leyh

Dear Forum Members: The purport to Srimad Bhagvatam 3.31.1 says:"In order to give a particular type of human form to a person who has already suffered hellish life, the soul is transferred to the semen of a man who is just suitable to become his father." So does it mean that the Supreme Lord selectively transfers the spirit soul to the semen of a person who is ready to be a father and not otherwise? Would the Lord transfer the soul to a the semen of a celibate sannyasa or priest who had no intention of being a father? Generally,out of millions of semen,only one survives to develop into a foetus,what about the rest? Could it be that only that the one "successful" semen particle carries a soul in it? So basically,I am enquiring whether there is any information,scriptural or otherwise,whether all semen particles contain souls or whether only some semen particles do.I will be grateful if anyone could enlighten me on this matter. Yours in the spirit of enquiry leyh [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 07-08-2001).]

I don't get it.How can whether Krishna and the gopis got married be a controversy?Is it really that important? I'm sure Krishna,the gopis and all the other friends and associates of Krishna are having a jolly good time now in the forests of Vraja.Marriage?Controversy?I think these concepts are probably the last things on their minds now as they run and frolick in the many forests of Vraja! [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 07-08-2001).]

Dear Janus: Thank you very much for your informative post.Personally,I don't think that the Bible is the absolute inerrant and infallible word of God as it seems to contain many contradictions and errors.I was just wondering when and where Srila Prabhupada said that the Bible wasn't transcendental literature. Yours Very Sincerely leyh

Dear Janus: When/Where did Srila Prabhupada say/write that the Bible is not transcendental literature? I would like to draw your attention to the following exchange between Srila Prabhupada and two of his disciples. Madhudvisa: Is there any way for a Christian to, without the help of a Spiritual Master, to reach the spiritual sky through believing in the words of Jesus Christ and trying to follow his teachings? Srila Prabhupada: I don't follow. Tamala Krishna Goswami: Can a Christian in this age, without a Spiritual Master, but by reading the Bible, and following Jesus's words, reach the ... Srila Prabhupada: When you read the Bible, you follow the Spiritual Master. How can you say without. As soon as you read the Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. That means that you are following the Spiritual Master. So where is the opportunity of being without Spiritual Master. Madhudvisa: I was referring to a living Spiritual Master. Srila Prabhupada: Spiritual Master is not question of ... Spiritual Master is eternal...so your question is 'without Spiritual Master'. Without Spiritual Master you cannot be at any stage of your life. You may accept this Spiritual master or that Spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept. As you say that "by reading Bible", when you read Bible that means you are following the Spiritual Master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ. (Morning Walk, Seattle, 2/10/68) Any comments and information will be greatly appreciated. Yours Very Sincerely leyh

Dear Peter: Thank you very much for your encouragment...I appreciate it very much.But I'm not sure about the "gentle and sincere" part.I can be so demonic at times.It is my good fortune to associate with all of you here.May Krishna bless all of you for compassion! Yours Very Gratefully leyh

