ancient_paztriot

"Obviously not meant to be taken literally" Well, you say so because you can't believe it. But the normal way of using numbers is to indicate something literal. So I don't think it's so obvious after all. Maybe something got lost in translation through the ages. Maybe not. This is for sure: You can always upsurp anything with ordinary skepticism; "I just don't believe it." And people naturally accept their own beliefs as facts. Appears to be another situation where we just don't have enough information to make a logical deduction.

Well, Krsna has no personal need of this manifestation. It is a penance on His part to do it for us. It is a penance for Krsna to put up with our troubles? And rectify us? Penance in the ordinary sense of taking the trouble to teach and not interfere with our free will? (I think a keyword for penance is follow-through. The dictionary def. reminds me of self-effacement. But there are all kinds of penance and goals).

I looked penance up in My World Book Dictionary and same thing. I don't like their definitions. I don't think they have the concept of people who feel pleasure doing penance. I'd do a Vedabase search on it but it's not installed (and has to be authorized).

My perspective right now is that we are all gamblers. We play the hand we're dealt. We may bluff, but even in selecting our safer bets we display our faith. We may not know if the traded cards are what we want, but we bet on these numbers and not those. But why? What particular combination of the five factors of action are taking place at any particular moment? Nothing is entirely certain but 'death' in a world where everything has it's contradiction. And that's the thing we ignore to the end. By the way, I agree with your stated sentiment.

The different positions and faiths… we have to jump. The only difference is where you jump.

SB 3.4.34 The Lord’s glorious acts and His acceptance of various transcendental forms for the performance of extraordinary pastimes in the mortal world are very difficult for anyone other than His devotees to understand, and for the beasts they are simply a mental disturbance. PURPORT The transcendental forms and pastimes of the Lord, as described in Bhagavad-gita, are difficult subject matters for those who are not devotees to understand. The Lord never reveals Himself to persons like the jnanis and yogis. And there are others who, because of their envying the Lord from the bottom of their hearts, are classified amongst the beasts, and for such envious beasts the subject matter of the Lord’s appearance and disappearance is simply a mental disturbance. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (7.15), the miscreants who are simply concerned with material enjoyment, who work very hard like beasts of burden, can hardly know the Personality of Godhead at any stage due to asurika-bhava, or a spirit of revolt against the Supreme Lord. The transcendental bodily expansions manifested by the Lord for His pastimes in the mortal world, and the appearance and disappearance of such transcendental expansions, are difficult subject matters, and those who are not devotees are advised not to discuss the Lord’s appearance and disappearance, lest they commit further offenses at the lotus feet of the Lord. The more they discuss the transcendental appearance and disappearance of the Lord in the asuric spirit, the more they enter into the darkest region of hell, as stated in Bhagavad-gita (16.20). Anyone who is against the transcendental loving service of the Lord is more or less a beastly creature, as confirmed in this verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam. .................................... Bg 16.20 Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence. PURPORT It is known that God is all-merciful, but here we find that God is never merciful to the demoniac. It is clearly stated that the demoniac people, life after life, are put into the wombs of similar demons, and, not achieving the mercy of the Supreme Lord, they go down and down, so that at last they achieve bodies like those of cats, dogs and hogs. It is clearly stated that such demons have practically no chance of receiving the mercy of God at any stage of later life. In the Vedas also it is stated that such persons gradually sink to become dogs and hogs. It may be then argued in this connection that God should not be advertised as all-merciful if He is not merciful to such demons. In answer to this question, in the Vedanta-sutra we find that the Supreme Lord has no hatred for anyone. The placing of the asuras, the demons, in the lowest status of life is simply another feature of His mercy. Sometimes the asuras are killed by the Supreme Lord, but this killing is also good for them, for in Vedic literature we find that anyone who is killed by the Supreme Lord becomes liberated. There are instances in history of many asuras—Ravana, Kamsa, Hiranyakasipu—to whom the Lord appeared in various incarnations just to kill. Therefore God’s mercy is shown to the asuras if they are fortunate enough to be killed by Him.

