quarrel, the pure Vaisnavas experience only delight at every moment, because the object of their love is He who brings an end to material entanglement. And the devotees of Lord Visnu enjoy constant pleasure not only in this life but in future lives. In whatever births they take, they enjoy loving reciprocations with the Lord. Thus the sincere Vaisnava prays, natha yoni-sahasresu yesu yesu bhramamy aham tatra tatracyuta bhaktir acyutastu drdha tvayi “Wherever I may wander, O master, among thousands of species of life, in each situation may I have firmly fixed devotion to You, O Acyuta.” (Visnu Purana) Some philosophers will question how the Vaisnavas can overcome their material entrapment without thorough analytic knowledge of the entities tvam (“you,” the jiva) and tat (“that,” the Supreme), and without developing a sufficient hatred of material life. The personified Vedas here answer that there is no chance of material illusion continuing to act on devotees of the Lord because even in the earliest stages of devotional service all fear and attachment are removed by the Lord’s grace. Time is the root cause of all fear in this world. Indeed, with its three divisions of past, present and future it creates terror at the prospect of impending disease, death and hellish suffering—but only for those who have failed to obtain shelter at the feet of the Supreme Lord. As the Lord Himself says in the Ramayana (Lanka-khanda 18.33), sakrd eva prapanno yas tavasmiti ca yacate abhayam sarvada tasmai dadamy etad vratam mama “To whomever even once surrenders to Me, pleading ‘I am Yours,’ I give eternal fearlessness. This is my solemn vow.” Furthermore, in the Bhagavad-gita (7.14) the Lord says, daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te “This divine energy of Mine consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.” Vaisnavas do not like to waste their time in prolonged and fruitless wrangling over dry philosophic subjects. They would rather worship the Personality of Godhead than quarrel with philosophical adversaries. The Vaisnavas’ understanding concurs with the essential message of revealed scripture. These devotees’ conception of the Supreme Absolute Truth as the infinite ocean of personality and loving pastimes in His worshipable forms of Krsna, Rama and other divine manifestations, and their conception of themselves as His eternal servants, amount to the perfect conclusion of Vedanta philosophy in terms of the entities tat and tvam. The Personality of Godhead and His emanations, such as the jiva souls, are simultaneously different and nondifferent, just like the sun and its expanding rays. There are more jivas than anyone can count, and each of them is eternally alive with consciousness, as the srutis confirm: nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. (Katha Upanisad 5.13 and Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.13) When they are sent forth from the body of Maha-Visnu at the beginning of material creation, the jivas are all equal in the sense that they are all atomic particles of the Lord’s marginal energy. But according to their differing conditions, they divide into four groups: Some are covered by ignorance, which obscures their vision like a cloud. Others become liberated from ignorance through a combination of knowledge and devotion. A third group of souls become endowed with pure devotion, with a slight mixture of desire for speculative knowledge and fruitive activity. Those souls attain purified bodies composed of perfect knowledge and bliss with which they can engage in the Lord’s service. Finally, there are those who are devoid of any connection with ignorance; these are the Lord’s eternal associates. The marginal position of the jiva soul is described in the Narada Pancaratra: yat tata-stham tu cid-rupam sva-samvedyad vinirgatam ranjitam guna-ragena sa jiva iti kathyate “The tata-stha potency should be understood as emanating from the Lord’s samvit [knowledge] energy. This emanation, called the jiva, becomes conditioned by the qualities of material nature.” Because the minute jiva lives within the margin between the Lord’s external, illusory potency, Maya, and His internal, spiritual potency, cit, the jiva is called tata-stha, “marginal.” When he earns liberation by cultivating devotion to the Lord, however, he comes completely under the shelter of the Lord’s internal potency, and at that time he is no longer tainted by the modes of material nature. Lord Krsna confirms this in Bhagavad-gita (14.26): mam ca yo ’vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena sevate sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate “One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman.” The object of the soul’s worship is realized in three aspects: Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. Impersonal Brahman is like the radiant effulgence of the sun; the Supersoul, or Paramatma, is like the sun globe; and the Personality of Godhead, Bhagavan, is like the presiding deity within the sun, complemented by his elaborate entourage and paraphernalia. Or, to cite another analogy, travelers approaching a city from a distance cannot at first distinguish its features but rather see something vaguely shining ahead of them. As they come closer, they may discern a few of the taller buildings. Then, when they are sufficiently close, they will see the city as it is—a bustling metropolis with many citizens, residences, public buildings, highways and parks. In the same way, persons inclined to impersonal meditation may at best gain some realization of the Supreme Lord’s effulgence (Brahman), those who approach closer can learn to see Him as the Lord in the heart (Paramatma), and those who come very close can know Him in His full personality (Bhagavan). In summary, Srila Sridhara Svami prays, samsara-cakra-krakacair vidirnam udirna-nana-bhava-tapa-taptam kathancid apannam iha prapannam tvam uddhara sri-nrhare nr-lokam “O Sri Nrhari, please deliver those human beings who have suffered all kinds of torments and been ripped apart by the sharp edge of samsara’s wheel but who have now somehow found You and are surrendering themselves unto You.”

