ancient_paztriot

And so does hope - for now. If one carefully considers that no liberated persons are available, then he is right to wait instead of just getting "stamped". That can also be sincerity. You can suggests otherwise, but he may not accept your opinion, right or wrong. The fighting starts when we try to prove our opinion to others. But truth is duality. Both positions right. Both postions wrong. The truth comes in the application to KC.

Not esoteric… offensive. So much of it is subjective… based on preference of the individual and what he believes and pursues. He may think he has a liberated guru. He may be right. You may be wrong and offensive in suggesting there aren't any. You might offend someone even telling the truth. I prefer to leave the subject alone because of the possibilities and the nature of the commitment. Babhru recently suggested that someone take his marriage advice somewhere else. I see the guru issue alot like that. Of coarse it can be handled logically, but it is an emotionally charged issue… like abortion. Devotees rarely - if ever - move from their positions on this. But they will not hesitate to be offensive in their self-righteousness. I can't remember an exception. But let's not forget we're talking about supposed superiors. People who may have a better program than yours (or mine). Are we in a postion to criticize? Seems you'd have to be on a pedestal to make those very insightful decisions about people you may have never met. A liberted soul can see from Krsna's perspective as to our position. But our knowledge is always filtered by our own ego. Our positions are mysteries to each other. Some are going. Some are coming. You you tell? How many fingers are pointing at you when you point? We all more or less have a good idea of liberation based on the experience of Prabhupada. But big problems insue when we start pointing fingers and saying this person is 30%, that one 60… and so on. This is not reasonable.

"this "other extreme" was possible because the Vedic system of humble gurus devoid of material power was rejected in ISKCON." I've never heard it quite put like that. I agree. Problem is, when you're not allowed to practice the truth, then lies become the new tradition. I mean who understands just minding your own business anymore? We slave away for business or governments that are as agressive as invading armies.

Theist and I have also seen the other extreme. So have you. Theists and I are both open to the possibility of anyone crossing the line and achieving that liberated status. But we hate the imposters. We gossips tend to indulge our postions. I do it too. But I think WE all agree on this guru issue. Is there no solidarity anymore?

Hridayananda… … but when they make that statement it's not really a scientific statement. It may be the opinion of someone who happens to be a scientists. But I don't see how you could call it… Because the essential distinction between science and non-science is the insistence upon observation and experimentation. So the scientific theory by definition is not observable. In other words, I have question that you as a scientists should this challenge: That uh how could even theoretecally… how could it be a scientific issue since it is not observable? ..................................... I was also thinking of how changing the regs is like religious theory. ..................................... Hridayanda: Right, intelligent hunch. Guest: But that hunch is not scientific. Hridy: So what I would be saying. This is almost like an ethical observation. Just like the drug administration does not allow you to manufacture drug until it's proven that it works. You can experiment all you want in the laboratory; that's you freedom as a scientists; you can imagine or infer anything you like. But you can't market your drug until it's confirmed. So why do they market their theories before they are confirmed? That's my point.

I don't think they'd be over there fighting for oil now if that were true. But then is it the Eurodollar? I think they try to keep people confused while they act on "reality". Didn't read it all. But I caught this… "Think about it ... while not inexhaustible, deep Earth reserves of inorganic crude oil and commercially feasible extraction would provide the world with generations of low-cost fuel." You'd think this guy doesn't even know how much oil he breathes everyday. A hospital will give 'em an objective perspective.

Maybe people will just loose all motive to become pure if that liberated standard is compromised. I think we've seen just that. We can also change the standards for bank robbery or abortion or whatever.

I have heard different explanations on the Age of Aquarius too.

Maybe they could read the future and decided to act it out.

Hridayananda… When you take a cunch of neurons firing, that not really consciousness; especially higher consciousness. So granting that's true and it's obvious, then the difficulty is where do we go from there? Simply accept as a propetual problem that the most fundamental reality for all of us - our own consciousness - cannot be understood scientifically? Of coarse some things can be treated scientifically. I don't deny that psychology for example can treat some aspects of science scientifically, but when we get into the highest realms… In other words, whn consciousness attempts to transcend the limitations of ordinary physical reality… and of coarse throughout history, religionists and philosophers and poets and so on have thought they were experiencing somethig and have described something which offers the man at least the hope and vision of a greater reality… which man can participate in the infinite, can someone become immortal… and now gain a vast understanding of these beyond his own limited physical world. So certainly that's a very attractive offer. Even science has become enchanted by that prospect… because if you go to Disney World, Epcot… I never have, but… I know in Epcot they come up with this big propaganda, uh what science is gonna do for you. And you know it includes such super things like immortality and omniscience and all kinds of amazing things which religion used to offer. So whether it's Epcot or Bible or Krsna, man cannot resist that urge or that calling… ................................. … what has happened is that these great dreams of humanity are being more or less admisnistrated or governed by irrational people - on both ends; irrational scientists who make wild assertions about the big bang and this and that and even evolution when they don't have the slightest idea what really happened; and on the other hand are what I would call irrational, unphilosophical fanatical religionists who also make claims. And so there's no middle ground of a rational and systematic approach to things which are not physical.