SB 2.9.23 O sinless Brahma, you may know from Me that it was I who first ordered you to undergo penance when you were perplexed in your duty. Such penance is My heart and soul, and therefore penance and I are nondifferent. SB 2.9.24 I create this cosmos by such penance, I maintain it by the same energy, and I withdraw it all by the same energy. Therefore the potential power is penance only. PURPORT In executing penance, one must be determined to return home, back to Godhead, and must decide to undergo all types of tribulations for that end. Even for material prosperity, name and fame, one has to undergo severe types of penance, otherwise no one can become an important figure in this material world. Why, then, are there severe types of penance for the perfection of devotional service? An easygoing life and attainment of perfection in transcendental realization cannot go together. The Lord is more clever than any living entity; therefore He wants to see how painstaking the devotee is in devotional service. The order is received from the Lord, either directly or through the bona fide spiritual master, and to execute that order, however painstaking, is the severe type of penance. One who follows the principle rigidly is sure to achieve success in attaining the Lord's mercy.

New technology (I don't know how new). A really small, thin memory device that plugs into a usb port on your computer, but you can wear it around your neck like jewelry. It mounts like and works like any 120mb volume. Costs about $50.

SB 2.5.9 Lord Brahma said: My dear boy Narada, being merciful to all (including me) you have asked all these questions because I have been inspired to see into the prowess of the Almighty Personality of Godhead. PURPORT Brahmaji, being so questioned by Naradaji, congratulated him, for it is usual for the devotees to become very enthusiastic whenever they are questioned concerning the Almighty Personality of Godhead. That is the sign of a pure devotee of the Lord. Such discourses on the transcendental activities of the Lord purify the atmosphere in which such discussions are held, and the devotees thus become enlivened while answering such questions. It is purifying both for the questioners and for one who answers the questions. The pure devotees are not only satisfied by knowing everything about the Lord, but are also eager to broadcast the information to others, for they want to see that the glories of the Lord are known to everyone. Thus the devotee feels satisfied when such an opportunity is offered to him. This is the basic principle of missionary activities.

"for them the clear distinctions between sin and virtue MUST be kept. otherwise they will commit most horrible activities in the name of God" Hey, the irreligious have historically committed the most heineous crimes… period. Stalin, Hitler, Bush and all these people… businessmen pushing millions into poverty, etc. are simply profiteering by their own calculations… something any living entity can do… they apply their free will in excercising false proprietorship. Take God and religion out and they can act anyway as their independence dictates… including advocating God officially for others but secretely not for themselves. I mean take God out and all explanation is gone. Nothing left but madness. Then it no longer matters who does or says 'what?'.

It's the commercials I can't stand. You sortta have to listen to see if a real person answers. Here's a message they could all use… "Your call is important to us. And nothing about making you wait indicates anything different."

Just my position I'm comfortable with: I can easily understand why the scriptures will describe this or that queen as the most beautiful and then the same again for someone else. Same examples with men as well as other opulences. But when scriptures give exact numbers… well they're exact; mathematical. I can't imagine why they would be different. I think taking them more or less might be interpretation. I could be wrong. That's just how I see it. But then the whole numbers thing is a sidebar to the story. It doesn't make any real difference unless it gets in your way.

the damned nuisance is waiting on the phone to talk to someone.

Six billion figure? Leaves me wondering what I know. Can you post that reference? Well what do you accept? What to reject? I think the figure for available material bodies is way over the scientific estimate too. If it's not in scripture, it is certainly suspect to heresay. Everyone knows people will distort stories in passing them on. Then too I think I understand that the Earth is shrinking… water is claiming more land in Kali-yuga. What the Earth was then I can't really know in my circumstance. I know the process for understanding these things is not empirical because it is not subject to our experimentation. Most quantifyable things we will never know. I can't imagine the descriptions of astras at the Kurukshetra war either, or a person with 1,000 arms. I'm just an animal to higher beings. Even knowing these things but still not changing my heart leaves me an animal. So I don't put much importance in that kind of knowledge. But it will eat away at you if you let it.

I don't know. I accept your answer of 1/10th. Me thinks the 3rd World War will be a much bigger death toll given the weapons and the demons who command them. I mean America has been shown to entertain a policy of destroying everyone just so no one emerges from the war stronger than them. Almost nothing is known to be 5,000 old… except the pyramids? But what a thought! Has anyone bothered to go digging around Kurukshetra? You don't really expect to find a thing where there's a recycling program. Maybe alot of that evidence is constituted in different bodies now… or buildings… or whatever.

