suryaz

“you shouldn't have insulted me” That was not my intention – please forgive my lack of clarity. According to Krsna in the BG the material energy is his “divine energy”. I just think far too often some delegate it as something “other”. He calls it His “divine energy” and we should respect it as that.

Love and Understanding - yes without understanding there is not love

Ouh! - I feel sad too

Are atomic particles not His? Are such not of Him? Humm ‘distortion’???? I think this ‘distortion’ you speak of belongs to your vision

"Protium is better known as hydrogen, which is made up of one proton and one encircling electron. Hydrogen, in evolutionary physics, is the atomic emergent: the primal chemical entity. Subsequent elements created by the natural fusion process are thereby derived from hydrogen. H2 is the molecular emergent." http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_edu/ser_post-sciedu.html This need not necessarily contradict with creation theorists – It may just be another way of looking at creation

I know what choice is - but - Temptation? What is it? Is it not something born of personal deception – the shifting of the blame/inadequacies/human frailty etc onto another to justify/deny such? [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-29-2001).]

...If emotions and artistry are indeed connected...??????????? Humm The hydrogen atom – the greatest artist of all. What emotion does the hydrogen atom have? [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-29-2001).]

“One Indian was admitted to the ICS (Indian Civil Service) in 1864, three more in 1871” (Copland 1941:38). “One Indian” + “ICS in 1864”? Was it Bhaktivinoda who was the first Indian to enter the ICS? [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-27-2001).]

My pleasure

Also my bad memory - This should have read Most record Mahaprabhu's earthly display as 1486-1533 AD However in Ling (1968) "A history of religion east and west" the recorded appearance date is 1485.

"Madhav Patnaik's 'Vaishnava Leelamrita'. we find the earliest reference to the death of Chaitanya since it was written in the year 1525 A.D" Humm 1525 AD?? Most record Mahaprabhu's earthly display as 1486-1532 AD

When I was last in Puri (1986), I came across a temple wherein there was a deity of Krsna who had a crack in his foot. The pujari told me that Mahapraabhu merged into this deity, through the crack in the foot of the deity, at the time of his disappearance. I wonder if this is a sublimation of the account given in the "Vaishnava Leelamrita” (Madhav Patnaik) manuscript. [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-22-2001).] [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-22-2001).]

Humm Yeah - I too miss Jagat's input here

Talasiga, Janus and all in correlation to the above this "Study of Evidence in Christianity (Powell 1860) is so cool – http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/1860-essays-reviews/scanned-images/096.jpg

Don - Who said that?

Don - Who said that?

Thanks, Talasiga Yes it is true, the "big picture" is important in the history of religious traditions [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-20-2001).]

Yes you are right Jndas - Prabhupada makes reference to both "Aryan-family" members (eg fair skinned people) and those who become Aryan by cultural conditioning. It is also interesting to note what he mentions about other races as well – all of whom can become “first-class” cultural members “with the proper training” even if they do not have the shastricly defined “skin” colour (eg brahamanas). The examples are as follows: TEXT kaka-krsno 'tihrasvango hrasva-bahur maha-hanuh hrasva-pan nimna-nasagro raktaksas tamra-murdhajah TRANSLATION This person born from King Vena's thighs was named Bahuka, and his complexion was as black as a crow's. All the limbs of his body were very short, his arms and legs were short, and his jaws were large. His nose was flat, his eyes were reddish, and his hair copper-colored. TEXT 45 TEXT tam tu te 'vanatam dinam kim karomiti vadinam nisidety abruvams tata sa nisadas tato 'bhavat TRANSLATION He was very submissive and meek, and immediately after his birth he bowed down and inquired, "Sirs, what shall I do?" The great sages replied, "Please sit down [nisida]." Thus Nisada, the father of the Naisada race, was born. PURPORT It is said in the sastras that the head of the body represents the brahmanas, the arms represent the ksatriyas, the abdomen represents the vaisyas, and the legs, beginning with the thighs, represent the sudras. The sudras are sometimes called black, or krsna. The brahmanas are called sukla, or white, and the ksatriyas and the vaisyas are a mixture of black and white. However, those who are extraordinarily white are said to have skin produced out of white leprosy. It may be concluded that white or a golden hue is the color of the higher caste, and black is the complexion of the sudras. TEXT 46 TEXT tasya vamsyas tu naisada giri-kanana-gocarah yenaharaj jayamano vena-kalmasam ulbanam TRANSLATION After his [Nisada's] birth, he immediately took charge of all the resultant actions of King Vena's sinful activities. As such, this Naisada class are always engaged in sinful activities like stealing, plundering and hunting. Consequently they are only allowed to live in the hills and forests. PURPORT The Naisadas are not allowed to live in cities and towns because they are sinful by nature. As such, their bodies are very ugly, and their occupations are also sinful. We should, however, know that even these sinful men (who are sometimes called Kiratas) can be delivered from their sinful condition to the topmost Vaisnava platform by the mercy of a pure devotee. Engagement in the transcendental loving devotional service of the Lord can make anyone, however sinful he may be, fit to return home, back to Godhead. One has only to become free from all contamination by the process of devotional service. In this way everyone can become fit to return home, back to Godhead. This is confirmed by the Lord Himself in Bhagavad-gita (9.32): mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te 'pi yanti param gatim "O son of Prtha, those who take shelter of Me, though they be of lower birth--women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]--can approach the supreme destination." Thus end the Bhaktivedanta purports of the Fourth Canto, Fourteenth Chapter, of the Srimad-Bhagavatam, entitled "The Story of King Vena."