Just imagine the karma of someone like Bush or Stalin or Hitler. I mean they have heavy social and personal karmic burdens. I would trade some of my own merit just to know what happens to people like that. Are there any stories in the Vedas following a person through hell and to another life?

Interested in where you're going? Came across this working… SB 5.26 Summary The Twenty-sixth Chapter describes how a sinful man goes to different hells, where he is punished in various ways by the assistants of Yamaraja. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (3.27): prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate “The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature.” The foolish person thinks he is independent of any law. He thinks there is no God or regulative principle and that he can do whatever he likes. Thus he engages in different sinful activities, and as a result, he is put into different hellish conditions life after life, to be punished by the laws of nature. The basic principle of his suffering is that he foolishly thinks himself independent, although he is strictly under the control of the laws of material nature. These laws act due to the influence of the three modes of nature, and therefore each human being also works under three different types of influence. According to how he acts, he suffers different reactions in his next life or in this life. Religious persons act differently from atheists, and therefore they suffer different reactions. Sukadeva Gosvami describes the following twenty-eight hells: Tamisra, Andhatamisra, Raurava, Maharaurava, Kumbhipaka. Kalasutra, Asi-patravana, Sukaramukha, Andhakupa, Krmibhojana. Sandamsa, Taptasurmi, Vajrakantaka-salmali, Vaitarani, Puyoda, Pranarodha, Visasana, Lalabhaksa, Sarameyadana, Avici, Ayahpana. Ksarakardama, Raksogana-bhojana, sulaprota, Dandasuka. Avata-nirodhana, Paryavartana and Sucimukha. A person who steals another’s money, wife or possessions is put into the hell known as Tamisra. A man who tricks someone and enjoys his wife is put into the extremely hellish condition known as Andhatamisra. A foolish person absorbed in the bodily concept of life, who on the basis of this principle maintains himself or his wife and children by committing violence against other living entities, is put into the hell known as Raurava. There the animals he killed take birth as creatures called rurus and cause great suffering for him. Those who kill different animals and birds and then cook them are put by the agents of Yamaraja into the hell known as Kumbhipaka, where they are boiled in oil. A person who kills a brahmana is put into the hell known as Kalasutra, where the land, perfectly level and made of copper, is as hot as an oven. The killer of a brahmana burns in that land for many years. One who does not follow scriptural injunctions but who does everything whimsically or follows some rascal is put into the hell known as Asi-patravana. A government official who poorly administers justice, or who punishes an innocent man, is taken by the assistants of Yamaraja to the hell known as Sukaramukha, where he is mercilessly beaten. God has given advanced consciousness to the human being. Therefore he can feel the suffering and happiness of other living beings. The human being bereft of his conscience, however, is prone to cause suffering for other living beings. The assistants of Yamaraja put such a person into the hell known as Andhakupa, where he receives proper punishment from his victims. Any person who does not receive or feed a guest properly but who personally enjoys eating is put into the hell known as Krmibhojana. There an unlimited number of worms and insects continuously bite him. A thief is put into the hell known as Sandamsa. A person who has sexual relations with a woman who is not to be enjoyed is put into the hell known as Taptasurmi. A person who enjoys sexual relations with animals is put into the hell known as Vajrakantaka-salmali. A person born into an aristocratic or highly placed family but who does not act accordingly is put into the hellish trench of blood, pus and urine called the Vaitarani River. One who lives like an animal is put into the hell called Puyoda. A person who mercilessly kills animals in the forest without sanction is put into the hell called Pranarodha. A person who kills animals in the name of religious sacrifice is put into the hell named Visasana. A man who forces his wife to drink his semen is put into the hell called Lalabhaksa. One who sets a fire or administers poison to kill someone is put into the hell known as Sarameyadana. A man who earns his livelihood by bearing false witness is put into the hell known as Avici. A person addicted to drinking wine is put into the hell named Ayahpana. One who violates etiquette by not showing proper respect to superiors is put into the hell known as Ksarakardama. A person who sacrifices human beings to Bhairava is put into the hell called Raksogana-bhojana. A person who kills pet animals is put into the hell called sulaprota. A person who gives trouble to others is put into the hell known as Dandasuka. One who imprisons a living entity within a cave is put into the hell known as Avata-nirodhana. A person who shows unwarranted wrath toward a guest in his house is put into the hell called Paryavartana. A person maddened by possessing riches and thus deeply absorbed in thinking of how to collect money is put into the hell known as Sucimukha. After describing the hellish planets, Sukadeva Gosvami describes how pious persons are elevated to the highest planetary system, where the demigods live, and how they then come back again to this earth when the results of their pious activities are finished. Finally he describes the universal form of the Lord and glorifies the Lord’s activities. .................................................. Don't feed a guest and go to hell? How many hells are we creating? This Bhagavatam was especially written for us Kali-yuga people… and there it is! We must be insane to do what we do "just" to survive. So hell seems long, but is short? Can anyone give a time frame? And we experience all the varieties of hell - according to our sins - before rebirth? So we're cut slack in Kali-yuga in terms of mental offenses, but not physical ones?