SB 1.17.24 TEXT 24 In the age of Satya [truthfulness] your four legs were established by the four principles of austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness. But it appears that three of your legs are broken due to rampant irreligion in the form of pride, lust for women, and intoxication. PURPORT The deluding energy, or material nature, can act upon the living beings proportionately in terms of the living beings' falling prey to the deluding attraction of maya. Moths are captivated by the glaring brightness of light, and thus they become prey to the fire. Similarly, the deluding energy is always captivating the conditioned souls to become prey to the fire of delusion, and the Vedic scriptures warn the conditioned souls not to become prey to delusion but to get rid of it. The Vedas warn us to go not to the darkness of ignorance but to the progressive path of light. The Lord Himself also warns that the deluding power of material energy is too powerful to overcome, but one who completely surrenders unto the Lord can easily do so. But to surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord is also not very easy. Such surrender is possible by persons of austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness. These four principles of advanced civilization were remarkable features in the age of Satya. In that age, every human being was practically a qualified brahmana of the highest order, and in the social orders of life they were all paramahamsas, or the topmost in the renounced order. By cultural standing, the human beings were not at all subjected to the deluding energy. Such strong men of character were competent enough to get away from the clutches of maya. But gradually, as the basic principles of brahminical culture, namely austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness, became curtailed by proportionate development of pride, attachment for women and intoxication, the path of salvation or the path of transcendental bliss retreated far, far away from human society. With the progression of the age of Kali, people are becoming very proud, and attached to women and intoxication. By the influence of the age of Kali, even a pauper is proud of his penny, the women are always dressed in an overly attractive fashion to victimize the minds of men, and the man is addicted to drinking wine, smoking, drinking tea and chewing tobacco, etc. All these habits, or so-called advancement of civilization, are the root causes of all irreligiosities, and therefore it is not possible to check corruption, bribery and nepotism. Man cannot check all these evils simply by statutory acts and police vigilance, but he can cure the disease of the mind by the proper medicine, namely advocating the principles of brahminical culture or the principles of austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness. Modern civilization and economic development are creating a new situation of poverty and scarcity with the result of blackmailing the consumer's commodities. If the leaders and the rich men of the society spend fifty percent of their accumulated wealth mercifully for the misled mass of people and educate them in God consciousness, the knowledge of Bhagavatam, certainly the age of Kali will be defeated in its attempt to entrap the conditioned souls. We must always remember that false pride, or too high an estimation of one's own values of life, undue attachment to women or association with them, and intoxication will divert human civilization from the path of peace, however much the people clamor for peace in the world. The preaching of the Bhagavatam principles will automatically render all men austere, clean both inside and outside, merciful to the suffering, and truthful in daily behavior. That is the way of correcting the flaws of human society, which are very prominently exhibited at the present moment.

I was trying to imagine what this number above would be in terms of geographical numbers. It would be half the world, wouldn't it?