SB 5.12.8 All of us on the surface of the globe are living entities in different forms. Some of us are moving and some not moving. All of us come into existence, remain for some time and are annihilated when the body is again mingled with the earth. We are all simply different transformations of the earth. Different bodies and capacities are simply transformations of the earth that exist in name only, for everything grows out of the earth and when everything is annihilated it again mingles with the earth. In other words, we are but dust, and we shall but be dust. Everyone can consider this point. SB 5.12.9 One may say that varieties arise from the planet earth itself. However, although the universe may temporarily appear to be the truth, it ultimately has no real existence. The earth was originally created by a combination of atomic particles, but these particles are impermanent. Actually the atom is not the cause of the universe, although some philosophers think so. It is not a fact that the varieties found in this material world simply result from atomic juxtaposition or combination. SB 5.12.10 Since this universe has no real ultimate existence, the things within it—shortness, differences, grossness, skinniness, smallness, bigness, result, cause, living symptoms, and materials—are all imagined. They are all pots made of the same substance, earth, but they are named differently. The differences are characterized by the substance, nature, predisposition, time and activity. You should know that all these are simply mechanical manifestations created by material nature. SB 5.12.11 What, then, is the ultimate truth? The answer is that nondual knowledge is the ultimate truth. It is devoid of the contamination of material qualities. It gives us liberation. It is the one without a second, all-pervading and beyond imagination. The first realization of that knowledge is Brahman. Then Paramatma, the Supersoul, is realized by the yogis who try to see Him without grievance. This is the second stage of realization. Finally, full realization of the same supreme knowledge is realized in the Supreme Person. All learned scholars describe the Supreme Person as Vasudeva, the cause of Brahman, Paramatma and others. PURPORT In Caitanya-caritamrta it is said: yad advaitam brahmopanisadi tad apy asya tanu-bha. The impersonal Brahman effulgence of the Absolute Truth consists of the bodily rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Ya atmantaryami purusa iti so ’syamsa-vibhavah. What is known as atma and antaryami, the Supersoul, is but an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sad-aisvaryaih purno ya iha bhagavan sa svayam ayam [Cc. adi 1.3]. What is described as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, complete with all six opulences, is Vasudeva, and sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is nondifferent from Him. Great learned scholars and philosophers accept this after many, many births. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah (Bg. 7.19). The wise man can understand that ultimately Vasudeva, Krsna, is the cause of Brahman, and Paramatma, the Supersoul. Thus Vasudeva is sarva-karana-karanam [bs. 5.1], the cause of all causes. This is confirmed in srimad-Bhagavatam. The real tattva, Absolute Truth, is Bhagavan, but due to incomplete realization of the Absolute Truth, people sometimes describe the same Visnu as impersonal Brahman or localized Paramatma. vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate (Bhag. 1.2.11) From the very beginning, srimad-Bhagavatam says, satyam param dhimahi: we meditate on the supreme truth. The supreme truth is explained here as jnanam visuddham satyam. The Absolute Truth is devoid of material contamination and is transcendental to the material qualities. It gives all spiritual success and liberation from this material world. That Supreme Absolute Truth is Krsna, Vasudeva. There is no difference between Krsna’s inner self and outward body. Krsna is purna, the complete whole. There is no distinction between His body and soul as there is between ours. Sometimes so-called scholars, not knowing the constitutional position of Krsna, mislead people by saying that the Krsna within is different from the Krsna without. When Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru, so-called scholars advise the reader that it is not the person Krsna to whom we must surrender but the Krsna within. So-called scholars, Mayavadis, cannot understand Krsna with their poor fund of knowledge. One should therefore approach an authorized person to understand Krsna. The spiritual master has actually seen Krsna; therefore he can explain Him properly. tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah (Bg. 4.34) Without approaching an authorized person, one cannot understand Krsna.

Remember this one? ....................... SB 5.10.9 The great brahmana Jada Bharata said: My dear King and hero, whatever you have spoken sarcastically is certainly true. Actually these are not simply words of chastisement, for the body is the carrier. The load carried by the body does not belong to me, for I am the spirit soul. There is no contradiction in your statements because I am different from the body. I am not the carrier of the palanquin; the body is the carrier. Certainly, as you have hinted, I have not labored carrying the palanquin, for I am detached from the body. You have said that I am not stout and strong, and these words are befitting a person who does not know the distinction between the body and the soul. The body may be fat or thin, but no learned man would say such things of the spirit soul. As far as the spirit soul is concerned, I am neither fat nor skinny; therefore you are correct when you say that I am not very stout. Also, if the object of this journey and the path leading there were mine, there would be many troubles for me, but because they relate not to me but to my body, there is no trouble at all. SB 5.10.10 Fatness, thinness, bodily and mental distress, thirst, hunger, fear, disagreement, desires for material happiness, old age, sleep, attachment for material possessions, anger, lamentation, illusion and identification of the body with the self are all transformations of the material covering of the spirit soul. A person absorbed in the material bodily conception is affected by these things, but I am free from all bodily conceptions. Consequently I am neither fat nor skinny nor anything else you have mentioned. SB 5.10.11 My dear King, you have unnecessarily accused me of being dead though alive. In this regard, I can only say that this is the case everywhere because everything material has its beginning and end. As far as your thinking that you are the king and master and are thus trying to order me, this is also incorrect because these positions are temporary. Today you are a king and I am your servant, but tomorrow the position may be changed, and you may be my servant and I your master. These are temporary circumstances created by providence. SB 5.10.12 My dear King, if you still think that you are the King and that I am your servant, you should order me, and I should follow your order. I can then say that this differentiation is temporary, and it expands only from usage or convention. I do not see any other cause. In that case, who is the master, and who is the servant? Everyone is being forced by the laws of material nature; therefore no one is master, and no one is servant. Nonetheless, if you think that you are the master and that I am the servant, I shall accept this. Please order me. What can I do for you? SB 5.10.13 My dear King, you have said, “You rascal, you dull, crazy fellow! I am going to chastise you, and then you will come to your senses.” In this regard, let me say that although I live like a dull, deaf and dumb man, I am actually a self-realized person. What will you gain by punishing me? If your calculation is true and I am a madman, then your punishment will be like beating a dead horse. There will be no effect. When a madman is punished, he is not cured of his madness. PURPORT Everyone in this material world is working like a madman under certain impressions falsely acquired in the material condition. For example, a thief who knows that stealing is not good and who knows that it is followed with punishment by a king or by God, who has seen that thieves are arrested and punished by the police, nonetheless steals again and again. He is obsessed with the idea that by stealing he will be happy. This is a sign of madness. Despite repeated punishment, the thief cannot give up his stealing habit; therefore the punishment is useless.