Go Your Own Way Loving you Isn’t the right thing to do How can I ever change things That I feel If I could Maybe I’d give you my world How can i When you won’t take it from me You can go your own way Go your own way You an call it Another lonely day You can go your own way Go your own way Tell me why Everything turned around Packing up Shacking up is all you wanna do If I could Baby I’d give you my world Open up Everything’s waiting for you You can go your own way Go your own way You an call it Another lonely day You can go your own way Go your own way - Fleetwood Mac ............................. … Just dont get sick or excercise those "consitutional" rights… because the powers that be don't really believe all that s_it they tell/sell you.

That says even more than I was thinking.

Big fish, little fish. How big are you? Are you big enough to ignore those demanding your time in non-devotional areas? More than one master? Who comes first? Thought you'd be master by now? Is a devotee that does not recognize or serve Krsna's important interests as big as he thinks? Does he have the brain to serve? A little ISKCON commentary and history concering cheating by leaders: So much depends on attentive chanting. How do you pretend to be liberated when you're not and chant sincerely? (Rhetorical question). And how do you pretend to serve your country and run all over the citizens rights? On authority? How do we get to where we are? Is it where you wanna be? (Rhetorical questions). Of coarse you wouldn't choose what you have. You deserve better. Hey! Don't bother deciding. That's what our government and leaders are for. Are you compromising yourself for the benefit of a bigger hypocrite than you? (rhetorical question). "I bet I can get that commemorative gold watch for a lifetime of "the highest service" standards. Do they still do that… They take your retirement and still give you a gold watch? Landslide This is for you daddy… I took my love,and I took it down I Climbed a mountain and I turned around And I saw my reflection in the snow covered hills 'Till the landslide brought me down Oh, mirror in the sky What is love Can the child within my heart rise above Can I sail thru the changing ocean tides Can I handle the seasons of my life ooh ooh i dont know ooh ooh ooh ooh Well, I've been afraid of changing 'Cause I've built my life around you But time makes you bolder Children get older I'm getting older too S0o0o0 (Gutiar solo) I've been afraid of changing 'Cause I built my life around you But time makes you bolder Children get older I'm getting older too I'm getting older too Oh, take this love, take it down Oh, If you Climb a mountain and turn around If you see my reflection in the snow covered hills Well the landslide will bring it down down And If you see my reflection in the snow covered hills Well maybe the landslide will bring it down well well the landslide will bring it down Crystal Do you always trust your first initial feeling Special knowledge holds true, bear believing I turned around and the water was closing all around like a glove Like the love that finally found me. Then I knew in the crystaline knowledge of you Drove me through the mountains Through the crystal like and clear water fountain Drove me like a magnet To the sea To the sea How the faces of love have changed turning the pages And I have changed, oh, but you, you remain ageless I turned around and the water was closing all around like a glove Like the love that finally found me. Then I knew in the crystaline knowledge of you Drove me though the mountains Through the crystal like and clear water fountain Drove me like a magnet To the sea To the sea Everywhere Can you hear me calling Out your name You know that I'm falling And I don't know what to say I'll speak a little louder I'll even shout You know that I'm pround And I can't get the words out Oh I... I want to be with you everywhere Oh I... I want to be with you everywhere (Wanna be with you everywhere) Something's happening Happening to me My friends say I'm acting peculiarly C'mon baby We better make a start You better make it soon Before you break my heart Oh I... I want to be with you everywhere Oh I... I want to be with you everywhere (Wanna be with you everywhere) Can you hear me calling Out your name You know that I'm falling And I don't know what to say Come along baby We better make a start You better make it soon Before you break my heart Oh I... I want to be with you everywhere Oh I... I want to be with you everywhere Oh I... I want to be with you everywhere Oh I... I want to be with you everywhere (Wanna be with you everywhere) That's All for Everyone That's all for everyone That's all for me Last call for everyone Must be just exactly what I need I call for everyone I cry for more That's all for everyone Must be just exactly what I need That's all I need somewhere to go That's all Must be what I need That's all I need someone to know Last call Exactly what I need I can't stay I can't deceive That's all for everyone Must be just exactly what I need So that's all for everyone That's all for me Last call for everyone Must be just exactly what I need That's all I need somewhere to go That's all Must be what I need That's all I need someone to know Last call Exactly what I need That's all for everyone That's all, that's all, that's all, that's all Tell Me Lies If I could turn the page In time then I'd rearrange Just a day or two Close my, close my, close my eyes But I couldn't find a way So I'll settle for one day To believe in you Tell me, tell me , tell me lies Tell me lies Tell me sweet little lies (Tell me lies, tell me, tell me lies) Oh, no, no you can't disguise (You can't disguise, no you can't disguise) Tell me lies Tell me sweet little lies ALthough I'm not making plans I hope that you understand There's a reason why Close your, close your, close your eyes No more broken kearts We're better off apart Let's give it a try Tell me, tell me, tell me lies Tell me lies Tell me sweet little lies (Tell me lies, tell me, tell me lies) Oh, no, no you can't disguise (You can't disguise, no you can't disguise) Tell me lies Tell me sweet little lies If I could turn the page In time then I'd rearrange Just a day or two Close my, close my, close my eyes But I couldn't find a way So I'll settle for one day To believe in you Tell me, tell me, tell me lies Tell me lies Tell me sweet little lies (Tell me lies, tell me, tell me lies) Oh, no, no you can't disguise (You can't disguise, no you can't diguise) Tell me lies Tell me sweet little lies (Tell me lies, tell me, tell me lies) Oh, no, no you can't disguise (You can't disguise, no you can't disguise) Tell me lies Tell me sweet little lies (Tell me, tell me lies) – Fleetwood Mac

