Sonic Yogi

 

It appears that they have already deleted a very hateful comment by Sonic Yogi in which he basically called mAdhva brAhmanas the "greatest evil" of the world. .

Obviously, you don't pay much attention because that statement came from a quote by a Gaudiya acharya Bhaktivinode Thakur.

It was nothing of my invention.

"It is evident that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu belonged to the Brahma sampradaya, as it descends through Madhvacarya. Kavi Karnapura confirmed this line of disciplic succession in his Gaura Ganodesa-dipika, and the writer of the commentary of the Vedanta, Sri Baldeva Vidyabhusana, did so again (in his Prameya Ratnavali).

Is there any doubt that those who do not accept this line of disciplic succession are the principle enemies of the followers of Sri Krsna Caitanya?" (Bhaktivinoda Thakura - Sri Mahaprabhur-siksa, Ch.2)

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Try to understand this Gauragopal:

TLC ch.31

Kṛṣṇa has immense energetic expansions. Three energies are predominant: the internal energy, external energy and marginal energy. This is confirmed in the Sixth Chapter of Viṣṇu Purāṇa where it is said that Viṣṇu has one energy, which is called spiritual energy, and it is manifested in three ways. When spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance, it is called marginal energy. As far as spiritual energy itself is concerned, it is exhibited in three forms because Kṛṣṇa is a combination of eternity, bliss and knowledge. As far as His bliss is concerned, His spiritual energy is manifested as the pleasure giving potency. His eternity is manifested as energy, and His knowledge is manifested as spiritual perfection. As confirmed in Viṣṇu Purāṇa (1.12.69): "The pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa gives Kṛṣṇa transcendental pleasure and bliss." Thus when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy pleasure, He exhibits His own spiritual potency known as hlādinī.

Try to understand that the jiva is marginal energy only when he is overwhelmed by ignorance.

The jivas in the spiritual world are not overwhelmed by ignorance.

In fact there is no chance they can be because ignorance does not exist in the spiritual world.

There is NO marginal energy in the spiritual world which is all internal energy.

Well, this is Gauragopal's self-appointed war against the Gaudiya Math to try and prove that Sridhar Maharaja and the rest of the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada were all mayavadis because they say the jivas come from the brahmajyoti.

It's the same old tired campaign he has been on for years and seems to be the only topic he is interested it.

He just can't accept that his "new bhakta" concept of Dreamervad and Fallavad might just be a fable that Prabhupada used to explain things that he knew were too complicated for pea-brained people to grasp.

When you have some pea brain asking a very complex question it is generally more practical just to tell some metaphorical example rather than get into a deep shastric dissertation that will just fly over the head of the pea brain.

Therefore, the ISKCON myths were born.

CC Adi 2.103 purport:

The internal potency of the Lord, which is called cit-śakti or antarańga-śakti, exhibits variegatedness in the transcendental Vaikuṇṭha cosmos. Besides ourselves, there are unlimited numbers of liberated living beings who associate with the Personality of Godhead in His innumerable features.

CC 2.96. purport:

These three energies of the Absolute Truth are also described in the Visnu Purana, where it is said that the living being is equal in quality to the internal potency, whereas the external potency is indirectly controlled by the chief cause of all causes.

CC Adi 2.96 purport

Although all three potencies — namely internal, external and marginal — are essentially one in the ultimate issue, they are different in action, like electric energy, which can produce both cold and heat under different conditions. The external and marginal potencies are so called under various conditions, but in the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions, nor is it possible for the conditions of the external potency to exist in the marginal, or vice versa.

In the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions as marginal or external.

In the spiritual world there is no marginal or external energy.

Upon liberation the jiva enters into the internal energy.

There are no marginal energies on the spiritual planets.

All the energies there are internal.

Let's face facts. It's obvious that Raghu is right, and that hurts iskconites. But I do understand why Prabupada did what he did, that is, making brahmanas out of non-brahmanas. It's to attract more westerners into his fold. Let's leave it at that, and not make excuses.

Let's face facts you guys don't know what you are talking about.

You keep trying to say this is some ISKCON invention when in fact there are families in Bengal that have been doing it for the last 400 years.