"All we can do is try to finish strong." Strong philosophical point. Games are won in the last quarter. To be painfully honest, it's hard for me to find the mindset for a strong finnish even as I anticipate all the disregard and sins I'll willingly perform just out of desire or habit or some other conditioning. I'm wearing the apathy now. /images/graemlins/frown.gif End of the Age When the light dies down and you blood runs cold Then you know what you fear most is growing old The clock winds down and the bells will toll For the dawn that follows may require your soul (Chorus) Through the narrows there are few who pass Only the chosen enter in Seek your calling while it may be found For the sand in the hourglass is falling We hang in the balance one by one Turn from you ways the voice is calling And fear the end of the age Now the evil deed never goes unseen And the wisdom of your wise men is unclean For the pride of life and the lust for gain Is a sickness of the heart, the Mark of Cain (Chorus) Sword and shield, the right hand of power's Protecting us, directing us He'll reveal the glory that's only His own With a fire in the sky When the mountains fall and the heavens roar Then the reign of man will end forevermore And the fools who believed in their empty ways Will be witness to a world that's set ablaze - Kansas

SB 6.1.42 The sun, fire, sky, air, demigods, moon, evening, day, night, directions, water, land and Supersoul Himself all witness the activities of the living entity. PURPORT The members of some religious sects, especially Christians, do not believe in the reactions of karma. We once had a discussion with a learned Christian professor who argued that although people are generally punished after the witnesses of their misdeeds are examined, where are the witnesses responsible for one’s suffering the reactions of past karma? To such a person the answer by the Yamadutas is given here. A conditioned soul thinks that he is working stealthily and that no one can see his sinful activities, but we can understand from the sastras that there are many witnesses, including the sun, fire, sky, air, moon, demigods, evening, day, night, directions, water, land and the Supersoul Himself, who sits with the individual soul within his heart. Where is the dearth of witnesses? The witnesses and the Supreme Lord both exist, and therefore so many living entities are elevated to higher planetary systems or degraded to lower planetary systems, including the hellish planets. There are no discrepancies, for everything is arranged perfectly by the management of the Supreme God (svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca). The witnesses mentioned in this verse are also mentioned in other Vedic literatures: aditya-candrav anilo ’nalas ca dyaur bhumir apo hrdayam yamas ca ahas ca ratris ca ubhe ca sandhye dharmo ’pi janati narasya vrttam ............................... "There are no discrepancies, for everything is arranged perfectly by the management of the Supreme God." No discrepencies? Man, we criminals are not expecting that. This verse makes me aware of Paramatma too. I makes me wonder how I will face my superiors and witnesses as I'm being judged for so many shameful acts. I should start accounting for my transgressions now, but I fear I've never been so resolute… and I won't be for long. /images/graemlins/frown.gif (I wonder what percentage of the population is just appearing from evolution and how many are taking repeated births as humans).

SB 6.1.6 O greatly fortunate and opulent Sukadeva Gosvami, now kindly tell me how human beings may be saved from having to enter hellish conditions in which they suffer terrible pains. PURPORT In the Twenty-sixth Chapter of the Fifth Canto, Sukadeva Gosvami has explained that people who commit sinful acts are forced to enter hellish planets and suffer. Now Maharaja Pariksit, being a devotee, is concerned with how this can be stopped. A Vaisnava is para-duhkha-duhkhi; in other words, he has no personal troubles, but he is very unhappy to see others in trouble. Prahlada Maharaja said, “My Lord, I have no personal problems, for I have learned how to glorify Your transcendental qualities and thus enter a trance of ecstasy. I do have a problem, however, for I am simply thinking of these rascals and fools who are busy with maya-sukha, temporary happiness, without knowledge of devotional service unto You.” This is the problem faced by a Vaisnava. Because a Vaisnava fully takes shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he personally has no problems, but because he is compassionate toward the fallen, conditioned souls, he is always thinking of plans to save them from their hellish life in this body and the next. Pariksit Maharaja, therefore, anxiously wanted to know from Sukadeva Gosvami how humanity can be saved from gliding down to hell. Sukadeva Gosvami had already explained how people enter hellish life, and he could also explain how they could be saved from it. Intelligent men must take advantage of these instructions. Unfortunately, however, the entire world is lacking Krsna consciousness, and therefore people are suffering from the grossest ignorance and do not even believe in a life after this one. To convince them of their next life is very difficult because they have become almost mad in their pursuit of material enjoyment. Nevertheless, our duty, the duty of all sane men, is to save them. Maharaja Pariksit is the representative of one who can save them.

Just my reaction… nothing more. Long intro and support for Prabhupada's Mercy. I kept looking for something directly about Prabhupada… didn't come till half-way through. But Prabhupada's Mery is a very sublime article. This phrase is new to me (I love it)… "Lord Nityananda distributed what amounted to free samples of the highest spiritual realization, …" This is a great rallying cry… He also figuratively exhorted all his disciples to “be prepared to shed two hundred gallons of blood for the nourishment of the spiritual corpus of every individual of this world.” The second and third were a little difficult to discern since you kept referring to other passages of your opponent. But I think you're devastating as a literary adversary. After all, you do spend you life correcting other's faults.