SB 1.11.34 The Lord was pacified after killing those kings who were burdensome to the earth. They were puffed up with their military strength, their horses, elephants, chariots, infantry, etc. He Himself was not a party in the fight. He simply created hostility between the powerful administrators, and they fought amongst themselves. He was like the wind which causes friction between bamboos and so sparks a fire. PURPORT As stated above, the living beings are not factual enjoyers of things which are manifested as God's creation. The Lord is the genuine proprietor and enjoyer of everything manifested in His creation. Unfortunately, influenced by the deluding energy, the living being becomes a false enjoyer under the dictation of the modes of nature. Puffed up by such a false sense of becoming God, the deluded living being increases his material strength by so many activities and thus becomes the burden of the earth, so much so that the earth becomes completely uninhabitable by the sane. This state of affairs is called dharmasya glani, or misuse of the energy of the human being. When such misuse of human energy is prominent, the saner living beings become perturbed by the awkward situation created by the vicious administrators, who are simply burdens of the earth, and the Lord appears by His internal potency just to save the saner section of humanity and to alleviate the burden due to the earthly administrators in different parts of the world. He does not favor either of the unwanted administrators, but by His potential power He creates hostility between such unwanted administrators, as the air creates fire in the forest by the friction of the bamboos. The fire in the forest takes place automatically by the force of the air, and similarly the hostility between different groups of politicians takes place by the unseen design of the Lord. The unwanted administrators, puffed up by false power and military strength, thus become engaged in fighting amongst themselves over ideological conflicts and so exhaust themselves of all powers. The history of the world reflects this factual will of the Lord, and it will continue to be enacted until the living beings are attached to the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gita this fact is very vividly described (Bg. 7.14). It is said, "The deluding energy is My potency, and thus it is not possible for the dependent living beings to supersede the strength of the material modes. But those who take shelter in Me [the Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna] can cross over the gigantic ocean of material energy." This means that no one can establish peace and prosperity in the world by fruitive activities or by speculative philosophy or ideology. The only way is to surrender unto the Supreme Lord and thus become free from the illusion of the deluding energy. Unfortunately persons who are engaged in destructive work are unable to surrender to the Personality of Godhead. They are all fools of the first order; they are the lowest of the human species of life; they are robbed of their knowledge, although apparently they seem to be academically educated. They are all of the demoniac mentality, always challenging the supreme power of the Lord. Those who are very materialistic, always hankering after material power and strength, are undoubtedly fools of the first order because they have no information of the living energy, and being ignorant of that supreme spiritual science, they are absorbed in material science, which ends with the end of the material body. They are the lowest of human beings because the human life is especially meant for reestablishing the lost relation with the Lord, and they miss this opportunity by being engaged in material activities. They are robbed of their knowledge because even after prolonged speculation they cannot reach to the stage of knowing the Personality of Godhead, the summum bonum of everything. And all of them are men of demoniac principle, and they suffer the consequences, as did such materialistic heroes as Ravana, Hiranyakasipu, Kamsa and others.

SB 1.8.46 King Yudhisthira, who was much aggrieved, could not be convinced, despite instructions by great sages headed by Vyasa and the Lord Krsëa Himself, the performer of superhuman feats, and despite all historical evidence. PURPORT The pious King Yudhisthira was mortified because of the mass massacre of human beings in the Battle of Kuruksetra, especially on his account. Duryodhana was there on the throne, and he was doing well in his administration, and in one sense there was no need of fighting. But on the principle of justice Yudhisthira was to replace him. The whole clique of politics centered around this point, and all the kings and residents of the whole world became involved in this fight between the rival brothers. Lord Krsna was also there on the side of King Yudhisthira. It is said in the Mahabharata, adi-parva (20) that 640,000,000 men were killed in the eighteen days of the Battle of Kuruksetra, and some hundreds of thousands were missing. Practically this was the greatest battle in the world within five thousand years. This mass killing simply to enthrone Maharaja Yudhisthira was too mortifying, so he tried to be convinced with evidences from histories by great sages like Vyasa and the Lord Himself that the fight was just because the cause was just. But Maharaja Yudhisthira would not be satisfied, even though he was instructed by the greatest personalities of the time. Krsna is designated herein as the performer of superhuman actions, but in this particular instance neither He nor Vyasa could convince King Yudhisthira. Does it mean that He failed to be a superhuman actor? No, certainly not. The interpretation is that the Lord as Isvara, or the Supersoul in the hearts of both King Yudhisthira and Vyasa, performed still more superhuman action because the Lord desired it. As Supersoul of King Yudhisthira, He did not allow the King to be convinced by the words of Vyasa and others, including Himself, because He desired that the King hear instructions from the dying Bhismadeva, who was another great devotee of the Lord. The Lord wanted that at the last stage of his material existence the great warrior Bhismadeva see Him personally and see his beloved grandchildren, King Yudhisthira, etc., now situated on the throne, and thus pass away very peacefully. Bhismadeva was not at all satisfied to fight against the Pandavas, who were his beloved fatherless grandchildren. But the ksatriyas are also very stern people, and therefore he was obliged to take the side of Duryodhana because he was maintained at the expense of Duryodhana. Besides this, the Lord also desired that King Yudhisthira be pacified by the words of Bhismadeva so that the world could see that Bhismadeva excelled all in knowledge, including the Lord Himself. ............................... Very interesting… As Supersoul of King Yudhisthira, He did not allow the King to be convinced by the words of Vyasa and others, including Himself, because He desired that the King hear instructions from the dying Bhismadeva, who was another great devotee of the Lord.