Dear aksh: Maybe the following excerpt from "The Science of Self Realization" by His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (1896-1977),Founder-Spiritual Master of the International Society of Krishna Consciousness (popularly known as the Hare Krishna Movement) can clarify your doubts.The excerpt is part of a transcript of a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Professor Grigoriy Kotovsky,(then)head of the India Department at the U.S.S.R. Academy of Sciences and chairman of the Indian studies department at the University of Moscow.The conversation took place in 1971 in the U.S.S.R Prof. Kotovsky: But by creating brahmanas from different social classes of society, you deny the old prescription of the Hindu scriptures. Srila Prabhupada: No, I establish it. Prof. Kotovsky: According to all scriptures--the Puranas, etc.--every member of one of these four classes of varnas has to be born within it. Srila Prabhupada: No, no, no, no. Prof. Kotovsky: That is the foundation of all the varnas... Srila Prabhupada: No, no. I am sorry. Prof. Kotovsky: The foundation of all the varnas... Srila Prabhupada: You have spoken incorrectly. With great respect I beg to submit that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gita (4.13) it is stated, catur-varnyam maya-srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. "These four orders of brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras were created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. Prof. Kotovsky: I agree with you that this is the addition of later brahmanas who tried to perpetuate these qualities. Srila Prabhupada: That has killed the Indian culture. Otherwise there would have been no necessity of the division of part of India into Pakistan. Not only that, but from the historical point of view this whole planet was Bharata-varsa, and it was controlled by one flag up to the time of Maharaja Pariksit. Then it gradually separated. This is history. Lately they have separated Pakistan. So Bharata-varsa is now crippled into a small piece of land. Otherwise, according to Vedic scripture, this whole planet is called Bharata-varsa. Formerly it was named Ilavrta-varsa. But since Emperor Bharata ruled this planet, it is called Bharata-varsa. So this culture, Krsna consciousness, was always existent. Consider any religion--Christian, Muhammadan, Jewish. They are at most two to three thousand years old. But you cannot trace out the beginning of this Vedic scripture. It is therefore called sanatana, eternal. This culture is for this whole human society. It is not a religious faith. Religious faith you can change, but real dharma you cannot change. Try to understand Krsna. In the Bhagavad-gita (18.66) He says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: "Give up all other forms of religion and just surrender to Me." That is real knowledge--to surrender to the Supreme. You or I--anyone--is surrendered to someone. That is a fact. Our life is by surrender, is it not? Do you disagree with this point? Prof. Kotovsky: To some extent you surrender. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, to the full extent. Prof. Kotovsky: You have to surrender to the society, for instance. To the whole people. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, to the whole people, or to the state or to the king or the government or whatever you say. This surrender must be there.("Spiritual Communism") So you can see that according to the Bhagavad Gita, the four orders of brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras were originally created by Krishna according to quality (guna) and work (karma), not by mere station of birth. I think it would not be inaccurate to say that the caste system, as in the four orders of brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras exist in virtually all societies. In every society, there is an elite group of intellectual people like professors, politicians and the clergy. These people would constitute the brahmana order. Then there would be the military men responsible for defending the country. These people would constitute the order of the ksatriyas. Then there would be the commercial traders in charge of the economic welfare of the country ---the vaisyas.Then there are the workers who do the manual labour necessary to maintain the assets of the society like various infrastructure. The Brahmana can be compared to the brain of the society, the Kshatriya its arms, the Vaisyas its stomach and the Sudra its feet. It is quite evident that these four orders are present in virtually all societies. In the past, the caste system was abused. As Swami Sivananda described the process of this abuse as follows: The upper classes gradually neglected their duties. The test of ability and character slowly disappeared. Birth became the chief consideration in determining caste. All the castes fell from their ideals and forgot all about their duties. The Brahmins became selfish and claimed superiority over others by mere birth, without possessing the necessary qualities. The Kshatriyas lost their chivalry and spirit of sacrifice. The Vaishyas became avaricious and greedy. They did not earn their wealth by honest means. They did not look after the economic welfare of the people. They did not do charity. They also lose the spirit of sacrifice. The Sudras gave up service. They became officers. They wished that others should serve them. The greed and pride of man created discord and disharmony.E(Kingly Science Kingly Secret by Swami Sivananda, Chapter 6: The Caste System) As I understand it, the caste system, i.e. the four orders of intellectuals, warriors, merchants and labourers are a very natural division of the classes of people found in virtually every society. But due to abuse, discord and disharmony crept into the caste system of India. Maybe with education, more and more people will eventually understand the real meaning of the caste system and the abuses, discord and harmony will be avoided. Yours Very Sincerely leyh

Dear JRdd: I agree very much with your points about humility.I think the greatest danger in the practice of any spiritual tradition is spiritual pride.Pride can be so subtle.Maybe when we find ourselves becoming attracted to the idea of being lower than the straw in the street,we might very well start becoming proud of our "humility"! Maybe it would help if we see that everything is the Lord's mercy.It is through God's mercy that we can even have the chance of knowing about spiritual life.We are nowhere without Divine Mercy and Grace. Here is a quote that I copied from a library book today which I would like to share with you and all the other Forum Members: "If you ask me what are the ways of God,I would tell you that the first is humility,the second is humility, and the third is still humility.Not that there are no other precepts to give,but if humility does not precede all that we do,our efforts are fruitless."(St Augustine) Yours Very Sincerely leyh

May there be peace on earth,peace in the atmosphere and in the heavens.Peaceful be the waters,the herbs and plants.May the Divine bring us peace.May the holy prayers and invocations of peace-liturgies generate ultimate Peace and Happiness everywhere.With these meditations which resolve and dissolve harm,violence,and conflicts,we render peaceful whatever on earth is terrible,sinful,cruel,and violent.Let the earth become fully auspicious,let everything be beneficial to us.(Atharva Veda XIX-9)