I picked the VNN version. You had me laughing at the end of your first paragraph… and convinced. I don't want to read Danavir Gosvami after your comments of him. You open your attack by telling your enemy what he's done, what you're going to do, and set about doing it. Powerful. I admire your skill and am highly entertained at watching you excercise your art. A little later… Well I read for several minutes, but I admit I'm not so interested in the subject matter of debate. However I read enough to have a higher opinion of you. You impressed me as sincere and convicted and having an excellent grasp of the circumstances. Wonderful piece. Really.

Again! Yes. Please post the links.

SB 4.30.20 Always engaging in the activities of devotional service, devotees feel ever-increasingly fresh and new in all their activities. The all-knower, the Supersoul within the heart of the devotee, makes everything increasingly fresh. This is known as the Brahman position by the advocates of the Absolute Truth. In such a liberated stage [brahma-bhuta], one is never bewildered. Nor does one lament or become unnecessarily jubilant. This is due to the brahma-bhuta situation. PURPORT A devotee is inspired by the Supersoul within the heart to advance in devotional service in a variety of ways. The devotee does not feel hackneyed or stereotyped, nor does he feel that he is in a stagnant position. In the material world, if one engages in chanting a material name, he will feel tired after chanting a few times. However, one can chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra all day and night and never feel tired. As chanting is increased, it will come out new and fresh. srila Rupa Gosvami said that if he could somehow get millions of ears and tongues, then he could relish spiritual bliss by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. There is really nothing uninspiring for a highly advanced devotee. In Bhagavad-gita the Lord says that He is situated in everyone’s heart and that He helps the living entity forget and remember. By the grace of the Lord, the devotee gets inspiration. tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam dadami buddhi-yogam tam yena mam upayanti te “To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.” (Bg. 10.10) As stated (kusala-karmanam), those engaged in auspicious activities in devotional service are guided by the Supersoul, described in this verse as jna, one who knows everything, past, present and future. The Supersoul gives instructions to the sincere, unalloyed devotee on how he can progress more and more in approaching the Supreme Personality of Godhead. srila Jiva Gosvami in this connection says that the Supersoul, the plenary expansion of the Personality of Godhead, exists in everyone’s heart, but in the heart of the devotee He reveals Himself as ever-increasingly new. Being inspired by Him, the devotee experiences increased transcendental bliss in the execution of his devotional service.

I'd like to read what you've written Babhru. Where is the article you wrote? And please do post any more articles you write here.

