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The 6th ("anyone who sees the world in black/white needs to get an education.") and 11th ("it is also worth remember to see others as human beings trying to struggle to get by in this world.") "guest" posts in the thread were authored by me. I wrote them when I still wasn't sure whether I should post in this Forum again. My humble apologies if the Moderator was offended by a registered user posting as a guest

Dear Frodo: Your explanation is inaccurate. In the Gospels, Jesus implicitly and explicitly claimed to be the Christ: When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 16:13-17) He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ." Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him. (Mark 8:29-30) He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said, "The Christ of God." And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day." (Luke 9:20-21) The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." (John 4:25-26)

Dear Friends: For some time I felt burdened by the fact that I was unable to practice much of the complex ritualism and stringent regulations of Krsna Consciousness, the spiritual tradition which I have made many posts on in this Forum. I also had problems with some of aspects of the philosophy. But I have learned tremendously from Krsna Consciousness and many other spiritual traditions that I have encountered. Most importantly, it was the realization of a seemingly irresistible attraction to the person of Jesus Christ. It seems that I have come full cycle in regards with my spiritual path. Beginning with Christianity when I was a child many years ago, I have travelled through various spiritual traditions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Krsna Consciousness, etc. and must finally acknowledge that throught all these time, Jesus had always been a sometimes subtle and sometimes overt presence in my life and my heart had always had an affinity with Him. The person of Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef (aka Jesus the Christ) who walked, wept, laughed, raged, consoled, died and resurrected more then 2,000 years ago. The Yeshua ben Yosef who became seen by his followers as the living word of God transposed onto humanity to be revealed as fully God and fully Man. It is the enigma of this historical/transhistorical person that has never ceased to captivate me, even when I was deeply attached to the study of other spiritual traditions. Ultimately one must follow one's heart. I have not undergone any radical conversion. The essence of my world view remains very much the same --- that God is a Person whose is intimately interested in His creation, and that life is essentially meaningless if centered around materialistic and speculative pursuits.I believe there are truths in religions outside of the Christian faith, and I will try to relate those truths to Christ. The Jesus that I will follow to is not the Jesus of the Fundamentalists. It is the Jesus of the Christian Mystics like Saint Francis of Asisisi, George Fox, Thomas Merton, Thomas a Kempis, the anonymous author of The Way of the Pilgrim, Brother Lawrence and many others like them who tried to know the presence of the living Christ in each and every moment of their lives. This will be my spiritual direction for the indefinite future.

Recent events have prompted me to do some soul searching and re-examination of my current spiritual life and I have discovered a renewed interest in strengthening my connection with Jesus Christ whose teachings and personality has been a main feature in my life for many years. I will take some time off from this forum for a period of prayer and meditation to see how my spiritual direction in life should proceed. My well wishes go out to many of the Forum Members that I have had the pleasure to communicate with like Theist, Stonehearted, Mahaksa, Bill, and many others. May everything be well for all of you.

Dear theist: Based on Srila Prabhupada's explanations,I think we We are taught to treat the Deity much differently then we would a stone because the deity is stone that is utilized by devotees to worship Krsna in an authorized manner. Hence, it is more worshippable then a stone. This is just like a flag. Although it is made of cloth, when shaped into an authorized form to represent a nation, it becomes more respectable then the material it is made from. I'm not sure about your second question. I'm sure many of the Vaishnavas here can enlighten us.

The purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement is not to make Christians into Hindus or Hindus into Christians but to inform everyone that the duty of a human being is to understand his relationship with God. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Krsna Consciousness, The Matchless Gift, Chapter 6) Similarly, if one is serious about understanding God, he should not think, "I am Christian,I am Hindu," or "I am Muslim." (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Krsna Consciousness, The Matchless Gift, Chapter 6) I am thinking that I am a man or a woman, an American or Indian, a Christian or Hindu--these are all designations pertaining to the body, and when the body is finished, they will also be finished. We are actually spirit, and therefore our spiritual activities will go with us wherever we go. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupadaRaja-Vidya: The King of Knowledge, Chapter 1) God is neither Moslem nor Hindu nor Christian--He is God. Nor are we to be considered Hindu, Moslem or Christian. These are bodily designations. We are all pure spirit, part and parcel of the Supreme. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupadaRaja-Vidya: The King of Knowledge, Chapter 2) The Sanskrit word dharma has been translated into English as "faith," but faith has come to mean a religious system that goes under the name of Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. But the word dharma does not have the same meaning as faith. The faith of an individual may change from Hindu to Buddhist to Christian to Moslem, etc.People have the ability to accept one faith and reject another, but dharma cannot be changed. It is the nature of every individual to render service, either to himself, his family, his community, nation or to humanity at large. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupadaRaja-Vidya: The King of Knowledge, Chapter 6) Because we have material bodies, we take on so many designations; thus we call ourselves a man, a parent, an American, a Christian, Hindu, etc. These designations should be abandoned if we at all want to become free. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupadaRaja-Vidya: The King of Knowledge, Chapter 6) There is a misconception that the Krsna consciousness movement represents the Hindu religion. In fact, however, Krsna consciousness is in no way a faith or religion that seeks to defeat other faiths or religions. Rather, it is an essential cultural movement for the entire human society and does not consider any particular sectarian faith. This cultural movement is especially meant to educate people in how they can love God. ("Krsna Consciousness --- Hindu Cult or Divine Culture?", The Science of Self Realization by His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) We have created Christian, Hindu, and Muhammadan religions, but when we come to a religion without designations, in which we don't think we are Hindus or Christians or Muhammadans, then we can speak of pure religion, or bhakti. ("Krsna, Christos, Christ", The Science of Self Realization by by His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) Guest (6): Then why they attracted to Hare Rama, Hare Krsna? Prabhupada: They are attracted to Krsna. These people, they are... (Hindi) But you are taking Krsna as Hindu. That is your mistake. Krsna is... Hindu ne. He is God. He is God. God Hindu ne, Mussulman ne, Christian ne, Parsi ne--God is God. (Hindi) And I am also not interested to preach Hindu dharma. (Hindi) ...Krsna dharma. Krsna consciousness, that is the only dharma. (Hindi) ...Krsna literature. It is not a Hindu dharma literature. (Room Conversation,November 7, 1970, Bombay) Please note that I have nothing against Hinduism. I only have something against the assertion that Srila Prabhupada preached Hinduism. The statements above show quite clearly that he did not.

When and where did Lord Caitanya ever used the words "Hindu" or "Hinduism? Can you quote even one scriptural reference as evidence of your claims? This is nonsense. You really should stop misrepresenting Srila Prabhupada. We have Srila Prabhupada's clear and unambigious statements on many occasions saying that Krsna Consciousness is not Hinduism. But you keep proclaiming that Srila Prabhupada was deliberately preaching "Hinduism" in the guise of Krsna Consciousness. This is very wrong. You may like Prabhupada, and that is good. But if you want to follow Prabhupada, you have to accept his instructions. He tells us that Krsna Consciousness is not Hinduism, and you may disregard that instruction, but it is most inappropriate to distort it. If you cannot accept what Prabhupada says about Hinduism, don't accept. Don't make Prabhupada say what you want him to say. That is not the way to treat a sadhu.