Dear talasiga: The entire 1946 edition of Autobiography of a Yogi is online and can be found at http://www.ananda.org/ I hope you will find it to be of convenience and interest. Regarding stories about those who hide their spiritual experience and understanding, I recommend you to read Chapter 12 of The Autobiography of a Yogi.It is entitled "Years in my MAster's hermitage, and it contains many anecdotes about Paramahansa Yogananda's spiritual amster Sri Yukteswar.Of Sri Yuktewsar, Paramahansa Yogananda wrote: Because of my guru's unspectacular guise, only a few of his contemporaries recognized him as a superman. The popular adage: "He is a fool that cannot conceal his wisdom," could never be applied to Sri Yukteswar. Though born a mortal like all others, Master had achieved identity with the Ruler of time and space. In his life I perceived a godlike unity. He had not found any insuperable obstacle to mergence of human with Divine. No such barrier exists, I came to understand, save in man's spiritual unadventurousness.(Autiobiography of a Yogi,Chapter 12: Years in my Master's Hermitage)

Dear Talasiga: I've been away from home for the past few days and I apologize for not replying sooner. I myself am trying to apply myself to lessons from the lives of saintly personalities and I still have a long way to go,so let us wish each other and all others on the spiritual path well.Yours Very Sincerely

Dear Forum Members: The following fascinating description of a vision of Jesus Christ and Sri Krishna is found in Whispers from Eternity by Paramahansa Yogananda: A Vision of Christ and Krishna I beheld a great blue valley encircled by mountains that shimmered jewel-like. Around opalescent peaks vagrant mists sparkled. A river of silence flowed by, diamond bright. And there I saw, coming out of the depths of the mountains, Jesus and Krishna walking hand in hand --- the Christ who prayed by the river Jordan and the Christ-na who played a flute by the river Yamuna. They baptized me in the radiant waters; my soul melted in fathomless depths. Everything began to emit astral flames. My body and the forms of Christ and Krishna, the iridescent hills, the glowing stream, and the far empyrean became dancing lights, while atoms of fire flew. Finally nothing remained but mellow luminosity, in which all creation trembled. O Spirit! In my heart I bowed again and again to Thee --- Eternal Light in whom all forms commingle.

Dear Maitreya and animesh: Thank you very much for the advice.Yours Very Sincerely.

Dear Forum Members: Sorry about the constant edits.I hand-typed everything and I keep spotting typing errors after submission.I guess I'm just too impatient.Next time,I shall employ full use of the spell-check.Yours Very Sincerely