Description by Lord Kapila of Adverse Fruitive Activities SB 3.30.1 The Personality of Godhead said: As a mass of clouds does not know the powerful influence of the wind, a person engaged in material consciousness does not know the powerful strength of the time factor, by which he is being carried. SB 3.30.2 Whatever is produced by the materialist with great pain and labor for so-called happiness, the Supreme Personality, as the time factor, destroys, and for this reason the conditioned soul laments. SB 3.30.3 The misguided materialist does not know that his very body is impermanent and that the attractions of home, land and wealth, which are in relationship to that body, are also temporary. Out of ignorance only, he thinks that everything is permanent. SB 3.30.4 The living entity, in whatever species of life he appears, finds a particular type of satisfaction in that species, and he is never averse to being situated in such a condition. SB 3.30.5 The conditioned living entity is satisfied in his own particular species of life; while deluded by the covering influence of the illusory energy, he feels little inclined to cast off his body, even when in hell, for he takes delight in hellish enjoyment. SB 3.30.6 Such satisfaction with one’s standard of living is due to deep-rooted attraction for body, wife, home, children, animals, wealth and friends. In such association, the conditioned soul thinks himself quite perfect. SB 3.30.7 Although he is always burning with anxiety, such a fool always performs all kinds of mischievous activities, with a hope which is never to be fulfilled, in order to maintain his so-called family and society. SB 3.30.8 He gives heart and senses to a woman, who falsely charms him with maya. He enjoys solitary embraces and talking with her, and he is enchanted by the sweet words of the small children. SB 3.30.9 The attached householder remains in his family life, which is full of diplomacy and politics. Always spreading miseries and controlled by acts of sense gratification, he acts just to counteract the reactions of all his miseries, and if he can successfully counteract such miseries, he thinks that he is happy. SB 3.30.10 He secures money by committing violence here and there, and although he employs it in the service of his family, he himself eats only a little portion of the food thus purchased, and he goes to hell for those for whom he earned the money in such an irregular way. SB 3.30.11 When he suffers reverses in his occupation, he tries again and again to improve himself, but when he is baffled in all attempts and is ruined, he accepts money from others because of excessive greed. SB 3.30.12 Thus the unfortunate man, unsuccessful in maintaining his family members, is bereft of all beauty. He always thinks of his failure, grieving very deeply. SB 3.30.13 Seeing him unable to support them, his wife and others do not treat him with the same respect as before, even as miserly farmers do not accord the same treatment to their old and worn-out oxen. SB 3.30.14 The foolish family man does not become averse to family life although he is maintained by those whom he once maintained. Deformed by the influence of old age, he prepares himself to meet ultimate death. SB 3.30.15 Thus he remains at home just like a pet dog and eats whatever is so negligently given to him. Afflicted with many illnesses, such as dyspepsia and loss of appetite, he eats only very small morsels of food, and he becomes an invalid, who cannot work any more. SB 3.30.16 In that diseased condition, one’s eyes bulge due to the pressure of air from within, and his glands become congested with mucus. He has difficulty breathing, and upon exhaling and inhaling he produces a sound like ghura-ghura, a rattling within the throat. SB 3.30.17 In this way he comes under the clutches of death and lies down, surrounded by lamenting friends and relatives, and although he wants to speak with them, he no longer can because he is under the control of time. SB 3.30.18 Thus the man, who engaged with uncontrolled senses in maintaining a family, dies in great grief, seeing his relatives crying. He dies most pathetically, in great pain and without consciousness. SB 3.30.19 At death, he sees the messengers of the lord of death come before him, their eyes full of wrath, and in great fear he passes stool and urine. SB 3.30.20 As a criminal is arrested for punishment by the constables of the state, a person engaged in criminal sense gratification is similarly arrested by the Yamadutas, who bind him by the neck with strong rope and cover his subtle body so that he may undergo severe punishment. SB 3.30.21 While carried by the constables of Yamaraja, he is overwhelmed and trembles in their hands. While passing on the road he is bitten by dogs, and he can remember the sinful activities of his life. He is thus terribly distressed. SB 3.30.22 Under the scorching sun, the criminal has to pass through roads of hot sand with forest fires on both sides. He is whipped on the back by the constables because of his inability to walk, and he is afflicted by hunger and thirst, but unfortunately there is no drinking water, no shelter and no place for rest on the road. SB 3.30.23 While passing on that road to the abode of Yamaraja, he falls down in fatigue, and sometimes he becomes unconscious, but he is forced to rise again. In this way he is very quickly brought to the presence of Yamaraja. SB 3.30.24 Thus he has to pass ninety-nine thousand yojanas within two or three moments, and then he is at once engaged in the torturous punishment which he is destined to suffer. SB 3.30.25 He is placed in the midst of burning pieces of wood, and his limbs are set on fire. In some cases he is made to eat his own flesh or have it eaten by others. SB 3.30.26 His entrails are pulled out by the hounds and vultures of hell, even though he is still alive to see it, and he is subjected to torment by serpents, scorpions, gnats and other creatures that bite him. SB 3.30.27 Next his limbs are lopped off and torn asunder by elephants. He is hurled down from hilltops, and he is also held captive either in water or in a cave. SB 3.30.28 Men and women whose lives were built upon indulgence in illicit sex life are put into many kinds of miserable conditions in the hells known as Tamisra, Andha-tamisra and Raurava. SB 3.30.29 Lord Kapila continued: My dear mother, it is sometimes said that we experience hell or heaven on this planet, for hellish punishments are sometimes visible on this planet also. SB 3.30.30 After leaving this body, the man who maintained himself and his family members by sinful activities suffers a hellish life, and his relatives suffer also. SB 3.30.31 He goes alone to the darkest regions of hell after quitting the present body, and the money he acquired by envying other living entities is the passage money with which he leaves this world. SB 3.30.32 Thus, by the arrangement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the maintainer of kinsmen is put into a hellish condition to suffer for his sinful activities, like a man who has lost his wealth. SB 3.30.33 Therefore a person who is very eager to maintain his family and kinsmen simply by black methods certainly goes to the darkest region of hell, which is known as Andha-tamisra. SB 3.30.34 Having gone through all the miserable, hellish conditions and having passed in a regular order through the lowest forms of animal life prior to human birth, and having thus been purged of his sins, one is reborn again as a human being on this earth.

Hridyananda… So the simple fact of the very notion of proof is based on some kind of belief in the validity of human testimony. We may disagree on who is qualified to give testimony, but we certainly can't disagree that the basis of the very notion of evidence, demonstration, proving and objectivity is based on the testimony of some person… that saw it or heard it or felt it or whatever. So we have this massive testimony about God and I don't see philosophycally how we can just uh… wave a wand and make it all vanish or pretend that that amount and that quality of human testimony means nothing. I don't believe that is consistent with our basic notions of proof.

Theist, Kulapavana, someone… So do the scientist now accept that their own bodies are filled with different living individuals? An obvious place to look?