Student: Sria Prabhupada, one librarian wanted me to prove that Bhagavad-gita was five thousand years old. He wanted to see a copy that was written down five thousand years ago. Srila Prabhupada: Suppose I go into a dark room and say to the person inside, “The sun has risen. Come out!” The person in darkness may say, “Where is the proof that there is light? First prove it to me; then I will come out.” I may plead with him, “Please, please, just come out and see.” But if he does not come out to see, he remains ignorant, waiting for proof. So, if you simply read Bhagavad-gita you will see everything. Come and see. Here is the proof. ("Recorded on December 7, 1973, On the shores of the Pacific Ocean Near Los Angeles", Life Comes From Life by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Student: Sria Prabhupada, one librarian wanted me to prove that Bhagavad-gita was five thousand years old. He wanted to see a copy that was written down five thousand years ago. Srila Prabhupada: Suppose I go into a dark room and say to the person inside, “The sun has risen. Come out!” The person in darkness may say, “Where is the proof that there is light? First prove it to me; then I will come out.” I may plead with him, “Please, please, just come out and see.” But if he does not come out to see, he remains ignorant, waiting for proof. So, if you simply read Bhagavad-gita you will see everything. Come and see. Here is the proof. ("Recorded on December 7, 1973, On the shores of the Pacific Ocean Near Los Angeles", Life Comes From Life by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Now you are saying that Srila Prabhupada cheated his disciples.This is most offensive. Anyone who is familiar with Srila Prabhupada's mission knows that although he may have made adjustments due to time, place and circumstances, he never compromised on the philosophy. If he had wanted to cheat the hippies, he could have allowed them to go on taking marijuana and have illicit sex, but he did not. Rest assured that if Srila Prabhupada was ordered by his guru to preach "Hinduism" in the western world, he would have uncompromisingly preached Hinduism. Prabhupada was like a lion. But Prabhupada was ordered to preach Lord Caitanya's message --- Krsna Consciousness. Not Hinduism. To say that Prabhupada "diplomatically" preached Hinduism under the guise of "Krsna Consciousness" is simply misrepresenting Prabhupada's preaching. Once a reporter asked Prabhupada what his movement "How does your group differ from other Buddhists?" And Prabhupada's swift reply, which I humbly direct to your attention was: "We have nothing to do with this Hinduism or Buddhism. We are teaching the truth. And if you are truthful, you will accept it."

Yes. The name "Hindu" is a "nic name" from "outsiders". I think we both agree on that. I never implied anything like that. All I said was that devotees of Krsna are not Hindus. Krsna is above all material designations and so are His devotees. If you're attached to the designation of "Hinduism", by all means be a Hindu. I'm not saying you shouldn't. What I disagree with is people trying to associate Srila Prabhupada's movement with Hinduism when he himself said his movement is not Hindu.

The root word of the term "Vaishnava" is "Vishnu" and that name is found in Vedic literatures. The root word of the term "Hinduism" is "Hindu", which refers to the Sindhu river and that word cannot be found in Vedic literatures.

Krsna is not the exclusive property of Hindus or Indians. Krsna belongs to every living entity. Also, the very idea of Hinduism is a material designation. Can it be found in the Vedic literatures? No. Throughout the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna never mentioned the word "Hindu" or "Hinduism" even once.Still, there are people who insist on confining Krsna Consciousness to Hinduism. Srila Prabhupada mentioned on many occasions ,quite categorically, that Krsna Consciousness has nothing to do with Hinduism. If anyone thinks himself or herself a greater authority on Krsna Consciousness than Srila Prabhupada, let that person start his or her own movement, but don't use Prabhupada's name to preach ideas that Prabhupada denied. The Krishna consciousness movement has nothing to do with the Hindu religion or any system of religion. (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, "Krishna Consciousness--Hindu Cult or Divine Culture?", The Science of Self Realization)

Srila Prabhupada, also known as His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (1896-1977) is the Founder-Acarya (Spiritual Master) of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). He is the great saintl who brought the philosophy and culture of Krsna Consciousness to the west in 1965 when he arrived alone and virtually penniless in New York City and by the time he passed away in 1977, his ISKCON had already become a blooming confederation of 108 temples, schools and farming communities all over the world. He also left behind a huge library of books on Krsna Consciousness. The late ex-Beatle George Harrison was a follower of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada's writings are avaliable on the Internet. His translation and commentary on Bhagavad-gita can be accessed at www.asitis.com and his massive work Krsna --- The Supreme Personality of Godhead can be read online at www.krsnabook.com. Many of Srila Prabhupada's other books can be downloaded at http://www.hare-krishna.org There are also many websites dedicated to Srila Prabhupada and my favourite one is www.prabhupadaconnect.com. It is run by Padmapani dasa, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and the site is free from the political bickerings that some of Prabhupada's followers are inclined towards. A copy of Srila Prabhupada's letter to Gandhi can be found at that website: http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/Letters.html Although Srila Prabhupada has already left this planet, he is very much alive in the spiritual sense and continues to guide many people through his books and teachings.