Dear Forum Members: I would like to share an excerpt from Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda: A celebrated scholar received a similar jolt.It came during his first visit to the ashram.The rafters resounded as the guest recited passages from the Mahabharata,Upanishads,and bhasyas (commentaries)of Shankara. "I am waiting to hear you."Sri Yukteswar's tone was inquiring,as though silence had reigned.The pundit was puzzled. "Quotations there have been in superabundance." Master's words convulsed me with mirth,as I squatted in my corner ar a respectful distance from the visitor."But what original commentary can you supply,from the uniqueness of your particular life? In what ways have these timeless truths renovated your nature? Are you content to be a hollow victrola,mechanically repeating the words of other men?" "I give up!"The scholar's chagrin was comical."I have no inner realization." For the first time,perhaps,he understood that discerning placement of a comma does not atone for a spiritual coma. "These bloodless pedants smelly unduly of the lamp,"my guru remarked after the departure of the chastened one."They consider philosophy to be a gentle intellectual setting-up exercise.Their elevated thoughts are carefully unrelated either to the crudity of outward action or to any scourging inner discipline!" Master stressed on other occasions the futility of mere book learning. "Do not confuse understanding with a larger vocabulary," he remarked." Sacred writings are beneficial in simulating desire for inward realization,if one stanza at a time is slowly assimilated.Otherwise,continual intellectual study may result in vanity,false satisfaction,and undigested knowledge." Sri Yukteswar related one of his own experiences in scriptural edification.The scene was a forest hermitage in eastern Bengal,where he observed the procedure of a reowned teacher,Dabru Ballav.His method,at once simple and difficult,was common in ancient India. Dabru Ballav had gathered his disciples around him in the sylvan solitudes.The holy Bhagavad Gita was open before them.Steadfastly they looked at one passage for half an hour,then closed their eyes. Another half hour slipped away.The master gave a brief comment.Motionless,they meditated again for an hour.Finally the guru spoke. "Do you now understand the stanza?" "Yes,sir." One in the group ventured this assertion. "No,not fully.Seek the spiritual vitality that has given these words the power to rejuvenate India century after century." Another hour passed in silence.The master dismissed the students,a nd turned to Sri Yukteswar. "Do you know the Bhagavad Gita?" "No sir,not really;though my eyes and mind have run through its pages many times." "Hundreds have replied to me differently!" The great sage smiled at Master in blessing."If one busies himself with an outer display of scriptural wealth,what time is left for silent inward diving after the priceless pearls?" Sri Yukteswar directed the study of his own disciples by the same intensive method of one-pointedness."Wisdom is not assimilated with the eyes,but with the atoms," he said."When your conviction of truth is not merely in your brain but in your being,you may diffidently vouch for its meaning." he discouraged any tendency a student might have to consider book knowledge a necessary step to spiritual realization. "The rishis wrote in one sentence profundities that commentating scholars busy themselves over for generations," he said."Endless literary controversy s for sluggard minds.What more quickly liberating thought than 'God is' ---nay, 'God'?" (Autobiography of a Yogi --- Chapter 12:Years in My Master's Hermitage) [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-23-2001).] [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-23-2001).] [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-23-2001).] [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-23-2001).]

Dear Shvu: I didn't mean to convey the idea that bhakti is not a path to liberation.What I meant was that although bhakti does lead to liberation,it is also more than just about liberation.It is about establishing a loving relationship with God,so in that respect it is above liberation.In my previous post,I quoted a verse from the Srimad Bhagavatam (3.29.13)which confirms that pure devotees do not accept liberation even if it is offered by God.I would like to bring this verse to your attention again: A pure devotee does not accept any kind of liberation --- salokya, sarsti, samipya, sarupya, or ekatva --- even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.29.13) (Note: Salokya-mukthi means the mode of liberation where one lives on the same planet as God. Sarsti-mukthi is the mode of liberation where one has the opulence of God. Samipya-mukthi is the mode of liberation where one always remains with God as one of his associates.Sarupya-mukthi is the mode of liberation where one attains the same bodily features of God and ekatvam-mukthi is the mode of liberation where one becomes one with God.) It seems that this verse implies that pure bhakti is above the desire for liberation.In that way,bhakti is above liberation.Yours Very Sincerely

Dear talasiga: Thank you very much for your kind words and encouragement.Yours Very Sincerely

Dear Talasiga: I wasn't really trying to antagonize anyone.I hope my attempts to write about bhakti will not offend anyone.Yours Very Sincerely