hummm Ooops - this post was the same as the post above - I must have really wanted to say that [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-20-2001).]

Janus What makes you believe "relevant inquiry" is "better" when a "submissive" component is present? What is wrong with impartial, reasonable, unbiased and/or objective relevant inquiry? Why promote as “better” a behaviour that when promoted functions to, and/or leaves room for the dis-empowerment of another. [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-20-2001).]

Jndas, what makes you so sure Bhaktivinoda's aim was this? [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-20-2001).]

According to Prabhupada whites are Aryans. I was sitting no more than 2 metres away from him when he said it. According to Bhaktivinoda “the Aryans first entered India from the North West and subjugated the indigenous tribes around 4463 B.C. ..." (Shukavac). So what of the Dravidians? What of the following Padma Puranic view “…Padma Puraa.na points to a southern origin for bhakti, and provides a clue to the geographical location of some Puraa.nic traditions as well” (Demmitt & van Buitenen 1978:11). “ ‘Bhakti was born in Draavidha, grew up in Kar.naataka, became worn out in MaharaaS.tra and Gurjera, sought refuge with her two sons Knowledge and Dispassion in Vrindavana, and regained her vigor there… Enough of vows, sacred fords, disciples, sacrifices, discourse about knowledge, faith alone bestows release!(Padma 6.189.51; 190.22)’” (Demmitt & van Buitenen 1978:11). [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-19-2001).]

Europeans called all brown skinned peoples Indians. The term did not identify a nationality. In fact when the word Indians was first used this way, the French revolution had not happened and nationalism did not exist. As such South American as with North American natives were described as Indian. Australian Aboriginals etc. etc. were initially described as Indians. [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-19-2001).]

So Jndas is it your premise that the landmass that is today called "India" originally belonged to the whites, Ooops - the Aryans? If so what of the Dravidians? How, why and when did they arrive in “India”? But remember: “…Padma Puraa.na points to a southern origin for bhakti, and provides a clue to the geographical location of some Puraa.nic traditions as well” (Demmitt & van Buitenen 1978:11). “ ‘Bhakti was born in Draavidha, grew up in Kar.naataka, became worn out in MaharaaS.tra and Gurjera, sought refuge with her two sons Knowledge and Dispassion in Vrindavana, and regained her vigor there… Enough of vows, sacred fords, disciples, sacrifices, discourse about knowledge, faith alone bestows release!(Padma 6.189.51; 190.22)’” (Demmitt & van Buitenen 1978:11). [This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 11-19-2001).]

No there is no "India" as such pre 1947. There was the land mass but it was not technically call “India” although it was in short often referred to as India. What we call India today, that was part of a bunch of British colonies on the Indian or Asian - sub-continent for a while. Before that it was a landmass of separate Hindu kingdoms until the Muslims came Yes you are right Gaurachandra, - in the Bhagavat it is referred to a Bharat-vas