The Senses Represent the Demigods SB 3.25.32 Lord Kapila said: The senses are symbolic representations of the demigods, and their natural inclination is to work under the direction of the Vedic injunctions. As the senses are representatives of the demigods, so the mind is the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The mind’s natural duty is to serve. When that service spirit is engaged in devotional service to the Personality of Godhead, without any motive, that is far better even than salvation. PURPORT The senses of the living entity are always engaged in some occupation, either in activities prescribed in the injunctions of the Vedas or in material activities. The natural inclination of the senses is to work for something, and the mind is the center of the senses. The mind is actually the leader of the senses; therefore it is called sattva. Similarly, the leader of all the demigods who are engaged in the activities of this material world—the sun-god, moon-god, Indra and others—is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic literature that the demigods are different limbs of the universal body of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Our senses are also controlled by different demigods; our senses are representations of various demigods, and the mind is the representation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The senses, led by the mind, act under the influence of the demigods. When the service is ultimately aimed at the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the senses are in their natural position. The Lord is called Hrsikesa, for He is actually the proprietor and ultimate master of the senses. The senses and the mind are naturally inclined to work, but when they are materially contaminated they work for some material benefit or for the service of the demigods, although actually they are meant to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The senses are called hrsika, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is called Hrsikesa. Indirectly, all the senses are naturally inclined to serve the Supreme Lord. That is called bhakti. Kapiladeva said that when the senses, without desire for material profit or other selfish motives, are engaged in the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one is situated in devotional service. That spirit of service is far better than siddhi, salvation. Bhakti, the inclination to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is in a transcendental position far better than mukti, or liberation. Thus bhakti is the stage after liberation. Unless one is liberated one cannot engage the senses in the service of the Lord. When the senses are engaged either in material activities of sense gratification or in the activities of the Vedic injunctions, there is some motive, but when the same senses are engaged in the service of the Lord and there is no motive, that is called animitta and is the natural inclination of the mind. The conclusion is that when the mind, without being deviated either by Vedic injunctions or by material activities, is fully engaged in Krsna consciousness, or devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is far better than the most aspired-for liberation from material entanglement. Devotional Service Dissolves the Subtle Body SB 3.25.33 Bhakti, devotional service, dissolves the subtle body of the living entity without separate effort, just as fire in the stomach digests all that we eat. PURPORT Bhakti is in a far higher position than mukti because a person’s endeavor to get liberation from the material encagement is automatically served in devotional service. The example is given here that the fire in the stomach can digest whatever we eat. If the digestive power is sufficient, then whatever we can eat will be digested by the fire in the stomach. Similarly, a devotee does not have to try separately to attain liberation. That very service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the process of his liberation because to engage oneself in the service of the Lord is to liberate oneself from material entanglement. Sri Bilvamangala thakura explained this position very nicely. He said, “If I have unflinching devotion unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, then mukti, or liberation, serves me as my maidservant. Mukti, the maidservant, is always ready to do whatever I ask.” For a devotee, liberation is no problem at all. Liberation takes place without separate endeavor. Bhakti, therefore, is far better then mukti or the impersonalist position. The impersonalists undergo severe penances and austerities to attain mukti, but the bhakta, simply by engaging himself in the bhakti process, especially in chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, immediately develops control over the tongue by engaging it in chanting, and accepting the remnants of foodstuff offered to the Personality of Godhead. As soon as the tongue is controlled, naturally all other senses are controlled automatically. Sense control is the perfection of the yoga principle, and one’s liberation begins immediately as soon as he engages himself in the service of the Lord. It is confirmed by Kapiladeva that bhakti, or devotional service, is gariyasi, more glorious than siddhi, liberation.