Dear Shvu: I think that maybe the spirit of true bhakti can be illustrated with the following analogy. A very rich man has a daughter. The daughter sincerely loves her father not because of his wealth, but because out of genuine affection. The father on the other hand, also loves his daughter very much and continually showers gifts on her as a sign of his love. Thus, these gifts are a result of the reciprocation of the father¡¦s love for his daughter, but the loving relationship between father and daughter goes beyond the giving of mere presents. The daughter, in the spirit of true love, does not love her father¡¦s presents, but she loves him for the person he is. So similarly, the gift of Liberation is the natural result of devotion. But devotion goes beyond the bestowing (from God) and the attainment (by the devote) of liberation. The loving relationship between God and devotee is based on the Lord¡¦s causeless mercy and also inestimable subtlety. It should not be compared to a business transaction, where one practices bhakthi with the aim of attaining some benefit from God. The pure devotee of God does not desire even liberation. This is confirmed by the Srimad Bhagavatam: A pure devotee does not accept any kind of liberation --- salokya, sarsti, samipya, sarupya, or ekatva --- even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.29.13) (Note: Salokya-mukthi means the mode of liberation where one lives on the same planet as God. Sarsti-mukthi is the mode of liberation where one has the opulence of God. Samipya-mukthi is the mode of liberation where one always remains with God as one of his associates.Sarupya-mukthi is the mode of liberation where one attains the same bodily features of God and ekatvam-mukthi is the mode of liberation where one becomes one with God.) You write: ¡§This was 500 years back. Since then are you aware of him having been born again and again? Surely such births would have been noticed, for his devotional fervor would have been more intense than before. And if he was not born again, his prayer did not work. If it did not work for such a great devotee, how do you expect such prayers to work for common people?" Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's Siksastaka was an illustration of the true spirit of bhakthi.Maybe Chaitanya Mahaprabhu composed the Siksastaka to show devotees how pure bhakthi does not have to include any thought for liberation. Just like the "Lord's Prayer", which is attributed to Jesus is also an example of how prayer should be delivered.Actually,if you're wondering why the prayer(specifically Text 4) did not "work" for such a great devotee like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu,it must be said that bhakthi is like the loving exchange between two lovers. The man, in the spirit of selflessness, does not want any benefit from his lover. For example, he does not expect her to give him anything for his birthday. ¡§I do not want any presents from you. I just want the pleasure of your company.¡¨ But his lover on the other hand, insists on giving him a birthday present as an expression of her love for him. ¡§I want to buy you a gift to make you happy on your birthday.¡¨ This is the tug-of-war that can be found in loving exchanges between two lovers. Similarly, the devotee does not crave for liberation from God, and only desires that God is happy. But God also wants to bestow liberation on the devotee because God does not want the devotee to suffer in the material world.As Srila Prabhupada writes in the Science of Self Realization: "A pure devotee does not even desire to go to the supreme abode of Krsna. Of course, he goes, but he has no desire. He simply wants to engage himself fully in Krsna's service." (The Highest Love)Such is the sublime position of bhakti yoga. So when Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says:¡¨ I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor do I desire beautiful women, nor do I want any number of followers. I only want Your causeless devotional service birth after birth." I don't think that He was expressing his sentiment that he simply did not desire anything from Krishna. not even liberation and this sentiment is a part pf the tug-of-war of love between God and devotee. So actually, the important point is not that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu¡¦s prayer was not answered. The important point is that it reflects to us the intensity of a pure devotee. You write that: ¡§Similarly the follower of Chaitanya engages in Bhakti for one of the following reasons, 1. Because Chaitanya taught so. 2. It gives him a kick to engage in Bhakti. So the follower of Chaitanya is being selfish too, and is also proved by the following,¡¨ It seems to me that this is a rather cynical (and some might even say offensive) way of presenting the relationship of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his followers. Love of God is dormant within all spirit souls and out of his mercy, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu generously aroused it in the souls of many people that he had encountered. When the devotee engages in Bhakti, it is not because it gives him/her a kick. The devotee is only manifesting what lies dormant in him/her. The propensity for love of God has been aroused by a Vaishnava. The disciple¡¦s gratitude towards the Vaishnava is expressed in a song by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura entitled Ohe! Vaisnava Thakura: ¡§Krishna is yours. You¡¦re able to give Him to me, for such is your power. I am indeed wretched and simply run after you, crying ¡§Krishna! Krishna!¡¨ Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, through his life and teachings, has given Krishna to the whole world, saving many from material contamination by making them run after God with love and devotion. I sincerely request you not to show disrespect to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his movement even if you do not believe in it. You write: ¡§Note that there is still a want. (regarding the devotee¡¦s wanting to engage in Krishna¡¦s service) It is not motiveless as some may think. In Moksha however, there are no more wants, making it more superior. In fact, that is why it is the ultimate goal and is known as the Parama-purushartha.¡¨ But the wanting of the devotee cannot be equated with materialistic self-centered desires. The interest of the devotee is entirely one with Krishna¡¦s. Regarding your statement that: ¡§In Moksha however, there are no more wants,¡¨ I would like to point out that The Bhagavad Gita says: A person who has given up all desires for sense gratification, who lives free from desires, who has given up all sense of proprietorship and is devoid of false ego --- he alone can attain real peace.¡¨ (Bhagavad Gita 2.71) Note that Krishna is talking about ¡§desires for sense gratification.¡¨ As Srila Prabhupada writes in his purport for that verse: ¡§The living entity cannot be desireless or senseless, but he does have to change the quality of the desires. A materially desireless person certainly knows that everything belongs to Krsna (isavasyam idam sarvam), and therefore he does not falsely claim proprietorship over anything.¡¨ Souls, like the gopis, who have changed the quality of their desires from that of material sense gratification to transcendental love of God, are considered as liberated souls. This is confirmed too in the Bhagavad Gita: But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their minds on Me, O son of Prtha --- for them I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death.¡¨ (Bhagavad Gita 12.6-7) Here, Krishna says that he gives liberation to those who are devoted to him, and for devotion to take place, there has to be desire --- but for Krishna. That is transcendental desire. So it is not that there is no desire in liberation, but rather the desire is now raised to a higher platform. This is further confirmed by the Srimad Bhagavatam: ¡§ Although those who are atmarama, self satisfied, are liberated from all material contamination, they are still attracted by the pastimes of the Supreme Lord, and thus they engage themselves in His transcendental service.¡¨ (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.2.40) You write: ¡§Sorry. There are several devotees who earnestly pray to Krishna for relief from disease, poverty, etc. No response from Krishna, though.¡¨ This statement is incorrect because a true devotee of Krishna would not pray to Krishna for relief from disease, poverty, etc. This is because a devotee would see everything as Krishna¡¦s mercy. As Srila Prabhupada writes in Teachings of Queen Kunti: A devotee, however, is never disturbed by dangers, reverses, or calamities. Rather, he welcomes them. Because he is a surrendered soul, he knows that both dangers and festivals are but different demonstrations of Krsna, who is absolute. In the sastra, the Vedic literature, it is said that religion and irreligion, which are complete opposites, are merely the front portion and the back portion of God. But is there any difference between God's front and God's back? God is absolute, and therefore a devotee, either in opulence or in danger, is undisturbed, knowing that both of these are Krsna. When a devotee is in danger, he thinks, "Now Krsna has appeared before me as danger." In His form of Nrsimhadeva, the Lord was dangerous to the demon Hiranyakasipu, but the same Nrsimhadeva was the supreme friend to the devoted Prahlada Maharaja. God is never dangerous to the devotee, and the devotee is never afraid of dangers, because he is confident that the danger is but another feature of God. "Why should I be afraid?" the devotee thinks. "I am surrendered to Him." (Teachings of Queen Kunti, Chapter Eight) The mentality of a devotee is reflected in Queen Kunti¡¦s prayer: ¡§I wish that all those calamities would happen again and again so that we could see You again and again, for seeing You means that we will no longer see repeated births and deaths.¡¨ (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.8-24-25) You write: ¡§But according to you, none of these people should have been liberated because their Bhakti was not pure. How do you explain that?¡¨ I am sorry if I have caused any misunderstanding, but I did not intend to imply that people whose bhakthi is impure were not liberated. As Vedic literature records, even demons like Hiranyakasipu were liberated. Nor do I mean to say that bhakti is the only path to liberation.What I intended to convey is the idea that although bhakti does lead to liberation, but it is also more than just about being liberated. Pure bhakti is about love of God without any thought for obtaining any benefit from God like salvation or liberation. This teaching is certainly not unique to Gaudiya Vaishnavas. The Muslim mystic Rabi`a al `Adawiyya prayed: ¡§O God, if I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, And if I worship You in hope of Paradise, Exclude me from Paradise. But if I worship You for Your Own sake, Grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty." Swami Sivananda, Founder of the Divine Life Society also wrote: ¡§The highest kind of Bhaktha is one who wants nothing from God. He merely wants God. He says: ¡§O Lord! I want Thee. Nothing else do I want. What is there which I have to get after getting Thee, the source and root of everything?¡¨ (Kingly Science, Kingly Secret, Chapter 24). Yours Very Sincerely [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-18-2001).] [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-18-2001).] [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-18-2001).]