I didn't read your post. I've read almost nothing of you lately. I'm just not reading you anymore. I know what you are and I'm not buying what you sell. (I also think you're an over-rated salesman). There's no peace between us because you won't leave me alone. And you complain I'm the bad guy… Kinda' like the "American" peace and the Third World Order. If I don't see more participation from devotees here, I'm gonna just not bother checking in. Then you can talk to yourself in all your mutations. (You're already not talking to me because I ain't buy'in). I can justify my feelings. I can recall events quite empirically. I'm just not interested in waht you think - or what anyone else really thinks. No one wants to help Krsna? H_ll with 'em. But future revenge is another matter. Perhaps later, CHUmP. But probably not; you're not worth my time. I'm already feeling that. But IF I have A WHOLE LOTTA cash to spare, it might be fun to hunt you. /images/graemlins/smile.gif But I won't be so incompetent. Well, nevermind. I'm sure I'll never get that bored. There's lot's to do with bigger fish… huh? I'll predict this with certainty: I get rich and the face of this world will change. Any rich men out there willing to start me off? Should be good for a laugh! You know… watch the low class handle money (the new religion). Satisfaction (or entertainment value) guaranteed… not to mention double moeny back… CALL IT a loan… CALL IT investigation. CALL IT whatever you want. Fighting is done between equal partners. Even the odds… still in your favor of coarse… and let's tango! (It's all fun Govindaram. I don't take this post serious… except for not liking you).

Prabhupada said "television teaches you to cheat". Didn't he? Anyone know where it is?