SB 3.16.6 Anyone in the entire world, even down to the candala, who lives by cooking and eating the flesh of the dog, is immediately purified if he takes bath in hearing through the ear the glorification of My name, fame, etc. Now you have realized Me without doubt; therefore I will not hesitate to lop off My own arm if its conduct is found hostile to you. PURPORT Real purification can take place in human society if its members take to Krsna consciousness. This is clearly stated in all Vedic literature. Anyone who takes to Krsna consciousness in all sincerity, even if he is not very advanced in good behavior, is purified. A devotee can be recruited from any section of human society, although it is not expected that everyone in all segments of society is well behaved. As stated in this verse and in many places in Bhagavad-gita, even if one is not born in a brahmana family, or even if he is born in a family of candalas, if he simply takes to Krsna consciousness he is immediately purified. In Bhagavad-gita, Ninth Chapter, verses 30–32, it is clearly stated that even though a man is not well behaved, if he simply takes to Krsna consciousness he is understood to be a saintly person. As long as a person is in this material world he has two different relationships in his dealings with others—one relationship pertains to the body, and the other pertains to the spirit. As far as bodily affairs or social activities are concerned, although a person is purified on the spiritual platform, it is sometimes seen that he acts in terms of his bodily relationships. If a devotee born in the family of a candala (the lowest caste) is sometimes found engaged in his habitual activities, he is not to be considered a candala. In other words, a Vaisnava should not be evaluated in terms of his body. The sastra states that no one should think the Deity in the temple to be made of wood or stone, and no one should think that a person coming from a lower-caste family who has taken to Krsna consciousness is still of the same low caste. These attitudes are forbidden because anyone who takes to Krsna consciousness is understood to be fully purified. He is at least engaged in the process of purification, and if he sticks to the principle of Krsna consciousness he will very soon be fully purified. The conclusion is that if one takes to Krsna consciousness with all seriousness, he is to be understood as already purified, and Krsna is ready to give him protection by all means. The Lord assures herein that He is ready to give protection to His devotee even if there is need to cut off part of His own body. SB 3.16.7 The Lord continued: Because I am the servitor of My devotees, My lotus feet have become so sacred that they immediately wipe out all sin, and I have acquired such a disposition that the goddess of fortune does not leave Me, even though I have no attachment for her and others praise her beauty and observe sacred vows to secure from her even a slight favor. PURPORT The relationship between the Lord and His devotee is transcendentally beautiful. As the devotee thinks that it is due to being a devotee of the Lord that he is elevated in all good qualities, so the Lord also thinks that it is because of His devotion to the servitor that all His transcendental glories have increased. In other words, as the devotee is always anxious to render service to the Lord, so the Lord is ever anxious to render service to the devotee. The Lord admits herein that although He certainly has the quality that anyone who receives a slight particle of the dust of His lotus feet becomes at once a great personality, this greatness is due to His affection for His devotee. It is because of this affection that the goddess of fortune does not leave Him and that not only one but many thousands of goddesses of fortune engage in His service. In the material world, simply to get a little favor from the goddess of fortune, people observe many rigid regulations of austerity and penance. The Lord cannot tolerate any inconvenience on the part of the devotee. He is therefore famous as bhakta-vatsala. SB 3.16.8 I do not enjoy the oblations offered by the sacrificers in the sacrificial fire, which is one of My own mouths, with the same relish as I do the delicacies overflowing with ghee which are offered to the mouths of the brahmanas who have dedicated to Me the results of their activities and who are ever satisfied with My prasada. PURPORT The devotee of the Lord, or the Vaisnava, does not take anything without offering it to the Lord. Since a Vaisnava dedicates all the results of his activities to the Lord, he does not taste anything eatable which is not first offered to Him. The Lord also relishes giving to the Vaisnava’s mouth all eatables offered to Him. It is clear from this verse that the Lord eats through the sacrificial fire and the brahmana’s mouth. So many articles—grains, ghee, etc.—are offered in sacrifice for the satisfaction of the Lord. The Lord accepts sacrificial offerings from the brahmanas and devotees, and elsewhere it is stated that whatever is given for the brahmanas and Vaisnavas to eat is also accepted by the Lord. But here it is said that He accepts offerings to the mouths of brahmanas and Vaisnavas with even greater relish. The best example of this is found in the life of Advaita Prabhu in his dealings with Haridasa thakura. Even though Haridasa was born of a Muhammadan family, Advaita Prabhu offered him the first dish of prasada after the performance of a sacred fire ceremony. Haridasa thakura informed him that he was born of a Muhammadan family and asked why Advaita Prabhu was offering the first dish to a Muhammadan instead of an elevated brahmana. Out of his humbleness, Haridasa condemned himself a Muhammadan, but Advaita Prabhu, being an experienced devotee, accepted him as a real brahmana. Advaita Prabhu asserted that by offering the first dish to Haridasa thakura, he was getting the result of feeding one hundred thousand brahmanas. The conclusion is that if one can feed a brahmana or Vaisnava, it is better than performing hundreds of thousands of sacrifices. In this age, therefore, it is recommended that harer nama [Adi 17.21]—chanting the holy name of God—and pleasing the Vaisnava are the only means to elevate oneself to spiritual life. SB 3.16.9 I am the master of My unobstructed internal energy, and the water of the Ganges is the remnant left after My feet are washed. That water sanctifies the three worlds, along with Lord siva, who bears it on his head. If I can take the dust of the feet of the Vaisnava on My head, who will refuse to do the same? PURPORT The difference between the internal and external energies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is that in the internal energy, or in the spiritual world, all the opulences are undisturbed, whereas in the external or material energy, all the opulences are temporary manifestations. The Lord’s supremacy is equal in both the spiritual and material worlds, but the spiritual world is called the kingdom of God, and the material world is called the kingdom of maya. Maya refers to that which is not actually fact. The opulence of the material world is a reflection. It is stated in Bhagavad-gita that this material world is just like a tree whose roots are up and branches down. This means that the material world is the shadow of the spiritual world. Real opulence is in the spiritual world. In the spiritual world the predominating Deity is the Lord Himself, whereas in the material world there are many lords. That is the difference between the internal and external energies. The Lord says that although He is the predominating factor of the internal energy and although the material world is sanctified just by the water that has washed His feet, He has the greatest respect for the brahmana and the Vaisnava. When the Lord Himself offers so much respect to the Vaisnava and the brahmana, how can one deny such respect to such personalities? SB 3.16.10 The brahmanas, the cows and the defenseless creatures are My own body. Those whose faculty of judgment has been impaired by their own sin look upon these as distinct from Me. They are just like furious serpents, and they are angrily torn apart by the bills of the vulturelike messengers of Yamaraja, the superintendent of sinful persons. PURPORT The defenseless creatures, according to Brahma-samhita, are the cows, brahmanas, women, children and old men. Of these five, the brahmanas and cows are especially mentioned in this verse because the Lord is always anxious about the benefit of the brahmanas and the cows and is prayed to in this way. The Lord especially instructs, therefore, that no one should be envious of these five, especially the cows and brahmanas. In some of the Bhagavatam readings, the word duhitèh is used instead of duhatih. But in either case, the meaning is the same. Duhatih means “cow,” and duhitèh can also be used to mean “cow” because the cow is supposed to be the daughter of the sun-god. Just as children are taken care of by the parents, women as a class should be taken care of by the father, husband or grown-up son. Those who are helpless must be taken care of by their respective guardians, otherwise the guardians will be subjected to the punishment of Yamaraja, who is appointed by the Lord to supervise the activities of sinful living creatures. The assistants, or messengers, of Yamaraja are likened here to vultures, and those who do not execute their respective duties in protecting their wards are compared to serpents. Vultures deal very seriously with serpents, and similarly the messengers will deal very seriously with neglectful guardians. SB 3.16.11 On the other hand, they captivate My heart who are gladdened in heart and who, their lotus faces enlightened by nectarean smiles, respect the brahmanas, even though the brahmanas utter harsh words. They look upon the brahmanas as My own Self and pacify them by praising them in loving words, even as a son would appease an angry father or as I am pacifying you. PURPORT It has been observed in many instances in the Vedic scriptures that when the brahmanas or Vaisnavas curse someone in an angry mood, the person who is cursed does not take it upon himself to treat the brahmanas or Vaisnavas in the same way. There are many examples of this. For instance, the sons of Kuvera, when cursed by the great sage Narada, did not seek revenge in the same harsh way, but submitted. Here also, when Jaya and Vijaya were cursed by the four Kumaras, they did not become harsh towards them; rather, they submitted. That should be the way of treating brahmanas and Vaisnavas. One may sometimes be faced with a grievous situation created by a brahmana, but instead of meeting him with a similar mood, one should try to pacify him with a smiling face and mild treatment. Brahmanas and Vaisnavas should be accepted as earthly representatives of Narayana. Nowadays some foolish persons have manufactured the term daridra-narayana, indicating that the poor man should be accepted as the representative of Narayana. But in Vedic literature we do not find that poor men should be treated as representatives of Narayana. Of course, “those who are unprotected” are mentioned here, but the definition of this phrase is clear from the sastras. The poor man should not be unprotected, but the brahmana should especially be treated as the representative of Narayana and should be worshiped like Him. It is specifically said that to pacify the brahmanas, one’s face should be lotuslike. A lotuslike face is exhibited when one is adorned with love and affection. In this respect, the example of the father’s being angry at the son and the son’s trying to pacify the father with smiling and sweet words is very appropriate.