I think what Srila Prabhupada is saying is that the Krsna Conscious person can use what is apparently material to appreciate Krsna, while for the non-Krsna Conscious person, the deity is just stone or wood. Ultimately, whether the person is engaged in idoltaory or not all depends on his/her consciousness, I guess.

Devotee: If someone looks at the Deity of Krsna and thinks it's only stone or wood, for him it's still material? Srila Prabhupada: That is his ignorance. How can it be material? The stone is also Krsna's energy. For example, electricity is everywhere, and the electrician knows how to utilize it. Similarly, Krsna is everywhere, even in the stone, and the devotees know how to utilize stone to appreciate Krsna. The rascals do not know. The devotee knows because he has no other view than of Krsna. Why should the stone be without Krsna? "Here is Krsna." That is real oneness. The Mayavadi philosophers propose oneness, but they divide - this is stone, this is not Krsna. Why bring another thing? Devotee: For a Krsna conscious person is Krsna as much in the stone as in the Deity? Srila Prabhupada: Yes.(Conversation, Los Angeles, May 14, 1973)

April 16, 2003 Times Online So who really did save Private Jessica? From Richard Lloyd Parry in al-Nasiriyah Doctor claims that soldiers terrorised unarmed staff THE rescue of Private Jessica Lynch, which inspired America during one of the most difficult periods of the war, was not the heroic Hollywood story told by the US military, but a staged operation that terrified patients and victimised the doctors who had struggled to save her life, according to Iraqi witnesses. Doctors at al-Nasiriyah general hospital said that the airborne assault had met no resistance and was carried out a day after all the Iraqi forces and Baath leadership had fled the city. Four doctors and two patients, one of whom was paralysed and on an intravenous drip, were bound and handcuffed as American soldiers rampaged through the wards, searching for departed members of the Saddam regime. An ambulance driver who tried to carry Private Lynch to the American forces close to the city was shot at by US troops the day before their mission. Far from winning hearts and minds, the US operation has angered and hurt doctors who risked their lives treating both Private Lynch and Iraqi victims of the war. “What the Americans say is like the story of Sinbad the Sailor — it’s a myth,” said Harith al-Houssona, who saved Private Lynch’s life after she was brought to the hospital by Iraqi military intelligence. “They said that there was no medical care in Iraq, and that there was a very strong defence of this hospital. But there was no one here apart from doctors and patients, and there was nobody to fire at them.” Dr Harith was on duty when Private Lynch was brought to al-Nasiriyah general by Iraqi soldiers a few days after her capture on March 23. She was a member of a 15-member US Army maintenance company convoy that was ambushed after taking a wrong turn near the city. At the time, she was suffering from a head injury, a broken leg and arm, a bullet wound to her leg, a pulmonary oedema and her breathing was failing. In a hospital inundated with war casualties with few drugs, her condition was stabilised and she regained consciousness. “She was very frightened when she woke up,” Dr Harith, 24, a junior resident at the hospital, said. “She kept saying: ‘Please don’t hurt me, don’t touch me.’ I told her that she was safe, she was in a hospital and that I was a doctor, and I never hurt a patient.” Private Lynch’s military guards would allow no other doctor to tend to her and Dr Harith formed a friendship with her. She talked to him about her family, including her arguments about money with her father, and about her boyfriend, a Hispanic soldier named Ruben. Dr Harith went outside the hospital during the bombing to get supplies of Private Lynch’s favourite drink, orange juice, and struggled to persuade her to eat. “I told her she needed to eat to recover, and I brought her crackers, but her stomach was upset. She said as a joke: ‘I want to be slim.’ “I see (many) patients, but she was special. She’s a very simple person, a soldier, not well-educated. But she was very, very nice, with a lovely face and blonde hair.” The Iraqi intelligence officers told the hospital that Private Lynch would soon be transferred to Baghdad, a prospect that terrified her. After her condition stabilised, they ordered Dr Harith to transfer Jessica to another hospital. Instead he told the ambulance driver to deliver her to one of the American outposts that had already been established on the ouskirts of the city. “But when he reached their checkpoint, the Americans fired at him,” he said. On April 1 the local Baathists fled al-Nasiriyah for Baghdad and arrived at the hospital looking for their prize captive. Dr Harith moved her to another part of the hospital, and other doctors told the soldiers that he was away. “They said that they thought Jessica had died, and they didn’t know where she was,” he said. In their haste and confusion the soldiers left, leaving behind only a few critically injured soldiers. The American “rescue” operation came on the night of April 2. The hospital was bombarded and soldiers arrived in helicopters and, according to the hospital doctors, in tanks that pulled up outside the hospital. Most of the doctors fled to the shelter of the radiology department on the first floor. “We heard them firing and shouting: ‘Go! Go! Go! Go!’ ” Dr Harith said. One group of soldiers dug up the graves of dead US soldiers outside the hospital, while another interrogated doctors about Ali Hassan al-Majid, the senior Baath party figure known as Chemical Ali, who had never been seen there. A third group looked for Private Lynch. US soldiers videotaped the rescue, but among the many scenes not shown to the press at US Central Command in Doha was one of four doctors who were handcuffed and interrogated, along with two civilian patients, one of whom was immobile and connected to a drip. “They were doctors, with stethoscopes round their necks,” Dr Harith said. “Even in war, a doctor should not be treated like that.” Unluckiest of all was Abdul Razaq, one of the hospital administrators, who took shelter from the bombardment in Private Lynch’s room, believing that he would be safe. He was seized and taken with the US soldiers on their helicopter to their base, where he was held for three days in an open-air prison camp. “When he left his skin was the colour of yours,” another doctor, Mahmud, said. “When he came back, he was black.” Bizarrely, the rescuers cut open a special bed, designed for patients with bed sores, which had been provided for Private Lynch’s use. “They took samples of sand out of it,” Dr Harith said. “It was the only bed like it that we have, the only one in the governorate.” Today, the hospital struggles on without adequate supplies of drugs and without running water or mains electricity. “There are two faces to Americans,” Dr Harith said. “One is freedom and democracy, and giving kids sweets. The other is killing and hating my people. So I am very confused. I feel sad because I will never see Jessica again, and I feel happy because she is happy and has gone back to her life. If I could speak to her I would say: ‘Congratulations!’”