You are slow. My apology was sarcastic. I didn't mean it. I was playing. I never asked for your help. Don't ever want it. You just jumped in as I predicted you would be doing. You've had many opportunities to help, but it never manifest. I only want help from sincere people. There just aren't any. (Here it comes). That doesn't mean I will accept anything less. Bheesma to Yudisthira… Bheeshma: "This world is ever threatened by death. The nights which come and go do but lessen the span of one's life. Death waits for no man. It is nearing every creature every moment. Its progress .is imperceptible but it is ever steady. With the passing of each day, man's life is shortened. Death comes before man's desires have been fulfilled. When he is busy plucking the flowers, death snatches a man away like a beast of prey carrying away a ram. What you have planned to do tomorrow must be done today. What you have planned to do in the afternoon must be done in the forenoon. Death is ruthless. It will never wait and see if all your acts have been carried out. Man should hurry and practise virtue in the prime of life. Life is so uncertain, and only death is certain. It may come now or it may come years later. The readiness is important. Virtue will grant you fame in this world and happiness in the next." "Man is plagued with a thousand desires in this world. He becomes attached to many things and many people. His work, his lands, his. children, his home: all these have woven a web of attachment from which he is torn away by death. Nothing can resist the force of this web of attachment except truth. Knowledge of the true values of things makes a man realise the transitoriness of the things of the world, and to such a man death has no terrors. Truth is immortality. In the same body can be found the germs of death as well as immortality. It is all in your hands whether you nurture the one or the other. Earthly bondages are so easily formed. It is easy for anyone to nurture the plant of attachment which is but another name for death."

I notice how you never answer pivotal questions. But you seduce others to do so. But now I'm bored. I've had enough of you. You'll not waste more of my time. It has never been about me. It is what is best for Krsna… you smiling fool!

Krsna helps more than you know. But I think you sound like a sleezy politician. Must be a coincidence. You're just a self-important fool! I will never ask for your help. In fact, I didn't this time. But I showed how insincere you are. (People must really be on a low level to think there is much benefit in these word games). .................... Ok, this is no longer serious. I've got to ask: How could I possibly need your help someday… as you claim? I personally find you nothing but trouble. /images/graemlins/smile.gif And a waste of time. I also immediately apologized for my seeming error. I have never gotten apologies from you in the past… hypocrite. These little rants are glimpses of the end. People are killing the world with their selfishness. "I will help if I can even for 10 mins, tell me?"

You offered to help. But you didn't help. You just created trouble as usual. Why didn't you help when I asked? And why don't you give the answer asked for? You won't answer that. You just make fun of me for trying. And what are you doing? Pretending to help? You spend countless hours trolling this board - dropping confusion and doubt - while you don't care. Govindaram, you are the last person I would want help from. Why would I want help from you and why would you even respond long after my original question had passed? YOU had all the opportunity in the world to answer before. I'm gonna put my site back up and explain it to YOU again… as if I'm begging? Boy, are you a dreamer. I can certainly do this without you… or the rest of you… if I have to. Save your excuses for Krsna… or Yamaraja. I'm sure you will find more sympathy there.

Alright. I read your first line and got ticked off. My apologies. My response doesn't entirely fit. But my request and solicitation have already been stated. I think it clear. And the site is gone now anyway… long before I posted this thread. Gimme' a break! Just games? Why didn't you respond to my original windows post that had the concern in question? Your response throws it back on me when I complained I'm not getting the help I need on a huge project. It's enough for several people. I stated what I needed in terms of advice, gave you everything you need to decide… and you ask me what can I do… after the site is down? Why didn't you just answer the question instead of charading as a benefactor? Your actions are not consistent with your speech! (I'm sure you'd thought that would go unnoticed… you being so clever and all).

I'm such a fool as you suggest. I'm thinking my Krsna is your Krsna too. I'm thinking the world could blow up at any moment… or worse still… people will just accept the life of interfacing with the machines of the rich. Why is knowledge so precious. Why is faith? Do you believe in windows of opportunity or is this just more advice from a bigger hypocrite than me? I mean what are you doing? Never mind. I don't want to know. I'm done with this cheap talk. And you act like the guru of my life? Gimme' a break. I don't even accept you as sincere/devotional. (But your experience shows that I am programmable). People reject good advice all the time… most of the time. Is good advice favorable to Krsna or not? I see more light than you… FOOL! You're gonna be cool and give me 10 minutes? I imagine you'll be SO COOL all your life.

When I began Windows, I knew I'd get heat from the government… knowing what I know about them. There are other devotees who may now see the artificial extension of ignorant senses bearing down on them. But what I never anticipated… and I never would have suspected anyway… was that DEVOTEES would desist from helping Krsna being known instantaneously worldwide… they are too busy adjusting their own lives to do this service. It is later than it seems. /images/graemlins/frown.gif (You people are dreaming. But it's really ignorant slumber).

… someone who will actually spend fabulous wealth for the propagation of KC using modern marketing techniques. Should be easy since Prabhupada is the best product. The facilities certainly seem to be now in the hands of the incompetent. As in most anything, a little sincerity goes a long way. What is more important than what you know is how you use the knowledge. But even this simple understanding is lost on big hypocrites.