… (Says the Joker). Or call it a paradox. Why is the perfection of 'self'-realization, the absorbtion in something else, forgetting yourself?

I respect your space and faith. No hard feelings.

As I said, there is blind doubt too. Is this not the 'ol 'frog in the well' philosophy? ....................... "If we hang our faith blindly on these statements when the facts are questioned in anyway that we are unable to deal with we feel our faith is being attacked." You obviously didn't find much substance in my last post. And you're still not answering my question to you. Look, you're not doing anything special. As I said, anything can be subverted by simply saying I don't believe. And people accept their position as truth. The point is that faith is very important - essential even. Devotees should build faith, not tear it down. You believe in God or you believe in hopelessness. Why indulge in counterproductive acts? You have your doubts, but why make them everyone's doubts? Why do you push until everyone accepts your "big brain" position? This scientific process should be for everyone: be independently free to speculate in your own head or in your lab, but don't advertise your work until it can be scientifically proven. You also should not tear down ideas unless you have better ones. Anything can be subverted just being skeptical. Even the extreme skeptic who denies all knowledge is a hypocrite because he has to 'believe' his own position of doubt. I asked you for a plausible explanation as to why the Vedas would burn the numbers. You won't answer. Therefore, you don't really have any big insights, you're just sharing your doubts and limitations with others. Misery loves company? I told you the process. If you pay more attention to Krsna personally, these kinds of doubts won't matter. ....................... "Large or small its internal crisis time and we may become angry with the questioner as a defesive measure." I wasn't feeling anger until I read your post here. Now I feel it a little. Who's having the crises here? You are dodging my questions and infusing doubt. You act like many quests. It's really all a bluff because all you can say is "I don't understand." Well, maybe you're not qualified to understand as most of us are. That doesn't put you in a position to start telling people to accept this or reject that in the Vedas or otherwise tell them what the essence of the Vedas is. You keep waving your doubt like this and I won't talk to you either. You want to act like Guest(s), I'll treat you like 'em. Speculations can bring you down if you feel it has to be explained to you. Are you really in a postion to challenge? I say you need a better idea to challenge. The Vaisnava tradition is not to pick apart and selectively accept this but not that in the Vedas, but rather to accept the Vedas as a whole. If you have better ideas, let's hear them. Is our position really objective if it effectively compromises the authority of the Vedas? Are we acting as devotees? One also cannot know God unless he accepts Him as inconceivable.

I basically accept Prabhupada's presentation(s) based on his authority. But those presentations themselves are more authoritive than Prabhupada. Prabhupada says God spoke this to Arjuna. Now God personally is speaking. God can make all the claims he wants to and I accept whatever is in Vedic literature as spoken by or directly representative of God… on God's authority. Because I liked what I've tasted, I buy the whole thing. Based on what I could verify, I accept the whole thing. I mean everybody does that type of association all the time. The scientists don't personally retest every experimental precedent; they accept the authority of predecessors. That's basically all I'm doing. There is the qualified teacher, but there is also the qualified candidate for knowledge. Both have to be there for the exchange of knowledge and culture. We don't have the knowledge in the beginning, but we excercise our faith and that faith later transforms into something more substantial. There is so much we don't know but later discover through our excercise of faith. I recognize my limitations in grasping the proper perspective here. There is a world of history (beyond my experimentation) between me and said event. I don't know what all that history is. And I certainly can't imagine these disputed descriptions in my brain as easy as I can you shopping at Wal-Mart for example. But because these stories and events are presented as part of the Vedas, I accept them as real. Now as to the mechanics or the scientific description of these disputed events, I can't say any better than you or anyone else I know of. That takes more conficential knowledge. I mean we're just not privy to that info. We don't experience those social clicks. I often can't even tell if it is allegory or literal. So being so full of ignorance, it is quite presumptuous of me to debate the merit of the Vedas. I just accept it all on a qualitative level as truth. There is blind faith. There is also blind doubt. I am comfortable with my position of not knowing these "details" based on the strength of the information in which these so-called exaggerated claims are found. Now I'll repeat a question to you: What could be the possible reason for exaggerating exact numbers in Vedic scriptures? If you can't say, it's probably best just to let it be instead of giving directions to a place you haven't been. I'll even offer a speculative answer to my question to you… Perhaps these fantastic descriptions are there to test your faith. What do you say? I want to hear your answer. Are you somehow being cheated by these descriptions? I have found the Vedas capable of explaning just about everything, including infinity. So why burn the numbers? What do you say? You don't understand God through numbers or speculation. When we approach Krsna on a personal level and have that dialogue, we are experiencing reality. And that experience verifies everything else. Other ways of information become inferior and trivial - possibly even the scriptures. On the other hand, that internal dialogue to ourselves is what crazy people do. Now I still want to hear what you say. So I leave you with this direct question: What do you say? You must have a "scientific theory" to account for the exaggeration of numbers in the Vedas because people generally contest positions when they think they have a better one. You are questioning the very integrity of the Vedas. What do you say?