Srila Prabhupada did touch on this issue of his accepting many disciples in one of his books. It seems clear that Prabhupada accepted some of his disciples in full knowledge that they were (in his own words) "nonsense". Syamasundara: One time you said that sometimes you feel sickness or pain due to the sinful activities of your devotees. Can sometimes disease be due to that? Caused by that? Srila Prabhupada: You see, Krsna says: aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah "I will deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." So Krsna is so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others and immediately make them right. But when a living entity plays the part on behalf of Krsna, he also takes the responsibility for the sinful activities of his devotees. Therefore to become a guru is not an easy task. You see? He has to take all the poisons and absorb them. So sometimes--because he is not Krsna--sometimes there is some trouble. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has forbidden, "Don't make many sisyas, many disciples." But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples--for expanding preaching--even if we suffer. That's a fact. The spiritual master has to take the responsibility for all the sinful activities of his disciples. Therefore to make many disciples is a risky job unless one is able to assimilate all the sins. vancha-kalpa-tarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eva ca patitanam pavanebhyo vaisnavebhyo namo namah ["I offer my respectful obeisances unto all the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord. They are just like desire trees who can fulfill the desires of everyone, and they are full of compassion for the fallen conditioned souls."] He takes responsibility for all the fallen souls. That idea is also in the Bible. Jesus Christ took all the sinful reactions of the people and sacrificed his life. That is the responsibility of a spiritual master. Because Krsna is Krsna, He is apapa-viddha--He cannot be attacked by sinful reactions. But a living entity is sometimes subjected to their influence because he is so small. Big fire, small fire. If you put some big thing in a small fire, the fire itself may be extinguished. But in a big fire, whatever you put in is all right. The big fire can consume anything. Bob: Christ's suffering was of that nature? Srila Prabhupada: Mm-m? Bob: Was Christ's suffering-- Srila Prabhupada: That I have already explained. He took the sinful reactions of all the people. Therefore he suffered. Bob: I see. Srila Prabhupada: He said--that is in the Bible--that he took all the sinful reactions of the people and sacrificed his life. But these Christian people have made it a law for Christ to suffer while they do all nonsense. [bob gives a short laugh.] Such great fools they are! They have let Jesus Christ make a contract for taking all their sinful reactions so they can go on with all nonsense. That is their religion. Christ was so magnanimous that he took all their sins and suffered, but that does not induce them to stop all these sins. They have not come to that sense. They have taken it very easily. "Let Lord Jesus Christ suffer, and we'll do all nonsense." Is it not? Bob: It is so. Srila Prabhupada: They should have been ashamed: "Lord Jesus Christ suffered for us, but we are continuing the sinful activities." He told everyone, "Thou shalt not kill," but they are indulging in killing, thinking, "Lord Jesus Christ will excuse us and take all the sinful reactions." This is going on. We should be very much cautious: "For my sinful actions my spiritual master will suffer, so I'll not commit even a pinch of sinful activities." That is the duty of the disciple. After initiation, all sinful reaction is finished. Now if he again commits sinful activities, his spiritual master has to suffer. A disciple should be sympathetic and consider this. "For my sinful activities, my spiritual master will suffer." If the spiritual master is attacked by some disease, it is due to the sinful activities of others. "Don't make many disciples." But we do it because we are preaching. Never mind--let us suffer--still we shall accept them. Therefore your question was--when I suffer is it due to my past misdeeds? Was it not? That is my misdeed--that I accepted some disciples who are nonsense. That is my misdeed. Bob: This happens on occasions? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. This is sure to happen because we are accepting so many men. It is the duty of the disciples to be cautious. "My spiritual master has saved me. I should not put him again into suffering." When the spiritual master is in suffering, Krsna saves him. Krsna thinks, "Oh, he has taken so much responsibility for delivering a fallen person." So Krsna is there. kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati ["O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes."] Because the spiritual master takes the risk on account of Krsna. Bob: Your suffering is not the same kind of pain... Srila Prabhupada: No, it is not due to karma. The pain is there sometimes, so that the disciples may know, "Due to our sinful activities, our spiritual master is suffering." Bob: You look very well now. Srila Prabhupada: I am always well... in the sense that even if there is suffering, I know Krsna will protect me. But this suffering is not due to my sinful activities. (Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers by His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Chapter 6)