SB 1.8.40 TEXT 40 All these cities and villages are flourishing in all respects because the herbs and grains are in abundance, the trees are full of fruits, the rivers are flowing, the hills are full of minerals and the oceans full of wealth. And this is all due to Your glancing over them. PURPORT Human prosperity flourishes by natural gifts and not by gigantic industrial enterprises. The gigantic industrial enterprises are products of a godless civilization, and they cause the destruction of the noble aims of human life. The more we go on increasing such troublesome industries to squeeze out the vital energy of the human being, the more there will be unrest and dissatisfaction of the people in general, although a few only can live lavishly by exploitation. The natural gifts such as grains and vegetables, fruits, rivers, the hills of jewels and minerals, and the seas full of pearls are supplied by the order of the Supreme, and as He desires, material nature produces them in abundance or restricts them at times. The natural law is that the human being may take advantage of these godly gifts by nature and satisfactorily flourish on them without being captivated by the exploitative motive of lording it over material nature. The more we attempt to exploit material nature according to our whims of enjoyment, the more we shall become entrapped by the reaction of such exploitative attempts. If we have sufficient grains, fruits, vegetables and herbs, then what is the necessity of running a slaughterhouse and killing poor animals? A man need not kill an animal if he has sufficient grains and vegetables to eat. The flow of river waters fertilizes the fields, and there is more than what we need. Minerals are produced in the hills, and the jewels in the ocean. If the human civilization has sufficient grains, minerals, jewels, water, milk, etc., then why should it hanker after terrible industrial enterprises at the cost of the labor of some unfortunate men? But all these natural gifts are dependent on the mercy of the Lord. What we need, therefore, is to be obedient to the laws of the Lord and achieve the perfection of human life by devotional service. The indications by Kuntidevi are just to the point. She desires that God's mercy be bestowed upon them so that natural prosperity be maintained by His grace.

Of coarse I agree. Talk about context? Look at the context of the whole passage. But that's a long application list you got going there. Is anybody doing the needful? I see the "most sinful" thriving at the expense of ALL others.

SB 1.7.36 A person who knows the principles of religion does not kill an enemy who is careless, intoxicated, insane, asleep, afraid or devoid of his chariot. Nor does he kill a boy, a woman, a foolish creature or a surrendered soul. PURPORT An enemy who does not resist is never killed by a warrior who knows the principles of religion. Formerly battles were fought on the principles of religion and not for the sake of sense gratification. If the enemy happened to be intoxicated, asleep, etc., as above mentioned, he was never to be killed. These are some of the codes of religious war. Formerly war was never declared by the whims of selfish political leaders; it was carried out on religious principles free from all vices. Violence carried out on religious principles is far superior to so-called nonviolence. SB 1.7.37 A cruel and wretched person who maintains his existence at the cost of others' lives deserves to be killed for his own well-being, otherwise he will go down by his own actions. PURPORT A life for a life is just punishment for a person who cruelly and shamelessly lives at the cost of another's life. Political morality is to punish a person by a death sentence in order to save a cruel person from going to hell. That a murderer is condemned to a death sentence by the state is good for the culprit because in his next life he will not have to suffer for his act of murder. Such a death sentence for the murderer is the lowest possible punishment offered to him, and it is said in the smrti-Sastras that men who are punished by the king on the principle of a life for a life are purified of all their sins, so much so that they may be eligible for being promoted to the planets of heaven. According to Manu, the great author of civic codes and religious principles, even the killer of an animal is to be considered a murderer because animal food is never meant for the civilized man, whose prime duty is to prepare himself for going back to Godhead. He says that in the act of killing an animal, there is a regular conspiracy by the party of sinners, and all of them are liable to be punished as murderers exactly like a party of conspirators who kill a human being combinedly. He who gives permission, he who kills the animal, he who sells the slaughtered animal, he who cooks the animal, he who administers distribution of the foodstuff, and at last he who eats such cooked animal food are all murderers, and all of them are liable to be punished by the laws of nature. No one can create a living being despite all advancement of material science, and therefore no one has the right to kill a living being by one's independent whims. For the animal-eaters, the scriptures have sanctioned restricted animal sacrifices only, and such sanctions are there just to restrict the opening of slaughterhouses and not to encourage animal killing. The procedure under which animal sacrifice is allowed in the scriptures is good both for the animal sacrificed and the animal-eaters. It is good for the animal in the sense that the sacrificed animal is at once promoted to the human form of life after being sacrificed at the altar, and the animal-eater is saved from grosser types of sins (eating meats supplied by organized slaughterhouses which are ghastly places for breeding all kinds of material afflictions to society, country and the people in general). The material world is itself a place always full of anxieties, and by encouraging animal slaughter the whole atmosphere becomes polluted more and more by war, pestilence, famine and many other unwanted calamities.