Dear Shvu: You write:"The BG too clearly shows Bhakti as a means to attain liberation only. Nowhere does it say that there is something "above" Moksha and that is what "true" Bhakti is,as falsely concocted by some people. These so-called gurus came up with a pack of lies, and unfortunately a lot of people who lacked schooling in the basics of Hinduism have fallen prey for their sweet-talk. The only good point is that it makes no difference." If I understand you correctly, yous eem to be saying that bhakthi is merely a path to liberation and just that --- a path. It seems to me that this is simply a misrepresentation of bhakthi. Pure bhakthi is the love of God without hankering for any salvation or heaven of God.In pure bhakthi,as I understand it, the devotee does not desire liberation. He or she only wants to engage in service of the Lord. This spirit is motiveless bhakthi for God is illustrated by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who writes in his Siksastaka:"O almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor do I desire beautiful women, nor do I want any number of followers. I only want Your causeless devotional service birth after birth."(Siksastaka Text 4)The words "birth after birth" implies that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu does not desire liberation, but instead is contented with serving the Lord in the material world. True bhakthi is indeed above the desire for liberation.If the devotee engages in the process of bhakthi to secure liberation, then it is not true bhakthi, just as if a person serves his father only with the intent of securing his father's wealth,it only means that the person does not truly love his father.Similraly, if a person serves God out of a desire for liberation, then that person can not be said to truly love God.In The Science Of Self Realization, Srila Prabhupada writes about pure devotion to God: "Pure devotees, however, do not accept these various forms of liberation. They only want to be engaged in Krsna's service. They are not concerned with any kind of liberation. Those who are actually Krsna conscious achieve the association of the Supreme Lord, but they do not desire it; their only ambition is to be engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The highest perfection of devotional service, or Krsna consciousness, is exhibited when a devotee refuses to accept any benediction or profit from the Supreme Lord. Prahlada Maharaja was offered whatever he liked, he had only to ask for it, but he said, "My Lord, I am Your eternal servant. It is my duty to serve You, so how can I accept any benefit from it? Then I would not be Your servant; I would be a merchant." He replied in that way, and that is the sign of a pure person. Krsna is so kind that He fulfills all the desires of a devotee, even if he wants material benedictions. If at the bottom of the devotee's heart there is some desire, He also fulfills that. He is so kind. But the sublime position of bhakti-yoga, or devotional service, is that a pure devotee refuses to accept the various kinds of liberation, even if offered by the Supreme Lord." (The Highest Love) If bhakthi which is above moksha is "falsely concocted by some people" and that "so-called gurus came up with a pack of lies" But motiveless love of God without thought for liberation has been taught by Prahlada Maharaja, Chaitanya MAhaprabhu and Srila Prabhupada. I sincerely hope that your accusations of false concotions and packs of lies do not implicate these, and other saintly personalities who taught pure love of God. [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-17-2001).] [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-18-2001).]