The government seems to be doing a competent job of containing the virus and tracing and isolating those infected. I read in the newspapers yesterday that a SARS test deviced by Singaporean doctors will be avaliable by the end of the week.

Dear Theist: As I am currently preparing for my University exams, I probably won't have much time to engage in further discussions on this matter. But still, I like to leave a concluding message. The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. (Martin Luther King, Jr.) Up to half a year ago, I would have dismissed the above words as a load of pacifist drivel and sentimentalism. Like you, I was a devotee of the pre-emptive strike doctrine --- let's take them out before they get to us, we live in the real world, etc. But this war has changed my mind a little. This war has made me realize that the guys taking out the bad guys are not necessarily good guys themselves. 24 million Iraqis free? Maybe next time. For now, it's simply Iraq being seized from one power by a superpower. And with the US military announcing that they would start production in the oilfields near the Southern Iraqi town of Basra (without consulting any of the Iraqis and in clear violation of the Geneva War Convention which explicitly forbids the exploitation of national resources of a conquered country by the conqueror) it is increasingly clear that the US initiated this war for anything but altruistic motives. This war has made me realize that superior firepower can never stop people from hating and inflicting hate crimes and that an ideology based on violence can never bring out real peace. You may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. Has the world become a safer place now that Saddam is no longer in power? Has the war eradicated the hateful impulses behind terrorism? Has it eliminated fanaticism? Or has it, as I suspect, only managed to inflame the flames of hatred and anti-Amercian sentiments? Darkness cannot drive out darkness. All this does not mean I have become a peacenik. I still believe in qualified violence. I still believe that every country has the right to take up arms to defend itself. But there is a vast difference between safeguarding one's own home and tearing up the entire neighbourhood to shoot at and ransack the homes of neighbours perceived as a threat, in defiance of the governement --- in this case, the United Nations. One wonders whether the spritual master of George W Bush --- Jesus Christ --- would go along with the Bush Doctrine. This is the age of quarrel and hypocrisy. This world is full of danger at every step. As Srila Prabhupada said to a reporter during a period of tension between Pakistan and India: But suppose Yahya Khan does not kill you? Will you be safe? Then what is the use to go to Yahya Khan? You will die today or tomorrow. If you want to save yourself, then go to Krsna. That is our proposition. Even if you go to Yahya Khan, and he does not fight, then you mean to say that you will live forever? What is the use of flattering Yahya Khan? Flatter Krsna, so that you may be saved perpetually. Why don't you do that? If Srila Prabhupada were here today, he might very well ask: "But suppose Saddam Hussein does not kill you? Will you be safe?" Instead of aligning ourselves with those with materialistic agendas, we should align ourselves with Krsna. The real solution to our problems is not terrorism,suicide bombing,the Bush Doctrine, etc. It is Krsna Consciousness. Any solution which is on the material platform is doomed to failure. Let us try to remember this.

Theist: I would have done exactly the same thing as what the US did to the Soviet Union --- containment through a combination of balance of power politics, diplomacy and the deterrence of Mutually Assured Destruction. The Soviets and the US never fought a "hot" war. That says a lot for the success of containment. The Soviets posed a greater threat to the US then Saddam ever did. The Soviets had weapons of mass destruction aimed squarely at the US. The aim of the Soviets was world domination under Communism and the overthrow of capitalism in US and all over the world. If the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive strikes had been unleashed on the Soviets, what do you think would have happened? If containment could be used on the Soviet Union, why couldn't it have been used on a tin pot dictator like Saddam Hussein?

When it is certain that facts will only be consistently met with sentiment, there is no point in carrying on a dialogue. History will have the last word. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And speaking of Colin Powell, it was reported that he once responded to a question about how many Iraqis were killed during the first Gulf War with a casual: "It's really not a number that I'm terribly interested in." (New York Times, January 24, 1991, quoted in Rogue State --- A Guide to the World's Only Superpower by William Blum.

20 million Iraqis free? Really? Then why has the Bush Administration started to hand out contracts for rebuilding Iraq? Did they bother to consult the 20 million Iraqis about deciding who will renovate their war torn country? Already, US Secretary of State Colin Powell has stated that the coalition countries should be the dominant force in rebuilding Iraq after the war. Did he consult the 20 million on that matter? You talk about freedom, but it is clear that like Rumsfeld, you have a novel concept of freedom. The fact of the matter is that Iraq has simply been seized from one power by a bigger power. Freedom? Only time will tell. But certainly not now.

You respect the rights of the Iraqis are free to loot, but not my right to make criticism. Why the double standard? And my comments weren't directed at the looting. They were directed at the intelligence level of the man who can claim that "free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things." 20 million Iraqis free? Really? Then why has the Bush Administration started to hand out contracts for rebuilding Iraq? Did they bother to consult the 20 million Iraqis about deciding who will renovate their war torn country? Already, US Secretary of State Colin Powell has stated that the coalition countries should be the dominant force in rebuilding Iraq after the war. Did he consult the 20 million on that matter? You talk about freedom, but it is clear that like Rumsfeld, you have a strange concept of freedom. The fact of the matter is that Iraq has simply been seized from one power by a bigger power. Freedom? Only time will tell. But certainly not now.