SB 11.15.27 A person who perfectly meditates on Me acquires My nature of being the supreme ruler and controller. His order, like Mine, can never be frustrated by any means. PURPORT By the command of the Supreme Personality of Godhead the entire creation is moving. As stated in Bhagavad-gita (9.10), mayadhyaknena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram hetunanena kaunteya jagad viparivartate “This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kunti, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.” Similarly, Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given His command that people all over the world should take to Krnna consciousness. The sincere devotees of the Lord should go all over the world repeating the Lord’s command. In this way, they can share in His mystic opulence of giving orders that cannot be counteracted. .............................. I mean it's not allegorical, right?

Uddhava to Krsna… SB 11.19.10 O almighty Lord, please be merciful and uplift this hopeless living entity who has fallen into the dark hole of material existence, where the snake of time has bitten him. In spite of such abominable conditions, this poor living entity has tremendous desire to relish the most insignificant material happiness. Please save me, my Lord, by pouring down the nectar of Your instructions, which awaken one to spiritual freedom. PURPORT Material life, so much cherished by the nondevotees, is here compared to a dark hole filled with poisonous snakes. In material life there is certainly no clear understanding of one’s ultimate identity, of God or of the universe. Everything is vague and dark. In material life the poisonous snake of time is always threatening, and at any moment our near and dear ones will be killed by the mortal fangs of the serpent. Ultimately, we ourselves will also be bitten and killed by the poisonous effects of time. The word sampatitam indicates that the falldown of the living entity is complete. In other words, he cannot get up again. Sri Uddhava therefore appeals to the Lord to be kind to these poor fallen souls, humbly represented by his own self. If one receives the Lord’s mercy, then even without any further qualification one can go back home, back to Godhead; and without the mercy of Lord Krsna, the most learned, austere, powerful, wealthy or beautiful man will be pathetically crushed by the material world’s machinery of illusion. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, as described here, is mahanubhava, or the greatest, most powerful and most merciful personality, whose influence extends everywhere. The Lord’s mercy is manifest in the form of His nectarean instructions such as Bhagavad-gita and the Uddhava-gita, being spoken here. The word ksudra-sukhoru-tarsam reveals the irony of material existence. Although material happiness is ksudra, or ridiculous and insignificant, our desire to enjoy it is uru, tremendous. Our disproportionate hankering to enjoy dead matter is certainly an illusory state of mind, and it gives us constant distress, keeping us bound up in the dark hole of material existence. Every living entity should put aside his false prestige based on ephemeral bodily qualifications and appeal sincerely to the Supreme Lord, Krsna, for His mercy. The Lord hears every sincere appeal, from even the most fallen soul, and the effects of the Lord’s mercy are wonderful. Although jnanis, yogis and fruitive workers are laboriously endeavoring to achieve their respective goals, their position is precarious and uncertain. Simply by achieving the mercy of Lord Krsna, however, one can very easily attain the highest perfection of life. If even one who is not a great or pure devotee of Lord Krsna sincerely appeals to the Lord for His mercy, the Lord is sure to give it generously.

"… Perhaps he repented of that and I missed it. Somehow I doubt it." I said 'shameless' in my earlier post because these people know enough to argue, but when they don't accept the standard philosophy and precepts which they cannot defeat, their 'pretext' is revealed. Some of them are proudly marching to the darkest depths of hell.