Dear Forum Members: In uvaca 98, Srutakirti dasa says, regarding the Srila Prabhupada v.s Mr Nair episoid:"It is a very long story which will be the subject of a book by Giriraja Maharaja." Has the book been published? Has anyone read it?I am really curious about this battle between Srila Prabhupada and Mr Nair. I think Gauracandra has a point when he writes:"This Mr. Nair was commiting so many offenses that to continue to do so would simply bring on future karmic consequences." Maybe Srila Prabhupada saw Mr Nair's death as a form of mercy killing to prevent him from becoming even more fallen. jndas, could you kindly elaborate on what you meant when you wrote:"Sometimes Krishna protects us from life, sometimes he protects us from death." Are there any examples, from Vedic literatures, of Krishna protecting a person from life? Yours Very Sincerely. [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-16-2001).] [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-16-2001).] [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-16-2001).]

Dear Maitreya: Isn't a devotee supposed to be a friend of all living entities? Maybe it is indeed Krishna's mercy that Mr Nair died and could not commit anymore offences, but frankly, Srila Prabhupada's antagonistic attitude towards him puzzles me.Instead of wishing for Krishna to kill him, couldn't he have prayed to Krishna to soften the heart of Mr Nair? I do not dare to presume to make judgements on Srila Prabhupada or to appear to be able to know what a spiritual master should and should not do.It is just that I cannot understand why Srila Prabhupada seemed so merciless towards Mr Nair.After all, if "A doctor treats all patients, and although a patient may be delirious and insult the doctor, the doctor does not refuse to treat him." (The Path of Perfection)Mr Nair, in insulting Krishna, was definitely a patient ---a conditioned soul.I've read and heard about how Srila Prabhupada the transcendental doctor treated so many conditioned souls, but in the case of Mr Nair, how is it that the doctor, Srila Prabhupada actually wished for him to die?