There are many Vaisnava families in Bengal whose members, although not actually born brahmanas, act as acaryas by initiating disciples and offering the sacred thread as enjoined in the Vaisnava tantras. For example, in the families of Thakura Raghunandana Acarya, Thakura Krsnadasa, Navani Hoda and Rasikananda-deva (a disciple of Syamananda Prabhu), the sacred thread ceremony is performed, as it is for the caste Gosvamis, and this system has continued for the past three to four hundred years. Accepting disciples born in brahmana families, they are bona fide spiritual masters who have the facility to worship the salagrama-sila, which is worshiped with the Deity.

One thing that could be cool was sending a space ship to the moon with the top of spiritual capacities to communicate with the enities

they would have to go with a six-pack of Soma rasa to get the attention of the Moon people.

False humility is very nice and good, but perhaps you should spend some time reviewing the evidence before stating the conclusion..

Are you that embarrassed that a lay member of the Gaudiya community can defeat you that you have to resort to such insults?

 

 

This is a gaudiya Vaishnava view. As far as mAdhvas are concerned, the guru-paramparA begins with Sri Vedavyasa.

 

Maharaja, this is so lame.

Are you saying that Vyasa has no guru and no sampradaya?

I thought you could come up with something more Vedic than that.

Even Rama and Krishna had a guru, but Vyasa did not?

Please don't discredit the Madhva sampradaya with such foolishness.

Your view that anyone can become a brAhmana without the requisite birth is not supported by any mainstream scripture. But, as always, I will change my view if you can provide explicit evidence to the contrary.

I will try to provide you with some Vedic shastric reference when I can find the time.

I don't have all these things hanging on the tip of my tongue.

I have to go back to shastra and do some digging.

I am no big guru, teacher or acharya.

I am just a lay person.

I have been a student of Gaudiya Vaishnavism for about 38 years of my 55 years.

Yet, I remain a student who has had his share of diversions.

I will try to do some research and provide you with the some Gaudiya siddhanta on these issues.

But, for tonight I have some other issues I must attend to.

I just wish that there were a more qualified person than myself that was on this forum and could deal with your very intelligent and sincere inquiries.

I am not so qualified to discuss these things with an intelligent and astute person as your good self.

In time.

But, I will have to do some work on the issue and I am not very partial to work.

Sonic Yogi,

I think Raghu's points are these (And Raghu can correct me if I went wrong):

1. Gaudiyas claim they have a disciple succession from Sri Madhvacharya
   
2. Gaudiyas treatment of scriptures have far deviated from Sri Madhvacharya's expositions
   
3. The Gaudiyas have formed their own sampradaya
   
4. However, they claim they have Sri Madhvacharya's sanction for their works
   
5. Which is not true.

Sonic Yogi, lets say for example I was your disciple and learnt the shastras from you. But today I have a completely different view that contradicts some of your original teachings. Can I preach and author books claiming my views were derived from you?

Here is my reply.

Can the Madhva sampradaya prove that Madhvacharya stayed fully in accord with the disciplic siddhanta as comes down through his guru Srila Vyasadeva?

Did Vyasadeva himself not explain the Srimad Bhagavat was his commentary on Brahma-sutras?

Is not Madhva himself in the Brahma sampradaya?

What are the exact tenents of Lord Brahma who is the direct disciple of Lord Krishna?

Can the Madhvas say with absolute certainty that the conclusions of Madhvacharya are in absolute accord with the Vedic siddhanta as propounded by Lord Brahma who is the direct disciple of Lord Krishna?

So, the Gaudiyas actually are more in tune to the Brahma sampradaya than the Madhva sampradaya which is itself a modified version of the Brahma sampradaya and the conclusions propounded by Lord Brahma in Brahma-samhita and Srimad Bhagavat.

So, it is actually the Madhvas who are somewhat in variance to the Brahma sampradaya, not the Gaudiyas.

The Gaudiya sampradaya picks up the sampradaya from Madhva and restores it to it's most pristine form as actually descending from Lord Brahma.

The Gaudiyas do not have to be in strict accord with Madhva to be in his sampradaya inasmuch as Madhva himself was at variance with the Brahma sampradaya as it is understood by the siddhanta that Lord Brahma propounds in shastra.

The Gaudiya siddhanta is strictly in accord with the Vedic siddhanta as propouded by Lord Brahma in shastra.

As such they have every right to converge with the Madhva sampradaya and restore the Vedic siddhanta to it's original form as came down to Lord Brahma from Lord Krishna.

It is the Brahma sampradaya connection of the Madhva sampradaya that is most important to the Gaudiyas, more so than the Madhva component.

"It is evident that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu belonged to the Brahma sampradaya, as it descends through Madhvacarya. Kavi Karnapura confirmed this line of disciplic succession in his Gaura Ganodesa-dipika, and the writer of the commentary of the Vedanta, Sri Baldeva Vidyabhusana, did so again (in his Prameya Ratnavali).

Is there any doubt that those who do not accept this line of disciplic succession are the principle enemies of the followers of Sri Krsna Caitanya?" (Bhaktivinoda Thakura - Sri Mahaprabhur-siksa, Ch.2)

For a maadhva, the initiation takes place at a young age during the thread ceremony. You wouldn't know that because this is not documented in a government office or published in the internet. There is no public announcement because it is part of the tradition.

 

Traditionally, anyone that comes out to be an authority of a sampradaya will show his spiritual link via the current link or acharya of the sampradaya.

In all the sampradayas of India the teachers and gurus always clearly list their guru and when they were initiated.

It just very odd than someone appearing as an authority of the Madhva sampradaya is showing no connection to the parampara system.

One of the posters earlier made a comment about the supposed "narrow-mindedness" of mAdhva Vaishnavas because they only offer brahminical intiation to brahmanas (which is fully in keeping with the Vedic tradition).

But, it doesn't keep with Vedic siddhanta.

There are many cultural traditions in India that get passed off as "Vedic" when in fact they are just traditions based on certain interpretations which in fact do not reflect the actual Vedic siddhanta.

Caste by birth has been specifically rejected in shastra for the age of Kali.

Shastra says that in Kali-yuga all are born sudra, even Professor Sharma.

One becomes dwija by diksha from a proper Vaishnava.

Prof B.N.K.Sharma is a maadhva by birth and tradition.

Yeah, I know.

The Gaudiya acharyas have explained that the Madhvas practice hereditary principles of caste.

The Gaudiyas do not accept hereditary caste system.

That is the bigoted caste system that kept India in chains for hundreds of years until the Gaudiya acharyas broke the monopoly and proved that caste should never be determined by birth.

I have not been able to find any evidence that Professor Sharma was ever initiated into the Madhva sampradaya.

Apart from his family tradition he is not showing diksha by any Madhva guru or acharya.

He is a professional man, not a guru.

Um, you have no formal initiation into the MAdhva sampradaya. By your logic, that would invalidate any claim you make about Madhva as well.

Well, why don't you if you are so smart?

Sonic Yogi, Theist, et. al.

 

A complete listing of Sri Madhva's works can be found at http://www.dvaita.org/madhva/AnandaT_5.html

 

 

This list is largely from "History of the Dvaita School of Vedanta and its Literature," by Dr. B. N. K. Sharma, Motilal Banarsidass, New Delhi, 1981.

Dr. B.N.K. Sharma was a Professor and Head of the Department of Sanskrit in the newly founded Ruparel College of the Modern Education Society of Pune in 1953. He is the recipient of many prestigious awards.Today with over a dozen publications of outstanding merit in lucid English, Dr. Sharma has verily established the highest record of the present century in his chosen field with his latest English rendering of the Samanvayadhyaya of Jayatirtha's Nyayasudha.

Professor Sharma is a self-appointed authority who shows no formal initiation into the Madhva sampradaya.

He has approached these subjects as a scholar more so than as a devotee.

We cannot trust the work of Professor Sharma as he does not even show to be in the lineage of the Madhva sampradaya.

He is a self-appointed authority with no proper right to pose an an authority on the Madhva sampradaya.

His is a professional who makes his living publishing books and teaching Sanskrit.

His Sanskrit scholarship does not qualify him to represent the Madhva sampradaya.

Sri Madhva never wrote a book called "Sri Tattva Muktavali." Please again reference the *complete* listing of his authored works at http://www.dvaita.org/madhva/AnandaT_5.html

The books was written under the name Gaudapurnananda.

Some Madhavas consider him different than Madhvacharya, but Madhvacarya was also known as Gaudapurnananda.

The Gaudiyas consider the Gaudapurnananda of Sri Tattva Muktavali to be the same as Madhva, though such a view is not accepted by some Madhva scholars.