Dear Forum Members: I really like these words written by Srila Prabhupada in "The Path of Perfection": "In this material world,all conditioned souls are under illusion.A doctor treats all patients,and although a patient may be delirious and insult the doctor,the doctor does not refuse to treat him.He still administers the medicine that is required. As Lord Jesus Christ said,we should hate the sin, not the sinner. That is a very nice statement,because the sinner is under illusion.He is mad.If we hate him, how can we deliver him? Therefore, those who are advanced devotees, who are really servants of God,do not hate anyone.When Lord Jesus Christ was being crucified,he said,"My God, forgive them.They know not what they do."This is the proper attitude of an advanced devotee.He understands that the conditioned souls cannot be hated,because they have become mad, due to their materialistic way of thinking.In this Krsna consciousness movement, there is no question of hating anyone." However, I am extremely puzzled when I read,in Srutakirti dasa's "Srila Prabhupada uvaca"that Srila Prabhupada was very happy when a certain Mr Nair died.According to Srutakirti dasa, Srila Prabhupada said: I prayed that Krsna would kill him. He has caused us so much difficulty. I was praying that Krsna would do something to this demon." Then quoting in Sanskrit a sloka from Srimad Bhagavatam. Then translating it into English, he said, "Prahlada Maharaja said, "'Even the sadhu becomes pleased when a snake or scorpion is killed.' Mr. Nair was such a serpent, therefore it is very good." Apparently, this Mr Nair was(according to Srila Prabhupada's words quoted by Srutakirti dasa) "making a great insult to Krsna, that I could not tolerate. He was insulting Krsna. Krsna was there and he tried to kick Krsna off the land. We have money. We can buy property anywhere but Krsna was there at Juhu. Therefore I was determined to have it for the Lord.." This episoid can be found in Uvaca 98 at http://hometown.aol.com/vrinda/ppduvaca/uvaca.htm The reason for my puzzlement is this:if, as Srila Prabhupada says,there is no room for hatred in Krishna Consciousness,then why was he so antagonistic towards that Mr Nair? I do not dare to make any judgement as I do not know the whole story.But shouldn't Srila Prabhupada have been praying for Mr Nair's conversion instead of his death?According to Srutakirti dasa, Srila Prabhupada said:"He was not at all ill but on his last visit he was limping. Then I knew Krsna would kill him. Actually, Krsna has killed him."This means that Srila Prabhupada and Mr Nair had actually met personally.I'm sure there must be some story behind this...some meaning behind Srila Prabhupada's attitude towards Mr Nair.Can anyone please enlighten me? Yours Very Sincerely [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-16-2001).] [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-16-2001).]

Dear Forum Members: I extracted the following paragraphs from a "Srila Prabhupada Speaks Out"column in an old issue of Back To Godhead.The paragraphs are part of a transcript (published in a series several issues) of a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and some of his disciples at New Vrindaban, West Virginia, on July 24, 1976. Disciple:Sometimes, people say," We're enjoying life.Why are you always bothering us about death?" Srila Prabhupada:Why? Because I love you.And I am intelligent enough to understand that when you die,when you leave your body,you may get a degraded body,and spend your next life as a dog.I have concern for you:"Please, friend. Don't become a dog." Let's say a child is flying a kite from the roof of some building,and a gentleman sees him --- running carelessly this way and that, coming closer and closer to falling over the edge. Naturally the gentleman will say, "Hey! You're going to fall!" That is his duty. Now, the child may scream,"Leave me alone! Why are you bothering me?[Laughter.]Why are you bothering me? "Because I am a human being,"the man will say, "and you are a foolish child.Therefore I am bothering you."

Dear Shvu: If I remember correctly from my personal reading of Buddhist stories,the Buddha did not "ask"for his last meal.It was offered to him by a blacksmith by the name of Chunda. It is a Buddhist tradition that Buddhist monks are not allowed to make specific requests for food. They have to eat whatever is given to them.It seems that whether the Buddha's last dish was pork or mushrooms trodden by a pig is still unclear.

I shall remain your personal guide whether I am physically present or not, just as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja." --Srila Prabhupada, October, 1977, Vrindavana Dear Forum Members: In the above quote, was Srila Prabhupada speaking only in reference to his initiated disciples? Can and will Srila Prabhupada be a person's "personal guide" even if,the person is from a distant era? Here's a scenario: A thousand years later in the year 3001, a person comes across Srila Prabhupada's writings and becomes inspired by Prabhupada's life and words. Is it possible that at that time, Srila Prabhupada will be that person's "personal guide" in the spiritual life?Comments anyone? [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-09-2001).]